Rifle Scopes Another Vortex down

I battled for over a year with this. But once i got the K624i SKMR3 mounted i was kicking myself for not doing it sooner. The improved glass quality instantly helped me improve shooting beyond 600 yards.

I wish I could understand this. All my shooting at distance up to 600 yards has been NRA high power service rifle, so no optics. I have never spent any time behind any optic other than a red dot.

I'm currently trying to figure out where my money is best spent on an optic for my JH. If I go the route of a Steiner T5xi or Cronus BTR I have saved $1500 over the price of a Kahles, which translates into 1200 rounds of Prime 6.5 creedmoor. That's a LOT of time behind the gun.

How is an extra $1500 put into the optical clarity going to make that much difference between hits and misses?
 
How is an extra $1500 put into the optical clarity going to make that much difference between hits and misses?

Keeps me honest. When I miss I know it’s not because the target is a grainy smudge, it’s because the target is a respectably defined steel silhouette that would be that much clearer if I’d bought a Tangent Theta. ?
 
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How is an extra $1500 put into the optical clarity going to make that much difference between hits and misses?

It wont, it's mostly in your head.

Glass quality in todays $1000+ rifle scopes is, for the most part, very good across the board. There are a few scopes out there that have a slight edge in optical quality but its not a night and day difference, nor a hit or miss difference. I'd venture to guess the guy you quoted became more confident in his gear and/or replaced a poor quality optic which resulted in better overall performance.
 
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It's wont, it's mostly in your head.

Glass quality in todays $1000+ rifle scopes is, for the most part, very good across the board. There are a few scopes out there that have a slight edge in optical quality but its not a night and day difference, nor a hit or miss difference. I'd venture to guess the guy you quoted became more confident in his gear and/or replaced a poor quality optic which resulted in better overall performance.


I wasn't taking a shot at anyone by quoting, I'm just struggling to understand the hard facts about making this type of investment into an optic. There seems to be so many broad statements and contradicting opinions it makes it hard to find out what really matters.

Is it a case of, the guys spending $4k on an ipticcare never going to say "hey, I could have had 95% of the exact same thing for $1500" or a case of the guys that spent $1500 trying to make their purchasing that much closer to the quality of a $4k optic .


Sorry, all off topic.
 
I didn't think you were taking a shot at anyone and I wasn't either.

I think most people buying a $2500+ optic are paying for peace of mind, knowing that they not only have a scope with the features they need, but a scope thats built well enough to hold up and perform under less than ideal conditions. When you've had $1500 scopes die, a $2500 scope makes sense. Debating optical clarity in that price range is for bird wachers though, there's much more important things to consider for a precision rifle scope. ;)
 
I agree 100% with Jafo96. Falex has been nothing but a vortex troll for a number of years now. He has admitted that he personally has had two supposed issues with Vortex scopes that were not issues at all. My guess is that he is butt hurt that vortex didnt give him new scopes for his user error. In his head he is convinced that the scopes were broke and they should have given him new ones. Yet admitted with CUSTOMER SERVICE phone help the scopes were fine. It's either this or he is an entitled millennial that started shooting PRS and asked Vortex to sponsor him and they said no. So now Vortex is evil because they dont realize how great he is.

Chris

LOL!!! I love you man!!! That response was actually damn funny.

Here's my history of Vortex products: First Vortex was a 6.5-20 Viper with BDC reticle. It was returned because turning the windage turret made 0 changes to the POI. I returned it, they fixed it.

Second scope was a Vortex Diamondback 4-12. Scope performed just fine, no issues.

Third was a 6-24 Crossfire. This scope's elevation turret had something wrong with it. Long story short, the last 7-10 (can't remember) minutes of "up" elevation would not move the POI whatever those last several minutes remaining were. This scope is somewhere in my garage. I got it for a Christmas present and didn't really care about it too much.

Fourth was a 4-16 PST. Unfortunately, I sold that rifle and optic not long after I mounted the optic, so can't give a true recounting of it's performance other than stating that for the short time I owned it, there were no issues, it was good to go.

Then, onto my G1 Razors-
I bought two of them at the same time. Got the first one mounted up, believed the reticle to be canted, so I sent it in. The reticle was canted internally. Although Mr. Parks said it was very minimal, it was canted, nonetheless. The second Razor had that problem with the internals of the elevation turret (which some of you are contributing to some type of user error, but it simply was not. This was the internal assembly. There's not one of you on here that has screwed that fucking thing down or up, and if you have, it's because you had the same thing happen to you that I did). Furthermore, just because you call a company and they can help you fix something over the phone, does not mean the problem was user error. That is a stupid argument and you damn well know that).

So, after those issues, I sold the Razors off and swore off of Vortex forever. Then came along the GII Razors. Rob01 will recall how I ate crow and opted to recant my protestations of Vortex, so I bought a pair of G2 Razors. Once the problem with those set screws became apparent (again, this was not just me having this issue. In fact, if it were, I would not have thought much of it), I decided it was too prominent an issue to be nonchalant about it. And we can tell how prominent it is by simply observing how many of you have commented on making sure you have those screws "torqued down just right." Consequently, some of you know how much time and money goes into competing. The last thing I wanted to worry about was being in the middle of a competition and forget to check those set screws, only to find out, they had backed out again.

To answer your other queries, I am not a millenial, but I am an asshole. I have been shooting in competitions looooong before the PRS was the PRS (probably much longer than yourself, in fact), and as of presently, I haven't asked anyone to sponsor me. Believe me, friend, Vortex does enough, they don't need to sponsor anyone, really.

Even though I would never take a Vortex scope into a gun battle, or a PRS/NRL match, and although I know that may get some skivvies bunched up, I have always tried to recognize their dedication to the shooting sports. Vortex has been amazing at bringing new shooters into the fold. What's more, is the fact that they have treated those of us who serve our communities and country, with more-than-outstanding concern and care by allowing us the opportunity to purchase products at excellent prices. I will always be a fan of them for those reasons, as well as, for setting the standards in the customer service department.

Birddog - Thank you for the kind words. I always look forward to shooting with (and simultaneously against) you! ;)
 
I wish I could understand this. All my shooting at distance up to 600 yards has been NRA high power service rifle, so no optics. I have never spent any time behind any optic other than a red dot.

I'm currently trying to figure out where my money is best spent on an optic for my JH. If I go the route of a Steiner T5xi or Cronus BTR I have saved $1500 over the price of a Kahles, which translates into 1200 rounds of Prime 6.5 creedmoor. That's a LOT of time behind the gun.

How is an extra $1500 put into the optical clarity going to make that much difference between hits and misses?


make the purchase and you will understand. Not all glass (or eyes) are created equal. It took me over a year to buy the K624i, and my first range trip verified that it was a great (painful) purchase.

People will mock that its "skill" or this or that. But a clear shot makes it easier.
 
BD6424,

I generally agree with you, in that poor glass won't make you miss. That being said, if you can't see it, you can't hit it. Now for PRS, that isn't an issue. But for hunting (depending on the game and the terrain) that could definitely cause an issue, if you can't see the animal (like the sliver of the top of the head and an eyeball of a prairie dog, barking from his mound 400 yds out). Shrug...different strokes for different folks...
 
I'm not a "great glass" hater. Some of those optics are very impressive. If you have the money and want one, do it. But from a performance perspective, the right $1000 to $1500 will allow you to do everything the more expensive optic will do. Their just Corvettes instead of Ferraris.
I'd say this a good analogy. Corvettes still go just as fast, but they're just not there on the fit and finish.
 
in the past few yrs ive been to a lot of matches (club and prs) i can only think of 3 stages where glass quality (and also zoom) were factors

at the 2016 Outback match, i was RO'ing a stage with dirt berms and targets at 400, 500, and 600 yds...they were unpainted squares hung on black rubber straps...the stage was hit to move on and i watched a TON of shooters get down, complain they couldnt make out the 400 yd target, and just start sending rounds thru the strap (high above the target)...some guys never hit it...you could see the strap, but the piece of steel on the dirt blended in really well and was tough to see even thru a swaro spotter below 20x

at the 2016 finale there was a stage where the sun was blocked by the ridge/tree line depending on what time of day you shot it... and lots of shooters were complaining they couldnt see the targets that were back under the trees, unpainted, and backed by fresh dirt....they could see the target stand and strap, but couldnt make out where the targets edges were...i could see them fine in my gen 2, but i had to crank up to max power to ID them, below 20x would have been a guessing game...my buddy was running a 3-18x mark 6 and said he could only make out a few of them by seeing the shiny bolts

this past weekend at the Lonestar match, the stage i RO'd had prairie dogs from 200 to 450 yds...the 450 yd dog was shot up and the ground behind it all shot up by day 2 and again, blended right in with the dirt...you could see the t post but without me pointing out where the 450 yds dog was, guys couldnt find it...guys with lower power optics and lower quality glass really struggled, most said they couldnt see the target so they just shot near where they thought it was and moved on

i agree with Bird...99.9% of the time having "decent enough" glass isnt going to hurt you, but at times if the situation is just right, it could make things a little more difficult. accurate tracking and durability are still above glass in my book, always will be
 
I can’t comment on glass quality. I didn’t even have any glass in my scope when I took this beauty.
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i agree with Bird...99.9% of the time having "decent enough" glass isnt going to hurt you, but at times if the situation is just right, it could make things a little more difficult. accurate tracking and durability are still above glass in my book, always will be

I echo this thinking. 99% of the time, a decent scope is enough, but it sure is nice on that 1% opportunity. Mine was at the Allegheny Sniper Challenge (up in the hill country of WV). Stage was called 'cave' or something like that and the steel target was about 1100yds away set inside a cave-like hole in forest. Most shooters could not see, let alone engage it, as weather and lighting was especially poor. Guys with higher end scopes that had big objective lens could. My Premier 5-25x56 really was awesome on that stage as I had no issues seeing target and spotting for other guys.

Unless you are real poor or the like, I would recommend spending the dollars for the better optic. They hold their value well and can be used a long time without wearing out across multiple platforms. Do make sure you get one with a good warranty. Save money somewhere else if you really need to (e.g. get a Rem 700 instead of the custom action).
 
I'd say this a good analogy. Corvettes still go just as fast, but they're just not there on the fit and finish.

Ok, in that case how about good glass in the case of a S&B, but maybe a less than ideal reticle?

I still see a few PMII floating around under $2500 with a P4l fine reticle. That would NOT be my first choice in a reticle, as I would like a MSR style....
 
Ok, in that case how about good glass in the case of a S&B, but maybe a less than ideal reticle?

I still see a few PMII floating around under $2500 with a P4l fine reticle. That would NOT be my first choice in a reticle, as I would like a MSR style....
Hm, this would have been easier 10 years ago when automatic transmissions sucked. LOL!

Reticle is probably more important than glass. If you don't like or cant use your reticle well, the fuck does it matter how crisp or clear what you're looking at is?
 
The only issue I have with those damn Razor Gen2's is that once I tried one it is the only scope I can live with on my rifles so now I have 3, and the corresponding pain in my wallet. I wanted to try the AMG for my last purchase but I couldn't do it because I have so much faith in these. I will take anyone at face value if they say they have issues but frankly I havent seen it in any of mine.
 
Hi everyone, this is Dave and Vortex and I’d like to weigh in here.
First, I’d like to say that the people at Vortex are absolutely committed to giving the best product and the best service in the world to our customers. Many of our employees, including myself, have been in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq and know firsthand the importance of equipment that has the best reliability as humanly possible. With that said there never has been a perfect product ever made, and there never will be. We could literally fail every product ever made by any brand, if we looked hard enough. Every single product ever made, previous, now, and in the future, will fail under the right conditions or given enough use. I learned that first hand in critical combat situations. I had to adapt to the situation and make the mission happen.
So, what we do for you is strive to make our products the best they possibly can be and we give the best customer service, not because we put junk in a box, but because it’s the right thing to do. This is not a movie, it’s real life, and if we had the warranty we did with junk in a box we literally would not be able to stay in business (in real life). In addition, there are more examples than I can count where the customer damaged the scope and we will literally replace it with no questions asked (and without making you feel stupid...I've broken things due to my own fault too). Some examples:
  • Dropping product off a huge cliff – replaced no questions asked
  • Leaving a brand new purchased PST in the box on tailgate as customer drives away and it falls off in an intersection and is run over for about an hour. Scope crushed. – replaced no questions asked.
  • Customer torqued rings using FOOT pounds torque wrench, crushing scope tube. Scope replaced no questions asked.
  • Basically, if you buy a Vortex product you will have a product to use for the rest of your life no matter what.
We do this because we genuinely care about our customers and want them to have the absolute best experience possible in an imperfect world. Looking at how many scopes we have sold (and we sell as many or more than any other brand) our failure rate is far below 1%. Are some of the scopes never sent back? Sure! Are some scopes sitting in safes most of their existence? Sure! However, we still see very little failures and have other evidence that our failure rate is way below 1%. We have a huge amount of people that use our products, regularly, and successfully with no problems. When you have a ton of scopes out there the percentage can still be small but the number can be relatively high. In the day-in-age of the internet everything gets reported and can seem like a big number. People tend to report the negative and never the positive.

We do occasionally have customers with repeat problems. So, what’s that all about? On the clear majority of occasions such as these (which are actually quite small) we have found there is something very unique going on with the customer’s situation. This is not to bash the customer or say it’s their fault, at all. Scopes, rifles, other shooting equipment, and shooting in general are quite complicated and there are countless variables that can contribute to a problem (more variables than any brand or engineering group can account for if they are being honest). Most of the time in these situations we find something like one of the following:
  • Customer lapped their quality rings
  • Customer used vertically split rings
  • Customer over-torqued rings (yes, sometimes they use a FOOT pounds torque wrench or no torque wrench at all). I’ve been that guy that doesn’t have a wrench and I think my Mark 1 torque fingers are highly calibrated to make it happen….and then I screw it up (covered by our warranty! And we won’t make you feel stupid for doing it because we have been that guy too)
  • It could even be a very unique rifle, caliber, mount, scope combo that is causing a very unique and specific resonance frequency causing a problem with the scope. Again, there are countess variables and there are bound to be strange situations that will pop up.
So, what can we do for you in these situations? First, we never give the customer a hard time. If this is you in this thread, call us up! Put us to the challenge to help you out! We have actual human beings, in a menu tree 1 button deep (most of which are huge shooting enthusiasts themselves) to answer the phone and help you out by walking you through your situation. Our people will not belittle you or your situation. I’ve probably done more dumb things than you, anyway. Like I said, shooting can be complicated and we know that, so we will graciously do whatever we can to help you.
  • We have a FFL. We often have a customer send us their rifle and we mount their scope (a new one if needed). Then we will go out and shoot that setup for you and send you the target. After this we will send the rifle and scope back (all mounted up) and walk you through anything we learned along the way to get you up and shooting. We do this quite often actually and this is a great way we can often find the issue with the setup that is causing the problem.
  • If this doesn’t solve the problem, we have upgraded customers to a different product for no additional cost.
  • If this doesn’t work (which rarely happens) we will refund your money.
  • We literally offer a no risk experience.
  • We aren’t magicians so we can’t give you your time back, but we will do everything we can, short of sorcery, to make you happy. I have even bought ammo for a customer before to replace what they used up.
The bottom line here is that we will go out of our way to make sure you are happy with your product and are able to operate the way you need to. This is not a warranty on a box. Again, this is not a movie, it’s real life and bad things can and do happen. We do everything we can to make the experience better.
I’ll also point out that what we learn over time we constantly apply to make products better. I believe the product that started this thread was a Viper HS and the OP also referred to the Gen 1 PST. Our current Gen II PST is a big leap in performance and quality over the Gen 1 PST (which is an almost 10-year-old product).
Lastly, to the OP, give us a call and let us help you out. We live in an imperfect world and no product will ever be perfect. Eventually, with enough use, every product can and will fail (any brand, and type of product…not just shooting products). However, we will do everything we can to get you where you want to be. If there is something unique with your situation we will see if we can walk you through it and get your product working for you. Thank you

Dave
This reply is why I have 4 scopes from Vortex. I've only sent one back for repair and the repair was handled flawlessly.

Thanks Vortex !
 
I trust that Dave/Vortex are keeping track of which scopes are problematic and keeping track of the problems their scopes repeatedly have. And if so, will identify those and engineer a fix to those. That's just good business. They can't fix 'stupid' (driving over your scope, torquing the rings in foot pounds,etc).

I also agree with a member here who commented about 'trolls' and believe that could be part of the 'issue with Vortex'. That said there is definitely problems and they seem associated with the lower priced Vortex scopes. These problems are magnified when the lower priced scope, broken, is compared to a tier one scope of another maker (an apple to orange thing). I became a range officer this year and my first day showed up with my rifle and Vortex scope. The rangemaster I was working with asked what scope I had and I told him a Vortex. He was an old geezer (I can say that because I am an old geezer, he was just older). First thing he says to me was he saw nothing but problems with those Vortex scopes. I said that I wondered whether the problems were with their lower end scopes. He thought a minute and agreed. I worked the rest of the season at the range and shot there as well and never saw any problems with any Vortex scope. Nor any other scope for that matter.

I own a Razor HD, 5-20x50 and it has been hitch and glitch free. Was going to sell it to my army buddy after buying a Kahles 624. But could not part with my Razor. So, I bought my army buddy a new Razor and sold it to him at the price we agreed upon had he bought mine used ( he is an army buddy, that means something). Anyway, I just got back from spending two months with him shooting our rifles topped with our Vortex Razors and we are both happy shooters. Even though I now own a $3000 Kahles, I will not be parting with my Vortex Razor.

I'd be leery of buying any brand midrange or low range scope. High end, not so much. My experience and my2centsworth. Kudos to Dave for his comment here. Companies that don't care, don't comment in cyberspace forums.
 
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If a customer buys a company's low-mid end scope and has nothing but problems with it, they'd be hardly inspired to jump to that same company's high end line.

Yes but what one of the other high end scope makers make tactical style scopes in the $500-1000? S&B? TT? NF? USO? Kahles? Hensoldt? See where I am going? Vortex offers shooters a wide variety of scopes form $199 to $2500. You can only judge each by their own performance.
 
Yes but what one of the other high end scope makers make tactical style scopes in the $500-1000? S&B? TT? NF? USO? Kahles? Hensoldt? See where I am going? Vortex offers shooters a wide variety of scopes form $199 to $2500. You can only judge each by their own performance.

Off the top of my head, Nightforce has scopes that can be had in the 750-1200 range and they're rock solid.
SWFA has scopes from 280-1500 and they're solid across the board.
 
Off the top of my head, Nightforce has scopes that can be had in the 750-1200 range and they're rock solid.
SWFA has scopes from 280-1500 and they're solid across the board.

Do they have all the features that a PST has? Illuminated reticle, FFP, zero stop, etc? I’m guessing that they don’t.

My point is that the Vortex PST type scope is a great VALUE. Lots of features for a resonable price. However, if you asked ME my OPINION I would say it still isn’t in the same class as those you mentioned.

That’s the thing with these topics, it’s all based on opinions and expectations and not so much on empirical data and facts.
 
Off the top of my head, Nightforce has scopes that can be had in the 750-1200 range and they're rock solid.
SWFA has scopes from 280-1500 and they're solid across the board.

SWFA is not a top tier scope.

The NF SHV are decent scopes but not rock solid either. They only offer a couple in that lower than $1000 range. But I guess my point was missed if you are nit picking a couple scopes.