"how would I respond if he were standing in front of me"
That’s why my screen name is my full name...if I say it online, I’ll say the same in person...I don’t want there to be any confusion
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"how would I respond if he were standing in front of me"
I battled for over a year with this. But once i got the K624i SKMR3 mounted i was kicking myself for not doing it sooner. The improved glass quality instantly helped me improve shooting beyond 600 yards.
How is an extra $1500 put into the optical clarity going to make that much difference between hits and misses?
How is an extra $1500 put into the optical clarity going to make that much difference between hits and misses?
It's wont, it's mostly in your head.
Glass quality in todays $1000+ rifle scopes is, for the most part, very good across the board. There are a few scopes out there that have a slight edge in optical quality but its not a night and day difference, nor a hit or miss difference. I'd venture to guess the guy you quoted became more confident in his gear and/or replaced a poor quality optic which resulted in better overall performance.
I agree 100% with Jafo96. Falex has been nothing but a vortex troll for a number of years now. He has admitted that he personally has had two supposed issues with Vortex scopes that were not issues at all. My guess is that he is butt hurt that vortex didnt give him new scopes for his user error. In his head he is convinced that the scopes were broke and they should have given him new ones. Yet admitted with CUSTOMER SERVICE phone help the scopes were fine. It's either this or he is an entitled millennial that started shooting PRS and asked Vortex to sponsor him and they said no. So now Vortex is evil because they dont realize how great he is.
Chris
I wish I could understand this. All my shooting at distance up to 600 yards has been NRA high power service rifle, so no optics. I have never spent any time behind any optic other than a red dot.
I'm currently trying to figure out where my money is best spent on an optic for my JH. If I go the route of a Steiner T5xi or Cronus BTR I have saved $1500 over the price of a Kahles, which translates into 1200 rounds of Prime 6.5 creedmoor. That's a LOT of time behind the gun.
How is an extra $1500 put into the optical clarity going to make that much difference between hits and misses?
It’s like a Hensoldt Spotter. You don’t know what you’re missing til you’ve seen it.
I'd say this a good analogy. Corvettes still go just as fast, but they're just not there on the fit and finish.I'm not a "great glass" hater. Some of those optics are very impressive. If you have the money and want one, do it. But from a performance perspective, the right $1000 to $1500 will allow you to do everything the more expensive optic will do. Their just Corvettes instead of Ferraris.
i agree with Bird...99.9% of the time having "decent enough" glass isnt going to hurt you, but at times if the situation is just right, it could make things a little more difficult. accurate tracking and durability are still above glass in my book, always will be
I'd say this a good analogy. Corvettes still go just as fast, but they're just not there on the fit and finish.
Hm, this would have been easier 10 years ago when automatic transmissions sucked. LOL!Ok, in that case how about good glass in the case of a S&B, but maybe a less than ideal reticle?
I still see a few PMII floating around under $2500 with a P4l fine reticle. That would NOT be my first choice in a reticle, as I would like a MSR style....
This reply is why I have 4 scopes from Vortex. I've only sent one back for repair and the repair was handled flawlessly.Hi everyone, this is Dave and Vortex and I’d like to weigh in here.
First, I’d like to say that the people at Vortex are absolutely committed to giving the best product and the best service in the world to our customers. Many of our employees, including myself, have been in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq and know firsthand the importance of equipment that has the best reliability as humanly possible. With that said there never has been a perfect product ever made, and there never will be. We could literally fail every product ever made by any brand, if we looked hard enough. Every single product ever made, previous, now, and in the future, will fail under the right conditions or given enough use. I learned that first hand in critical combat situations. I had to adapt to the situation and make the mission happen.
So, what we do for you is strive to make our products the best they possibly can be and we give the best customer service, not because we put junk in a box, but because it’s the right thing to do. This is not a movie, it’s real life, and if we had the warranty we did with junk in a box we literally would not be able to stay in business (in real life). In addition, there are more examples than I can count where the customer damaged the scope and we will literally replace it with no questions asked (and without making you feel stupid...I've broken things due to my own fault too). Some examples:
We do this because we genuinely care about our customers and want them to have the absolute best experience possible in an imperfect world. Looking at how many scopes we have sold (and we sell as many or more than any other brand) our failure rate is far below 1%. Are some of the scopes never sent back? Sure! Are some scopes sitting in safes most of their existence? Sure! However, we still see very little failures and have other evidence that our failure rate is way below 1%. We have a huge amount of people that use our products, regularly, and successfully with no problems. When you have a ton of scopes out there the percentage can still be small but the number can be relatively high. In the day-in-age of the internet everything gets reported and can seem like a big number. People tend to report the negative and never the positive.
- Dropping product off a huge cliff – replaced no questions asked
- Leaving a brand new purchased PST in the box on tailgate as customer drives away and it falls off in an intersection and is run over for about an hour. Scope crushed. – replaced no questions asked.
- Customer torqued rings using FOOT pounds torque wrench, crushing scope tube. Scope replaced no questions asked.
- Basically, if you buy a Vortex product you will have a product to use for the rest of your life no matter what.
We do occasionally have customers with repeat problems. So, what’s that all about? On the clear majority of occasions such as these (which are actually quite small) we have found there is something very unique going on with the customer’s situation. This is not to bash the customer or say it’s their fault, at all. Scopes, rifles, other shooting equipment, and shooting in general are quite complicated and there are countless variables that can contribute to a problem (more variables than any brand or engineering group can account for if they are being honest). Most of the time in these situations we find something like one of the following:
So, what can we do for you in these situations? First, we never give the customer a hard time. If this is you in this thread, call us up! Put us to the challenge to help you out! We have actual human beings, in a menu tree 1 button deep (most of which are huge shooting enthusiasts themselves) to answer the phone and help you out by walking you through your situation. Our people will not belittle you or your situation. I’ve probably done more dumb things than you, anyway. Like I said, shooting can be complicated and we know that, so we will graciously do whatever we can to help you.
- Customer lapped their quality rings
- Customer used vertically split rings
- Customer over-torqued rings (yes, sometimes they use a FOOT pounds torque wrench or no torque wrench at all). I’ve been that guy that doesn’t have a wrench and I think my Mark 1 torque fingers are highly calibrated to make it happen….and then I screw it up (covered by our warranty! And we won’t make you feel stupid for doing it because we have been that guy too)
- It could even be a very unique rifle, caliber, mount, scope combo that is causing a very unique and specific resonance frequency causing a problem with the scope. Again, there are countess variables and there are bound to be strange situations that will pop up.
The bottom line here is that we will go out of our way to make sure you are happy with your product and are able to operate the way you need to. This is not a warranty on a box. Again, this is not a movie, it’s real life and bad things can and do happen. We do everything we can to make the experience better.
- We have a FFL. We often have a customer send us their rifle and we mount their scope (a new one if needed). Then we will go out and shoot that setup for you and send you the target. After this we will send the rifle and scope back (all mounted up) and walk you through anything we learned along the way to get you up and shooting. We do this quite often actually and this is a great way we can often find the issue with the setup that is causing the problem.
- If this doesn’t solve the problem, we have upgraded customers to a different product for no additional cost.
- If this doesn’t work (which rarely happens) we will refund your money.
- We literally offer a no risk experience.
- We aren’t magicians so we can’t give you your time back, but we will do everything we can, short of sorcery, to make you happy. I have even bought ammo for a customer before to replace what they used up.
I’ll also point out that what we learn over time we constantly apply to make products better. I believe the product that started this thread was a Viper HS and the OP also referred to the Gen 1 PST. Our current Gen II PST is a big leap in performance and quality over the Gen 1 PST (which is an almost 10-year-old product).
Lastly, to the OP, give us a call and let us help you out. We live in an imperfect world and no product will ever be perfect. Eventually, with enough use, every product can and will fail (any brand, and type of product…not just shooting products). However, we will do everything we can to get you where you want to be. If there is something unique with your situation we will see if we can walk you through it and get your product working for you. Thank you
Dave
If a customer buys a company's low-mid end scope and has nothing but problems with it, they'd be hardly inspired to jump to that same company's high end line.
Yes but what one of the other high end scope makers make tactical style scopes in the $500-1000? S&B? TT? NF? USO? Kahles? Hensoldt? See where I am going? Vortex offers shooters a wide variety of scopes form $199 to $2500. You can only judge each by their own performance.
Off the top of my head, Nightforce has scopes that can be had in the 750-1200 range and they're rock solid.
SWFA has scopes from 280-1500 and they're solid across the board.
Off the top of my head, Nightforce has scopes that can be had in the 750-1200 range and they're rock solid.
SWFA has scopes from 280-1500 and they're solid across the board.
If a customer buys a company's low-mid end scope and has nothing but problems with it, they'd be hardly inspired to jump to that same company's high end line.