Any electricians in the house?

[Drago6]

Disclaimer: I'm not an electrician (although I'd like to be), I always work safe shutting off the breaker first and then testing anything I'm working on with the non contact tester and/or multimeter to be double sure.

Long story short, the entirety of my basement lights were on the same circuit as half the first floor and nearly all of the second, idk what the electrician was thinking 30 years ago but alas, I'm not ripping off drywall to optimize a system that has been working fine, doing what I can. I'm redoing the whole basement light system and adding in a bunch more lights, they will be on their own circuit. Setting that up will be easy since it's just running NM inside exposed floor joists.

The basement lights are on a 3-way switch setup, being that half the house was tied into this one circuit and of course nothing was labeled I spent most of yesterday methodically figuring out what was what (and lots of cussing)

As you can see in the pictures the way it was/is setup is using a 14/2 NM wire for the "traveler" between the 2 switches. Everything I have read/looked at involving 3-way switches has it requiring the traveler be a 3 conductor (i.e. 14/3) so that the neutrals are taken care of. The way it was setup when I found it was the switch at top of stairs had a pigtail connecting to the common terminal on the bottom.

My current view on the situation is that for my new basement light circuit I'm going to have to run a new span of 14/3 between those 2 switches and cannot re-use the existing 14/2 that they were previously hooked up with. Is that correct or am I missing something?


Switch at top of stairs



Switch at basement exit

 

[Long Range 338]

Yes you need 3 insulated conductors between 3 way switches.

3 Way Switch Wiring Diagram

Looking for a 3 way switch wiring diagram? Here are a few that may be of interest...

www.easy-do-it-yourself-home-improvements.com

 

[oneshot86]

The dreaded 3 way switch.
I wish I could help you, my hammering through it would only make you want to jump off a bridge.
I'm certain someone, soon, will help you right out

 

[DeadAss]

Long Range 338 is right 3 insulated wires between switches

 

[Drago6]

The dreaded 3 way switch.
I wish I could help you, my hammering through it would only make you want to jump off a bridge.
I'm certain someone, soon, will help you right out

What's so doom & gloom about it? lol

Just need about a ~20ft run of 14/3 between the switches, bring in the power to the stairway switch on a 14/2 coming directly from the main panel, the light circuit will tie into the switch at the basement door.

 

[Halfnutz]

Just make sure when your significant other is there watching, when you touch any wires you convulse and roll your eyes back in your head and make the zzzzzt noise. Never gets old.

 

[pmclaine]

Three ways are easy. Think of two train tracks running parallel and your switching the train from one track to the other. The train represents the current, the wires the tracks...........and yes you need 3 wire cable between the switches.

One Black screw is power in. The black wire coming from the power feed to the box, typically a two wire cable.

One Black screw is power out. The typical two wire cable that goes to the controlled device.

At each end of the three wire cable connect the same color travelers to the same brass/zinc screw locations on each switch.

In the three wire cable white is always neutral, black and red are the travelers. Splice the white wires from the power line in, through the three wire cable, to the typical two wire cable out to the device.

Wait until you run into a single pole switch loop and cant convince your self its okay to make the white wire hot.




Disregard.....See Post #2

 

[missed]

Actually you can have only two insulated wires between switches. If you power it at the top of the stairs and connect to the lights at the bottom of the stairs.


Switch at top

Black screw power
Two travelers.

Switch at bottom
Black screw to light fixtures
Two travelers .

 

[chevy_man]

More than likely you don't have a neutral at the switch box because there is a power feeding into the light box.


First, disconnect incoming power from top floor and put it in it's own j-box with cover. LABEL ACCORDINGLY! You're just going to wire nut them individually and leave them safed off. Obviously, if your lighting home run is feeding through you'll keep it connected to power the rest of the lights in this separate box.

Run new circuit off your new arc fault & ground fault breaker. Run power to first switch (14/2), 3 wire to second switch, and 14/2 up to the first light box. Proceed to loop all the light boxes together.
Now, LABEL YOUR NEW BREAKER!

Read the directions with the new switches you buy. Replace them, they go bad, just do it since you're in there. Color coding is different between brands and even series. Brass will typically be hot or switch leg, but I've seen blue/black/silver/brass on the travelers also. Don't trust when someone says a color, as it means they've done very little or one type exclusively and it will not cover all types and brands of switches.

If you couldn't tell, I do a fair amount of service work and the idiots before me that can't use a damn marker or labels are a good amount of my daily frustration.


Arc fault and ground fault are now both required by 2020 nec in a below grade (basement) living space. Your local inspector may or may not enforce it, but welcome to $50 breakers!

 

[shk1]

Here’s the easiest way to show you.

 

[chevy_man]

View attachment 7602416
Here’s the easiest way to show you.

That's a dead end 3-way. Not legal unless you run 12/4 so you can carry a neutral to the dead end switch.

They also move all the wire fill to one box. Stupid idea when most people buy boxes that are too small in the first place.

 

[Drago6]

Actually you can have only two insulated wires between switches. If you power it at the top of the stairs and connect to the lights at the bottom of the stairs.


Switch at top

Black screw power
Two travelers.

Switch at bottom
Black screw to light fixtures
Two travelers .

What would i do with the neutral on the incoming power if using the 2 conductors as travelers? There would be now way for the neutral on the hot line to connect the entire circuit right?

 

[Kinetic Moose]

Looks like what you have going on is the nuetral isn't in the three way and is likely grounded to the box(BX cable) or feeding back through another circuit, or someone has installed a 4 way at one time.
do both switches function as a 3 way should, or is one dependant on the position of the other, IE it won't work unless the other is in position x.....

 

[chevy_man]

What would i do with the neutral on the incoming power if using the 2 conductors as travelers? There would be now way for the neutral on the hot line to connect the entire circuit right?

The power is coming from a lighting box and you already have the neutral there.


From those pictures, they weren't working correctly unless there is something else you're not showing us.

 

[Drago6]

I did a new run of 14/3 between the two switch boxes and got everything tied in, works great now

The old 14/2 being used as travelers i capped off with wirenuts and labeled it, keeping it in back of box. It's de-energized.

I kept doing some more research and from one video i watched it looks like that when the house was built in '91 the code didnt require the traveler to have a neutral which likely explains the setup i initially found

 

[Long Range 338]

I did a new run of 14/3 between the two switch boxes and got everything tied in, works great now

The old 14/2 being used as travelers i capped off with wirenuts and labeled it, keeping it in back of box. It's de-energized.

I kept doing some more research and from one video i watched it looks like that when the house was built in '91 the code didnt require the traveler to have a neutral which likely explains the setup i initially found

Code has always required that it function. 3 way switching hasn’t changed in the last 50 years.

 

[lightman]

The NEC has a lot of stupid things in it. One of them is the requirement of a neutral at a dead end 3-way switch. And you are correct, it is a fairly new requirement but I don't remember the exact year.

 

[dustingaunder]

The NEC has a lot of stupid things in it. One of them is the requirement of a neutral at a dead end 3-way switch. And you are correct, it is a fairly new requirement but I don't remember the exact year.

It’s required at all switch boxes because of all the new power consuming switches. People will use the EGC as a return path if there’s not a neutral there and that’s a no-no. Neutral in the switch boxes is actually a sensible change to the NEC, IMO.

 

[Alphatreedog]

Run 14-3 as previously mentioned . What size breaker is that running to also determines awg . Please tape your wire nuts and provide a courtesy fold after you tear . The little folded end will allow easy removal if you need . If the wire nut fails or pops off you have an unshielded live conductor .

 

[bomurzynski]

When making some repairs in your house, working with the right people is important. I had a bad experience working with a plumber, and I want to share this with you. I hired him because he was recommended by someone I know and trust, but that was a mistake. The issue was that we needed to repair the boiler in our house, and we called someone to fix it. Also, these guys worked with the siding part of the house and did a great job. I think that these guys are the best experts in the repair domain. They have a specialist for all niches.

 

[Lowlight]

Insider info:

I went to a vocational school, I was a licensed electrician coming out of the USMC, did 99% commercial work, I’ll bend a pipe with the best of them, but got recruited to Rifles Only and never looked back.

Journey men make the world go round !

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Ohh shit, now we know where this came from

Insider info:

I went to a vocational school, I was a licensed electrician coming out of the USMC, did 99% commercial work, I’ll bend a pipe with the best of them, but got recruited to Rifles Only and never looked back.

Journey men make the world go round !

 

[pmclaine]

Being able to bend an offset without rolling it didn't take much effort but a lot of kids couldn't.

Should have probably followed the trade and got a truck with my name on it.....

 

[oneshot86]

Being able to bend an offset without rolling it didn't take much effort but a lot of kids couldn't.

Should have probably followed the trade and got a truck with my name on it.....

Never too late