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Any Relationship of the Remington 40X and the "M40" or "M24"?
- Thread starter FP1201
- Start date
Joking aside, the US military has used 5-rd stripper clips since the turn of the 20th century. Attached pic are various US 7.62 NATO ammo circa 1958 (M59), to Vietnam era (1968), to a recent bandoleer that utilized M80 ammo. The 30-06 stripper clips were about the same except they have 2 small bumps or 'nubs' on the side and the later ones seem to have only one small 'nub.' I looked it up, and the first use of the modern 5-rd charger clip was on Paul Mauser's rifles from the 1890s. At the turn of the 20th century all military bolt action rifles from the major powers used clip slots to allow a soldier to quickly load (and re-load) 5-rds into their rifle, which matters in combat... (US, UK, Germany, Japan, Russia, etc all had clip guides on their infantry rifles).I'm just waiting for somebody to come out with the box of mil spec stripper clips designed just for the USMC M40, lol. Seriously, no other modern rifle has gone through so much speculation than the so-so original USMC M40/700. Do any of you even own an SKS.
(I have not studied the history of the Remington Model 720 or 721, which I presume some had the square cut-out like a lug slot, but I have studied the 1966 and later history of the M700s).
What is the relevance to the clip slot cuts on the Remington 40-X repeater/target rifle from 1966? - and its main competitor of the day, the famous Winchester Model 70 Target rifles that dominated the National Matches in the 1950s? The answer? The Rapid Fire stage of the National Matches, which required the shooter to place 10 aimed shots in 60 seconds. That started in 1923, thanks to the invention of the 5-rd charger or 5-rd "stripper clip" that allowed a competitor to quickly load and shoot 5 rds, and then load and shoot his second 5 rds, all in 60 seconds. The Rapid Fire Stage hasn't changed much, you still start from a standing position as seen here back in 1923: (Although I recall some local RF stages are 80 seconds).
As an aside, after WWII when the M1 Garand was used in the matches beginning in 1952, a special 2-rd enbloc clip was developed so that the competitive shooters could shot 10 rds for the Rapid Fire stage. You start with the 2-rd enbloc made for these matches, and then load your traditional 8-rd enbloc clip. I have done this many times...(I have several of those odd-ball 2-rd enbloc clips for the CMP M1 "as-issued" matches).
Beginning in 1952 Winchester M70 Target rifles won most of high-power matches at Camp Perry. Here's a 1954 Winchester ad for the Model 70 Target rifle:
These M70 match rifles were made with clip slots to allow the rifle to be competitive in the Rapid Fire Stage. (They made a 'National Match' version and a Target version, but I won't go into the differences here, other than to say they both had clip slots.). Here's a 1950 M70 National Match model (not my rifle). Please note the clip slot on this early M70 and the fact that it was designed for high-power competition.
Below M70 rifle in the front is a mid-1950's hunting M70 rifle with no clip slot and standard barrel. Rifle in the back of pic is a 1953 M70 Target rifle with clip slot, a medium heavy target barrel, and precision match sights. (It's like that rifle in the above 1954 ad).
Other than the clip slot on the top M70, both receivers are otherwise identical. So, WRA didn't machine clip slots on their standard hunting rifles as it was more expensive and time consuming to do all that machining, so only their special target rifles got the slots (and I think the rare heavy barreled 'Bull Rifle' got it too)...and guess what? Remington decided it wanted to compete against the M70s - and did the same beginning in 1966 when they made the first 40-X repeater target rifle. They wanted to compete with Winchester in the 1960s, so Merle Walker developed a target rifle:
The Remington 40-X Rifle - Sniper Country
Over time, the Remington 40X models evolved into providing long-range, Varmint, and benchrest shooting and military sniping. The original 40-XBBWs came with heavier 26” barrels...
www.snipercountry.com
Over time, the 40-X models evolved into providing long-range, Varmint, and benchrest shooting and military sniping. The 40-X collection branched into two series for Match/Varmint rifles, and the Benchrest rifles."
Like Winchester's M70, Remington's Match 40-X utilized the clip slots so that rifle could also compete in the Rapid Fire stage of a match - but standard M700's didn't get that feature...except of course for the USMC/gov't orders of M700s - as the original 1966 contract specifically stated clip slots were to be on their sniper rifles, which per Senich was a "concession to the Rifle team influence." Not sure about any M40s being used in formal competition, but I recall reading something about the USMC rifle team once using M40A1s in the early 1980s with presumably iron sights, I think in Europe, but don't have that reference in front of me. I know the Army did the same with a fews M24s back then as well.
I could be wrong, but is my understanding that the only Remington rifles that got the clip slots after 1966 were the 40-X repeaters, and the military M700 (aka M40s) - as the USMC specifically requested this feature and it became part of the drawing for all gov't procured M40s. I don't know when Remington stopped doing the clip slots on their 308W 40-X repeater rifles. With the advent of detachable magazines on competitive rifles, the clip slots went away....
Lastly, for the record, the idea that clip slots impacted the M40 scopes mounting stability, or adversely accuracy of the rifle - is not supported by any historical accounting that I am aware of. The biggest issue in Vietnam re M40's were swollen wood stocks thanks to the Monsoon climate...oxidized barrel bores due to the same climate, and the fact that the Redfield scopes were just not sturdy enough for heavy combat use in Vietnam, they were just civilian scopes that were anodized green. Here's Chuck Mawhinney's opinion on the M40 in Vietnam:
An Official Journal Of The NRA | A Marine's Rifle
Mawhinney is a towering figure in the sniper community because of his combat record in Vietnam.
Okay, that's enough history for this thread....moving on.
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Good reference.....and the 720 was also a mil design borrowing from the British Enfield.
Looks like a few other hide members stumbled across your answer ~ 8 years ago in discussion on a separate topic. Based on this, your answer would be that the 1969 manual is the first version to reference the rifle as the M40.
Looking for a Marine Sniper manual circa 1966-1972
Hi Guys, I am Looking for a Marine Sniper manual circa 1966-1972 to purchase, rent, borrow, lease what ever it takes. If you have one or know of one, please let me know. Marty Badger Ordnance
www.snipershide.com
It took me a little while to find some form of reference to inherent M40 problems with the scope bases, which by the way also included split rear rings as well. This is what happens when the Marines are in a hurry, staff officers don't file shit, people think "mil-spec" means something really cool rather than the illusive purchase description. We already had one expert leave because the thread became retarded in his opinion because he can't picture an ADL stock with a blind magazine and an ADL sporter stock with a BDL bottom magazine and how that can possibly be associated with clip slots even though he owns an OG version and can just look at it. Clip slots, for all intent and purpose, had no use on the M40 because it took an iron sight action and attempted to use it in combat as a scoped rifle. That tells me he has not been around a lot of variants of the R700. I've watched some of you people argue over the M40 all over the Internet from at least 2006 and you are no more knowledgeable than the day you found the one article on how to build a clone and the one book with no index. The only reason for that is that is all we really need. Just look at the rifle. Look at how the Marines flubbed this up with useless clip slots, civilian optics, lousy screws, and lack of parts in country once deployed. About half of these rifles ended up in crates as unserviceable or to be determined as serviceable at a later date by 1969. The Marines ordered a farmer varmint hunting rifle and expected it to hold up in a place like Vietnam. I don't understand the fascination. I only purchased the SSA as an OG buyer basically for the action. It was about $1200 on my end with no plans of moving to Vietnam to go varmint hunting for four years. I eventually sold off the rest of it to some of you guys who promptly complained about the quality, including a Badger mount, like it was my fault or it wasn't true to the original design though it was endorsed by the SSA. I was so wary of selling off the rest that I actually went through Ebay bidding because I knew there was going to be some whining, and there was, lol. The SSA model is a good example to imagine how it went on the original M40. The SSA ended having to be released without the Badger mount and the Leopold/Redfield scope. They just couldn't get their shit together. I'm sorry if I ruined anybody's black panther party. But here is more food for thought, speculation, and years worth of additional criticism, real or not...
AND....
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AND....
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It's clear from the historical record that the USMC didn't even have a sniper training program in 1965 when the Gulf of Tonkin resolution was passed - and LBJ thereby escalated the conflict in Vietnam into a full fledged war. The USMC had nothing. No sniper training program and no rifles as they had retired in 1963 their M1C-based M1952 sniper rifles (since it used an obsolete 30-06 ammo and an obsolete M1 Garand platform).
Capt. Jim Land (later promoted to Major) was ordered to create from scratch a sniper program - given the urgency of the combat situation. He resorted to having various former USMC match rifles, mostly Winchester Model 70s sent over to Vietnam, and all the old WWII era Unertl 8x scopes that were still in inventory. They even bought several cheap Japanese 3-9x scopes in the PX in Okinawa (the mysterious scopes marked "Marine" but that was just a marketing thing). They got their first sniper rifles in Sept 1965, and then proceeded to create a training program. Carlos Hathcock's M70 rifle and 8x Unertl were made in WWII - but it was all they had, so they made the best of what they had. (The M40s didn't arrive until early 1967).
Meanwhile in the USA, the USMC evaluated 5 rifles in early 1966 (including an M700 ADL which had a skinny barrel and was not accurate enough, and they tested the new Remington 40-X repeater with a 'medium-heavy' barrel that came out on top. They also tested an H&R "Ultra rifle" that was rejected). They tested half a dozen scopes too, and the Redfield 3-9x came out on top, but it was just a civilian scope and didn't stand up to the harsh combat conditions in Vietnam. Normally gov't procurements for a new weapon systems take a few years, but the USMC did it in a few months, as they needed something quick over in SE Asia. No one is stating the 1966 M40 was perfect, that didn't happen until the M40A5 was issued in 2009...
The US Army had the same issues as the USMC, no sniper training program in 1965 and no sniper weapons except the old M1D w/ obsloete 2.2X M84 scope, and that platform used the 30-06 ammo, which was also obsolete with the adoption of the M14 in 1957. So they scrambled and put together a basic scope mount using the WWII era G&H M1C base, a simple mount for the M14, and sent 500 plus of the old M84 scopes over to Vietnam in 1967. This picture was taken in Vietnam in early 1969, showing a 101st Airborne sniper with a new National Match M14 with AWC/M84 optic set-up. This veteran stated the following about his then-new M14 sniper rifle:
"We received brand new, right out of the box National Match M-14s at the 101st Sniper School at Camp Eagle, Vietnam in January of '69. And we had that all powerful M84 Scope that usually had so much condensation it was useless."
....the monsoon climate in Vietnam was indeed hard on scopes of that era, but there was an urgent need for an optic-equipped M14 sniper rifle at the time, so the old 2.2x M84 scopes were pressed into service. (The XM21s were not officially adopted until Sept 1969). Here are replicas of the three most commonly used US sniper rifles circa 1965 to 1970 over in Vietnam. (Not shown are the more primitive M1Ds w/ M84 scopes and the M14's w/ M84 scopes)
Anyhow, after the Vietnam war was over, the USMC took all the lessons learned about the M40 and upgraded all their rifles to the M40A1 configuration in the late 1970s/early 80s - which resulted in basically hand-made, purpose built sniper rifles by the RTE guys - and it was way more robust than anything Remington had to offer in 1966. That M40A1 rifle fixed all the issues that the original M40 had, including a McMillan fiberglass stock impervious to rain/humidity, a heavy SS barrel that won't rust, a robust military-grade 10x scope that they spent years developing with John Unertl, and a mount that had the scope rings actually welded to the base of the mount(!). They even developed the famous Mil-Dot reticle, a very innovative reticle for 1979-1980.
BTW, the Badger Ordnance reproduction M40 scope mount works fine. Marty (the owner) used his original M40 mount to make an exact reproduction of his original. The collector/clone community owes him gratitude for doing that.... (Here's some of his collection, and his original M40 is sort-of in the middle - see white arrow). He obviously has deep pockets and a real fetish for collecting rare sniper rifles...
The biggest downside to the original M40 mount is that it's zero cant, so the little 1" scope runs out of elevation between 800 and 1000 yards. Since I have shot mine at 1000 yds at Quantico vintage precision matches, I installed a little aluminum shim at the rear of the mount to provide enough cant for 1000 yard adjustments. Looks a little Bubba with the shim, but it works, and I had it Cerakoted flat black so at least it matches and it's sort of incognito...
Capt. Jim Land (later promoted to Major) was ordered to create from scratch a sniper program - given the urgency of the combat situation. He resorted to having various former USMC match rifles, mostly Winchester Model 70s sent over to Vietnam, and all the old WWII era Unertl 8x scopes that were still in inventory. They even bought several cheap Japanese 3-9x scopes in the PX in Okinawa (the mysterious scopes marked "Marine" but that was just a marketing thing). They got their first sniper rifles in Sept 1965, and then proceeded to create a training program. Carlos Hathcock's M70 rifle and 8x Unertl were made in WWII - but it was all they had, so they made the best of what they had. (The M40s didn't arrive until early 1967).
Meanwhile in the USA, the USMC evaluated 5 rifles in early 1966 (including an M700 ADL which had a skinny barrel and was not accurate enough, and they tested the new Remington 40-X repeater with a 'medium-heavy' barrel that came out on top. They also tested an H&R "Ultra rifle" that was rejected). They tested half a dozen scopes too, and the Redfield 3-9x came out on top, but it was just a civilian scope and didn't stand up to the harsh combat conditions in Vietnam. Normally gov't procurements for a new weapon systems take a few years, but the USMC did it in a few months, as they needed something quick over in SE Asia. No one is stating the 1966 M40 was perfect, that didn't happen until the M40A5 was issued in 2009...
The US Army had the same issues as the USMC, no sniper training program in 1965 and no sniper weapons except the old M1D w/ obsloete 2.2X M84 scope, and that platform used the 30-06 ammo, which was also obsolete with the adoption of the M14 in 1957. So they scrambled and put together a basic scope mount using the WWII era G&H M1C base, a simple mount for the M14, and sent 500 plus of the old M84 scopes over to Vietnam in 1967. This picture was taken in Vietnam in early 1969, showing a 101st Airborne sniper with a new National Match M14 with AWC/M84 optic set-up. This veteran stated the following about his then-new M14 sniper rifle:
"We received brand new, right out of the box National Match M-14s at the 101st Sniper School at Camp Eagle, Vietnam in January of '69. And we had that all powerful M84 Scope that usually had so much condensation it was useless."
....the monsoon climate in Vietnam was indeed hard on scopes of that era, but there was an urgent need for an optic-equipped M14 sniper rifle at the time, so the old 2.2x M84 scopes were pressed into service. (The XM21s were not officially adopted until Sept 1969). Here are replicas of the three most commonly used US sniper rifles circa 1965 to 1970 over in Vietnam. (Not shown are the more primitive M1Ds w/ M84 scopes and the M14's w/ M84 scopes)
Anyhow, after the Vietnam war was over, the USMC took all the lessons learned about the M40 and upgraded all their rifles to the M40A1 configuration in the late 1970s/early 80s - which resulted in basically hand-made, purpose built sniper rifles by the RTE guys - and it was way more robust than anything Remington had to offer in 1966. That M40A1 rifle fixed all the issues that the original M40 had, including a McMillan fiberglass stock impervious to rain/humidity, a heavy SS barrel that won't rust, a robust military-grade 10x scope that they spent years developing with John Unertl, and a mount that had the scope rings actually welded to the base of the mount(!). They even developed the famous Mil-Dot reticle, a very innovative reticle for 1979-1980.
BTW, the Badger Ordnance reproduction M40 scope mount works fine. Marty (the owner) used his original M40 mount to make an exact reproduction of his original. The collector/clone community owes him gratitude for doing that.... (Here's some of his collection, and his original M40 is sort-of in the middle - see white arrow). He obviously has deep pockets and a real fetish for collecting rare sniper rifles...
The biggest downside to the original M40 mount is that it's zero cant, so the little 1" scope runs out of elevation between 800 and 1000 yards. Since I have shot mine at 1000 yds at Quantico vintage precision matches, I installed a little aluminum shim at the rear of the mount to provide enough cant for 1000 yard adjustments. Looks a little Bubba with the shim, but it works, and I had it Cerakoted flat black so at least it matches and it's sort of incognito...
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Back on the OP question ... as was said, not all clip slotting was done by Remington for sniper rifles. There was once a considerable commercial market for clip-slotted target rifles for shooting "across the course" back in the post-WW2 thru the 90s. AI mags and associated DBMs didn't exist and folks like Mo DeFina were making their own with M16 and M14 magazines but they were SCARCE and expensive mods.
I do remember seeing the USAMU using solid-bottom (non-repeater) 40x actions on their 300wm any/any rifles in some matches I ran and shot at in the early-to-mid 90s. Yep, shooting a 300wm in a short action 40x! If they had to pull a live round out of the chamber, they had to pull the bolt to do so.
Just a reminder, Lake City was still producing generous amounts of -06 into the 70s and Frankford Arsenal stopped in 1961. The last M72 was 1967. Carlos was shooting an -06 Model 70 in Vietnam using M72.
Yep, that's correct, lots of M72 was certainly in the supply system during Vietnam and well into the 1970s, and it was used by Hathcock and others.
BTW, it appears that LC was still making M72 match ammo in 1968 as well (see attached pic of some old M72 boxes of lot # 12253), but maybe that was the last year. Fwiw, I use that LC match 67 and 68 brass for my 30-06 reloads for my M70 replica sniper.
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