Another SFP vs FFP, how does one suit me?

[_Will_]

Looking at buying another scope for an upcoming AR10 build. I currently have a HOWA 20" heavy barrel 308 with a 4x16x44 SFP, which I range out known distances with my Sig KILO2200BDX range finder. I have no issues hitting steel targets using holdovers at 8-10x at 400 yards with my current dope data ( 100 yard zero). If I have to dial elevation or windage I will. But generally, I hold over for targets and it works for me.

Question is, should I consider an FFP scope or need one.? From what I gather the scaling stays consistent throughout magnification but the cross-hair size changes, especially at closer range. From what I've read here, is that shooting at known distances especially with a range finder it shouldn't matter. SFP is more than fine..... A FFP is supposed to come into play at unknown distances for rapid engagements.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

If you want to hold over, you'd be better served with FFP.
With SFP, as the magnification changes, the angular distance between the hashes changes. So unless you dial drop, you won't have consistent holds as you change magnification.

If you never turn it off max mag, the size is always the same so you could use effective holdovers that way. Generally, the subtensions in the reticle are only accurate at max mag (or one other point in the mag range).

It sounds like it works, so I wouldn't say go broke to fix it. But if you start wanting to go further, smaller targets, or get more first round hits, you'll need to shift to consistently dialing on drop or only using the magnification setting that your reticle subtensions are set for (which will also help for consistent wind calls).

 

[flyfisher117]

What exactly do you plan to do with said gun? It sounds like you're just banging steel? Have you tried using your holds further out?

I started out SFP and got by i had my holdovers for my reticle at 2 different magnifications and i could hit steel.. I also spent a lot of time walking in shots.
Going FFP just clicked and worked so much more for me. It does what I need and it has made making holds better. Specifically the wind.

 

[hlee]

Just to be clear… On an SFP scope, because the reticle size does not scale with the target as the magnification is changed, any ranging/holdover markings on the reticle are only accurate at one magnification. IE, if you holdover at 10x at 400 yards is some mark on the reticle, it will be different at 5x or 20x.

This is not the case with a FFP scope. Because the reticle size does change with the target as the magnification is changed, your holdovers are consistent at all magnifications.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Get a third focal plane they do both

 

[Waco Kid]

If you have a higher magnification scope, FFP makes more sense to me. For ringing steel I usually don’t go all the way to 15x (max on my scope) until I get out to or past 1000 yards. Mirage and target size factor in to that though for sure. But I’m still new to long range so some of the veterans may have better advice!

 

[gconnoyer]

Get a third focal plane they do both

I see you've been browsing Quigley Ford's website!

 

[308pirate]

If you have a higher magnification scope, FFP makes more sense to me.

The choice of focal plane is not tied to the scope's magnification range or maximum. It's tied to its intended use.

Benchrest and F-class competitors overwhelmingly favor SFP scopes with much higher top end magnification than what you'll see at any steel ringing match.

 

[Steel head]

The choice of focal plane is not tied to the scope's magnification range or maximum. It's tied to its intended use.

Benchrest and F-class competitors overwhelmingly favor SFP scopes with much higher top end magnification than what you'll see at any steel ringing match.

 

[Waco Kid]

The choice of focal plane is not tied to the scope's magnification range or maximum. It's tied to its intended use.

Benchrest and F-class competitors overwhelmingly favor SFP scopes with much higher top end magnification than what you'll see at any steel ringing match.

I agree intended use is the first reason to choose one over the other. I disagree that the max mag or the set mag, whichever it is for the subtensions to be acurate has no bearing on which to choose. Being tied to one set mag to use for holdovers isn’t always ideal, imho, especially if the set mag is high. The SFP scopes I’ve used have all been acurate only at max mag. Just throwing an opinion at the OP

 

[308pirate]

I disagree that the max mag or the set mag, whichever it is for the subtensions to be acurate has no bearing on which to choose

You're wrong. Not everyone uses reticle subtensions in high-powered, target scopes.

I even gave you two examples

 

[Waco Kid]

I’m sorry, where did I say or imply that everyone using a SFP scope did use the reticle subtensions?

Yes, you did indeed give two examples… two disciplines that the OP never mentioned as something he would be interested. He did however mention using the reticle for holdovers, so what I said about being tied to a specific magnification, and that if it is a really high mag it could be less than ideal, is not untrue in my experience. Maybe you don’t see it as a problem, that’s fine. But some might, hence why I mentioned it.

 

[SporterII]

To 400 yards known property etc, any scope can successfully make hits. SFP can be used at different mag levels with verified dope. However, it’s my experience as I become mouldy, it’s easy to get lost on a clock. Also the reticle you choose to work with makes or breaks ease of use.
I regret sticking with SFP knowing now there are a few FFP options I have found easy for me to use at mag levels I find myself using.

 

[hlee]

I have;
a 1-8 FFP on a 16” AR
A 6-24 FFP on a 10/22
A 6-24 FFP on a 270 win ‘mountain rifle.’
A 5-20 FFP on my ‘comp rifle.”
These are all guns where I expect to use holdovers at least part of the time.

Red dots on HD guns. And, a few 3-9 SFP scopes on rifles that are not shot beyond the MPBR for the rifle/cartridge.

If your use case does not call for holdovers (you are exclusively dialing elevation changes), your game calls for shooting at fixed and known yard lines (F-class), or you are not shooting beyond the MPBR of your setup (most deer hunters), a SFP scope will work fine for you. It seems that the field is split on SFP/FFP for LPVOs, but I feel one is better for my use in FFP with the right reticle.

PRS/NRL/field precision comp shooters are benefited by FFP. If you plan to actually use the holdover stadia in your reticle, you are benefited by FFP (especially when the yard lines are not known before hand). While I’m not an advocate of the concept, LR hunting benefits from FFP.

Well, these are my musings on the topic anyway.

 

[HousePlant]

All you need, my dude: https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/916080638

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.
SFP suits your needs, why change?
More important is good quality glass and rings on a quality rig.
I have never used anything but FFP, and won't change, because it suits my style of shooting.
Ranging targets with the reticle is part of my enjoyment.

 

[SporterII]

Isn’t ranging done at high mag?

 

[308pirate]

Isn’t ranging done at high mag?

Ranging with a reticle is dumb

It's slow and it's prone to huge inaccuracies

Just get a laser

 

[SporterII]

My comment was to the old fart.
Unknown distance targets have presented themselves. I would measure at max mag. For me that means15x.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

I like to use my mils to estimate range.
Just keeps the brain working.
Fuck the electrickery.
Same as I like to use a compass and map.
I have a Leica LRF, just as I also have a GPS, doesn't mean I need to rely on them.
I'm comfortable with my rifle, handloads, and wind reading, to nobble what I aim for.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

My comment was to the old fart.
Unknown distance targets have presented themselves. I would measure at max mag. For me that means15x.

So if you know the size of your target, the formula will get you a solution.

If you have had experience with your target species, your eyeometer is already calling an approximate distance anyway.
I enjoy tracking and stalking, then the set-up and shot.
Steel is great fun too, but being a sneaky cunt, and working an area against a cagey feral, has a lot of satisfaction.

Bane of my existence lately, have been Plovers.
Those feathered fucks warn the foxes of our presence.
All part of the game.

 

[Biscuits]

Looking at buying another scope for an upcoming AR10 build. I currently have a HOWA 20" heavy barrel 308 with a 4x16x44 SFP, which I range out known distances with my Sig KILO2200BDX range finder. I have no issues hitting steel targets using holdovers at 8-10x at 400 yards with my current dope data ( 100 yard zero). If I have to dial elevation or windage I will. But generally, I hold over for targets and it works for me.

I would say it depends on how far you want to shoot. 400yd is quite forgiving for holdovers as the amount you have to holdover is pretty small in the scheme of things. You can get it a bit wrong and still hit the target. That all goes out the window at long range and then you must be precise. So for me, a second focal plane scope doesn't cut it. My first scope a way back was SFP. Once I started to go long range, I sold it and now I only use FFP.

 

[308pirate]

Unknown distance targets have presented themselves. I would measure at max mag. For me that means15x.

You will until mirage makes it impossible for you to get an accurate measurement of target dimensions. Then you will have to turn magnification down.

 

[SporterII]

With a 15x I have not had that issue. I would use half that though if needed. Like I do for movers and finding targets. My throw lever makes quick work of finding half . I would have more trouble with some FFP reticles down the power scale that far.

 

[Ronws]

My first scope is a "hunting" scope. Vortex Crossfire II 3-9/40mm SFP with the Dead Hold BDC. Averaged for 150 to 165 gr and under 3,000 fps, it has hash marks below at 200, 300, 400 yards and the top of the fat stovepipe is 500 yards. And you will be within a few inches of target with that. it is good for hunting about 300 yards or less. I think it is best to use these type of scopes with a PBR or MPBR zero. The round of .308 I normally use has a PBR of 34 - 200 yards.

Next rifle, I put on a Diamondback Tactical 6-24/50mm. Did that with my AR-10 style rifle, too. I just like FFP and the accuracy of the reticle. With SFP scopes, you get the most accuracy, as it were, at maximum magnification. And, even then, with the lower priced scopes like the Crossfire II, you are lucky to get 1 MOA accuracy. Then, I upgraded some of my rifles to the Vortex Venom which is like an economy version of the Strike Eagle. And I have been hearing such good things that I put an Arken SH4 Gen 2 4-16/50mm on my current hunting rifle. I really do like FFP and zero stop.

I have a laser range finder and if I were in Utah, it would be great. I am in north Texas. You can aim at an area in the woods and it reflects off a nearby twig or leaf and gives you 30 yards, which is wrong. I range in the reticle all the time and knowing the dimenion of a landmark tree, for example, I can figure the range and adjust my turrets on my 100 yard zero, if need be.

I would say get the FFP scope for ease of ranging and yes, hold-overs. And, if you can get it, Strelok Pro app on your phone. Choose your sample target, input the details and it will give you turret settings and also show you what you would see in the reticle. It basically trues the reticle for you.

 

[beetroot]

Does your reticle have holds that you are wanting to use?
Yes, FFP
No, SFP

Only caveat is LVPOs/mid power scopes (say upto 12ish magnification).
If it is likely you will only use holds on max magnification then SFP is fine.

For example the NF 2.5-10x42 has a reticle you can use for wind and/or elevation holds.It is likely that you'd only use these holds on 10x so it's not really an issue.

 

[308pirate]

Does your reticle have holds that you are wanting to use?
Yes, FFP
No, SFP

Only caveat is LVPOs/mid power scopes (say upto 12ish magnification).
If it is likely you will only use holds on max magnification then SFP is fine.

For example the NF 2.5-10x42 has a reticle you can use for wind and/or elevation holds.It is likely that you'd only use these holds on 10x so it's not really an issue.

Pretty much how I decide.

 

[Nik H]

The choice of focal plane is not tied to the scope's magnification range or maximum. It's tied to its intended use.

Benchrest and F-class competitors overwhelmingly favor SFP scopes with much higher top end magnification than what you'll see at any steel ringing match.

Bingo