Rifle Scopes another viper pst goes down from 338 lm

[HotRodsCannon69]

New here been following this thread and own a new Savage BK110 338 Lapua and have no yet purchased glass for it yet, I intend to use it for longer range 800 + yards. I plan to load my own brass. Price range up to $3000. What should I look at, Company, Name, And Model, etc. Please be open about this I want a quality scope at a good price. Also will need rings, so help there would be welcomed. Thanks Rodney

 

[vh20]

I wasn't singling you out, but in response have you ever stopped to consider that the people with S&B, Nightforce, USO, etc rather than going straight to a forum and shouting "my shit is broke and they suck" instead simply employed the customer service and warranty? There are also likely 5x+ more Vortex sold than S&B, NF, etc. due to the price point difference and therefor it stands to reason that the incidents of breakage will for obvious reasons be less since less are sold? Anyone expecting a scope to stand-up or exceed a scope that's double and in some example triple the cost is an idiot. I also find it ironic that whenever people show up to bad mouth an item it's amazing how many of them have multiple friends all with the same product and same problem and think the same upper echelons are so much better, yet some of us are around all manner of products in the very echelons they speak of yet we never see the same issue and in fact do see others that break.

Man, I just don't agree with your logic. Why would someone complain about a failure on a $1000 scope, but remain silent about one that costs 2-3 x more? I would expect the opposite, especially, since in many cases it's the very same people involved who moved up to the expensive ones because of the cheaper one failing. As Aimsmall said, if my NF failed you bet I'd report it. Also, in an earlier post you admonished that people should have actual sales figures if they want to make their case about failure ratios, yet here you totally come up with your own ("5x + more")? And again, I think you're missing the point about "idiots" thinking a $1000 scope should stand up or exceed a scope 2-3x its price. That's NOT what they are expecting (at least I wasn't). I think they only expect it to stand up to normal use on their rifle and nothing more. I expect the $2-3K scopes to have better glass, better features, and perhaps to stand up better to EXTREME use, but I also expect the $1K scope to function normally just shooting paper off a bench. I can't see how that isn't a reasonable expectation, especially since the manufacturer says it should. Finally, in a later post you seem to blame mount and mounting techniques as the likely cause. I don't discount that happens sometimes, but the manufacturer KNOWS if you did that to their scope when you send it back to them, and you can bet they're going to tell the customer what they found. If people are complaining about scopes failing when they are damaged in this manner, then they're just being flat-out dishonest, and I guess there's nothing we can do about it. But they would know the reason for the failure because the manufacturer would have told them. There would be no "mystery" to the failure then.

 

[vh20]

New here been following this thread and own a new Savage BK110 338 Lapua and have no yet purchased glass for it yet, I intend to use it for longer range 800 + yards. I plan to load my own brass. Price range up to $3000. What should I look at, Company, Name, And Model, etc. Please be open about this I want a quality scope at a good price. Also will need rings, so help there would be welcomed. Thanks Rodney

Hi, Rodney. In your price range you should be able to get a fine scope. It really comes down to what features you want. A big determining factor in company/name/model will be whether you demand FFP or are happy with SFP. Have you determined that yet? If you're OK with SFP, the Nightforce NXS line has an excellent reputation in the $2K range. To get FFP in that price range, you could look at Leupold Mk 4 E/RT, or move up to Schmidt Bender or Premier, etc. in the 3-3.5K range (top of the line stuff). Also, there's lots of rings that will do a good job. I have Ken Farrell rings and rail on mine and they're OK, but there's also Badger, Nightforce, and a ton of others. You'll get lots of other good suggestions on both scopes and rings, so I'll stop there.

 

[6brshooter]

Sorry nick that u find it "ironic". Actually ironic is not the proper word to use there. Ironic would imply that i bragged on PSTs, and now dog them. I think suspicious or fishy would work better for what u imply. Either way i don't give two shits what u think is " ironic". If u want names feel free to pm me. I have discussed this issue with Sam@ vortex. The scope is going back today. I think the 110 savages are a good entry into 338 caliber. No it is not an ai aw, nor a trg42 or gap. It also doesn't cost 5-8k. Kinda reminds me of why i never joined a frat, never felt the need to buy friends. His rifle is used for banging steel, not comps or saving lifes. I have FN, tikkas, Remington and savage based customs, they all shoot good to great. I don't tell them they are inferior because of the rollmark on the receiver.

 

[-Nick-]

Sorry nick that u find it "ironic". Actually ironic is not the proper word to use there. Ironic would imply that i bragged on PSTs, and now dog them. I think suspicious or fishy would work better for what u imply. Either way i don't give two shits what u think is " ironic". If u want names feel free to pm me. I have discussed this issue with Sam@ vortex. The scope is going back today. I think the 110 savages are a good entry into 338 caliber. No it is not an ai aw, nor a trg42 or gap. It also doesn't cost 5-8k. Kinda reminds me of why i never joined a frat, never felt the need to buy friends. His rifle is used for banging steel, not comps or saving lifes. I have FN, tikkas, Remington and savage based customs, they all shoot good to great. I don't tell them they are inferior because of the rollmark on the receiver.

Never said you needed to own an expensive rifle nor did I bad mouth a 110 Savage. I also never said anything about something being inferior. Maybe you should look at your own insecurities since you're reading a lot into something that was never said nor implied.

 

[steve123]

I understand your points, but respectfully disagree with a few of them. To begin with, if the failure rate were in line with similar competitive products, I think we would be seeing the same reports on those products with an equal frequency. Every one of these failures is almost identical, and occur under almost identical circumstances. I am not aware of any other quality brand/model of scope that has developed a similar record. Regarding them standing behind their product being the most you can ask for, I would agree if their scope was not experiencing a higher rate of failure than competitive products. If it is, then I would at least ask that they fix the design problem. There's a lot more at stake here than just the scope itself. I lost two months worth of load development and had to start back over from square one because I could not determine for certain what data was real and what was affected by a wandering zero. A similar occurrence could be a missed trophy on a very expensive hunt, or important competition, etc. Standing behind the product won't do anything to replace any of that. I understand it is impossible for the manufacturer to cover that, but the point is that a free new scope isn't going to replace all your losses, and most folks would rather avoid all that in the first place (i.e. they'd rather buy a dependable scope to begin with). Finally, I haven't seen anyone actually put down their SERVICE. I found it to be outstanding. However, I think it would be the kiss of death for them to reduce their level of service because of people filing legitimate complaints about legitimate failures. That would be crazy. If your product is failing under normal use, you had BETTER be willing to go the extra mile if you want people to keep buying it. I didn't take Aimsmall to mean that he wanted the Vortex folks to come here and defend themselves, but rather come here and see what folks in the field are experiencing and reporting about their products so they can take whatever action they deem appropriate.

Just my two cents.

My interjection would be that the failure rate of the PST series due to the high recoil forces of big magnums snuck up on Vortex. Over time the weakness in design causing this specific problem is becoming apparent. I'm guessing the next generation of the PST line will be a better suited product for heavy recoiling rifles.

I had another "budget" brand of scope, but twice the price of the PST's, mounted on a big 30 cal that broke after a year. They sent me a new one which I sold and replaced with a HDMR, I had 3 of HDMR's, no problems.

For the sake of comparison I'm wondering how Bushnell's 3-12 and 6-24 tacticals are holding out with the big magnums ???

 

[6brshooter]

The second part wasn't aimed at u, don't get butthurt. The first part was, u want to imply that i am lying, to what would i gain? Vortex makes decent scopes for the money, i had issues last fall with a pst right out of the box. It took 2 trips to vortex to make it right. I got a razor for a hell of a deal, i got no bones with vortex. The intention of this thread was nothing more then a warning to others that want to put a pst on a braked 338, it didn't work too good for my friend. That is all i wanted, but when the fan boys come out and the thats what ur friend gets for only spending 800 on a scope crowd show up is when it got derailed. I will reiterate what i said earlier he had the scope he liked the scope. When he put the scope on a 338 lm it went tits up. Not everybody can afford the best of the best. That was not aimed at u nick, just clarification for clarification's sake.

 

[-Nick-]

The second part wasn't aimed at u, don't get butthurt. The first part was, u want to imply that i am lying, to what would i gain? Vortex makes decent scopes for the money, i had issues last fall with a pst right out of the box. It took 2 trips to vortex to make it right. I got a razor for a hell of a deal, i got no bones with vortex. The intention of this thread was nothing more then a warning to others that want to put a pst on a braked 338, it didn't work too good for my friend. That is all i wanted, but when the fan boys come out and the thats what ur friend gets for only spending 800 on a scope crowd show up is when it got derailed. I will reiterate what i said earlier he had the scope he liked the scope. When he put the scope on a 338 lm it went tits up. Not everybody can afford the best of the best. That was not aimed at u nick, just clarification for clarification's sake.

I implied nothing about you. You took it that way. I think you need to go back and really read what I said because you'll see I'm not in disagreement about fanboys or that if it's what you can afford then it's phenomenal for the price point IMO. I just think that people are too quick to point out a lower price point product flaw or issue and write-off an entire product based upon IMO relatively few experiences. And for the record I have a 6-14 PST on a bare bones 7mm Rem Mag 700 that's unbraked and it's never had an issue.

 

[-Nick-]

Man, I just don't agree with your logic. Why would someone complain about a failure on a $1000 scope, but remain silent about one that costs 2-3 x more? I would expect the opposite, especially, since in many cases it's the very same people involved who moved up to the expensive ones because of the cheaper one failing. As Aimsmall said, if my NF failed you bet I'd report it. Also, in an earlier post you admonished that people should have actual sales figures if they want to make their case about failure ratios, yet here you totally come up with your own ("5x + more")? And again, I think you're missing the point about "idiots" thinking a $1000 scope should stand up or exceed a scope 2-3x its price. That's NOT what they are expecting (at least I wasn't). I think they only expect it to stand up to normal use on their rifle and nothing more. I expect the $2-3K scopes to have better glass, better features, and perhaps to stand up better to EXTREME use, but I also expect the $1K scope to function normally just shooting paper off a bench. I can't see how that isn't a reasonable expectation, especially since the manufacturer says it should. Finally, in a later post you seem to blame mount and mounting techniques as the likely cause. I don't discount that happens sometimes, but the manufacturer KNOWS if you did that to their scope when you send it back to them, and you can bet they're going to tell the customer what they found. If people are complaining about scopes failing when they are damaged in this manner, then they're just being flat-out dishonest, and I guess there's nothing we can do about it. But they would know the reason for the failure because the manufacturer would have told them. There would be no "mystery" to the failure then.

I sell the products and I'm basing my ratio on what actually sells. Companies like NF, S&B, USO, and the like tend to sell fewer of a higher price point than companies like Leuopold, Vortex, Nikon, etc that sell more mass produced at a lower price point to the general consumer. Frankly that "5x+" is likely on the low side and based upon store numbers I could say it's higher. I think we can agree that most people here are not your "general consumer". I agree that it should shoot off a bench with ZERO issues and frankly I think it should survive match use... My issue is that I see plenty of PST's doing both and on magnums. You're incorrect though and a manufacturer can not always tell when it was improperly mounted, and they won't be quick to blame the customer if they have an iota of intelligence because that would backfire quickly when the customer gets offended. For instance... I had an ST-10 that was mounted properly (Single piece cantilever mount from Badger on an AR so kind of hard to fuck up lol) and I was simply letting a friend who had never shot before from a bench at 100 yds shoot some groups. The reticle cracked. USO and I both talked about it at length trying to figure out what happened and no answer was apparent except that maybe the glass had a slight flaw that went unnoticed.

 

[6brshooter]

I took the " ironic how people who blame a product always has a friend that had problems" as directed at me since s blamed a product that belonged to my friend. Pretty ambiguous at best. My friend is not a member here if he joins up he would have to get 100 posts before he could say anything negative about a product. Lord knows if his 1 st post was "hey my pst broke" would have definitely been agenda.lol

 

[vh20]

Nick, I'm not trying to say you're wrong, just that I see things differently. Earlier I stated (maybe it was the other thread) that while PSTs are definitely selling very fast, they've only been out a short time compared to the others, so I would expect actual numbers on actual units in the field would NOT have a huge number in favor of Vortex - just trying to make a reasonable case, but I don't really know. As for being wrong about the manufacturer knowing about failure from improper mounting, that info came to me from the Vortex tech, so I took him at his word. I guess there could be instances where it slips by them. Finally, I can't imagine, nor have I ever seen, a manufacturer take the blame for a clear-cut case of customer abuse. Perhaps if Donald Trump complained to his Rolls Royce dealer that the engine was defective (yet they found it was out of oil) they might suck it up, but very few of us are ever going to get that kind of treatment.

Anyway, no further argument from me. I was just trying to relate to you that, at least for my part (but I think for the others too), I have not and am not bad-mouthing Vortex. However I DO think there MAY be a problem with the PST in its current form being mated to a braked magnum. The only way we can determine that is through discussions like this one. If there IS a problem, prospective customers who come here should know about it, the manufacturer should know about it, and more importantly, they should know that their customers are catching on as well. Then they can address the design flaw, and the improved version can go about earning a well-deserved reputation. If there ISN'T really a problem, then this will all eventually blow over anyway if the scope is really performing as it should.

All good.

 

[Aimsmall55]

We gonna start listing off everything we've owned now, lol? I've literally had 2 USO's worth $2-3K both brake. Did I immediately get online and start telling everyone how crappy their scopes are? I've broken Bushnells, Vortex, Leica, Badger, rifles worth $3K+ and who knows what else. Ask anyone in my circle and they'll tell you if you want to see something brake just let me use it. Everything breaks at some point or another. It's one thing to be frustrated and complain, but it's entirely different when someone starts making a broad generalization based upon their limited experience with different products or one particular product and basing said frustration on a comparison to a product that is 2-3x the price. Those same people wouldn't write-off S&B or Nightforce if the same thing happened and make a public outcry. You want to get into semantics over me calling some of them "whiners" go ahead. So let's take an alternative approach... Do you want to know how many people I see on a daily basis who mount scopes improperly and then claim a product is crap when it's broken? Or how about the people that buy $1k+ scopes then mount them in shitty $25 rings on even shittier 2 piece bases that aren't lined up? Of course you ask any of them and they'll tell you they've been mounting scopes for 100+ years blah blah blah... and they never had a problem with their high end scope that had a 34 or 35mm tube with thicker walls and was less prone to the errors of stupid people mounting them. It never ceases to amaze me how when someone says they've broke a S&B or NF it's somehow the users fault, but if it's a "cheap" Vortex then it's all the scopes fault.

BTW... a little info for the masses. I had the not so distinct pleasure of listening to a training meeting put on by good ole Leuopold where their not so bright Rep said that 98% of the scopes they get back there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah... that's great customer service.

First off, I wasn't trying to be insulting. Secondly , why are you so adamant about disagreeing with everyone who has had problems with Vortex. I wasn't tring to " show off " by listing my scopes but yet you seem to turn it around and try to take it out of context. You just seem to want to smash everyone "whines" about their scopes breaking. If your breaking all those scopes have you ever wondered " what am I doing wrong"?

 

[Rob01]

Any one of you guys that say there scope is not holding zero need to send it to Scott at Vortex to test. I talked to Scott about it and he said would be more than happy to do it and post his results, good or bad. Hell he would even video tape it if you wanted. I know Scott personally and he will be 100% straight forward.

He actually just tested a scope that was sent in for not holding zero and stringing. Mounted it on his rifle and shot a nice tight little group under 1/2 MOA. My guess is the shooter or rifle was having problems. Not the scope. Not saying that is every problem but it happens more than people like to admit.

So if you have any troubles contact Scott.

 

[vh20]

Rob, I'm not sure if you've waded through all this mess on this and a couple of other threads, but as far as I know, every one of the scopes that has been discussed here WERE already sent back to Vortex and replaced due to defects. I haven't seen anyone blaming the scope here yet when it hasn't been verified by the maker, so I don't think shooting ability comes into play on any of THESE cases.

 

[CS95]

Rob, I'm not sure if you've waded through all this mess on this and a couple of other threads, but as far as I know, every one of the scopes that has been discussed here WERE already sent back to Vortex and replaced due to defects. I haven't seen anyone blaming the scope here yet when it hasn't been verified by the maker, so I don't think shooting ability comes into play on any of THESE cases.

I think that is exactly why Rob posted that. He has been around long enough to know that when someone has the same problem over and over again that they more than likely are looking in the wrong place.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Rob, I'm not sure if you've waded through all this mess on this and a couple of other threads, but as far as I know, every one of the scopes that has been discussed here WERE already sent back to Vortex and replaced due to defects. I haven't seen anyone blaming the scope here yet when it hasn't been verified by the maker, so I don't think shooting ability comes into play on any of THESE cases.

I've spoken with Scott on numerous occasions. VERY COURTEOUS AND PROFESSIONAL. It makes me feel a lot better knowing that he is aware and concerned about this issue...

 

[vh20]

I think that is exactly why Rob posted that. He has been around long enough to know that when someone has the same problem over and over again that they more than likely are looking in the wrong place.

I think I'm missing your point?

 

[Rob01]

VH maybe not in these cases but when people read this post ,and as always happens on the internet, they will get in on the feeding frenzy as you can see from other threads popping up. Then when they aren't getting the results they want they will look at this thread and say "my scope is bad because there is a thread on the Hide about it" when it's not the scope. Scopes with no problems getting returned happens alot more than most here know and not just with Vortex.

 

[6brshooter]

Fairly sure scope is not holding zero as groups got bigger 2x in fact. POI changed 1.75 moa down and 1 moa right. The parts hanging off and rattling on the scope made me suspect it as having an issue. Scott is a super nice fellow and definitely stand up guy, looking forward to what he finds in my buddy's scope. Scott helped me last fall and went above and beyond what anybody can offer in customer service class act for sure

 

[CS95]

Fairly sure scope is not holding zero as groups got bigger 2x in fact. POI changed 1.75 moa down and 1 moa right. The parts hanging off and rattling on the scope made me suspect it as having an issue. Scott is a super nice fellow and definitely stand up guy, looking forward to what he finds in my buddy's scope. Scott helped me last fall and went above and beyond what anybody can offer in customer service class act for sure

Having "parts hanging off and rattling on the scope" and/or debris in the scope certainly sucks. I have a certain scope that cost $3500 two years ago (not S&B) and it developed visible debris after less than 200rds on a non-magnum rifle. It certainly is pain when this happens and I dont think anyone is disputing that it sucks when that happens. However, everyone on here are not professional marksman. So, like Rob, I have to be a little suspect when guys come on here claiming there scope wont hold zero. Especially when it comes to heavy recoiling rifles as some of the best shooters in the country will tell you that even they will start to develop a bad flinch when shooting multiple rounds out of heavy recoiling rifles (this includes braked magnums) if they dont stay conscience of the fact.

 

[vh20]

Rob - gotcha. I wasn't sure if you had read through all this mess to understand that these weren't unverified cases, but I'm with you now. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[-Nick-]

First off, I wasn't trying to be insulting. Secondly , why are you so adamant about disagreeing with everyone who has had problems with Vortex. I wasn't tring to " show off " by listing my scopes but yet you seem to turn it around and try to take it out of context. You just seem to want to smash everyone "whines" about their scopes breaking. If your breaking all those scopes have you ever wondered " what am I doing wrong"?

Yeah that must be it... or maybe I actually use my equipment like an actual tool and I'm capable of realizing that things just break. Secondly, why am I not allowed to disagree? You're entitled to have an opinion but I'm not entitled to mine unless it agrees with you? Lol... let me know how that's working out for you. You also need to look in a mirror before you start talking about people taking things out of context or smashing others...

 

[-Nick-]

Having "parts hanging off and rattling on the scope" and/or debris in the scope certainly sucks. I have a certain scope that cost $3500 two years ago (not S&B) and it developed visible debris after less than 200rds on a non-magnum rifle. It certainly is pain when this happens and I dont think anyone is disputing that it sucks when that happens. However, everyone on here are not professional marksman. So, like Rob, I have to be a little suspect when guys come on here claiming there scope wont hold zero. Especially when it comes to heavy recoiling rifles as some of the best shooters in the country will tell you that even they will start to develop a bad flinch when shooting multiple rounds out of heavy recoiling rifles (this includes braked magnums) if they dont stay conscience of the fact.

The light... it's so bright! Lol...

 

[Aimsmall55]

Yeah that must be it... or maybe I actually use my equipment like an actual tool and I'm capable of realizing that things just break. Secondly, why am I not allowed to disagree? You're entitled to have an opinion but I'm not entitled to mine unless it agrees with you? Lol... let me know how that's working out for you. You also need to look in a mirror before you start talking about people taking things out of context or smashing others...

Jesus Christ! Your like sound like a nagging ex bitch of a girlfriend. I've tried to be polite, I've tried to be respectful. But dude .... You ALWAYS come back with something to egg it on. Lets just agree to disagree. And leave it at that.

 

[-Nick-]

Jesus Christ! Your like sound like a nagging ex bitch of a girlfriend. I've tried to be polite, I've tried to be respectful. But dude .... You ALWAYS come back with something to egg it on. Lets just agree to disagree. And leave it at that.

No, I just choose not to let you tell me what I should think or agree upon and you think if I don't agree with you or let you have the last word then I'm somehow the asshole. Like I said... good luck with that.

 

[Aimsmall55]

No, I just choose not to let you tell me what I should think or agree upon and you think if I don't agree with you or let you have the last word then I'm somehow the asshole. Like I said... good luck with that.

My wife says the same thing. Except I'm the asshole

 

[-Nick-]

My wife says the same thing. Except I'm the asshole

Does this mean you won't be asking me to the Prom?

 

[Aimsmall55]

Does this mean you won't be asking me to the Prom?

Lol... Anything for a reason to drink beer

 

[armorpl8chikn]

It appears to be a perfect time for this one, I keep it handy for just such an occasion:

 

[fdkay]

Yeah that must be it... or maybe I actually use my equipment like an actual tool ...

So, You're saying you're a tool?

 

[-Nick-]

So, You're saying you're a tool?

I drop it and move on and here comes an oxygen thief wanting to talk shit from the back of the crowd... I'll bet you're the brightest one to ever drop out of 3rd grade.

 

[fdkay]

I drop it and move on and here comes an oxygen thief wanting to talk shit from the back of the crowd... I'll bet you're the brightest one to ever drop out of 3rd grade.

Lighten up Francis. Apparently you're too fucking stupid to recognize a joke and good-natured teasing.

Quick taking yourself so seriously.

 

[-Nick-]

Lighten up Francis. Apparently you're too fucking stupid to recognize a joke and good-natured teasing.

Quick taking yourself so seriously.

Who the fuck are you kidding? Yeah I can see how that was just some ribbing and all meant in jest...

 

[Aimsmall55]

Who the fuck are you kidding? Yeah I can see how that was just some ribbing and all meant in jest...

Dude... You really got to stop taking stuff so personal. It's the Internet ... Where you can make jokes that get taken out of context. People fuck with me all the time , best thing to do is hit em back with something funnier

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Who the fuck are you kidding? Yeah I can see how that was just some ribbing and all meant in jest...

Well, you liked my video. That was a joke directed your way. Actually it was a perfect rendition of what I saw taking place between you and Aimsmall. Can't decide which one of you is the Count and which is Van Helsing. All I know is I would be Corman's character...."take him away and give him an enema!"

 

[Aimsmall55]

Well, you liked my video. That was a joke directed your way. Actually it was a perfect rendition of what I saw taking place between you and Aimsmall. Can't decide which one of you is the Count and which is Van Helsing. All I know is I would be Corman's character...."take him away and give him an enema!"

Well I've been pretty damn constipated lately