Okay, so it's a scope level. The fancy name somehow makes it worth $130. I don't get it? Do I really need to pay the money for one or does anyone have any good suggestions on building something that would work just as well? I understand the importance of making sure that you are level and if it comes down to it, I'll buy one but I'd rather save a few bucks and spend it on a .223 primer or something.
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Anti-cant device
- Thread starter HawkDriver
- Start date
Re: Anti-cant device
There have been a few questions about anti-cant levels and there seem to be two distinct opinions:
One is that they are an unnecessary crutch and are only masking other defects in one's technique and the second is that they are useful.
As for me I fall in to the camp that they are useful. After a serious eye injury that has left me with vision issues that affect my depth perception and near vision I found that an anti-cant helped me. That is strictly my experience and I absolutely attribute it to the injury.
As far as how much to pay - that is a personal decision. I tried less expensive ones and eventually went to the USO rail mounted ones but found they were not particularly accurate. I sold those off and have been using the Flatline Ops series of levels and have found that they are accurate given that they have a fine adjust to help get it dialed in. They are not cheap however but most of everything these days isn't.
There have been a few questions about anti-cant levels and there seem to be two distinct opinions:
One is that they are an unnecessary crutch and are only masking other defects in one's technique and the second is that they are useful.
As for me I fall in to the camp that they are useful. After a serious eye injury that has left me with vision issues that affect my depth perception and near vision I found that an anti-cant helped me. That is strictly my experience and I absolutely attribute it to the injury.
As far as how much to pay - that is a personal decision. I tried less expensive ones and eventually went to the USO rail mounted ones but found they were not particularly accurate. I sold those off and have been using the Flatline Ops series of levels and have found that they are accurate given that they have a fine adjust to help get it dialed in. They are not cheap however but most of everything these days isn't.
Re: Anti-cant device
According to Todd Hodnett with Accuracy First (per Magpul Dynamics Art of the Precision Rifle), every 5 degrees of cant equates to 0.1 mil of lateral displacement every 100 yards. This means that at 800 yards, 5 degrees of can't is almost 1 mil off on windage.
On flat ground states, I probably wouldn't worry about having one. However, I hunt in the Tennessee Mountains where I might be on uneven ground slantingto the left, and the target might be on uneven ground slanting to the right. This has caused clean misses with no wind as close as 500 yards. A quick check with my cell phone bubble level would show that I was 8 degrees off.
Now, I may fully well be a tard, but the fact remains that for long range precision in mountainous or uneven terrain, they are an absolute must. In those conditions, even the trees grow at an angle and you have zero vertical and horizontal references.
If all you shoot are flat ranges, save your money.
According to Todd Hodnett with Accuracy First (per Magpul Dynamics Art of the Precision Rifle), every 5 degrees of cant equates to 0.1 mil of lateral displacement every 100 yards. This means that at 800 yards, 5 degrees of can't is almost 1 mil off on windage.
On flat ground states, I probably wouldn't worry about having one. However, I hunt in the Tennessee Mountains where I might be on uneven ground slantingto the left, and the target might be on uneven ground slanting to the right. This has caused clean misses with no wind as close as 500 yards. A quick check with my cell phone bubble level would show that I was 8 degrees off.
Now, I may fully well be a tard, but the fact remains that for long range precision in mountainous or uneven terrain, they are an absolute must. In those conditions, even the trees grow at an angle and you have zero vertical and horizontal references.
If all you shoot are flat ranges, save your money.
Re: Anti-cant device
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, so it's a scope level. The fancy name somehow makes it worth $130. I don't get it? Do I really need to pay the money for one or does anyone have any good suggestions on building something that would work just as well? I understand the importance of making sure that you are level and if it comes down to it, I'll buy one but I'd rather save a few bucks and spend it on a .223 primer or something. </div></div>
Buy primers......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, so it's a scope level. The fancy name somehow makes it worth $130. I don't get it? Do I really need to pay the money for one or does anyone have any good suggestions on building something that would work just as well? I understand the importance of making sure that you are level and if it comes down to it, I'll buy one but I'd rather save a few bucks and spend it on a .223 primer or something. </div></div>
Buy primers......
Re: Anti-cant device
Any one who thinks these levels are just a gimmack should try some shooting a BPCR Creedmor Match (800, 900, 1000 yards) with a 45 cal 535 grn bullet that leaves the muzzle about 1200 fps and then ask yourself it they are needed.
I have some of SINCLAIR OFFSET SCOPE LEVEL's from Brownells, they are less then 30 bucks and WORK.
Any one who thinks these levels are just a gimmack should try some shooting a BPCR Creedmor Match (800, 900, 1000 yards) with a 45 cal 535 grn bullet that leaves the muzzle about 1200 fps and then ask yourself it they are needed.
I have some of SINCLAIR OFFSET SCOPE LEVEL's from Brownells, they are less then 30 bucks and WORK.
Re: Anti-cant device
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PGS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, so it's a scope level. The fancy name somehow makes it worth $130. I don't get it? Do I really need to pay the money for one or does anyone have any good suggestions on building something that would work just as well? I understand the importance of making sure that you are level and if it comes down to it, I'll buy one but I'd rather save a few bucks and spend it on a .223 primer or something. </div></div>
Buy primers...... </div></div>
Probably a primer with today's prices...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PGS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, so it's a scope level. The fancy name somehow makes it worth $130. I don't get it? Do I really need to pay the money for one or does anyone have any good suggestions on building something that would work just as well? I understand the importance of making sure that you are level and if it comes down to it, I'll buy one but I'd rather save a few bucks and spend it on a .223 primer or something. </div></div>
Buy primers...... </div></div>
Probably a primer with today's prices...
Re: Anti-cant device
Just to be clear here are we talking about a level to level your scope when mounting on the rifle or are we talking about a level that lets you know if you are holding the rifle at a cant? Most people tend to hold the rifle at a cant naturally, at least to some extent. And, as someone already mentioned they can be useful at long range. You will not always be sitting at a bench with your gun in a vise or whatever to shoot from. So, you want everything to be as in your favor as possible. I am a little on the fence about this myself, but not because I do not think they work. The reason I have reservations about them is because it just adds to the multitude of tools you already have to pay attention to. In that respect, I think it could slow you down if you were using said weapon to hunt with or in some extreme case for sniping as protection. I mean snipers have been doing fine without such tools for a long time. I mean if it ever came down to it, and I was in battle engaging multiple targets at a time I am already at a disadvantage because while they are advancing on my position I am constantly having to reload, adjust aim, possibly have to adjust scope, calculate, etc. so the last thing I want to be adding is more stuff to do. Again, a lot of this will depend on use and terrain. They have their usefulness but it would depend on the point it was being used for.
As far as how much to pay, unfortunately these days nothing is cheap. it may be cheaply made but definitely not cheap to buy. I am with you on the fact that a lot of stuff in this industry/hobby seems very expensive for what it is, but I also know you have to pay to play.
Just to be clear here are we talking about a level to level your scope when mounting on the rifle or are we talking about a level that lets you know if you are holding the rifle at a cant? Most people tend to hold the rifle at a cant naturally, at least to some extent. And, as someone already mentioned they can be useful at long range. You will not always be sitting at a bench with your gun in a vise or whatever to shoot from. So, you want everything to be as in your favor as possible. I am a little on the fence about this myself, but not because I do not think they work. The reason I have reservations about them is because it just adds to the multitude of tools you already have to pay attention to. In that respect, I think it could slow you down if you were using said weapon to hunt with or in some extreme case for sniping as protection. I mean snipers have been doing fine without such tools for a long time. I mean if it ever came down to it, and I was in battle engaging multiple targets at a time I am already at a disadvantage because while they are advancing on my position I am constantly having to reload, adjust aim, possibly have to adjust scope, calculate, etc. so the last thing I want to be adding is more stuff to do. Again, a lot of this will depend on use and terrain. They have their usefulness but it would depend on the point it was being used for.
As far as how much to pay, unfortunately these days nothing is cheap. it may be cheaply made but definitely not cheap to buy. I am with you on the fact that a lot of stuff in this industry/hobby seems very expensive for what it is, but I also know you have to pay to play.
Re: Anti-cant device
I was thinking about taking apart a small bubble level from lowes and epoxy or hot glue or both to attach to to a cheap set of rings from Walmart.
I was thinking about taking apart a small bubble level from lowes and epoxy or hot glue or both to attach to to a cheap set of rings from Walmart.
Re: Anti-cant device
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was thinking about taking apart a small bubble level from lowes and epoxy or hot glue or both to attach to to a cheap set of rings from Walmart. </div></div>
If you're going to do it, spend the 30 bucks on something that's designed to meet the need. Hot glue and epoxy aren't known for repeatable readings at hundreds of yards on a shooting range.
If the 30 dollar level from sinclair is too expensive, maybe save up or don't get one. Don't half ass it to save a few dollars.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was thinking about taking apart a small bubble level from lowes and epoxy or hot glue or both to attach to to a cheap set of rings from Walmart. </div></div>
If you're going to do it, spend the 30 bucks on something that's designed to meet the need. Hot glue and epoxy aren't known for repeatable readings at hundreds of yards on a shooting range.
If the 30 dollar level from sinclair is too expensive, maybe save up or don't get one. Don't half ass it to save a few dollars.
Re: Anti-cant device
It's not that it's too expensive. I just don't know if it is worth it both literally and figuratively. I am talking more about the Flatline Ops that seem to be the Cadillac of scope levels. As for half assing something, they had to start somewhere and just because someone has the latest and greatest doesn't mean the crude, field expedient methods are obsolete. Come on its a bubble level! It is high tech water with a high tech calibrated bubble in it? Maybe I am way off base here, but I feel like this in one of those things that doesn't need to cost an arm and a leg. $30 is reasonable but $130 not so much.
It's not that it's too expensive. I just don't know if it is worth it both literally and figuratively. I am talking more about the Flatline Ops that seem to be the Cadillac of scope levels. As for half assing something, they had to start somewhere and just because someone has the latest and greatest doesn't mean the crude, field expedient methods are obsolete. Come on its a bubble level! It is high tech water with a high tech calibrated bubble in it? Maybe I am way off base here, but I feel like this in one of those things that doesn't need to cost an arm and a leg. $30 is reasonable but $130 not so much.
Re: Anti-cant device
If you want to try to jimmy something up, go for it. If nobody tried to do things on their own, we wouldn't have all the fun toys we have today. Maybe you'll come up with a better mouse trap. That being said, this is not a cheap sport/hobby, and if you have a $4000 gun with a $3000 optic and shoot $3000 worth of ammo a year and a $400 tripod setup, then in the scheme of things $30-$60 isn't that big of a deal. For me, the time/effort/driving ect wouldn't be worth the $30 of having one sent to my door. I'll agree that the creative side of me always wants to try to put my own twist on things though. So have it and let us know what you come up with.
If you want to try to jimmy something up, go for it. If nobody tried to do things on their own, we wouldn't have all the fun toys we have today. Maybe you'll come up with a better mouse trap. That being said, this is not a cheap sport/hobby, and if you have a $4000 gun with a $3000 optic and shoot $3000 worth of ammo a year and a $400 tripod setup, then in the scheme of things $30-$60 isn't that big of a deal. For me, the time/effort/driving ect wouldn't be worth the $30 of having one sent to my door. I'll agree that the creative side of me always wants to try to put my own twist on things though. So have it and let us know what you come up with.
Re: Anti-cant device
I guess you could always try a radiator clamp and maybe a cheap hardware store bubble level, but I don't know how accurate that would be. I'm sure it will look ugly, at the very least.
I guess you could always try a radiator clamp and maybe a cheap hardware store bubble level, but I don't know how accurate that would be. I'm sure it will look ugly, at the very least.
Re: Anti-cant device
I wouldnt use anything other then something actually designed for this purpose if you mount it yourself and it is not perfectly perpindicular to the rifle it can give erronesous readings. Ensuring your rifle and therefore optic is level is an important part of breaking a clean accurate shot. If you only intend to shoot 100 yards on a flat range then dont bother. If you are however serious about long range shooting, competitions, or anything of that nature a level is invaluable. Also if you are shooting a $300 rifle with a $50 tasco its probably not that important but if you are shooting a decent rifle with a decent scope it is an accessorie well worth the $30.
You shouldnt look at the most expensive version of something and say you dont need it thats like saying you dont need a scope on your precision bolt gun because a S&B is over $3000. There are plenty of cheaper options than that S&B that are still great quality and highly effective.
I wouldnt use anything other then something actually designed for this purpose if you mount it yourself and it is not perfectly perpindicular to the rifle it can give erronesous readings. Ensuring your rifle and therefore optic is level is an important part of breaking a clean accurate shot. If you only intend to shoot 100 yards on a flat range then dont bother. If you are however serious about long range shooting, competitions, or anything of that nature a level is invaluable. Also if you are shooting a $300 rifle with a $50 tasco its probably not that important but if you are shooting a decent rifle with a decent scope it is an accessorie well worth the $30.
You shouldnt look at the most expensive version of something and say you dont need it thats like saying you dont need a scope on your precision bolt gun because a S&B is over $3000. There are plenty of cheaper options than that S&B that are still great quality and highly effective.
Re: Anti-cant device
I am using the one from accuracy 1st. As someone who is some what new to long range shooting it is invaluable. I also tend to find myself shooting long range in uneven terrain. I figured $100 for a scope level is fair considering what I spent on my rifle and scope.
I am using the one from accuracy 1st. As someone who is some what new to long range shooting it is invaluable. I also tend to find myself shooting long range in uneven terrain. I figured $100 for a scope level is fair considering what I spent on my rifle and scope.
Re: Anti-cant device
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JTarr340</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to Todd Hodnett with Accuracy First (per Magpul Dynamics Art of the Precision Rifle), every 5 degrees of cant equates to 0.1 mil of lateral displacement every 100 yards. This means that at 800 yards, 5 degrees of can't is almost 1 mil off on windage.
</div></div>
This is not correct. The degree of error from cant depends on the drop at the range you are talking about. I did the math and made a chart once. At 100 yards, the error is marginal, at 1,000 yards, it can be quite significant, especially with a 308.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JTarr340</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to Todd Hodnett with Accuracy First (per Magpul Dynamics Art of the Precision Rifle), every 5 degrees of cant equates to 0.1 mil of lateral displacement every 100 yards. This means that at 800 yards, 5 degrees of can't is almost 1 mil off on windage.
</div></div>
This is not correct. The degree of error from cant depends on the drop at the range you are talking about. I did the math and made a chart once. At 100 yards, the error is marginal, at 1,000 yards, it can be quite significant, especially with a 308.
Re: Anti-cant device
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JTarr340</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to Todd Hodnett with Accuracy First (per Magpul Dynamics Art of the Precision Rifle), every 5 degrees of cant equates to 0.1 mil of lateral displacement every 100 yards. This means that at 800 yards, 5 degrees of can't is almost 1 mil off on windage.
</div></div>
This is not correct. The degree of error from cant depends on the drop at the range you are talking about. I did the math and made a chart once. At 100 yards, the error is marginal, at 1,000 yards, it can be quite significant, especially with a 308.</div></div>
I would just refrence this with any questions:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/optics/canting-effect-on-point-of-impact/
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bryan Litz confirms Tubb’s observation. Bryan tells us that, as a general rule of thumb (for common cartridges), a 1° cant will produce five (5) inches of lateral displacement at 1000 yards. Thus, if you cant your rifle just 8°, the POI would move 40″ from the center of the target, putting the shot off the edge of a 72″-wide target.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JTarr340</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to Todd Hodnett with Accuracy First (per Magpul Dynamics Art of the Precision Rifle), every 5 degrees of cant equates to 0.1 mil of lateral displacement every 100 yards. This means that at 800 yards, 5 degrees of can't is almost 1 mil off on windage.
</div></div>
This is not correct. The degree of error from cant depends on the drop at the range you are talking about. I did the math and made a chart once. At 100 yards, the error is marginal, at 1,000 yards, it can be quite significant, especially with a 308.</div></div>
I would just refrence this with any questions:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/optics/canting-effect-on-point-of-impact/
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bryan Litz confirms Tubb’s observation. Bryan tells us that, as a general rule of thumb (for common cartridges), a 1° cant will produce five (5) inches of lateral displacement at 1000 yards. Thus, if you cant your rifle just 8°, the POI would move 40″ from the center of the target, putting the shot off the edge of a 72″-wide target.
</div></div>
Re: Anti-cant device
I would say use it if you are going to be shooting on uneven ground and don't worry about it if shooting from a bench, if you think you may want it. Just get one of the $30 ones from Sinclair. If you dont then feel that you need it, post it up here and I'm sure someone will buy it.
I would say use it if you are going to be shooting on uneven ground and don't worry about it if shooting from a bench, if you think you may want it. Just get one of the $30 ones from Sinclair. If you dont then feel that you need it, post it up here and I'm sure someone will buy it.
Re: Anti-cant device
Litz's rule of thumb holds pretty well for me. I calculate 8.3" of horizontal per 1 degree of cant at 1,000 yards for a 175SMK going 2,600 fps at my 1,000 yard range's altitude at standard barometric pressures. A flatter shooting rifle would have less at longer range.
At 100 yards, the difference for 1 degree is a little less than .1 inches, or .02 mils, which is why you don't see many ACD's at benchrest comps. I did not, by the way, factor in mechanical offset, which would be significant at 100 yards, less so for 1,000.
BTW, this is why I do use an ACD on my 22lr... at 100 yards, 1 degree of cant is equal to .3". At 200 yards, it is 1.3"! Even at 50 yards, it is .1", which is significant for precision shooters shooting at 50 yards.
Litz's rule of thumb holds pretty well for me. I calculate 8.3" of horizontal per 1 degree of cant at 1,000 yards for a 175SMK going 2,600 fps at my 1,000 yard range's altitude at standard barometric pressures. A flatter shooting rifle would have less at longer range.
At 100 yards, the difference for 1 degree is a little less than .1 inches, or .02 mils, which is why you don't see many ACD's at benchrest comps. I did not, by the way, factor in mechanical offset, which would be significant at 100 yards, less so for 1,000.
BTW, this is why I do use an ACD on my 22lr... at 100 yards, 1 degree of cant is equal to .3". At 200 yards, it is 1.3"! Even at 50 yards, it is .1", which is significant for precision shooters shooting at 50 yards.
Re: Anti-cant device
I'll never forget the first time I installed a pin sight with a bubble level on my compound bow years ago. I was shocked how many times I had thought "of course its level" only to look at the bubble showing me REALITY. I'm a big believer that if you're shooting long range with a rifle, that a bubble level can make a real difference. If you're plinking 4x4 steel plates @ 300 yds, it might not matter...
I'll never forget the first time I installed a pin sight with a bubble level on my compound bow years ago. I was shocked how many times I had thought "of course its level" only to look at the bubble showing me REALITY. I'm a big believer that if you're shooting long range with a rifle, that a bubble level can make a real difference. If you're plinking 4x4 steel plates @ 300 yds, it might not matter...
Re: Anti-cant device
The guys who make the Whiz Wheel also sell a anti-cant level. Instead of a bubble it uses a ceramic disc. It's resolution is a little better than 1 deg. They are a little spendy at $95, but they give discounts to military and veterans.
Mark Deros used to make a simple electronic anti-cant device. If you canted your rifle more than 1 deg a small red LED would be lit, if you were in true a green LED was lit. It ran on small watch batteries that lasted a 1000 hrs of use. He made different versions that allowed for more or less give depending on application (hunting, sniping, bench). If memory serves they were around $100. I don't know if he still makes them.
The guys who make the Whiz Wheel also sell a anti-cant level. Instead of a bubble it uses a ceramic disc. It's resolution is a little better than 1 deg. They are a little spendy at $95, but they give discounts to military and veterans.
Mark Deros used to make a simple electronic anti-cant device. If you canted your rifle more than 1 deg a small red LED would be lit, if you were in true a green LED was lit. It ran on small watch batteries that lasted a 1000 hrs of use. He made different versions that allowed for more or less give depending on application (hunting, sniping, bench). If memory serves they were around $100. I don't know if he still makes them.
Re: Anti-cant device
The Mark Deros ACD is called the level grouse. It works great until you run out of batteries. Always remember to keep a fresh set in your stock pack.
The Mark Deros ACD is called the level grouse. It works great until you run out of batteries. Always remember to keep a fresh set in your stock pack.
Re: Anti-cant device
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VTSEAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll never forget the first time I installed a pin sight with a bubble level on my compound bow years ago. I was shocked how many times I had thought "of course its level" only to look at the bubble showing me REALITY. I'm a big believer that if you're shooting long range with a rifle, that a bubble level can make a real difference. If you're plinking 4x4 steel plates @ 300 yds, it might not matter... </div></div>
I agree. Never had a bubble level on my rifle until I started using my Spuhr mount, which has one built into it. I soon found that what I believed was "perfectly" level wasn't quite so. Even trying to use terrain as a guide for vertical/horizontal positioning proved to be highly inaccurate.
We were shooting at some nuisance p-dogs at around 700 yards (+/- 50 yards on that colony) this week. During that shoot I noticed that when I used the terrain as a guide to "find level", my reticle was anything but. The bubble level definitely helped in that case. Optical illusions are easy enough to encounter when shooting in places that aren't always perfectly level 100-yard ranges.
I guess there's always some argument on how much impact reticle cant has on shot placement. I imagine it is like anything else: the greater the cant and/or distance, the more likely you are to miss your target due to this factor.
As they say, long range shooting is all about variables. The key to success is to eliminate as many variables as you can (and there are plenty).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VTSEAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll never forget the first time I installed a pin sight with a bubble level on my compound bow years ago. I was shocked how many times I had thought "of course its level" only to look at the bubble showing me REALITY. I'm a big believer that if you're shooting long range with a rifle, that a bubble level can make a real difference. If you're plinking 4x4 steel plates @ 300 yds, it might not matter... </div></div>
I agree. Never had a bubble level on my rifle until I started using my Spuhr mount, which has one built into it. I soon found that what I believed was "perfectly" level wasn't quite so. Even trying to use terrain as a guide for vertical/horizontal positioning proved to be highly inaccurate.
We were shooting at some nuisance p-dogs at around 700 yards (+/- 50 yards on that colony) this week. During that shoot I noticed that when I used the terrain as a guide to "find level", my reticle was anything but. The bubble level definitely helped in that case. Optical illusions are easy enough to encounter when shooting in places that aren't always perfectly level 100-yard ranges.
I guess there's always some argument on how much impact reticle cant has on shot placement. I imagine it is like anything else: the greater the cant and/or distance, the more likely you are to miss your target due to this factor.
As they say, long range shooting is all about variables. The key to success is to eliminate as many variables as you can (and there are plenty).
Re: Anti-cant device
Here is the link to Mark's website, and the grouse. But, I have to warn you he is pretty slow on shipping stuff especially if he doesn't have it in stock. The poor man has been backordered on gear for years. The military loves his Dloc stuff and his rifle tripods. He makes great gear and is good people.
http://www.alamofourstar.com/index.php?o...=9&Itemid=2
Here is the link to Mark's website, and the grouse. But, I have to warn you he is pretty slow on shipping stuff especially if he doesn't have it in stock. The poor man has been backordered on gear for years. The military loves his Dloc stuff and his rifle tripods. He makes great gear and is good people.
http://www.alamofourstar.com/index.php?o...=9&Itemid=2
Re: Anti-cant device
Real simple two cents on this. Yes, if you are shooting beyond 800 yards or in uneven terrain and wand to shoot consistently, you need one. Those who think they are a crutch probably shoot on a range off a bench or prone laying on a nice cumfy shooting may on clean manicured grass. Some of us use our optics in more.... Manly circumstances. I was spotting elk this last hunting season at just s title over 600 (the exact number depends on which one in the herd) yards sitting wedged between a log and the side if a hill resting the rifle the log that was by no means level. The elk were at 30 degrees down slope in a clear cut with lots of logs laying in all angles to toy with my mind and on a side hill themselves. Every time I leveled the bubble, my reticle looked lot led far to the left. This was a scenario where technique doesn't help as its unavailable. So yes, they are needed if your using your optic in the field.
As for which one, I like the nightforce one with the angle degree indicator mount on it. I actually use an angle cosine indicator though. If not NF, I like the flatline ops one the you can mount an angle cosine/degree indicator to. They are spends but worth IMO.
Real simple two cents on this. Yes, if you are shooting beyond 800 yards or in uneven terrain and wand to shoot consistently, you need one. Those who think they are a crutch probably shoot on a range off a bench or prone laying on a nice cumfy shooting may on clean manicured grass. Some of us use our optics in more.... Manly circumstances. I was spotting elk this last hunting season at just s title over 600 (the exact number depends on which one in the herd) yards sitting wedged between a log and the side if a hill resting the rifle the log that was by no means level. The elk were at 30 degrees down slope in a clear cut with lots of logs laying in all angles to toy with my mind and on a side hill themselves. Every time I leveled the bubble, my reticle looked lot led far to the left. This was a scenario where technique doesn't help as its unavailable. So yes, they are needed if your using your optic in the field.
As for which one, I like the nightforce one with the angle degree indicator mount on it. I actually use an angle cosine indicator though. If not NF, I like the flatline ops one the you can mount an angle cosine/degree indicator to. They are spends but worth IMO.
Re: Anti-cant device
Spending $60 on a bubble level that can last years upon years that can save you a ton of money on ammo by not constantly missing a shot is ell worth it. You can drop $60 in a bar in about 5 minutes and all you have to show for it is a bladder full of piss and a hangover. $60 of quality ammo lasts a day at the range and then you're left with nothing but empty cases if you're missing the entire time. At least if you spend $60 on a bubble and you're not as efficient with your rifle as some other guys are (just yet) all of your shots will count and you wont be guessing if you're actually on target.
On a side note, I had the Vortex bubble to go with my Vortex scope but the bubble would constantly get stuck to the side so I switched to the Holland and its perfect. I have 3 Hollands and all work flawlessly. If $60 is that much to spend in a sport that is known to be insanely expensive then only shoot .22lr and bb guns.
Spending $60 on a bubble level that can last years upon years that can save you a ton of money on ammo by not constantly missing a shot is ell worth it. You can drop $60 in a bar in about 5 minutes and all you have to show for it is a bladder full of piss and a hangover. $60 of quality ammo lasts a day at the range and then you're left with nothing but empty cases if you're missing the entire time. At least if you spend $60 on a bubble and you're not as efficient with your rifle as some other guys are (just yet) all of your shots will count and you wont be guessing if you're actually on target.
On a side note, I had the Vortex bubble to go with my Vortex scope but the bubble would constantly get stuck to the side so I switched to the Holland and its perfect. I have 3 Hollands and all work flawlessly. If $60 is that much to spend in a sport that is known to be insanely expensive then only shoot .22lr and bb guns.
Re: Anti-cant device
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: badshot338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of us use our optics in more.... Manly circumstances.</div></div>
Really?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: badshot338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of us use our optics in more.... Manly circumstances.</div></div>
Really?
Re: Anti-cant device
I don't think you are gettin my point. I have no problem dropping $60-600 on something. Money isn't the issue, needing it or not also isn't the issue. I was just wondering why they cost so much? Is there a secret that I'm not understanding? It's a bubble level... Building a house is expensive too but you don't see caprenters at Lowes paying $130 for a level. I am goin to buy one and not think twice about it after looking at the numbers, I can see that it is a crucial tool to have in order to put lead on target. The only thing that I can gather is that it's just capitalism and if that's the going price then that's what is charged but I really think the companies putting these out are making a huge profit percentage off of them, and again there isn't anything wrong with that. Good for them.
I don't think you are gettin my point. I have no problem dropping $60-600 on something. Money isn't the issue, needing it or not also isn't the issue. I was just wondering why they cost so much? Is there a secret that I'm not understanding? It's a bubble level... Building a house is expensive too but you don't see caprenters at Lowes paying $130 for a level. I am goin to buy one and not think twice about it after looking at the numbers, I can see that it is a crucial tool to have in order to put lead on target. The only thing that I can gather is that it's just capitalism and if that's the going price then that's what is charged but I really think the companies putting these out are making a huge profit percentage off of them, and again there isn't anything wrong with that. Good for them.
Re: Anti-cant device
The nifty cool looking mount they are attached to is the cost. Some have bragging rights names attached to them and are snazzed up so you have to pay more for that. If you have some equipment it's not hard to make a mount, some are just the top part of rings with the level attached to them. I've seen some that are made from bar stock and milled to attach to the mount and stick out the side. They aren't anything special, as long as it reliably returns to center between the lines and fits well between them nearly any small level should work out of a broken or el-cheapo level. You just need a reference to go by that is reliable.
Topstrap
The nifty cool looking mount they are attached to is the cost. Some have bragging rights names attached to them and are snazzed up so you have to pay more for that. If you have some equipment it's not hard to make a mount, some are just the top part of rings with the level attached to them. I've seen some that are made from bar stock and milled to attach to the mount and stick out the side. They aren't anything special, as long as it reliably returns to center between the lines and fits well between them nearly any small level should work out of a broken or el-cheapo level. You just need a reference to go by that is reliable.
Topstrap
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