yeah a while back i was squadded with him at fredericksburg. they were shooting two people at a time on a classifier and it was him against me. i told him i would make him look soooooooo good and he just laughed. he was pretty much done shooting not much after i was just out of the holster.
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Sidearms & Scatterguns Any USPSA shooters here
- Thread starter Alabusa
- Start date
Not necessarily that you have to stand and shoot, but lots of multi target arrays that you need to transition from one target to another. It could be standing still or on the move, but transitions nevertheless.
Some will, like standing in the middle of an aisle or doorway hosing everything. Some won't like shooting aggressively on the move.
Yeah being able to shoot, move and reload fast, efficient and accurately under stress are skills that never won a gunfight.
Usually 8 rounds max from a position, often less.
Steel Challenge is a great way to work on transitions, and easy to set up a stage for practice.
I really used to like that site but the mods have ruined it
Shooting out in the open without cover, shooting standing still and not reloading from cover can get you killed in a gunfight.
Stop being stupid, I beg you.
Lots of things "can" get you killed in a gunfight besides those which you mentioned.
Been in many gunfights?
You must be an IDPA shooter......go look at videos of actual gunfights to see how many are from cover
Remember IDPA Master is like...………...USPSA B class
Last edited:
There's some serious moderator asshattery there.
So... what data are you operating from? In general, I agree that standing out in the wide open receiving gun fire while you fiddle fuck with your handgun is not the brightest of ideas. But - how many documented gunfights involving civilians can you demonstrate that actually involve a reload mid-fight?
I only know of one representative data set of civilian involved shootings out there, and that's one compiled by Tom Givens. I'm not going to lay out his bona fides here - you can Google that yourself. Tom maintains a data set of shootings that have involved his students through the years. I'll provide a couple older links at the bottom, when Tom had about 60-65 documented gun fights - if memory serves, he's now over 80. I've spoken to Tom personally about this data set, and it's compelling to attend a lecture or training where he discusses it.
That data demonstrates the following concepts, among others:
- over 90% of the shootings occurred at distances closer than a car length (closer than 7 yards), but a couple happen at distances as far as 25y
- it takes, on average, 4-5 rounds to stop a threat (ranging from 1 to 11 in the data - and no, the case with 11 was not spray and pray, it was at very close range, and our "good guy" emptied his gun center of chest on the bad guy before the bad guy could react - so it might've actually taken fewer rounds to stop the guy)
- the average engagement was over in less than 3 seconds
- 50% of the shootings involve a single bad guy; the other 50% involve 2 or more
- the predominance of them occurred in a parking lot
- many (the majority, IIRC) occur under artificial light at night, but are bright enough to not require a flash light
- generally speaking, and to paraphrase Tom talking about it, "he who hits firstest with the mostest, wins"
- only 2 students lost their gun fight - and in both cases, they showed up to the gunfight without a gun
- only one student required a reload to complete the fight - and this happened during a long pause after he eliminated the initial threat (IIRC, it was a biker gang situation - he eliminated one or two of them, did an admin reload (ie, not mid-fight), and then later, more of the gang rolled up on their bikes and had to be engaged)
What we can draw from that looks like this... your ability to win the fight as a civilian is predicated on you being able to put 4-5 rounds into an 8 inch circle on a target about 7 yards away as quickly as possible. (an 8-inch circle is approximately the size of a human vital zone - the height of the sternum and width of the nipples, essentially). You're not going to reload under pressure, especially if you show up with a "multiple bad guy gun" (ie, something that holds 8 or more rounds). You are likely to not have time to seek cover, due to the distances involved and likely obstacles (cars, etc), but you should if you can. You are, however, much more likely to make accurate fire if you shoot flat footed, and much less likely to trip over random articles in the environment while you're moving a direction you're not looking.
A stupid person spends a large amount of time training for unlikely scenarios. A smart person leverages the data and spends the bulk of their time training for the predominant scenarios he might find himself in.
So... any IPSC/USPSA shooter hanging out here want to tell me what common drill the most likely scenario looks like? That's right. It's a Bill Drill... at closer than typical Bill Drill range. The bulk of the rest of the scenarios (greater than 90%) start to look like other common competition situations.
Tom's data convinced me to start carrying a full size duty gun instead of a sub-compact (either revolver or auto). Beyond that, once the problem becomes a shooting problem, Tom's data shows that the guy with the best shooting skills wins, every damn time. Last I spoke with him (it's been a few years), Tom was a proponent of competition shooting to better hone your shooting skills under pressure.
Finally, I don't speak for Tom... at all. None of the above should be construed as his gospel. This is my take away. I don't think Tom would disagree (at least, not on the major points) - and I don't think most people that've spent time looking at Tom's data would disagree, either. Anyone interested in employing any firearm for self defense would do well to seek him out for some training. Here's the links I mentioned above:
You're Going To Be In A Gunfight Tomorrow! | Firearms, Edged Weapons, Fighting Fitness and More!
An absolutely incredible article on the possibilities of not being prepared at the worst time!
blog.shooting-performance.com
Summary of gunfights by students of Tom Givens
Mas, I recall you mentioning that students of Tom Givens never lost a gunfight IF they were carrying their gun. Linked is a summary of this study of the 65 students of Tom involved in gunfights. The summary states that the three of the 65 students not carrying their guns were killed. I am sure...
www.glocktalk.com
And two articles Tom wrote for American Handgunner (by 2017, he was up to 70 fights in the database):
When Citizens Fight Back
Are We Training Wrong? The holy grail of firearms trainers and students has been to know what really happens in an armed citizen gunfight. Not in a law enforce
americanhandgunner.com
Are You Training For Fads, Fantasy Or A Fight? - American Handgunner
When I first started training people as a side-line job in 1975, you could count on one hand the people who made a living providing defensive firearms training — outside of government and police academies.
americanhandgunner.com
Come on.... IPSC, USPSA, ICORE, IDPA.... They are all games.
True enough. All are worthwhile, as long as you approach with the right attitude. And the best shooters win them all.
Also - I missed you mentioning IPSC above, apologies. I haven't shot a wide variety of IPSC matches, but I've shot a few, including the 2014 World Shoot. So, take this for what it's worth... In IPSC, with the 3-2-1 stage ratio, you actually tend to have less movement and more target transitions than we do here in USPSA (vs round count, anyway). On those 3 short stages, it's all about target transitions. Medium stages can have some movement - frequently, it seems to be shorter movement distances, though. This is actually where your movement fundamentals really shine, cause everything is entry or exit - there's very little in between. Long courses are essentially the same as USPSA field courses - and sometimes with a lot more movement than shooting vs. the USPSA equivalent. But, there's so few of them relatively to short courses...
Were I to be shooting predominantly IPSC matches, I'd actually focus more on target transitions, draws, reloads, etc, because being sharp in those areas has an even bigger effect than it does in USPSA vs. the points available. I obviously wouldn't ignore movement - and yeah, position entries are something that most people can improve on (me included). I'd also be focusing on points even more, cause the turtle targets like to suck points away vs. (so-called) Metric targets. For USPSA, we tend to focus a lot on field course skills (movement, and shoot on the move heavy), but for IPSC, speed shoot skills become more critical...
Just my impression, anyway.
All I buy for practice are classic targets. I like that the tapered A zone punishes sloppy grip a lot more.
If I want some head shots, I'll staple a 3x5 index card horizontally across the top edge.
At the IPSC matches that I've been going to, a Short Stage (max 12 rounds required), typically has 2 or 3 views. You need to move but not far. Maybe just change position from high port to low port or move from one end of a short wall to the other end.
Typically, that kind of movement falls under something I think of as "speed shoot skills" - although the short wall scenario can become real movement (anything more than a couple steps). Typically, you're not going to unmount the gun - you keep it up in shooting position and make a quick movement. These are very specific skills - typical what amounts to part of an entry from full movement. Good stuff - you have to be very technical with that stuff to be smooth and quick.
Where'd you go???
I've been doing USPSA type matches off and on for 35 years. The whole thing is a never ending learning curve.
The first thing I'd personally do is buy a air pistol, hopefully C02 one that is a copy of what you'll be using in matches. Then make yourself some type of back stop if need be.
Concentrate on all the fundamentals! There's no recoil or noise so after a while you'll figure out aspects of your form that need to be executed better.
Shoot/practice with the airgun as much as you can, it's trigger time. Of course practice and shoot matches with your centerfire pistol too.
Here's a story...
A guy I know that used to run USPSA style matches was fast but a poor shot - poor fundamentals. In an effort to win he would try to avoid putting up steel, yeah this guy was like that. He did other petty stuff but I won't go into that...
Myself and others started complaining because shooting steel is fun. It got to the point that he figured he had to put steel up or we'd go to other clubs instead (most of the money from entry fee's went into his pocket), as most of us had to drive an hour or more anyway to go to the other clubs.
You can guess what happened, yep he couldn't hit sh!t and would often run out of ammo, lol. He got better after years went by but never was a decent steel shooter.
After he included steel I won most of the matches because my strongpoint was accuracy. I'd win half the time anyway even if there was all papar stages and that was with a Browning High Power 9mm/minor PF.
Okay, I never advanced above "mid A" but I didn't have a weekly league I could shoot with like the big city's have, and only fired 5000-7000 rounds a year in matches and practice, also I never had professional instruction either. Well, wife and kids, no sponsorship, and all that kind of stuff.
About 20 years ago I bought a Olympic match 5 shot semi auto PCP air pistol. Astounding accuracy, almost a perfect 17 cal hole at 10 meters off a rest!
Practicing with it (I used both hands just like I'd do with my combat pistols) that pistol brought my confidence and accuracy to new heights I never thought possible. At my peak I remember hitting all 10 of my little 1" steels at 20Y without missing. Head shots at 20Y with my STI 40 S&W then became pretty easy because they were huge in comparison!
Long story short I worked my way up over the years at a match called the "American Handgunner World Shootoff" eventually winning B stock class, which is an "all steel man vs man" match, and a really damn hard match at that!!!
When my wife bought her little Glock 42 in 380 about 8 years ago I shot it in a IDPA match. I finished 4th and never shot out of the -0. Pretty much because of that darn PCP air pistol I practiced with!
Accuracy first, then speed! After about 100,000 rounds of centerfire pistol ammo - maybe more, you'll be a high A, or Master class shooter.
Man that's a lot of ammo if you think about it!!!
And think about this, a pesky little C02 pistol could help defray some of that cost and time, especially for a beginner who's trying to get the fundamentals down!
I too, recommend, eventually being taught by a M class instructor. Wish I had been, because I know a guy local to me, that's friends with Rob Leatham, was trained by him, and in a few years we locals were totally outclassed by his newfound skills.
Thanks for all the advice, book recommendations and websites. I have a lot to take in and put into practice. It is all much appreciated!
I disagree with "accuracy first then speed"
Too many people never move past accuracy. To be successful in USPSA, IPSC, IDPA, etc one must work on accuracy and speed in parallel.
Notice I didn't say "work on speed and accuracy a the same time". There's a difference.
The right way is to incorporate separate accuracy and speed drills during the same session, or devote one session to accuracy and the very next session on speed, etc.
Working on accuracy only before focusing on speed leads to most people who try that approach to being accurate, slow shooters that get 95%+ As but get shit for hit factor.
Too many people never move past accuracy. To be successful in USPSA, IPSC, IDPA, etc one must work on accuracy and speed in parallel.
Notice I didn't say "work on speed and accuracy a the same time". There's a difference.
The right way is to incorporate separate accuracy and speed drills during the same session, or devote one session to accuracy and the very next session on speed, etc.
Working on accuracy only before focusing on speed leads to most people who try that approach to being accurate, slow shooters that get 95%+ As but get shit for hit factor.
Last edited:
It’s 5.30am, I had to work late and have only slept about 4 hours. It’s a 2.5 hr drive each way. The ride home is going to be rough. I keep telling myself I do this because it’s fun.
Accuracy first "is the foundation" which speed is built upon!
Just like you tell shooters to do in your SH pistol dot drill torture challenge thread.
Here is a quote from you/308 Pirate;Nov 2, 2019
- Add bookmark
- #128
-
Good advice above. Speed w/ out accuracy is just noise & waste. Apply the fundamentals. It’s not magic. Good things will happen.
You’ve got to crawl before you can walk.
Me/steve123 - I think you misunderstood me, "accuracy first" is foundationally "the FOUNDATION", right??!! lol.
Here's two more stories.
My newly married wifey with zero experience using a pistol... I bought her a single stroke pneumatic air pistol at walmart for $39 to start off with and I taught her the basics of pistol marksmanship in one afternoon. Females listen and are quick studies.
I had my plate rack, with six 4" steel rounds, made for low powered airguns, at 10 yards that is usually intended for "speed" shooting, for her to practice on.
Day1 - at first she would hit a steel once in 5 shots. Every afternoon afterwards we'd go into the backyard to practice. Day2 - getting better. Day3 - she's hitting half the time now. Day4 - still improving. End of the weekend now about a week later. She's hitting 5 out of 6 or cleaning the rack! Literally in less than 300 pellets!
My adult daughter comes visiting every year for vacation. Year by year we go out and I teach her pistol fundamentals for something fun to do together. She doesn't shoot "at all" otherwise. Years later we go to the local shooting range. Right next to us are law enforcement officers training with their pistols.
We have our paper targets at the same distance, 10-15 yards away, I can't recall exactly.
We all go down to examine our targets. My daughter has a 5" group consisting 18 rounds. None of the LE officers came anywhere close to a group this small. I actually was embarrassed for them - from the looks on their faces I could tell they were too, and of course I being super proud of my kid!!!!
Last year, my daughter moved here to my property to stay with us for the summer to unwind from the Architecture world and to launch her own business.
She comes to our Field Target air rifle matches with us and gives the sport a try.
Month #1 - after the regular match, in the practice match on the next day, she only misses 4 targets out of 48 shots!
Month #2- amazingly she wins Freestyle division her first try.
Month #3 - she wins again, and on the next day shoots a perfect score on the same COF!!!!!!!!!!!!
Month #4 - repeat and this time I shot with her practicing the same COF the next day, SHE FRIGGEN shoots a perfect score again and beats me by one point, LOL. Little brat!
Airguns of Arizona hear through the grapevine that a new shooter is doing things none of us have even heard of before concerning a new shooter, and sponsors her with $2800 worth of gear to shoot for them!
State match comes `- I shot in freestyle division and thankfully I beat the bratty kid. BTW it's the division I usually shoot in, just not during the regular season because I wanted to do something different.
FOUNDATION!!!!
Back to pistols and USPSA or IDPA, I never said speed wasn't important but anybody can hose close paper. Put steel in, move the paper farther out, and that changes things. - But yes, once the basics have been gotten down decently, "both speed and accuracy" need to be worked on simultaneously.
The bottom line in uspsa is, you need to shoot A’s as fast as you safely can. If you shoot A’s, but stand there all day doing it, the timer will eat you for lunch, so there has to be a balance. Balance. You can only go as fast as your front sight tells you that you can.
Also went 37/75 today, so I’ll take it. We always want to do better, but for my current (back sliding) level, I will take it.
Also went 37/75 today, so I’ll take it. We always want to do better, but for my current (back sliding) level, I will take it.
You need speed. You need accuracy. No doubt about either. But the skill you actually need to learn is discerning exactly what comprises adequate sight picture and follow through for every target presentation you’re shown. That means everything from looking over the top of the slide and burning A-zones at 3 yards, to a hard front sight focus and a smooth 90 degree trigger press then follow the sights back into target before resetting the trigger while connecting with the A-zone at 50+ yards.
I’ve taught and worked with a whole bunch of shooters. I’ve shot with and watched the development of a bunch more. No one will be highly successful unless they learn how to do all three. But, a pattern emerges - the guys who start leaning on speed early show a much greater ability to learn how to also shoot accurately than the guys who solely embrace accuracy first. For whatever reason, it seems to be harder for the second group to let go of that hard front sight focus with perfect follow through - even on 3yd targets.
You have to break some eggs to make omelettes. If you ever hit a point where you’re willing to let go and go fast at the (temporary) expense of some points, you will never go fast. The “accuracy before all else” dogmatic guys just seem to have a hard time grasping that concept.
Speed is not built on accuracy - it’s diametrically opposed to it on a continuum. Speed is built on solid fundamental gun handling skills. Accuracy is built on solid, repeatable trigger manipulation skills and precise use of the aiming system on the handgun. Finding the right point on that continuum is the third skill mentioned above. If you can’t learn to slide along that scale, you’ll be limited in your progress as an IPSC/USPSA shooter.
The cool thing is - rifle shooting has that same continuum. It’s obviously shifted much more toward the “perfect sight picture and follow through” side of things, but you’ll still find situations where you need to shoot with a less than perfect position or sight picture, etc. The gun handling is quite a bit different, obviously, and what counts as speed is quite a bit slower paced. Same concepts apply, in the end.
I’ve taught and worked with a whole bunch of shooters. I’ve shot with and watched the development of a bunch more. No one will be highly successful unless they learn how to do all three. But, a pattern emerges - the guys who start leaning on speed early show a much greater ability to learn how to also shoot accurately than the guys who solely embrace accuracy first. For whatever reason, it seems to be harder for the second group to let go of that hard front sight focus with perfect follow through - even on 3yd targets.
You have to break some eggs to make omelettes. If you ever hit a point where you’re willing to let go and go fast at the (temporary) expense of some points, you will never go fast. The “accuracy before all else” dogmatic guys just seem to have a hard time grasping that concept.
Speed is not built on accuracy - it’s diametrically opposed to it on a continuum. Speed is built on solid fundamental gun handling skills. Accuracy is built on solid, repeatable trigger manipulation skills and precise use of the aiming system on the handgun. Finding the right point on that continuum is the third skill mentioned above. If you can’t learn to slide along that scale, you’ll be limited in your progress as an IPSC/USPSA shooter.
The cool thing is - rifle shooting has that same continuum. It’s obviously shifted much more toward the “perfect sight picture and follow through” side of things, but you’ll still find situations where you need to shoot with a less than perfect position or sight picture, etc. The gun handling is quite a bit different, obviously, and what counts as speed is quite a bit slower paced. Same concepts apply, in the end.
In his old book, Brian Enos talks quite a bit about different types of "focus": seeing/experiensing exactly what you need for a shot. There were at least:
- Target focus: you see the target, and it is enough to see fuzzy sights, or even just silhoutte of the pistol, over the area you want to hit.
- Sight focus: the target is fuzzy and the front sight is sharp over the area where you want to hit.
- Trigger focus: your sharp front sight is over the area you want to hit but you focus on your trigger finger to ensure the sight does not leave the area.
During a match course of fire you don't have time to think and choose your focus. Ideally, with practice and experience, the appropriate focus "comes to you" when you need it for a particular shot.
^^^Thats when you have practiced enough that you have laid a foundation and your skills have become the proper habits and you don’t have so many bad habits. You don’t have to “think” about it. It’s shooting subconsciously versus consciously. You have to push that speed envelope, but its hard to make up points from a lot of C/D hits, especially if you are shooting minor.
Yeah... Brian describes 5 focus "types" in the book (Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals). They're not couched as target vs front sight vs trigger, per se, though he notes that his focus would be directed at those things depending on the shot demands. He also clarified via his forum that when he wrote that stuff, he wasn't intending to tell people what they should see or experience in a particular situation - rather, he was trying to describe what he experiences as a way to describe things that people may encounter or find necessary, etc.
That book fucks a lot of people up until they're ready for it. At a very high level, it's one of the best books written on the subject, but if you don't understand where Brian's coming from and try to take it all as an instruction manual, it's going to send you out in the weeds! I usually don't point people at that book until they've got some time behind the gun and have been shooting enough practice and matches to start asking the kinds of questions that book might answer for them.
Also... if you choose to run an RDS on your handgun, some of the concepts Brian describes about switching visual focus between target and sights become sort of moot. Namely, you're going to be shooting with a target focus the whole time (unless you want to be slow and have worse hits).
In fact, if you find yourself trying to choose which focus you're going to shoot, you're doing it wrong. In practice, you can force a particular level or style of focus - that's a good time to dial in what works and what doesn't for a particular situation. In a match or other performance situation, your brain needs to already understand what's going to work so it can switch gears subconsciously and "give" you the performance you tell it you need.
Visualization helps here, too - you can set up key points you need to see/feel for each target, and that can involve trigger control, visual focus, etc. Visualization is a very individual thing, so you have to experiment on how to make that work best for you, but... I can give myself the general area I think I should be in (physically, visually, trigger control, etc), and my body will work within those rough parameters to do what needs doing.
Ability level - that's why there are classifications - D to GM, right??!! OP is likely a D class shooter.
Some of you guys are talking about advanced methods and abilities. The OP is just getting into the sport, right! C'mon man let's point our focus towards what he needs now, not how to get from A to M.
Right now in his developement, speed is secondary. Fundamentals are the priority and the "BALANCE" right now are THE BASICS! Speed is a timing thing, it's a muscle memory thing, an economy of motion thing, it only comes after thousands rounds, or more likely 10's of thousands of rounds, of practice and shooting in matches.
Okay answer this then, what's happens when a new shooter, shoots past his current ability level, (or anyone for that matter) and that was a rhetorical question. He misses, hits no-shoots, hits hard cover but doesn't see he did, and get's penalties, or shoots D's and C's, takes 2 or more shots to each steel. He's making mental mistakes too and he might even be "UNSAFE" and risking or getting DQ'd. In other words he learned that he "isn't there yet"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OP, you go and have fun and don't worry about speed. As you get more experience you'll get better in all areas. Don't become one of those dumbass hosers that make a fool of themselves because they didn't learn how to be accurate with a pistol.
Recent story;
Last year some guy wearing a Jersey shows up to our 3gun match. He's from LV, has all the fancy gear, talks it up, etc, supposedly been doing this stuff for years. Us local yokels are thinking, damn, this guy is going to kick our ass's bad.
What a shitshow that guy created for himself! ^all of what I mentioned 2 paragraphs up happened^, he even got DQ'd by the RO on a stage because he threw his pistol on the table so fast the safety came off.
Don't be that guy!!! Start out "right and tight", not "wrong and a Dong", lol.
Some of you guys are talking about advanced methods and abilities. The OP is just getting into the sport, right! C'mon man let's point our focus towards what he needs now, not how to get from A to M.
Right now in his developement, speed is secondary. Fundamentals are the priority and the "BALANCE" right now are THE BASICS! Speed is a timing thing, it's a muscle memory thing, an economy of motion thing, it only comes after thousands rounds, or more likely 10's of thousands of rounds, of practice and shooting in matches.
Okay answer this then, what's happens when a new shooter, shoots past his current ability level, (or anyone for that matter) and that was a rhetorical question. He misses, hits no-shoots, hits hard cover but doesn't see he did, and get's penalties, or shoots D's and C's, takes 2 or more shots to each steel. He's making mental mistakes too and he might even be "UNSAFE" and risking or getting DQ'd. In other words he learned that he "isn't there yet"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OP, you go and have fun and don't worry about speed. As you get more experience you'll get better in all areas. Don't become one of those dumbass hosers that make a fool of themselves because they didn't learn how to be accurate with a pistol.
Recent story;
Last year some guy wearing a Jersey shows up to our 3gun match. He's from LV, has all the fancy gear, talks it up, etc, supposedly been doing this stuff for years. Us local yokels are thinking, damn, this guy is going to kick our ass's bad.
What a shitshow that guy created for himself! ^all of what I mentioned 2 paragraphs up happened^, he even got DQ'd by the RO on a stage because he threw his pistol on the table so fast the safety came off.
Don't be that guy!!! Start out "right and tight", not "wrong and a Dong", lol.
You are right, the OP was looking for info, and we kind of ran with it. To the OP, go shoot a match! It is a lot of fun. It may be a little overwhelming at first, but it’s a great game to play. I would shoot what you have, don’t spend money till you go to a couple matches, and see what works, and what doesn’t. That way you won’t end up spending money twice. I still recommend lessons, even if they are expensive. It’s a great game. Welcome to the addiction!
Competition is an amazing way to figure out that you suck, so you can finally begin to really learn to shoot.
Don't do PCC unless it's an occasional fun thing. It's a handgun competition. Shoot a handgun.
I have really enjoyed Limited. More shooting, less loading, and a lot easier to plan stages when you have 23 rounds in your gun. I shoot with a humble stock Glock 45 with extended mags I've been borrowing from a buddy, or standard mags.
Production is cool because you aren't going against pure race guns, but there's still a lot of semi-race guns in that class (the new Walthers, the CZ Shadow 2, etc.) that just murder. Production seems simple but it is probably one of the most difficult classes purely because of the skills required to quickly reload and to carefully plan stages and control mistakes well. Great learning class but probably not a good one to start in.
If you want to shoot your carry gun, Limited is probably the way to go. If you have an optic on your gun, shoot Carry Optics.
Everyone I've met at matches has been super helpful. Great community, and lots of guys willing to help you learn.
Don't do PCC unless it's an occasional fun thing. It's a handgun competition. Shoot a handgun.
I have really enjoyed Limited. More shooting, less loading, and a lot easier to plan stages when you have 23 rounds in your gun. I shoot with a humble stock Glock 45 with extended mags I've been borrowing from a buddy, or standard mags.
Production is cool because you aren't going against pure race guns, but there's still a lot of semi-race guns in that class (the new Walthers, the CZ Shadow 2, etc.) that just murder. Production seems simple but it is probably one of the most difficult classes purely because of the skills required to quickly reload and to carefully plan stages and control mistakes well. Great learning class but probably not a good one to start in.
If you want to shoot your carry gun, Limited is probably the way to go. If you have an optic on your gun, shoot Carry Optics.
Everyone I've met at matches has been super helpful. Great community, and lots of guys willing to help you learn.
Check out That Shooting Show podcast with Steve Anderson a Grand Master shooter turned full time trainer. I listen to it regularly. A lot of good info.
I shot my first few USPSA matches last year and it was a ton of fun. I shoot production class. By no means am I great. I just like to compete rather than standing still shooting at one target at my local indoor range.
I shot a few IDPA matches till I shot my first USPSA match. I don't shoot IDPA anymore.
I set up a small area in my basement to do dry fire a couple times a week. Bought a few books from Ben Stoeger and Steve Anderson. Along with some scaled down targets I stuck to a wall for practice.
This year I'm giving PRS a go. I'm gonna shoot both disciplines and have a blast all year.
Good luck in your journey and have fun!
I shot my first few USPSA matches last year and it was a ton of fun. I shoot production class. By no means am I great. I just like to compete rather than standing still shooting at one target at my local indoor range.
I shot a few IDPA matches till I shot my first USPSA match. I don't shoot IDPA anymore.
I set up a small area in my basement to do dry fire a couple times a week. Bought a few books from Ben Stoeger and Steve Anderson. Along with some scaled down targets I stuck to a wall for practice.
This year I'm giving PRS a go. I'm gonna shoot both disciplines and have a blast all year.
Good luck in your journey and have fun!
LOL the look on some people's faces when I use my M&P9 5" duty gun in stock configuration and still come out on top shooting limited minor against people with STI's and other race guns shooting limited major
HATERS GON HATE LOL. I shoot carry optics because my department finally allowed pistol mounted red dot sights (PMRDS) and it's a great way for me to practice
Got my pistol ready for next months USPSA match and this weekend IDPA match.
Canik TP9SFx with Vortex Venom 3moa, Freedomsmith "Pro" trigger and Galloway Precision spring kit.
Canik TP9SFx with Vortex Venom 3moa, Freedomsmith "Pro" trigger and Galloway Precision spring kit.
mine has the viper, i think 6moa. with that freedomsmith trigger, it's a pretty nice gun, certainly for the money. there is some tiny fishing lure split ring that supposed really helps out the trigger pull, changes the geometry slightly, haven't gotten that yet.
I read about the split ring mod but went with the spring kit from Galloway Precision instead.
who said anything about USPSA being the way to shoot in a gunfight. Il wager the guys with that training who KNOW enough not to stand in the wide open and shoot would clean out most rooms. Maybe thats why the Military asked Leatham, Avery, Frank Garcia and many other Grandmasters to train their soldiers.
That guy you responded to is an idiot, his comments typical of some who can't shoot so he hides behind the "but muh tactics" argument. Good thing he's gone.
Another thread back from the grave!
Here’s what you need to know about USPSA:
1. Be safe.
2. Enjoy yourself.
Everything else, phhht
Here’s what you need to know about USPSA:
1. Be safe.
2. Enjoy yourself.
Everything else, phhht
If you are new to the run and gun sports, the mental energy spent on not getting DQed for something basic is quite high. As you get more matches under your belt, you will find that the safety aspects of the game will be running on autopilot for you. That will free up some mental energy to reapply to your marksmanship at speed. Once your marksmanship gets to running on autopilot enough to have confidence in calling your shots, then you can reassign that mental energy to sharpen up your stage breakdown and planning.
Newer shooters tend to blink during every shot and they lose a lot of information about what the gun is doing throughout its recoil cycle. For a short practice session, pick a small aiming point on the berm about 10-20 yards away and send a shot at it. Make yourself watch the front sight lift and settle back down without blinking. A lot of shooters will play with different recoil spring weights in order to get their gun to run as flat as possible. Ideally, you want the gun's sights to settle right back down over the impact point you just made without the muzzle dipping down below that point during the recoil cycle. A flat running gun will help a bunch with your split times.
Having a gun that points naturally for you is another big plus. A lot of time can be wasted on the first shot from the draw if you have to hunt for a sight picture vs having the sights naturally aligned and sitting there waiting for you. The same thing applies when you get to a new firing position and extend out at a new target. You want your sight picture on extension to be able to instinctively point to where you are looking on the target.
Newer shooters tend to blink during every shot and they lose a lot of information about what the gun is doing throughout its recoil cycle. For a short practice session, pick a small aiming point on the berm about 10-20 yards away and send a shot at it. Make yourself watch the front sight lift and settle back down without blinking. A lot of shooters will play with different recoil spring weights in order to get their gun to run as flat as possible. Ideally, you want the gun's sights to settle right back down over the impact point you just made without the muzzle dipping down below that point during the recoil cycle. A flat running gun will help a bunch with your split times.
Having a gun that points naturally for you is another big plus. A lot of time can be wasted on the first shot from the draw if you have to hunt for a sight picture vs having the sights naturally aligned and sitting there waiting for you. The same thing applies when you get to a new firing position and extend out at a new target. You want your sight picture on extension to be able to instinctively point to where you are looking on the target.
Excellent post
One thing I want to clear up for newer shooters: a pistol that shoots "flat" doesn't mean it doesn't have muzzle rise. The muzzle will rise, there is no way to humanly stop it. What you want is for it to rise a small amount and for it to not dip below the POA when the slide slams shut in battery.
A proper grip is key, without it there is no predictable and controllable recoil pattern, The recoil spring tuning is the final adjustment.
For those shooting the 1911/2011 platforms, give some variable rate recoil springs a try. They help reduce initial muzzle lift and offer a softer return to battery to help avoid dipping below POA. At the rear of slide travel, they still have the benefit of enough stored energy to reliably feed the next round from the top of the magazine. If you spring your gun too light with a straight weight recoil spring, you may eventually notice that the gun cycles too slow for you as your shooting ability gets better. You want the gun to run faster than, or at a minimum on par with your ability to pick up the front sight on target.
The spring and parts configuration I run on my 1911 is kind of unconventional. Most people set their 1911s up lightly sprung on the recoil spring and mainspring, but my thumbs tend to drag against the slide too much and cause a feed stoppage. I run an oversize firing pin stop with about a 1/64" radius on the bottom corner that cocks the hammer. That's teamed up with a Wolff 16.5lb variable recoil spring and a 23lb mainspring. My double taps at speed are usually within a 2-3" of each other without much thought on my part. I've tried other spring weight combinations and none of them track as well for me.
The spring and parts configuration I run on my 1911 is kind of unconventional. Most people set their 1911s up lightly sprung on the recoil spring and mainspring, but my thumbs tend to drag against the slide too much and cause a feed stoppage. I run an oversize firing pin stop with about a 1/64" radius on the bottom corner that cocks the hammer. That's teamed up with a Wolff 16.5lb variable recoil spring and a 23lb mainspring. My double taps at speed are usually within a 2-3" of each other without much thought on my part. I've tried other spring weight combinations and none of them track as well for me.
I was wearing out Wolff variables (unless things have changed, they're the only ones that make them) in less than 1000 rounds. Quality is a little variable over at Wolff, unfortunately.
You can definitely go too light - I know guys that used to run 7-8# variable recoil springs in their .40s, and they'd stop them (thumb drag, typically) any time they got a little tense. Once you get past reliable running (10# is about as light as I'm comfortable with in a .40, and prolly 13-14# in a .45, personally), it boils down to how you want the gun to move (trading longer dwell on target for softer overall feel - and impact between the hood/guiderod head/frame vs impact on the link/lower lug/slide stop).
It's good that you call out FP stop radius and mainspring weight - I think most folks miss those variables, and they all tie in to perceived gun movement (and they all need to be appropriate for the gun and caliber that's being run).
The thing is - you can change each of those variables to some degree, and it'll feel off at first (and require you to pay more attention to the gun), but if you allow yourself to adjust, there ends up being a surprisingly wide range of adjustment you can make and still be able to time the gun correctly, and run it as fast as you're capable of - but leave one variable the same, and it tends to cause the others to want to be the same, too. Changing the FP stop radius/angle has a pretty dramatic effect on perceived flip and recoil, as it turns out.
You wouldn't by chance shoot Weaver stance? (weird question, I know - and not intended to be perjorative)
No Weaver stance for me. I’m usually squared up to the targets while running and gunning.
As far as variable recoil rate spring life, I change them out about every 1k rounds anyway. I do check every so often by press checking with a 5/8” deep socket standing up on a scale pushing against the muzzle end of the slide. I’ll push down on the grip until I feel the slide bottom on the frame and just back off a little to see my current poundage.
For those shooters with striker fired guns, keep in mind that going too light on the recoil spring can contribute to failure to go into battery. The recoil spring and striker spring forces oppose each other. It helps to step down in striker spring weight to help with this. You can only go so low before getting light strikes, though.
You have to remember and understand you are only competing against you. Yes there are others there and they are better shooters than you, but watch the good finishers and see what they are doing (ie cutting across no shooting areas to reduce time) ask why people do what they do. It’s a game, learning in to play the game will cut time off and better scores Overall.
I was a cop when I started and I used USPSA as a way to sharpen my shooting skills. My simple qual at work was a nothing as there was no movement or thinking (Just battling the clock). I also wasn’t worried about making A‘s all the time, as putting rounds on targets was more important for my police work than making “C” “B” “A” “M” or “GM”. Missing or No SHoot was/is more important to me.
I had a stroke and had to retire from policing and my USPSA shooting has been off and on since then, life happens, then Covid, lack of reloading components. Last match I shot in I went slowly and got nothing but A’s and the clock really wore my scoring out. But I decided when I get back into it I am going to work on A’s and know the speed will pick back up with practice.
I was a cop when I started and I used USPSA as a way to sharpen my shooting skills. My simple qual at work was a nothing as there was no movement or thinking (Just battling the clock). I also wasn’t worried about making A‘s all the time, as putting rounds on targets was more important for my police work than making “C” “B” “A” “M” or “GM”. Missing or No SHoot was/is more important to me.
I had a stroke and had to retire from policing and my USPSA shooting has been off and on since then, life happens, then Covid, lack of reloading components. Last match I shot in I went slowly and got nothing but A’s and the clock really wore my scoring out. But I decided when I get back into it I am going to work on A’s and know the speed will pick back up with practice.
You get out of USPSA what you want to. I've seen guys that would shoot exactly what they carried, they just wanted to have another avenue to practice. I used to use my duty gun with level 3 holster, made a high B, ready to make A with a SW 5906. This was at Dam Neck, then 9-11 happened and never really started up again. It was fun and learned a bunch.
One guy(SEAL) would either shoot his race gun or show up with his P226. He always did well and half the reason he shot his 226 was to shut up the guys who said that he was only good with his race rig. Of course he (TS) was 2nd in the match, the match directer that was never seen shooting was always 1st.
Ref the grand master, etc. look up where they earned it from, if it was at one club, chances are you will beat them.
One guy(SEAL) would either shoot his race gun or show up with his P226. He always did well and half the reason he shot his 226 was to shut up the guys who said that he was only good with his race rig. Of course he (TS) was 2nd in the match, the match directer that was never seen shooting was always 1st.
Ref the grand master, etc. look up where they earned it from, if it was at one club, chances are you will beat them.
LOLOLOL.........Probably a quarter of that number is true these days. And not because classifiers have become easier. Quite this opposite in fact.
Looking back at it this thread has a few posts that didn't age well.
