Anyone ever had this happen..?

[regency]

I finally got a sweet load developed for my 338 AXMC rifle. Its was shooting an ES of 6fps across 10 shots and was shooting .5-.6" groups at 100yds

At 1000yds it was shooting 2-4" groups on steel


2 weeks later I go back out the the range with that same batch of ammo I reloaded and I was all over the place at distance.
Extreme spread opened up to 30+fps and groups opened to 1.2" at 100yds. I was lucky to be able to hit the 1000yd steel plate.
Little to no wind, same temps and humidity as first time I went to the range, same range, same shooting position, everything...
Scope was still zeroed, just larger groups (mount and scope are tightened to max inch lb. torque specs)

Velocity of the rounds was still in the range that they were when I first shot them (2720-2740ish range)

Load data:

Lapua Brass
Federal 215M Primers (89gr)
H1000 Powder
Hornady 285gr ELDM's (.065 off lands)

I wouldn't think anything happened to the ammo while it sat..?

 

[Juggerxxx]

How much time between loading up this batch of rounds and the first time you were out with good groups and awesome SDs?

I ask because I have had this happen to me even when the temperature for each day was close. I found that I was cleaning the insides of my necks too much and over time the bullets were sticking like they had been glued while seated.
Pull one and See how hard it is to remove.

 

[regency]

Well I would say the dwell time was truly about 3+ weeks that the loads were sitting.

I wet media tumble my brass, maybe that is the issue?

 

[Killswitch Engage]

stop wet tumbling your brass. squeaky clean brass coming from a stainless media is not only too clean with zero carbon in the neck it is also peened/hardened from the stainless.

you are getting cold weld between your bullet and your case creating high neck tension and inconsistencies after it has sat loaded.

 

[SageRatSafaris]

>too clean

This is a new concept to me. Why wouldn't this be a problem for factory loaded ammunition in new brass?

 

[regency]

>too clean

This is a new concept to me. Why wouldn't this be a problem for factory loaded ammunition in new brass?

Yeah that’s odd. I wonder if they treat their brass or bullets in some kind of way prior to loading?

 

[Kadams1563]

Use dry neck line when seating Bullets. This is what I was shown and what I have done since.

 

[Airw4ves]

I experienced the same thing with my new Lapua brass. I loaded a bunch for a course, and never ended up shooting 100rnds. Went to the range in the Spring and found while zeroing, that my rounds were all over the map. Similar temps to load development and same range. Could definitely be my fault but found it odd that it was consistently poor groups.

I had just about pulled the pin on a wet tumbling setup, but have since held off and went with a good vibratory setup for the reason mentioned above. Also, more consistent bullet seating due to carbon in the neck.

 

[Milo 2.5]

>too clean

This is a new concept to me. Why wouldn't this be a problem for factory loaded ammunition in new brass?

I think over the coarse of time it does become an issue. All new brass is annealed, then polished to some extent, leaving some residue resembling a lubricant on the cases, so slightly diff than almost bare metal.
I've found transporting ammo back and forth to the range and not firing it created a shit show for me, it may have been bullets adhering to the necks, but I do not ss tumble, I think it was powder settling and getting packed in.

 

[regency]

Do you think I could use imperial dry neck lube to offset wet tumbling going forward?

or does my wet tumbler need to go?

 

[Airw4ves]

That would help with more consistent bullet seating and likely with the effect you’re seeing

 

[Kadams1563]

Plenty of people wet tumble. Dip Bullets in dry lube and seat them.

 

[Juggerxxx]

What was your shooting position and situation like on the two different trips? What was your frame of mind and comfort zone like?
I ask because shooting a 338LM is nothing like shooting a 223 for me. My 223 groups on a bad day are ok but my 338 groups on a bad day are fuckn shity. The difference with shooting prone vs on a bench are big for me.
I think frank even has a video covering velocity differences with probe and on the bench.

 

[Juggerxxx]

How about cleaning the barrel and see if it helps?

 

[regency]

What was your shooting position and situation like on the two different trips? What was your frame of mind and comfort zone like?
I ask because shooting a 338LM is nothing like shooting a 223 for me. My 223 groups on a bad day are ok but my 338 groups on a bad day are fuckn shity. The difference with shooting prone vs on a bench are big for me.
I think frank even has a video covering velocity differences with probe and on the bench.

I was good, I've got 100 rounds down the tube on my 338. I shoot it like I do my 6.5

I do all my shooting prone with the same rear bag.

 

[mdmp5]

Wet tumble for less time. For the record, I have been wet tumbling for 9 years, and my necks are never even close to spotless. I now tumble for about an hour, and they have plenty of carbon inside

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I get the same problem with 300 H&H rounds stored for a while. Shake the cases around a little to get the powder moved around. Keep it simple.

 

[regency]

Just to give everyone an update.

I purchased the imperial dry lube that comes in the 2 small canisters (one is a refill and one is the synthetic material you dip in)

I decided the best way to do it was to dip the bottom half of the bullet into the dry lube media and do a quarter turn. Then press the bullet into the case. I had to adjust my micrometer up several thousands because bullets started to go in easier.

Did a range session yesterday after the bullets had been sitting for a little while. My group tightened by .2" at 100 to .4" group and my extreme spread dropped down to 5fps (2.4 SD)

I think for now on I will be dipping all of my bullets into the dry lube prior to loading.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I don't understand why you need to adjust the micrometer because you dry lube the bullet.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I don't understand why you need to adjust the micrometer because you dry lube the bullet.

It's perfectly natural, he reduced the seating force needed.

 

[Juggerxxx]

It's perfectly natural, he reduced the seating force needed.

He’s right. I didn’t understnd it either but it happens. Happens when your neck tension is different as well.

 

[Juggerxxx]

Just to give everyone an update.

I purchased the imperial dry lube that comes in the 2 small canisters (one is a refill and one is the synthetic material you dip in)

I decided the best way to do it was to dip the bottom half of the bullet into the dry lube media and do a quarter turn. Then press the bullet into the case. I had to adjust my micrometer up several thousands because bullets started to go in easier.

Did a range session yesterday after the bullets had been sitting for a little while. My group tightened by .2" at 100 to .4" group and my extreme spread dropped down to 5fps (2.4 SD)

I think for now on I will be dipping all of my bullets into the dry lube prior to loading.

Good to hear and thanks for the update!
Another trick you can try that has worked for me is seating your bullets long. Then the night before or the day you hit the range, do a final seating. You wouldn’t believe how bad some stick in the neck and are hard to break the tension.

 

[regency]

Good to hear and thanks for the update!
Another trick you can try that has worked for me is seating your bullets long. Then the night before or the day you hit the range, do a final seating. You wouldn’t believe how bad some stick in the neck and are hard to break the tension.

Any idea on how far you initially seat them, then push them down right before firing? I have a 25rds loaded up of my new load. I will probably wait 2 weeks before firing to see how they do.

 

[Juggerxxx]

you just need to break the “weld” so as long as your seating them at least another ~0.020” on the final seating you should be fine. You will be amazed at how much force some the bullets require to seat and the cracking sound they make when breaking that “weld”. The real problem is the inconsistency; some do it and some don’t and that is what could be causing your larger groups and big SDs.

 

[pmclaine]

Im going to abandon my chosen annealer because he wet tumbles prior to providing the service I need.

Sure I loved having the pretty brass come back but I found when running a neck ball (and I dont want to abandon the ball because some of my semi auto necks take it hard on ejection) pulling that ball through the carbon free brass totally sucks.

Im currently loading .308 and have two batches of brass one once fired corn tumbled the other fresh annealed steel pin.

Thanks to this Ill pay attention to seating pressure/length to Ogive between the two.

Hoping some added NuFinish car wax in my corn cob will create some slip and slide during bullet seating.

 

[Juggerxxx]

Just to give everyone an update.

I purchased the imperial dry lube that comes in the 2 small canisters (one is a refill and one is the synthetic material you dip in)

I decided the best way to do it was to dip the bottom half of the bullet into the dry lube media and do a quarter turn. Then press the bullet into the case. I had to adjust my micrometer up several thousands because bullets started to go in easier.

Did a range session yesterday after the bullets had been sitting for a little while. My group tightened by .2" at 100 to .4" group and my extreme spread dropped down to 5fps (2.4 SD)

I think for now on I will be dipping all of my bullets into the dry lube prior to loading.

I just wanted to add something to this as well if you are interested.

I went this same route for a while with the dry lube. Yeah it fixed the issue but for me but it was fixing an issue that didn’t need to be an issue. The issue was cleaning my necks to well and not taking advantage of the natural carbon lube leftover from firing. So I ditched the stainless steel media and went to only hand washing the brass every other time and only tumbling in wallnut media ever other time. Sure my brass is not the sexiest on the range but my groups are.

 

[Bulldog10]

Jeff Brozovich has been talking about this for quite some time over on Longrange only. That’s why he said he started HBN coating his Bullets. I think I’ll try the dry lube trick. I get tired of coating bullets. I don’t see a lot of people running dirty brass into a set of $200+ dies. I’ll stick to my SS wet tumbling but that’s just me.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Won a match last Satuday using ammo I reloaded over six months ago. They were stored bullets up so I just turned the case upside down and shook it up a bit. Brass was 308 and had been reused several times and never cleaned except the outside with a little mineral spirits on a rag. Dope didn't change from the last time at the same range. Look further back in time when wildcatters and bench shooters were reloading at the bench to save time during testing and getting fucked up groupings. The solution was to roll the reloaded cartridge on the bench before chambering to loosen up and disperse the powder a little. Not every problem needs more money and time thrown at before the standards have been tried. Even compressed loads that have been stored can use a little movement or vibration even though the powder is packed. As an aside, I've never been a proponent of over cleaning brass no different than annealing is a necessity. It makes about as much sense as over cleaning a barrel so I've never been down those rabbit holes. But both are big business and I will never know the difference except I saw a lot of overbore cartridges all nice, shinny, and annealed on the line the other day. They seemed to be having all sorts of problems and they were all pulling out the X-Files trying to figure things out.

 

[regency]

Won a match last Satuday using ammo I reloaded over six months ago. They were stored bullets up so I just turned the case upside down and shook it up a bit. Brass was 308 and had been reused several times and never cleaned except the outside with a little mineral spirits on a rag. Dope didn't change from the last time at the same range. Look further back in time when wildcatters and bench shooters were reloading at the bench to save time during testing and getting fucked up groupings. The solution was to roll the reloaded cartridge on the bench before chambering to loosen up and disperse the powder a little. Not every problem needs more money and time thrown at before the standards have been tried. Even compressed loads that have been stored can use a little movement or vibration even though the powder is packed. As an aside, I've never been a proponent of over cleaning brass no different than annealing is a necessity. It makes about as much sense as over cleaning a barrel so I've never been down those rabbit holes. But both are big business and I will never know the difference except I saw a lot of overbore cartridges all nice, shinny, and annealed on the line the other day. They seemed to be having all sorts of problems and they were all pulling out the X-Files trying to figure things out.

That will be something I do for now on. Because, I have seen how my H4350 and H1000 will clump coming out of the trickler

 

[CanSniper]

Coming from a technical/ mechanical back ground it goes completely and totally against my grain to assemble something that is not absolutely squeaky clean. Not saying I don't see the merit of not over cleaning, because it definitely carries some weight. I just couldn't do it. I wouldn't be able to sleep for days if I made ugly ammo.

The reason I started STM was, I always have lubed inside the neck of my brass before sizing in order to improve run out and increase consistency and prevent galling or scaring. Unless you are very gentle with your brass you need to run a expander of some sort inorder to straighten any bent necks.

My first step before going through the sizing die is decap only then a very short corn cob or walnut dry tumble. That way the carbon inside the neck is mostly still there for sizing. I still believe lube inside the neck is needed, along with outside the case.

Now here is my reason for STM. The lube has to be cleaned from the case. Either manually wiping or some sort of tumbling. In order to streamline my process, I have tried to eliminate as much of the "one case at a time" stuff as possible. I have even been experimenting with my Dillon 650 equiped with the case feeder for my precision stuff. But...what I found with dry media is the lube inside the neck collects just out of sight below the neck just at the top of the shoulder. Using dry media to remove the lube outside the case causes some nasty abrasive mess to accumulate just out of sight below the neck. (Don't believe me, check with a qtip.) Now this could be cleaned one at a time, but that ain't for me! STM cleans inside the case, and all that nasty is not going down my barrel. I have learned that despite my desire for absolutely glowing pretty brass it is best to only tumble long enough to remove the lube. 1hr is usually enough.

Never had a problem with cold weld sticking issue...But I always have used just a little tiny bit of imperial sizing wax wiped around the base of the bullet with my finger. Try not to get any on the boat tail to prevent contact with the powder. I started this process when I began chasing seating depth consistency. I also found that as stated above using lube resulted in bullets seating deeper with the same die setting as dry bullets.

 

[ddavis]

How many here are wet tumbling WITHOUT SS pins? Seems like the cases rubbing against each other would clean the outside without cleaning inside the neck. I know I've read of people doing that with decent results. Would be easy enough to try. I get the same problems with squeaky clean brass. Very difficult to pull the expander button through.

 

[FishDr]

I have been wet tumbling for 9 years, and my necks are never even close to spotless.

That must be some really dirty brass !!
LOL - that is just where my head was when I read the post.

 

[Snuby642]

So if I choose to crimp does that eliviate / minumise these problems?
Was leaving the wax on sized brass and dry tumbling with cob and polish.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

How many here are wet tumbling WITHOUT SS pins? Seems like the cases rubbing against each other would clean the outside without cleaning inside the neck. I know I've read of people doing that with decent results. Would be easy enough to try. I get the same problems with squeaky clean brass. Very difficult to pull the expander button through.

I've tried it several times. Same process, same soap, just no pins. It doesn't work. The inside of the drum just ends up covered in brass colored grease. The stainless pins are what scrubs everything clean. I still wet tumble pistol brass and range brass, but I have all but stopped wet tumbling my precision stuff.

An alternative that I have tried with some success is using ceramic media instead of SS pins. I use media that is too big to fit in the mouths or primer pockets. But that has issues as well. The ceramic media doesn't leave a nice shiny finish to the brass, and separating the cases from the media is harder. In the end it really doesn't get you much.

In the end, it is just better to wet tumble with SS when you really want the brass clean and just know that you will have to use some type of lubricant, wet or dry, for the next loading.