Another SFAR with issues

[jetmd]

All ammo shot was factory Hornady.

The first 2 pieces of brass are from American Whitetail 165 InterLock

Next 2 Black 168 A-MAX

Then Whitetail 150 InterLock

Gas setting at 3, weapon would not cycle reliably with any of the ammo on 2.

Was not tested with can.

LOTS of flattened and cratered primers.

 

[jetmd]

Unfortunate Ruger has forgotten how to build firearms.

 

[LRRPF52]

Unfortunate Ruger has forgotten how to build firearms.

They’re kind of in uncharted territory trying to make a semi-auto .308 Winchester that only weighs 6.8lbs that will run reliably with an AR-15 weight carrier and AR-15 sized bolt. Without aerospace-level engineering and funding, I don’t think it’s a realistic goal.

 

[TheOE800]

Unfortunate Ruger has forgotten how to build firearms.

Not really new news here, folks.

 

[doubloon]

Gas setting at 3, weapon would not cycle reliably with any of the ammo on 2.

I sent mine back, I don't recommend it.

Mine didn't start cycling reliably until about round 70 or 80.

They made the port for regulator #2 even bigger and sent it back after slamming a few rounds through it.

It's only uncharted for "engineers" who are dumb enough to drill a 1/8+" tunnel as a gas port in a barrel for a AR-15 sized BCG and standard AR-15 buffer weight then try to fix it with a monster spring that has 10+lbs pressing against the closed bolt and 17+lbs pressing against the retracted bolt. My LR-308 spring is lighter than that with a BCG nearly 1.5X the weight of SFAR BCG.

I'll be replacing the gas block with a Superlative AGB. I'll try a few settings with the flyweight buffer and the monster spring before experimenting with an H1 buffer and less spring. Somebody in one of the other threads did something similar and said it fixed most or all the problems Ruger can't figure out.

Probably won't be long before more of these start kabooming, I only know of one so far.

 

[jetmd]

Not really new news here, folks.

Yep

 

[jetmd]

Thankfully this isn’t mine.

Just attempting to help my buddy out.

 

[XP1K]

16" or 20" ? Can or no can ?

 

[Jsp556]

What were people really expecting from a $1k small frame 308 made by Ruger?

 

[doubloon]

What were people really expecting from a $1k small frame 308 made by Ruger?

Too much.

I expected it to be at least as good as KelTec

 

[jetmd]

16”
No can
He lives 5 hours from me and doesn’t have a can.
No use trying mine.

 

[msgriff]

After your buddy does the warranty repair routine, I would try a heavier buffer, H2 or H3.

 

[doubloon]

He can ask them to ship him a new regulator valve. They should be able to tell from the serial number if his shipped with the updated valve.

Other than that, warranty is a waste of time for this issue unless something has actually failed catastrophically.

Someone with a 16" on another forum had the FCG blown through the bottom of the lower right down into the trigger guard. Not possible to repair, they replaced his 16" with a 20". He's going to get a smith to chop it to 16" thinking the gas port farther out will at least give him a chance to get it working at the 16" length.

 

[bfoosh006]

Approximately how many rounds have been fired through the rifle ?
( Sorry if I missed it )

 

[jetmd]

About 200, there were some FTF out of those.

 

[bfoosh006]

About 200, there were some FTF out of those.

I would expect that would be plenty for break in. Have you tried the SFAR with the gas block adjusted lower ?
I don't know if that would help with the primer issues at all.. but it should help with the vigorious cycling.
I would also thoroughly check your firing pin tip for any damage, from the pierced primers.

 

[jetmd]

It would only run on ‘3’
With it set on 2 it would only cycle about half the time.

The rifle is home with its owner.

So my involvement is currently over.

The reason for my post was more of a first hand account in hopes someone thinking about a purchase would consider these experiences posted by myself and numerous others.

I am too old and lack patience for troubleshooting a production firearm.
That’s the manufacturer job to do T&E and provide QC

 

[stanley_white]

More and more I feel like in rifles you can have two of the three of Accuracy, Lightweight, and Reliability.

-Stan

 

[doubloon]

I don't know if that would help with the primer issues at all.. but it should help with the vigorious cycling.

Depending on how much stock you put into what the guy at the "you are being redirected" link below thinks about the primer issues it may be the only thing that will help is a new bolt. I'll have to put a scope on the leade and compare to the previous pics to see if they violated my chamber and didn't mention it.

The WO from Ruger claims they replaced the bolt in my rifle. I may put it back together with the original parts and fire a few rounds to see if it makes any difference in the brass. If it makes a difference in the brass chewing then I'll have to eat my words about the warranty route being a complete waste of time and throw the bolt on the burn pile of what's wrong with this rifle along with the rifle port, gas block and maybe more.

You are being redirected...

ohnKielly said:


It is more likely to find factory ammunition to be somewhat undersized for your chamber which results in sequence:

The firing pin pushes the case forward then fires the round
The primer backs out to take up the space behind the case
The case expands back to fit the chamber causing the primer to "rivet" and flatten out to fill the entire primer pocket.

Works the same if you resize brass beyond what's needed for the chamber's dimensions.

 

[BCP]

It would only run on ‘3’
With it set on 2 it would only cycle about half the time.

The rifle is home with its owner.

So my involvement is currently over.

The reason for my post was more of a first hand account in hopes someone thinking about a purchase would consider these experiences posted by myself and numerous others.

I am too old and lack patience for troubleshooting a production firearm.
That’s the manufacturer job to do T&E and provide QC

 

[msgriff]

snip...

The reason for my post was more of a first hand account in hopes someone thinking about a purchase would consider these experiences posted by myself and numerous others.

I am too old and lack patience for troubleshooting a production firearm.
That’s the manufacturer job to do T&E and provide QC

So you started a troubleshooting thread, on a rifle that later in the thread turns out not to be yours, which you finally admit that you have no intention on fixing? You're entitled to your opinions, but why not just be honest about those details from the beginning? Seems a bit disingenuous, to put it politely.

 

[MadDuner]

All these SFAR threads (mine included) would probably scare a few folks from getting one. For the record - my 20” has only had issue with a single brand of ammo. All others have worked without issue, other than one other brand apparently has very soft brass that have been marred slightly by the ejectors sharp edges. Currently have approx. 300 rounds through it.

Mine likes the Hornady 168gr Superformance stuff.... just like my RPR does.
Although I have yet to stretch the SFAR’s legs at any sort of real distance.

 

[jetmd]

1) Never claimed it was mine
2) Was only made to inform others with first hand experience of an unmodified factory rifle using factory ammunition
3) Never asked for any help troubleshooting , if I did please share the quote of my post
4) Never said I was going to fix *hit

If the title of my thread was misleading I apologize.

 

[BCP]

So you started a troubleshooting thread, on a rifle that later in the thread turns out not to be yours, which you finally admit that you have no intention on fixing? You're entitled to your opinions, but why not just be honest about those details from the beginning? Seems a bit disingenuous, to put it politely.

Eh as long as he's polite and can take a joke we might as well throw him some suggestions.

I'd look for gas leaks around the block/key then shoot some milspec FMJ ammunition (igman, saltech, GGG). Another thing would be a dummy handload with a 175-180gr bullet seated a little long say 2.83 blacken it with a felt marker and chamber it to see if it's hitting the throat. Then progressively seat it deeper until it doesn't hit.

Not much to do about the ejector/extractor marks unless he wants to stone the specific parts to eliminate sharp edges. Primer cratering is the firing pin hole a bit too large pretty much every factory 700 is like that it's not anything to worry about imho.

 

[jetmd]

And further to help understand.

“you said you were helping your buddy”

My task was to source an optic, mounting system.
Level and install, help him zero and set zero stop feature.

It was during this exercise that the original findings were found then posted.

I did not disclose accuracy, which was poor.

The best it would do was just over 1.5moa with FGMM 168’s

 

[jetmd]

My buddy shoots only factory ammo.

Does not reload. So that is not an option.

 

[doubloon]

1) Never claimed it was mine
2) Was only made to inform others with first hand experience of an unmodified factory rifle using factory ammunition
3) Never asked for any help troubleshooting , if I did please share the quote of my post
4) Never said I was going to fix *hit

If the title of my thread was misleading I apologize.

You did not ask for help and you didn't even hint that you were thinking about fixing it.

Thanks for sharing and I wish your buddy luck. If he gets it fixed maybe one of you can post the results back here.

Any rifle that only functions correctly with certain brands of ammo is a hazard. At least with the 47-40 Govt. the delineation between safe and unsafe ammo is pretty clear. Nobody should be required to avoid COTS ammo or reload weak ammo for a properly functioning modern production firearm.

Clearly Ruger has released a marginally safe firearm and they need to address it. Unfortunately I think the only avenue they have to do so is to discontinue production and issue a complete recall and a refund, even if partial, because they do not have the in house skills to produce the rifle they claim to have created.

 

[MadDuner]

You did not ask for help and you didn't even hint that you were thinking about fixing it.

Thanks for sharing and I wish your buddy luck. If he gets it fixed maybe one of you can post the results back here.

Any rifle that only functions correctly with certain brands of ammo is a hazard. At least with the 47-40 Govt. the delineation between safe and unsafe ammo is pretty clear. Nobody should be required to avoid COTS ammo or reload weak ammo for a properly functioning modern production firearm.

Clearly Ruger has released a marginally safe firearm and they need to address it. Unfortunately I think the only avenue they have to do so is to discontinue production and issue a complete recall and a refund, even if partial, because they do not have the in house skills to produce the rifle they claim to have created.

I don’t believe it to be marginally safe, or partially unsafe....
AR10s have always inherently come with some element of trial and error to see what each one wants. There is no “standard” to work to. The range of “factory ammo” is so wide and varied, that pretty much nothing works perfect with everything. But I get it. Ruger is a long-established manufacturer and nothing but perfection is to be expected.

Maybe their attempt at a lightweight .308 that has always been a large frame endeavor was doomed from the start. It could be that nobody can get there from here or they have to make changes at the factory to compensate for different ammo specs? So maybe it only works with certain ammo? Or maybe only malfunctions with certain ammo? We’ll see what it acts like after a couple thousand rounds.

Nobody twisted my arm to make me buy one - just like how nobody twisted my arm to make me buy the 5 or 6 other AR10’s I have. None of them have been flawless, regardless of brand or frame size. It’s all part of the experience of new firearms. As humans, we love to bitch about everything. No amount of engineering will create something that people can’t bitch about. It’s just how we are.

 

[doubloon]

Nobody twisted my arm to make me buy one

Mine either. Just like all the KelTecs I bought or that abomination known as the Sig Mosquito.

Yes, yes, yes ... "no AR-10 standard" ... it gets repeated endlessly as the reason for poor or fallible engineering. Like not having a standard is a good reason for mediocre quality and performance. Like nobody is capable of making anything that works correctly unless they have a published standard to work from. Like the reason there are so many crappy AR-308s is because nobody has provided instructions on how to build one.

One known kaboom and multiple reports of popped/flattened primers make me believe more "accidents" are due to be reported.

 

[LRRPF52]

What were people really expecting from a $1k small frame 308 made by Ruger?

That would make a great parts kit for seasoned builders and AR smiths. Especially if they just provided the barrel extension in one of the kits, but that’s something way outside of Ruger’s culture and business model.

 

[LRRPF52]

All these SFAR threads (mine included) would probably scare a few folks from getting one. For the record - my 20” has only had issue with a single brand of ammo. All others have worked without issue, other than one other brand apparently has very soft brass that have been marred slightly by the ejectors sharp edges. Currently have approx. 300 rounds through it.

Mine likes the Hornady 168gr Superformance stuff.... just like my RPR does.
Although I have yet to stretch the SFAR’s legs at any sort of real distance.

That’s interesting because Superformance typically hits the gas port with a lot higher port pressure.

 

[doubloon]

That would make a great parts kit for seasoned builders and AR smiths. Especially if they just provided the barrel extension in one of the kits, but that’s something way outside of Ruger’s culture and business model.

This. Honestly the rounds I put through it were acceptably accurate across every brand and load I tried. The barrel was accurate with every brand of ammo I tried ... biggest complaint is the port size and the AGB.

That’s interesting because Superformance typically hits the gas port with a lot higher port pressure.

Performance on the SFARs has varied wildly for a number of reasons, not the least of which is a loose, faulty or incorrectly mounted gas block.

 

[357Max]

Dammit I read this whole thread & no one answered my question.

I just want to know if the SFAR will through brass 30+ feet like my Mini 14??? I swear that's at least half the fun of shooting the mini.

 

[doubloon]

10 or so feet from bench height, maybe a little farther from standing position

 

[doubloon]

I find myself to be all at the same time puzzled, pleased and a little perturbed at the results of today's SFAR experiment.

Went to a nearby indoor range to do some tests because it was easier to work it in while running errands than packing for a day of accurizing at the club range.

I added a weird twist just for fun, don't know what it proves but it's numbers so there's that.

The SFAR is in the condition as returned from Ruger after service

There are still definitely some scrapes and some imprints in the bases but the lugs are virtually brass chip free. The brass itself also looks 90+% better than it did before the service. Annotated brass picture at the end of this lengthy and boring post.

I ran 4 rounds, one on each regulator setting, with a naked muzzle, the factory brake and suppressed with the old Liberty Freedom then most of the rest of the box suppressed with the regulator set on 1.

It ran flawlessly except for the two rounds shot unsuppressed on regulator setting 1, they did not eject but that was the expected result.

The #2 regulator port is bigger now than it was when I measured it new out the box but everything else is the same. And yet ... different results. I don't know if it was widened by Ruger or if it just eroded that quickly.

They did say they replaced the bolt and now I wish I'd spent more time taking measurements on the bolt because I believe this is the only known change to the original build but I don't know exactly what they changed. So what could they have changed on the bolt?

I still think it's overgassed but it seems obvious from the results today that there was something fundamentally wrong with the bolt ... I just don't know what.

I plan to run it as-is for a while and check for regulator erosion and brass chips for a while. I still plan to replace the gas block eventually and play with tuning the spring and the buffer but I'll give Ruger a nod today for working some kind of magic.

The weird twist, I installed an accelerometer on my phone and strapped it to the handguard using a MLOK mount meant for something else.

Using an entirely unscientific method of loosely cradling the stock on my shoulder I proceeded to take some readings on the axis that mattered ... to me.

At a scoped, unsuppressed and unbraked weight of ~ 8lb 8.5oz acceleration in a rearward direction at regulator settings 3, 2, 1 and 0 were measured to be 72.4, 74.9, 74.7 and 69.9 m/s respectively.

At as scoped, unsuppressed and braked weight of ~8lb 10oz acceleration in a rearward direction at regulator settings 3, 2, 1 and 0 were measured to be 64.1, 52.2, 64.8 and 71.2 m/s respectively.

At a scoped and suppressed weight of ~9lb 15oz acceleration in a rearward direction at regulator settings 3, 2, 1 and 0 were measured to be 49.3, 50.9, 56.6 and 58.9 m/s respectively.

The flaws in the "hold on loosely but don't let go" technique are clearly visible but the averages tell a story that seems plausible when comparing it to "felt" recoil.

The Brass ...