anti cant level

[Wazzu]

Ever hear the saying, be careful arguing with idiots. Onlookers may not know who the idiot actually is. This is kinda how I feel right now.

 

[Lowlight]

Idiot huh,

You do realize I own this site and have been doing this longer than most.

I'm the idiot who'll remove you from this place and you'll be a forgotten footnote in about 30 seconds

 

[Wazzu]

Idiot huh,

You do realize I own this site and have been doing this longer than most.

I'm the idiot who'll remove you from this place and you'll be a forgotten footnote in about 30 seconds

No, I actually had no idea you owned this site. Even if I did though, that wouldn't have changed what I wrote. This thread was not producing anything useful, it was just two guys going at it-something I always told myself I wouldn't engage in.

If you believe in freedom of speech, you won't remove me. If I end up being removed, well then, I will know your true colors-and they won't be red, white, and blue and it will prove what I am currently thinking based on your above post, that you are not willing to listen to others thoughts or experiences. I hope I am wrong though. It would suck really bad if the owner of such a large forum on guns didn't even believe in one's right to voice their opinion, even if others don't like it, including himself.

Your call.

Either way, I'll survive. I have less than 40 posts, and if you read through them they are all, with the exception of this thread, very positive and encouraging posts. Like I said though, I'll survive either way.

 

[Lowlight]

Freedom of Speech doesn't exist here, I own the place, and pay 100% of the bills.

This is my house, if I walked into your house and called you an idiot I'm sure I would not be welcome any longer.

As far as not helping anyone, I am absolutely sure you are wrong, as people will read this and a light will go off and they might have actually learned something by the exchange.

I personally can give a shit if you don't think my colors are true... fuck you and your color wheel. I ban people every day, your rights here are meaningless to me. You are a guest here, in my house, you should remember that.

 

[Tahoe333]

Nice - Can someone post the color wheel for me?

 

[E. Bryant]

Nice - Can someone post the color wheel for me?

 

[lash]

...This thread was not producing anything useful, it was just two guys going at it-something I always told myself I wouldn't engage in...

Actually, for those of us just reading and absorbing information, without a dog in the fight, there was some very useful information in this thread. What I am able to take away from this thread is this:

Levels can be useful as a tool during training specifically to help one to identify proper set-up (for them) and to help enforce good NPA. Not everyone uses one or has used one. Some people firmly believe that using a level makes them better and this may be true but maybe not for the reasons they think. Many people with plenty of experience believe that using a level every day can be a distraction from accurate repeatable shooting.

I did not see anyone say that levels are useless and that they should never be used. I did see some say that they should always be used. I believe that the best answer FOR ME will likely be somewhere in between those extremes.

While some things are exact and always the same and will always create the same outcome based upon physics and mathematics (like ballistics without unknown external factors and cant results based purely on numbers), shooting a rifle accurately still incorporates the human factor. And when there is a human factor then art and skill must be considered as part of the outcome.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

It's a distraction, you cannot hold the rifle watching the level and shoot, while properly looking through the scope. We can't properly look at two things at once like that. You have to check one then move to the other and the body will subconsciously move you back to unlevel because you improperly set up the rifle.

Scope manufacturers will allow up to 3 degrees of error in their reticles, so how can you determine 1 degree with a $7 level ? You have no way of knowing what 1 degree is, and as soon as you look away from the level I guarantee you move it back to off...

I taught for a long time, longer than the so called, "top sniper instructor' and we never advocated using a level beyond training yourself to see what you position looks like.

you can set you rifle up correctly to properly fit and use your body position then adjust your scope to gravity. The rifle is canted, the scope is not... David Tubb who does sell and advocate a level for "training" says in the first line of his literature to set the rifle up to your "Natural Position" this is a clue... many don't understand this but a level rifle with a level scope is NOT natural.

I agree with you Frank, 100%. It is a distraction and is nearly impossible to watch that and also watch the reticle at the same time. This is one of those things that people who have never shot long range during moderate winds in uneven terrain think that a bubble level is needed.

I like the discussions coming from the new "johnny come lately's" out here and not realizing this is your house. I agree also that you can boot anyone off you want. I am just glad that you know what you are talking about. Just wanted you to know that I believe these reasons are exactly why this forum is the best on the internet, period.

Along that vein of tone and understanding, can you comment on the use of Angle Cosine Indicators? I have never used one and have it on my wish list. Are they useful? Do you use one? Is this something that you can look at once, then calculate your firing solution and get back to careful aiming?

Your knowledge is very much appreciated Frank. I hope to see you at a competition sometime in the next year or two.

 

[Lowlight]

The Angle Cosine indicator is better for longer shots that have extreme angles.

you really have to go beyond 10 - 12 degrees of slope for the effects to be pronounced. If you live in the mountains it makes it easier, especially if you are shooting targets of 1 MOA or less. If you are shooting big target that can absorb the offset or if you are not shooting far enough, it's not really necessary as you can always "hold low" regardless of shooting up or down.

I like the new ACI with the Cosine and not the degrees, takes a step out of it.

If you live in Missouri, Florida, etc, there is no reason to get one. It really matters when you go over 25 to 45 degrees and you're shooting beyond 500 -600 yards. Then it's definitely worth having.

For years we all shot ASC in the Mountain of WV and nobody used one and did extremely well. The most I saw people do on a few shots was hang a string from their Mil Dot Master and use that.

 

[THLR]

Human physiology has a resolution cant 0.3 to 0.5 degrees. (Vestibular sense). Worse resolution is indication of disease, see a doctor. (No joke!)

Anti cant bubbles resolve typically 1 degree.

 

[zenbiker]

True that the Human eye has a very fine resolution when it comes to cant, but any marksman worth his bear tooth will tell you the eye is easily tricked by uneven terrain, erratic terrain features, early/late day lighting conditions, among other conditions. Veterans of ASC will tell you how the mountainous terrain of WV can make te best of us into fools...

I personally knew the FBI Agent/1000 co-developer of the original ACD. All the other shooter laughed like hell at it until a few early adopters realized how canted their scopes were in the mounts. Within the season, almost all shooters had them.

I'll stick with my properly set up ACD. Like Frank says, proper setup of the rifle is tantamount to all else ACD or not. I've got a brand new 375 CT that has been ready to shoot for 6 months, but until my health lets me do the final setup, I refuse to waste barrel steel and ammo. I find the only shooters that laugh at them now are your average hunter who never shoots beyond 80 yards and swears their 30-06 will put a hole in an engine block at 500 yards...no, no, I don't need to hold over or dial in any elevation, I just hold right on...a 30.06 don't drop none };

 

[THLR]

Vestibular sense is in the ear. It sends roughly 100 spikes (checking the position) a second to check the position. I believe you are referring to the visual-vestibular integration? The brain combines these to reach a "consensus" about orientation, but knowledge and expectation can influence the perception of cant. As an effect of this your eyeballs will counter-rotate to the cant, and things can look a little askew. If you trust gravity over the image, you should do equally well without one.

But I'll agree that a level works and it has a function and can be useful to a shooter. But it isn't needed, your body is capable of handling the problem by its own..

 

[Lowlight]

Human physiology has a resolution cant 0.3 to 0.5 degrees. (Vestibular sense). Worse resolution is indication of disease, see a doctor. (No joke!)

Anti cant bubbles resolve typically 1 degree.

this needs to be repeated.

True that the Human eye has a very fine resolution when it comes to cant, but any marksman worth his bear tooth will tell you the eye is easily tricked by uneven terrain, erratic terrain features, early/late day lighting conditions, among other conditions. Veterans of ASC will tell you how the mountainous terrain of WV can make te best of us into fools...

gee I am a veteran of ASC and would again say, from the second match ever held there I shot it continuously until the whole cheating controversy in 2007. So about 5 years worth of matches at ASC. We Never Used Them. I scored in the top 10 several times with two second place finishes. No anti cant devices were on our line.

Is it possible people saw cant when they tried to incorrectly standardize the shooters hold instead of realize we all have a slight variation in that hold. Setting the rifle up to our natural position even with the scope aligned to the fall of gravity would mean if the level was not on the scope tube, the hold would show canted. We hold hold the rifle canted (slightly) then level the scope to the fall of gravity. Pointing to people's natural hold as off is a misunderstanding of the individual shooter.

 

[THLR]

[...]but any marksman worth his bear tooth will tell you the eye is easily tricked by uneven terrain, erratic terrain features, early/late day lighting conditions, among other conditions. Veterans of ASC will tell you how the mountainous terrain of WV can make te best of us into fools...

Sorry, missed those details on the first readthrough. I'm a bit harsh here, but if something as simple as visual perception or mountains will put the shooter on his ass, one might want to re-evaluate perceived competence level and get a better estimate on actual. It is perhaps a matter of habit, a lot of us here live in mountains and do ok without.

(Sorry if I break any rules with this video, but I reckon a moderator will remove it quick enough)

Start at time 3:27

Longrange blog 70: Film project - YouTube