Sidearms & Scatterguns Any USPSA shooters here

[Alabusa]

I am just getting g started shooting USPSA and have quickly gotten addicted.
I am not the fastest and am not too worried about my time atm. I am more concerned about form and fundamentals. I figure the speed will come but that I can't miss fast enough to make up for it.

Any tips, tricks or advice from seasoned shooters is more than welcome.

 

[titandriver]

Dry fire is your friend! Check out either of these sites for lots of info: https://www.benstoeger.com or http://www.andersonshooting.com

 

[308pirate]

I am just getting g started shooting USPSA and have quickly gotten addicted.
I am not the fastest and am not too worried about my time atm. I am more concerned about form and fundamentals. I figure the speed will come but that I can't miss fast enough to make up for it.

Any tips, tricks or advice from seasoned shooters is more than welcome.

There's a lot that you don't know that you don't know. Whatever you think you know about pistol marksmanship is likely wrong.

Start by buying these books and doing everything they tell you to do:

5 Book Combo Pack! Dry-Fire Training Reloaded, Practical Pistol Reloaded, Skills and Drills Reloaded, and Breakthrough Marksmanship, and Match Mentality

5 Book Combo Pack! Dry-Fire Training Reloaded, Practical Pistol Reloaded, Skills and Drills Reloaded, and Breakthrough Marksmanship, and Match Mentality

benstoegerproshop.com

 

[davsco]

your score is your target points per second (hit factor). with time in the denominator, it is a critical factor. you should shoot within your limits, BUT, don't waste any unnecessary time getting into or out of positions, or between arrays. while tempting, don't push your gun into ports or past walls, as then you have to spend time getting your gun back out of the ports etc. every start and stop takes time so plan where you are going to stop to maximize the # targets shot per position. always reload/top off while moving so that you avoid a standing reload later. also, holstering is NOT on the clock, so take your time and look it into the holster and make sure your shirt or a cincher/pull strap etc isn't in the way. good luck, it's a LOT of fun!

 

[srt-4_uk]

Remember that practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent.

 

[titandriver]

Another good resource I forgot to mention: https://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?act=idx

 

[shoot4fun]

I am just getting g started shooting USPSA and have quickly gotten addicted.
I am not the fastest and am not too worried about my time atm. I am more concerned about form and fundamentals. I figure the speed will come but that I can't miss fast enough to make up for it.

Any tips, tricks or advice from seasoned shooters is more than welcome.

All the books and instructional video in the world won't help if you don't have a shooting buddy practicing with you at the range. It takes someone who knows what they're doing to let you know the finer things you need to hone to achieve your sharpest game. I was totally dedicated to USPSA, both the shooting and as a MD, RO, CRO and Range Master for about twenty-five years. Some of my best friends came out of the game. Two guys in AL I would talk to are Jeff Cramblit and Frank Proctor. The one thing I can tell you is that it isn't how fast but instead how smooth you move and shoot. Work everyday on cutting excessive movements out of your game.

 

[benchmstr]

dry fire and reloads.....worry about everything else later.

bench

 

[skatz11]

It sounds like you’re on the right track.

Pick a gun and division and shoot it for a committed amount of time (don’t change every week)

Don’t chase gear and guns, focus on shooting.

Stage planning execution is everything. Step one know where all the targets are and hitting them.

Once you can make all of the shots it’s a matter of visual patience and learning to shoot sooner and more efficient movement.

The Ben Stoeger and Steve Anderson books and podcasts are great resources.

The biggest difference I’ve found the last few years is just shooting within my ability and dedicated practice to improve.

 

[perttime]

Remember that practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent.

Another good resource I forgot to mention: https://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?act=idx

I Second these two (and more previous posts).

If you practice doing things inefficiently, you will be slow forever.
Hands-on advice from somebody who knows what he or she is doing can help you get on the right track fast. Eliminate unnecessary and inefficient things in everything you do.

Be safe!

.... and read the rules! You can just glance through much of it - but focus on things that deal with what you must, and must not, do as a competitor. There are some things there that are not so obvious until you think about it a while.

 

[502Chevelle]

Ask around if there are any GMs in your area who give lessons. You will probably balk at the price of a one day lesson, but if your guy is good, it will be worth every penny. Also, you will be starting off learning good habits, and not developing bad habits that your teacher will have to break and you will have to go backwards to go forwards (ask me how I know). It’s a great sport, get started right and have a lot of fun. Oh, almost forgot, buy a Dillon.

 

[Kartman]

Watch videos and read books from top comp shooters.

Then take a class from a top guy.

 

[308pirate]

All the books and instructional video in the world won't help if you don't have a shooting buddy practicing with you at the range.

Adult learning theory disagrees with you. And so do I. Not everyone can self diagnose and self teach, but many can.

 

[308pirate]

Ask around if there are any GMs in your area who give lessons. You will probably balk at the price of a one day lesson, but if your guy is good, it will be worth every penny.

+1

 

[Kartman]

Ask around if there are any GMs in your area who give lessons.

+2

 

[AbbyKatt]

Don't forget to go through the rulebook! It helps to know what you can...and can't do!

 

[Deano2246]

When going to matches, try and get on squads with much shooters better than you, you can learn a ton just by watching their stage plans, by the end of the day you will have some new buddies that can teach you a bunch

ALWAYS tape and reset steel, nothing will get you hated faster than to be the guy that never helps reset.

Never shoot minor power factor if you can help it, your just giving away points

 

[davere]

Ask around if there are any GMs in your area who give lessons. You will probably balk at the price of a one day lesson, but if your guy is good, it will be worth every penny.

+3

Some good advice above, as well... I'll say this - the brianenos.com forum is a great resource, but you do need to be sensitive to the signal to noise ratio. There's a lot of C class "experts" on there (or, were a few years back when I stopped participating on that forum actively), and due to forum rules, they get to "shout down" folks that know what they're talking about. Doesn't mean it's not a useful resource, at all - it helped me a lot!

One book not mentioned here is Saul Kirsch's "Thinking Practical Shooting" - https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/thinking-practical-shooting-by-saul-kirsch - what I like about this one is that it's basically a conglomeration of lessons that took many of us years to compile. It's a big short cut to how to prepare for and shoot matches. It's not going to build a bunch of skills, but it'll help you get squared away in terms of what gear you actually need, how to show up at a match and figure out what's going on, and how to get ready to shoot a stage... things like that. It's been a while since I've been through the book - there's a lot more than that in there.

Build a dry fire practice. However, you don't need to dry fire for hours a day to get better. That's a falsehood. In fact, that can hamper your progress, in some cases. Learn how to dry fire, and spend 15-30 minutes a day working on specific goals, and you'll be well on your way (especially after having someone look at what you're doing and getting you on the right path). Anderson's and Stoeger's books are both good resources for dry fire drills, and how to use a timer in dry fire to help push yourself. Kirsch's "Perfect Practice" has some good drills, too, and Mike Seeklander also has a good dry/live fire program book. And, if you're interested and have an iPhone, some guy wrote some drills and put them in an iPhone app called "Practice Deck" (it was originally a deck of playing cards before it became an app).

Beyond that, get a reliable handgun, and put GOOD sights on it. Get several mags, and appropriate "leather" (which is mostly Kydex, these days), and get to work dry firing. You can get kooky in dry fire, like this turkey... - it doesn't all have to be "same old, same old" (although the "same old" stuff is where you're going to grind to make those basic skills better - and everything is basics, all the time!)

Dry fire and some local matches alone can get you to A class - maybe even to Master. You don't have to be rich or have unlimited time to make that happen - and my opinion is that basically anyone with a will to put the work in can make Master in that game.

 

[308pirate]

Never shoot minor power factor if you can help it, your just giving away points

That's only true if you compete in the Open or Limited divisions, debatable in Single Stack, and completely wrong for Production, Carry Optics, and Revolver.

 

[Kartman]

These books are rather old but still full of great info.

Amazon.com

Practical Shooting : Beyond Fundamentals: Enos, Brian, Kunkler, Kris: 9780962692505: Amazon.com: Books

Practical Shooting : Beyond Fundamentals [Enos, Brian, Kunkler, Kris] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Practical Shooting : Beyond Fundamentals

www.amazon.com

 

[A&8's]

I shot a lot of uspsa in the middle 90's. My biggest help was: Dry Fire and IF you're going to shoot minor, practice with major loads, compete with minor loads. Although, after awhile you'll end up competing in major any way.

 

[308pirate]

I shot a lot of uspsa in the middle 90's. IF you're going to shoot minor, practice with major loads, compete with minor loads. Although, after awhile you'll end up competing in major any way.

And it shows.

Carry Optics and PCC are the fastest growing divisions and both are minor PF only. Production (also minor only) is pretty fucking healthy too.

Quite honestly, Open is almost pointless now that Carry Optics can use 141 mm mags.

 

[davere]

Carry Optics and PCC are the fastest growing divisions and both are minor PF only. Production (also minor only) is pretty fucking healthy too.

Or, you can buy "official" ammo and shoot sub-minor, so... LOL

 

[308pirate]

Or, you can buy "official" ammo and shoot sub-minor, so... LOL

There's that too.

But in fairness, there's USPSA certified ammo in all calibers so depending on your particular gun and division you could score major shooting minor.....

 

[DJL2]

I haven't shot a match in a long while and was a C-Class shooter when I did (both Single Stack and Production). Things I learned, in no particular order:

Focus on grip and stance when you practice. You're gonna shoot from a lot of weird positions on stages, but having a solid base to work from is invaluable.

"See what you need to see." You don't need a full, crisp sight picture for every shot, but I (at least) always need some sort of sight picture.

The easiest way to make Cs and Ms is to take your eyes off the front sight. As a new guy, you'll never be able to run the gun fast enough to account for dropping As...especially shooting minor.

To both the points above: Call your shot(s). If you don't know where it hit, you didn't have a sight picture. Don't look at the target to assess, KNOW where the shot went when you broke it. Pick-up Ms immediately (Comstock), and keep moving. Having to check your work over the sights wastes an enormous amount of time.

Practice with a shot timer, if you can. Preferably on a range that'll let you draw and reload w/o cringing over their insurance premiums/target hangers.

Transitions kill. Eyes to the target, gun to the eyes. If you track the gun between targets you will be s-l-o-w.

If you're on target and reloading, you're wasting time. Reload on the move. It's a game, dump that partial if it won't get you through the next array and put a full one in.

Draws and reloads are a HUGE deal on speed stages/classifiers. Burning down a target won't do you much good if you're fumbling reloads or stuck clearing kydex.

Might as well learn to shoot with your offhand before a stage requires it if you're not already working that skill set.

 

[davere]

There's that too.

But in fairness, there's USPSA certified ammo in all calibers so depending on your particular gun and division you could score major shooting minor.....

I get the utility behind why they made that choice at an organizational level, but... I still think that's lame shit.

 

[Kartman]

And it shows.

Carry Optics and PCC are the fastest growing divisions and both are minor PF only. Production (also minor only) is pretty fucking healthy too.

Quite honestly, Open is almost pointless now that Carry Optics can use 141 mm mags.

 

[skatz11]

View attachment 7257799

True but peasant open is still a lot of fun.

 

[308pirate]

View attachment 7257799

Is that guy C class in Open and gets beaten regularly by CO shooters?

 

[DJL2]

Is that guy C class in Open and gets beaten regularly by CO shooters?

One of the best feelings in the world was finishing up a local match and checking Practiscore to see that I beat a handful of dudes with more money into their gun than I had equity in my car with a Production pistol whose only mod was better sights ;-). Hell, any time I finished top ten in my little club it was a big night. That usually came down to other folks making mistakes more so than my shooting, to be honest.

 

[perttime]

One of the best feelings in the world was finishing up a local match and checking Practiscore to see that I beat a handful of dudes with more money into their gun than I had equity in my car with a Production pistol whose only mod was better sights ;-). ...

Happens all the time. There's guys in matches in my area shooting (IPSC) Production - and beating most of the Open and Standard (USPSA Limited equivalent) competitors. There's no prize for that but it must be cool.

Some just shoot the nice and/or elaborate guns because they can. Doesn't mean they are all that good shooters.

 

[davere]

Like everything else, you can't actually buy performance. It's the same in long range rifle, too. Once you get past a certain minimum level of equipment requirements, it's almost entirely down to the moron behind the gun, and not the equipment. In long range rifle, the minimum acceptable equipment level is more expensive than it is in USPSA, obviously, but the principle applies the same.

I like the concept of poverty Open (uh... CO), because it mimics my carry gun, and I can shoot my carry gun in that division with very little change from my carry rig (different holster, and - if I want to truly race, different mags). I intend to shoot some matches this year using that set up, just for giggles. I haven't shot a USPSA match since 2016, so it'll be fun, either way. Hell, I might even buy a sport specific rig for it (likely, a Sig P320 Legion, at this point, but who knows).

But, I'd still outrun myself with my $6k .38 Supercomp Open gun, so...

 

[Kartman]

Related to what Dave said. What lot of guys who have never shot open dont know is that its harder than you think. Many C/D class dudes have said things like "Well if I had an Open gun I could do that!" Slow your roll homie. A C/D wont automatically become an A/B by going to Open. Its a different skillset, strategy and its all at a much faster pace with less room for error.

 

[Rthur]

Only shoot some for fun/trigger time.
Something to add to trigger time is a progressive reloader.
I use a Dillon 650, cranks out the ammo.

R

 

[Ankeny]

There's guys in matches in my area shooting (IPSC) Production - and beating most of the Open and Standard (USPSA Limited equivalent) competitors. There's no prize for that but it must be cool.

Years ago I was shooting Open in B class with a $5000.00 blaster built by M2I (Matt McClearn). I was on a squad with a guy who shot a pretty much stock Glock in production. Hell, he was even cross dominate (right handed, left eye dominant). He moved like a gazelle, had lightening transitions, shot when he got there and was shooting while he was leaving. He shot a shit ton of A's, and was/is one of the nicest shooters I ever met. He kicked my ass. His name is Dave Sevigny. Ever here of him?

 

[Ankeny]

What lot of guys who have never shot open don't know is that its harder than you think.

I learned that the hard way. Made GM in Production. Made GM in Limited 10 with a 1911 (back during the magazine ban), made GM in Production. Shot an open blaster for years and years and never got past Master.

 

[Blazin]

I just made GM. All good advice above. If you have any questions feel free to send me a PM.

 

[shoot4fun]

The best shooters I was ever fortunate to know and shoot with were guys that appeared to be average. You would watch them shoot a stage and the way they broke it down was no different from mine but their time would be much faster and they hammered the A-zone. Smooth is fast.
Anytime I could be around the "super squad" guys I just watched what they did and how they did it. If I was lucky to get in the squad with a couple I always wound up shooting better than my normal.
I got within .5% of Master in L but age caught up and passed my abilities. Blurry sights and slowing reflexes, along with job changes that took up a lot of my practice time, just made me move on to other things.

 

[davere]

Years ago I was shooting Open in B class with a $5000.00 blaster built by M2I (Matt McClearn). I was on a squad with a guy who shot a pretty much stock Glock in production. Hell, he was even cross dominate (right handed, left eye dominant). He moved like a gazelle, had lightening transitions, shot when he got there and was shooting while he was leaving. He shot a shit ton of A's, and was/is one of the nicest shooters I ever met. He kicked my ass. His name is Dave Sevigny. Ever here of him?

I shot several majors with Dave and Manny Bragg when I was an M class Open shooter - they were shooting Limited. An appropriate metric for me at that point was to try to run with them and shoot similar hit factors - it was a challenge, for sure.

Another thing you realize along the way is that the difference between an Open gun and a Limited (or other iron sight gun) only becomes apparent when the targets get small (or when the stage is between 24-30 rounds, and the Open gun doesn't have to reload). On larger targets (and especially at close distances), the iron sighted gun losing nothing to the red dot sight - and in fact, it can be faster at times. It's not been unusual for top shelf GMs to beat other top-shelf GMs at what would be considered an equipment disadvantage by many folks.... (for instance... back in the day... Todd Jarrett won a couple Area matches overall shooting Limited, including beating Jerry Barnhart shooting an Open gun)

 

[502Chevelle]

I'll be shooting against Todd Jarret this weekend, or to put it more accurately, I'll be shooting in the same match as him.

 

[tlsmith22]

Lots of good advice here. I want to add one thing to the list, learn to shoot fast. By that I don’t mean at a target all the time either. At the end of each range session when I first started i would shoot into just a bank not worrying abt sights. Learn to pull the trigger fast aiming at nothing but when you are shooting at targets be smooth and it will eventually be fast but you have to teach your finger to be fast. Probably sounds crazy but it does and will work. Also, dry fire with ur finger when you are just sitting around. Learn to move your eyes to the next “target” and your hand will follow. Good luck man

Oh, the guys that said call your shots, are spot on. That’s when you can tell you are advancing.

 

[shoot4fun]

I'll be shooting against Todd Jarret this weekend, or to put it more accurately, I'll be shooting in the same match as him.

They don't come any better than Todd Jarret in my book. He never put on airs and always wanted to help the RO's on every stage. His first shot from the holster speed and accuracy always amaze me too. I've seen him shoot a Alpha in well under a second from the draw.

 

[davere]

They don't come any better than Todd Jarret in my book. He never put on airs and always wanted to help the RO's on every stage. His first shot from the holster speed and accuracy always amaze me too. I've seen him shoot a Alpha in well under a second from the draw.

Sub 1 draws are nothing special or unique. I’ve watched a couple different guys consistently draw in the low .6s to A-zones on 10 yard targets. I manage sub .8 consistently when I’m on my game.

What’s always impressed me about Todd is his ability to pick apart a stage and find the optimal plan - and then shoot it precisely and smoothly. I’ve watched him do some particularly artful stuff on some stages. No one else moves quite like he does. He’s efficient and smooth, but fast in the right way in all the right places.

 

[James Abram]

The best advice I’ve gotten from an instructor is:

Shoot slow, but do EVERYTHING else extremely fast.

in other words, drawing, moving, reloading, and presenting should all be done very fast, but slow down when you aim and fire to make sure you get your hits.

USPSA is a blast, and can really help you to hone your pistol skills and make you look like a boss when that evil PR MD throws that “pistol” stage into his match!

 

[Kartman]

The best advice I’ve gotten from an instructor is:

Shoot slow, but do EVERYTHING else extremely fast.

in other words, drawing, moving, reloading, and presenting should all be done very fast, but slow down when you aim and fire to make sure you get your hits.

USPSA is a blast, and can really help you to hone your pistol skills and make you look like a boss when that evil PR MD throws that “pistol” stage into his match!

Sort of true. Depends on the target size and distance. Im not a fan of that saying because fast is fast and slow is just slow.

Dont go slow, instead make sure you have a proper sight picture for the shot difficulty (it may be none) and see your sights lift and/or call your shot. Some might call it semantics...

 

[Kartman]

I'll be shooting against Todd Jarret this weekend, or to put it more accurately, I'll be shooting in the same match as him.

Good chance to learn from one of the best.

AZ shooters are lucky that we can shoot with/against and learn from some of the best ever on any given Tuesday or Weekend. Over the years that includes guys like Leatham, Enos, Nils, Angus, Golembieski, Burkett, Saiti and others.

 

[502Chevelle]

I’ve shot with TJ plenty of times. Living in the Carolinas gives you lots of opportunities to see and shoot against some great people. Like some above said, when Todd shoots, (and this will be a carbine cqb match) it is so smooth. It really looks like no big deal, until they call his time, and it’s easily a couple seconds faster than the rest of the squad. He has always been friendly, and sometimes I just wait on my walk through to see what he is looking at. Im always trying to pick up good ideas from better shooters. The learning never stops.

 

[perttime]

Sort of true. Depends on the target size and distance. Im not a fan of that saying because fast is fast and slow is just slow.

Dont go slow, instead make sure you have a proper sight picture for the shot difficulty (it may be none) and see your sights lift and/or call your shot. Some might call it semantics...

"Take your time in a hurry"
It takes some time and experience to know how much you need to see, and what you need to focus on, to get a particular hit.
There's been targets where I get away with seeing the silhouette of my pistol over the A-zone.
Probably my best stage in recent times was one where we had some targets at 25 meters - mostly covered with No-Shoots. I figured I need to aim well, whatever time it takes. I got the hits. Some went for shooting fast and sprayed the no-shoots instead.

... I'm sure I lose way more time starting, moving and stopping inefficiently.

 

[davere]

I just bang my head on the wall when someone refers to anything with the word "slow"... because it breeds just that... slow. I can't tell you how many students who've come to me wanting to learn to shoot faster, but they've had "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" beaten into their heads so much they won't see past it. Your brain does the algebra for you, and the result is "slow is fast". I reframe that to "smooth is quick, quick is fast".

The real answer is - do everything CORRECTLY as fucking fast as you can. Generally, this means - do the shooting at whatever pace the shooting needs to be done at (your sights and the target will dictate the pace - and as has been well discussed above, learning to call your shots is crucial here), and do everything else literally at warp speed. You should have an extreme sense of urgency to get the gun on the next target. That said - remember the word "CORRECTLY" above - no one said anything about rushing! Attempting to perform anything faster than you can do it cleanly will get you in trouble - this especially shows up on prop manipulations, etc.

There are times when you need to break a technique down to refine the movement, or to reset how you're actually performing a technique. In the context of that work, yes, slow is your friend - in fact, most people never go slow enough, and lose a good part of the benefit. But your goal should never be to stay at a "slow is the way" kind of pace (that is, if you want to learn to shoot fast well).

Movement efficiency is a topic that bites a lot of people, but really, until you hit A or M, it's not what's limiting you most. @perttime - I would be willing to bet that, if you really put a time on it and analyzed it, where you're actually losing the bulk of your time is target transitions, not movement efficiency. I have yet to encounter someone (who isn't already a GM - and this includes myself) who is just naturally fast at target transitions. You do a bunch of these in a match - and it's common to be losing 2-3 tenths per transition (or more). Let's say you have a typical 5 stage match - you've typically got somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 target transitions (give or take). That's 10-15 SECONDS across that 5 stage match. That's a conservative calculation. Your movement efficiency is probably right behind it, but target transitions are the sneaky time suck - they're not sexy to work on, like movement is, but you'd almost certainly make more hay there right away.

 

[perttime]

...

Movement efficiency is a topic that bites a lot of people, but really, until you hit A or M, it's not what's limiting you most. @perttime - I would be willing to bet that, if you really put a time on it and analyzed it, where you're actually losing the bulk of your time is target transitions, not movement efficiency. I have yet to encounter someone (who isn't already a GM - and this includes myself) who is just naturally fast at target transitions. You do a bunch of these in a match - and it's common to be losing 2-3 tenths per transition (or more). Let's say you have a typical 5 stage match - you've typically got somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 target transitions (give or take). That's 10-15 SECONDS across that 5 stage match. That's a conservative calculation. Your movement efficiency is probably right behind it, but target transitions are the sneaky time suck - they're not sexy to work on, like movement is, but you'd almost certainly make more hay there right away.

The IPSC matches that I go to don't have all that many targets to shoot from any one place. Currently, I truly suck at shooting the first target after movement.

I get the impression that USPSA has more stages where you stand and shoot many targets from one place.