Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

[ace of hearts]

This is my first post, but I have been reading for a long time and would first like to express my thanks and respect to all those from whom I have been learning on the forums.

My best bolt gun is currently a rem. police model .308, and I have been really lucky with it since, straight off the shelf, it will usually shoot ½ moa. I have been hesitant to upgrade since even the best custom guys wont guarantee much better accuracy than this, and it would hurt to buy a $7k AI that did not shoot any better than the $700 rem. I have nevertheless, decided to buy her a companion. I am researching AI, DTA, Gap and Surgeon; before you tell me to use the search button let me just say that I have already done so and here is a brief synopsis of the common responses…

Response #
1. “Learn to use the search button” (see above)
2. “They are 6 to ½ dozen “
3. “All will shoot better than you”
4. “It is the Indian not the arrow”
5. “You need to get behind them.” (great advice but don’t know anyone who has one)
6. “Bullpups are great and you can change the caliber”
7. “Bullpups suck, I don’t like the bolt throw, its hard to maintain cheekweld etc.”
8. “I Quit shooting my other rifles after I discovered DTA SRS.”
9. “I have a gap, it shoots great, they are the best.”
10. “I have an AI, it shoots great, they are the best.”
11. “ I have a …”
12. “You can run over an AI with a truck and it will still shoot ½ moa. If your AI has a USO on it then it can not be broken with any existing technology.”
13. The most productive response… “I have owned multiple versions of each but to be politically correct pm me so I can give you my opinion without offending George, Preston, Nick or the Country of England” (I would love to hear from you if you are in this category)

Forgive my humor, so the serious question…

These are all great rifles, if you currently own one, you are lucky and I am jealous. If we focus on extreme accuracy under controlled bench rest or prone conditions as my differentiating factor (all are more than accurate enough for practical/tactical shooting and all are tough enough for my uses) then please rank in order which rifle you think has the best chance to provide those tiny, one hole, ¼ moa or better groups?
It would be great if you mention which you have owned if you are ranking. My current impression is that many feel AI is the most durable, but the customs may have slightly better accuracy; what do you think? Caliber will be one of the 6.5s.

Rank these according to accuracy:

Gap bolt action of choice (I already have a G 10 on order

)
Surgeon
AI AX
DTA

Thanks to all who contribute and thanks again for the great forum.

 

[jake6547]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Well you need to find out what stock fits you before you make this decision. I personally think that Is your most important part of choosing the rifle you want. All the rifles listed above will shoot as good as you need them to, my personal experience being with GAP, surgeon, and factory AI.

 

[jake6547]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Also keep it in mind that you feel A factory AICS stock and don't like it (like me) you can git skin upgrades that are amazing from victor company. Back to the point though, you need to find a way to feel a few different stocks so you can make your decision.

 

[ace of hearts]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Thanks jake, I hear you, set up and fit are key. Do you feel then, as someone who has owned several, that the accuracy potential between these rifles is negligible assuming the fit is good?

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Great components help you build a great rifle! Pick a crappy component or someone who cannot build you a great rifle and you end up with a boat anchor!

The actions/rifles listed will all build a great gun! It's more personal preference as to what you like and don't like.

Take a look at GAP who is building your rifle for starters!

Plenty of GAP built rifles on Rem.700's actions, Surgeon actions, Badger M2008 actions, rebarreled AI guns, and all of the guns are great shooters as most will agree.

The DTA Mark Gordon at Short Action Custom is probably the best guy to go to for work on those. I don't know to what extent GAP works on the DTA's at all.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Chiller]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

You are effectively discussing rifle smiths. GAP and Surgeon are at or near the top of the food chain in this respective discipline and in all probability you will NEVER shoot the difference if there is any. DTA and AI are also at or near the top of their respective food chain being a "go to war" production rifle. If you want the best of all worlds. Buy a AIAX and have GAP spin you up some barrels. This is all based on the assumption that the AIAX fits you well and you like the AI Trigger. I personally own or have owned all of the rifles you mention and if I can ONLY own one that is how I would do it again. In that I can own chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry I have options.

One day a KMW, Beanland, Tac Ops (maybe) and Gradous will also be in my stable

 

[Mike]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Let me summarize your original post.

"I've researched this topic and wasn't satisfied with the exact same opinion-based answers I'll receive here so I'm going to ask everyone to give me the same opinions they've given in the hundreds of other threads on this exact same topic."

Make your decision based off YOUR criterion. Get a stock that fits, and use YOUR opinion of what's important to YOU and choose a smith/platform/etc. based off of that. Everyone's opinion, including mine, isn't going to help you in the slightest if our opinions are not archetype to each other.

 

[Km22]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Are you willing to consider a tac ops build? Or just those choices? Accuracy wise, I'd say gap/surgeon will be the most accurate of those choices. That being said, if I could only have one... I'd go with an AI

 

[ace of hearts]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Ahh, the first hostile response. My intent was to focus the discussion a bit. There are many valid reasons one person my prefer one of these rifles over another, the ergonomics of a bullpup for instance or the ability to easily change a barrel/caliber. The AI champions sing about its repeatably under adverse conditions. I would like some input on the relative accuracy of these rifles. I know they all shoot well and guarantee 1/2 moa; I would appreciate some input about which ones are likely to shoot a little better than that.

 

[ZLBubba]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are effectively discussing rifle smiths. GAP and Surgeon are at or near the top of the food chain in this respective discipline and in all probability you will NEVER shoot the difference if there is any. DTA and AI are also at or near the top of their respective food chain being a "go to war" production rifle. If you want the best of all worlds. Buy a AIAX and have GAP spin you up some barrels. This is all based on the assumption that the AIAX fits you well and you like the AI Trigger. I personally own or have owned all of the rifles you mention and if I can ONLY own one that is how I would do it again. In that I can own chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry I have options.

One day a KMW, Beanland, Tac Ops (maybe) and Gradous will also be in my stable
</div></div>

Great answer^. I'd also argue that reading all the different answers is much less important than making local friends who are in the Hide and get some time behind their rifles. The information on this site is unparalleled, but the network of serious shooters is even better. Fill out your profile, make some friends, and shoot those rifles before you spend somewhere between $4-8k.

 

[ace of hearts]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

I don't know as much about Tac Ops, but thanks for the recommendation. Their 1/4 moa guarantee is intriguing. Until recently I thought that they preferred to only build .308s which is not what I am after, however I did recently see a post about a Tac Ops in another caliber so maybe I should look into them. I also had the impression that they are extremely hard to get a hold of.

 

[Mike]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ace of hearts</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ahh, the first hostile response. My intent was to focus the discussion a bit. There are many valid reasons one person my prefer one of these rifles over another, the ergonomics of a bullpup for instance or the ability to easily change a barrel/caliber. The AI champions sing about its repeatably under adverse conditions. I would like some input on the relative accuracy of these rifles. I know they all shoot well and guarantee 1/2 moa; I would appreciate some input about which ones are likely to shoot a little better than that.</div></div>

Ah, the first "I did not get the answer I wanted so I'm going to ask again". Let me tell you like I tell my little children "put on your listening ears". You are asking for tangible evidence that does not exist. None of these rifles are more accurate than the other. Guarantees on accuracy is a marketing ploy And nothing more. Go back to what was said earlier, which included all of the items that are previously mentioned and that is what specific details and features that are important to YOU. If you're not shooting in the Arctic or the Canadian tundra where it's freezing cold all the time then maybe they AW is not for you. You are not going to get a anything but opinion when it comes to these different rifles, smiths, their shooting characteristics, their performances, etc. All you're asking for is for us to repeat the same rhetoric over and over. The "discussions" have been discussed ad naseum

 

[Chiller]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

What do you need this rifle to do?

Hunting?

Comps?

Two way range (safe bet this is not in play)?

How quickly do you need it?

The stock has yet to be honestly discussed.
In all reality you need to find them, get behind them, and shoot them. Until you have sent 1000's of rounds down range I STRONGLY suspect you will not know or shoot the difference.

If you have not done that either
Close your eyes and throw a dart.
Or set a governing criteria and let that guide you.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

...did I mention that you will go through all this when you have to figure out what glass you park on it?

 

[jordan0317]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Have you been behind a chassis like the AX or DTA or all conventional style stocks. Without handling them each you won't know if you will like them or not. You have to get behind each style and shoot it to see if it's for you. As far as accuracy goes as has been stated all shoot exceptionally well.

 

[BapZander]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Another to throw in the mix:

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">Ruger <span style="color: #FF0000">Am</span><span style="color: #FFFFFF">eri</span><span style="color: #3333FF">can</span>!</span></span>

Maybe not quite as accurate but you can buy 10 and shoot the most accurate one, and have plenty of backups. (just pay additional shipping and handling)

Plus it's American.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BapZander</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another to throw in the mix:

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">Ruger <span style="color: #FF0000">Am</span><span style="color: #FFFFFF">eri</span><span style="color: #3333FF">can</span>!</span></span>

Maybe not quite as accurate but you can buy 10 and shoot the most accurate one, and have plenty of backups. (just pay additional shipping and handling)

Plus it's American. </div></div>

 

[Timl]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

You're going to have a hard time looking for a member who has one of each to compare. Each one is basically a $5000 rifle. They are all top notch and will be better built, better looking and better performing overall. I ended up with a surgeon and it is by far the nicest rifle I have put my hands on (although I have not held a lot of custom guns). During load testing my rifle, it shot a .19" group (5 rounds - 100 yards). The rifle is better than me. I spent a ton of money, but after handling and shooting it - could not be happier with my decision. I have no doubt any of the rifles you mentioned along with a few others you did not, would do the same for you.

 

[JB02]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

For me, the difference between Surgeon and GAP are the choices available to you. Surgeon's gear is top of the line, but their "chinese menu" of customization options and available chamberings is limited. With Surgeon, you are going to have either an AI or McMillan A5 stock, a Krieger barrel, and of course a Surgeon action. You will be limited to a little more than half a dozen chamberings and they are designed for tactical and target shooters.

GAP has everything you can want, and can be a little more budget friendly if your willing to go with a Remington action and a non-adjustable McMillan HTG stock.

DTA and AI are what you go for if you want something with the lifecycle support of a factory rifle. DTA has options suited for larger calibers, such as 375 CT and 50 BMG.

You decision making goes like this, do I want something factory or custom built?

If factory, do I like the features and fit provided more by AI or DTA?

If custom, am I happy with Surgeon's offerings? If yes, go with Surgeon, if not, get something built to your specs by GAP.

If you want something that is going to give you a tiny 1/4" group hole, get a rifle built off a Surgeon action to your specs for you by Robert Gradous or LA Precision Rifles. The caliber, stock, barrel, etc. need to be suited to the rifle's intended use.

 

[neeley205]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Even if you cant find the specific rifles, find the stocks and get behind em. Even if you can whittle down some basics "I like/hate thumbholes, I like/dont like chassis stocks, I prefer/dont more traditional feeling stocks like Manners/McM."
Finding an AICS, McM and MCS shouldnt be too hard.

 

[crawdad1]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

If your 700P is 1/2moa consistently buy a stock for it. Shoot out the barrel then have it rebarreled by(insert favorite smith) and carry on.

 

[Bradu]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

I was in the same boat for quite a while, tried out 5r in KRG stock, high end gas guns, RWS built 700 and now I'm trying a DTA. I love the RWS built rifle but I want a DTA for the caliber conversions so I can take one rifle out to shoot rather than 2-3 rifles. Don't know how I will like the bullpup design for cycling the bolt but I can't find one anywhere close to shoot so it's a gamble. I think it will be nice for hunting since it's quite a bit shorter than a regular rifle.

 

[Captain Kirk]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Its a blonde vs brunette vs redhead question, answer is there all good.
As mentioned, it comes down to fit and how well the stock suits you. One thing most new shooters don't understand is the importance of having a rifle "set up" for the specific shooter; length of pull, scope height and eye relief, comb, etc. Its similar to a race car being tweeked for a specific driving style and driver fit, very important. Get behind some rifles at the local range or check the member link up or local matches and meet some locals so you can see first hand what fits you.

 

[sib1948]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Like Bradu I have a RW Snyder 700 in 308 which I love. Best group 0.32 MOA 100 yds. Consistently shoots 10 ring in 500 yd 60 round prone matches. Also have Barrett MRAD 338 Lapua Magna which I love, but ammo costs 3.50 to 7.50 a round unless you reload, which I am just getting into. I am planning on buying DTA SRS A 1 whenever it becomes available later this year. One bullpup gun with many different barrel conversions. Light weight flexible and more portable than most similar guns. I am taking a gamble since I too have never seen or held one in person, but seems to be great company with great customer service. Luckily, if you don't like what you chose, all would be fairly easy to sell at only a small loss.

Rember that any of these guns will generally total $10,000 when you add scope, rings, case, bipod, extra magazines, etc. Be sure to get adjustable stock and cheek piece, because many premium scopes have very picky eye box and you won't know what feels right until you get out and do some shooting. Good Luck

 

[saint.308]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

I wondered the same thing a few years back.

Being that I have a hard time trusting reviews and have way to much time on my hands I bought all of the guns mentioned. plus a few others not on you list. Pretty much if it was a tacticool LR rifle I owned it

If price is an issue buy a Blaser. multical capability, low initial cost.
Amazingly fast with the straight bolt pull.
It may be a fluke but the most accurate i shot was a Kimber 8400 tactical it beat both custom manufactures.
Followed by surgeon then gap. Remember we're talking differences of .02 and.04
In accuracy between the 3 mentioned. so in reality they are equal and awesome.

AI is the business, I have had all of the available models and just recently a PSR.

AI is not the most accurate but it's sub 3/4 moa, good enough for anyone but benchrest shooters
And hell for stout as you have already read.
I have literally launched them out of utvs at full speed with no ill effects.
We're talking 48-50 mph just scratches.
If I could only keep one it would be the AI if I could keep 2 the Blaser would be second

My by far least favorite was the DTA
I can see where it could be useful but unless you NEED it short
Go for better ergonomics.

What others have posted really is true. Decide on a stock, gap and surgeon can throw on a ax or aics stock. Decide what you think will fit best.
Then come up with some criteria to base a choice on. Such as price, availability in your caliber of choice, intended use.
Is this for the apocalypse or the range.
Competition or being an uber ninja
If you seriously consider these things one manufacturer will stand out as your clear winner.

 

[JSF]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

I know you don't like it, but Mike above is correct. I have a Surgeon and a GAP, I have shot the AI and been around the DTA and they are all capable of shooting under 1/2 moa in the right hands. Accuracy would be the last thing on my mind when choosing between these four because they all are more than capable.

You are asking this question because you are scared to drop 5k on a rifle. I understand, it's a lot of money. The problem is you are asking the wrong question. Why do these rifles cost soo much more money than my 1/2 moa stock Remington when they don't offer a much better accuracy guarantee? If you don't know the answer to this question keep shooting your Remington until you figure it out. Accuracy is only part of the equation.

 

[Nuttshooter]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

ACE,

Could you please complete your profile so that others may know what your AO is so that maybe there are people around you who are willing to let you finger bang there 7k rifles.

FWIW, I am also a proud owner of a GAP(Arrow on the barrel) and a AIAW. Love them both equally!

 

[ace of hearts]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Thanks to all who have responded so far. As requested I put a little more info in my profile. I can see some members think that trying to differentiate these guns based on accuracy is “the wrong question”, but my needs may be somewhat different than others. I know this is a tactical site and most guys here are interested in shooting tactical matches from barricades and other awkward positions, shooting 1 and ½ moa steel targets, etc. That fascinates me and I would love to try my hand at that. In reality however my obligations to the hospital where I work prevent me from traveling to these matches with any regularity. I know from reading other threads that some of the competitive tactical shooters look down people who focus on group size because “that’s not what real shooting is about”. I recognize the additional skills that may of you have worked hard to develop to read wind, mil targets at unknown distances and shoot from compromised positions; hopefully I will have the opportunity to work on these things. The sober reality is that while I may occasionally get to participate in a competition or shooting course 80% of my shooting will be on our local range from a bench. Because of that I would like a gun that shoots really well from a bench, but is still flexible enough that I could use in some practical shooting for the remaining 20%. I thought and still think that asking which of these guns is likely to shoot best from a bench is both a reasonable question and one that has not been addressed before quite this specifically (I am not asking which is the best overall; they are all great).
All things being equal, I wanted to try an AI or DTA just to try something different, and because I am comfortable with the pistol grip from my AR shooting, and I already have one GAP on order. I am getting some responses (some via pms) however suggesting that for pure accuracy the customs may be the way to go. LA precision and Robert Gradous, two smiths that I had not considered, are getting a lot of mentions as well.

Thanks again to all

 

[Mike]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

Good post.

For what you described, I really think you're barking up the wrong tree. If you're going to shoot at a bench at 100 yards 80% of the time, you need to direct your build towards that. Again, fit is the most important but many of those guns are not favorable for the application you described. You wouldn't take a car that you will drag race 80% of the time and the road race 20%.

Build a rifle more in the direction of bench rest and get a second rifle eventually that will allow you to shoot comps. Dirt and precision don't mix so forcing them to wi get ugly and frustrating

 

[JSF]

Re: Another Newb. GAP vs Surg vs DTA vs AI question

The only reason I said you are asking the wrong question is it seemed you were questioning the expense of a custom vs. your Remington when you might not get much more accuracy. The reason most of us go custom is to get the rifle set up exactly how we want it. You can't do that with an off the shelf rifle. There is a significant price increase because all components are top shelf. 1/2 moa vs. 1/4 moa might not seem like much at 100 yards, but it can make a significant difference at distance.

With what you just explained, I would personally go with Surgeon or GAP. To me the DTA is for a specific purpose and bench rest is not that purpose. The AI is built for war and it's weight reflects that. For bench rest the weight may not matter to you. I just got done doing load development for my Surgeon. I tried from 41.2gr of H4350 in .3gr increments up to 42.4 grains. Every group was under 1/2" at a 100 yards. All of them were 5 shot groups. Two groups in the teens. I would imagine that would fit your criteria.