Starting to see some spotting scopes make a comeback at matches? Mainly spotters that have a reticle. Has anyone jumped back to a spotter instead of binos?
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Anyone go back to a spotter?
- Thread starter Mormegil87
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Used a spotter with a reticle and now use binos with a reticle and it’s much nicer to use the binos. I wouldn’t go back to a spotter.
If I didn't already have a a set of Swaro SLCs, I'd buy a pair of Bushnell Match Pros or the Apex Binos with reticle
I have gone to a set of Apex Summit Pro 12x50s with a reticle. I used a spotter in the past but its a pain with multiple target stages and large pans.
I have the Bushnells and like them a lot. They work great for matches and the reticle is set up good for looking at target sizes and corrections.
From the ones I attended last year seemed the dedicated scopes were the ones bought a while back and anything newer looking were binos. It's nice to be able to use both eyes.
People are getting better at having a plan for wind brackets and also what to do when they miss.
Knowing the width of the target in mils (or moa if that's your thing) is pretty important. For example, if you have a target that is .6 wide, and you miss barely off the downwind edge, you know you can just auto correct with .5 added in your next shot. Target is .6, so, half of that is .3. You missed off the edge, so that's another .1-.2, and you can add another .1 just to keep you on the upwind side of the plate on the next shot.
Where you can't do that on a target that's .4 wide. So you need to know the width to make a game plan prior to stage. As the less time you're thinking, the better. And you don't need to mess around with measuring the miss and figuring out what to add or not add to keep your bracket on the upwind side.
Binos are usually limited to 15x or less. So that's why you'll see spotters with reticles. You can zoom closer and get a better measurement.
And some just decide they'd rather only have one piece of glass, so they take the spotter. I personally will have multiple pieces of glass and use them according to need. I'll us a mk4 spotter to measure target. Then I'll either use Swaro BTX95 or Pure 12x for the actual spotting while people are shooting.
Knowing the width of the target in mils (or moa if that's your thing) is pretty important. For example, if you have a target that is .6 wide, and you miss barely off the downwind edge, you know you can just auto correct with .5 added in your next shot. Target is .6, so, half of that is .3. You missed off the edge, so that's another .1-.2, and you can add another .1 just to keep you on the upwind side of the plate on the next shot.
Where you can't do that on a target that's .4 wide. So you need to know the width to make a game plan prior to stage. As the less time you're thinking, the better. And you don't need to mess around with measuring the miss and figuring out what to add or not add to keep your bracket on the upwind side.
Binos are usually limited to 15x or less. So that's why you'll see spotters with reticles. You can zoom closer and get a better measurement.
And some just decide they'd rather only have one piece of glass, so they take the spotter. I personally will have multiple pieces of glass and use them according to need. I'll us a mk4 spotter to measure target. Then I'll either use Swaro BTX95 or Pure 12x for the actual spotting while people are shooting.
I use a MK4 spotter with TMR reticle on a rail with the lrf binos mounted side by side.
Binos are fixed 10x, offering a wide field of view and good overall picture of multiple targets.
Spotter might be at 20x, to suss out mirage and hopefully make better wind calls looking at dust / grass / splash etc.
Bino's are good but have some limitations.
Spotters are good but also have limitations.
Having both, side by side is a really solid, practical setup I find.
Binos are fixed 10x, offering a wide field of view and good overall picture of multiple targets.
Spotter might be at 20x, to suss out mirage and hopefully make better wind calls looking at dust / grass / splash etc.
Bino's are good but have some limitations.
Spotters are good but also have limitations.
Having both, side by side is a really solid, practical setup I find.
Having been down this rabbit whole a million times, I can tell you that you'll always be lacking a little. Especially if you only want to use one or the other, binos or spotter.
Either the reticle is garbage or the glass is, or something else. The minox spotter has a great reticle, but terrible glass (not the same as zp5 rifle scope). The vortex reticle is really nice and glass aint bad. But you are stuck with 22x fixed mag. Swaro and Hensoldt reticles are pretty horrible. And binos are limited to 15x and not many with a reticle. I know some are fans of stuff mentioned above, but I'm personally not going to use binos with glass less than a Swaro SLC.
Leupold Mk4 are decent glass and some decent reticles. But far from ideal when you're used to Swaro spotter glass and really good reticles like ZCO.
If somehow swaro could put an adjustable magnification along with an electronic reticle into the BTX....it would be the perfect optic.
Until something like that comes around, I've just made peace that I'm either going to have to use multiple items or know I'm limited when I don't use multiple items.
Either the reticle is garbage or the glass is, or something else. The minox spotter has a great reticle, but terrible glass (not the same as zp5 rifle scope). The vortex reticle is really nice and glass aint bad. But you are stuck with 22x fixed mag. Swaro and Hensoldt reticles are pretty horrible. And binos are limited to 15x and not many with a reticle. I know some are fans of stuff mentioned above, but I'm personally not going to use binos with glass less than a Swaro SLC.
Leupold Mk4 are decent glass and some decent reticles. But far from ideal when you're used to Swaro spotter glass and really good reticles like ZCO.
If somehow swaro could put an adjustable magnification along with an electronic reticle into the BTX....it would be the perfect optic.
Until something like that comes around, I've just made peace that I'm either going to have to use multiple items or know I'm limited when I don't use multiple items.
I've even gone as far as considering pairing my spare Mk5 with my SLC 15x to get the best of both worlds. Not sure I'm going to follow through on that thought.
I hate carrying too much shit so a spotter and binos is definitely out. The Bushnell 15x spotters with the reticle work fine. I can break down a target size with the reticle without a problem and figure a starting wind hold. 15x is more than enough to do that.
You'll stop using it after 5min getting frustrated with eye relief.
I'll wait to see if there is anything that surprises us at SHOT. I'm like @Rob01 I don't like to carry a lot. It's just hard to give up that SLC glass
I’ve used spotters but much prefer binos, esp 15x.
I have a pair of Sig 10Ks. I’m not going to deny that the 10K glass leaves you wanting more, but the LRF and how quick my dope pops up is why I got them and will likely keep using them. I shot a rimfire match today in the snow but was able to get good ranges out to 300. On one stage there was an unknown distance target and everybody on my squad asked to use my 10Ks. Just a deer silhouette plate on a hanger surrounded by 1 ft of fresh snow, no base visible, but we all got the same distance +/- 1 yd.
But spotting rimfire hits @ 300 yds is iffy with the 10Ks -unless they wiggle a lot when hit or the MD puts a hit indicator on the plate. For centerfire, I usually do OK with them out to 6-700 yds, but beyond that I sometimes struggle to spot a hit esp on a big heavy plate that doesn’t move much. So on those stages I swap my 10Ks for the Burris 15x’s.
Personally I would prefer to only pack 1 set of binos to a match, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do and the Burris weigh less than a spotter.
I have a pair of Sig 10Ks. I’m not going to deny that the 10K glass leaves you wanting more, but the LRF and how quick my dope pops up is why I got them and will likely keep using them. I shot a rimfire match today in the snow but was able to get good ranges out to 300. On one stage there was an unknown distance target and everybody on my squad asked to use my 10Ks. Just a deer silhouette plate on a hanger surrounded by 1 ft of fresh snow, no base visible, but we all got the same distance +/- 1 yd.
But spotting rimfire hits @ 300 yds is iffy with the 10Ks -unless they wiggle a lot when hit or the MD puts a hit indicator on the plate. For centerfire, I usually do OK with them out to 6-700 yds, but beyond that I sometimes struggle to spot a hit esp on a big heavy plate that doesn’t move much. So on those stages I swap my 10Ks for the Burris 15x’s.
Personally I would prefer to only pack 1 set of binos to a match, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do and the Burris weigh less than a spotter.
I take a Vortex Razor with the reticle eye piece to PRS matches. I also bring LRF Binos, too, but mostly do spotting and stage prep with the spotter. I've done it both ways, but some 12x or 15x binos with a reticle would be awesome, too.
The 22x spotter is nice if I know Bob is going to hold .6 mils of wind on the 1st target and he misses by .2 mils, I can measure that directly for consideration. Also good for accurate target widths for wind bracketing.
Cheap/shitty spotters suck. Some nice Swaros or the like are nice to have around. This Vortex is solid, but I don't think I'd go much cheaper.
The 22x spotter is nice if I know Bob is going to hold .6 mils of wind on the 1st target and he misses by .2 mils, I can measure that directly for consideration. Also good for accurate target widths for wind bracketing.
Cheap/shitty spotters suck. Some nice Swaros or the like are nice to have around. This Vortex is solid, but I don't think I'd go much cheaper.
We had high hopes for the Bushnell LMSS2 spotter, being so small and straight through. Useful magnification range (8-40x60mm) but the glass on the demo unit we had was very dark and wasn't easy to get a nice crisp focus on anything with any type of mirage going on. Would like to come back and have another look at this, purely for the size and shape but have some big concerns for that price range.
Vortex Razor HD 27-60x85mm was clear, bright and mirage was effortless to work through, being able to adjust focus through different layers. It was an excellent spotter but the fixed 22x was either too much or not enough and the thing is huge, and 'heavy'. If this was a FFP optic, that would be a good option.
Leupold MK4 glass is OK, the TMR reticle is OK, 12-40x60mm is useful. Overall it's a good piece of gear. I think though it's a good compromise.
As for binos I have used Vortex Fury, Fury 5000, Fury 5000AB and am now on the Sig Kilo 10k'. The Vortex binos were all quite nice for the price, the AB model was obviously pick of the bunch but didn't like how slow the data showed up, flicking back and forth. Sig Kilo 10k' throw up all the information instantly and have a fairly capable laser however the lenses definitely do have the blue tinge which has been a bit interesting to adjust to. Leica have just released the new binos with AB, that might be something to suss out but they're $$$ here.
Keen also to suss out the 15x with reticle, haven't had a chance to look at those here.
Being that PRS matches are generally run not far from the car, carrying bulk gear is never an issue in Australia at the ranges here so you can really bring a whole heap of unnecessary crap.
Vortex Razor HD 27-60x85mm was clear, bright and mirage was effortless to work through, being able to adjust focus through different layers. It was an excellent spotter but the fixed 22x was either too much or not enough and the thing is huge, and 'heavy'. If this was a FFP optic, that would be a good option.
Leupold MK4 glass is OK, the TMR reticle is OK, 12-40x60mm is useful. Overall it's a good piece of gear. I think though it's a good compromise.
As for binos I have used Vortex Fury, Fury 5000, Fury 5000AB and am now on the Sig Kilo 10k'. The Vortex binos were all quite nice for the price, the AB model was obviously pick of the bunch but didn't like how slow the data showed up, flicking back and forth. Sig Kilo 10k' throw up all the information instantly and have a fairly capable laser however the lenses definitely do have the blue tinge which has been a bit interesting to adjust to. Leica have just released the new binos with AB, that might be something to suss out but they're $$$ here.
Keen also to suss out the 15x with reticle, haven't had a chance to look at those here.
Being that PRS matches are generally run not far from the car, carrying bulk gear is never an issue in Australia at the ranges here so you can really bring a whole heap of unnecessary crap.
I pray Swarovski will have an adjustable BTX model with a decent reticle! Maybe one day they can put it all together
If I'm shooting the match, binos.
If I'm ROing a stage all day then I use a spotter, but also have the binos up on my tripod too.
If I'm ROing a stage all day then I use a spotter, but also have the binos up on my tripod too.
Having a Vortex Razor Spotter, it is beyond stupid to me that they only have a reticle on a fixed lens. I have it, it's very usefull, but not sure why they couldn't just do it right the first time.
I'd love to see someone that can disassemble a bino and etch the reticle.
Have you heard of the new Athlon Midas G2 PRO 12x50 UHD Reticle Binocular
ATBR MIL reticle is designed to assist shooters and spotters in providing shooting corrections as well as the ability to perform milliradian ranging of targets. The .2 mil open-center crosshair provides a fine focal point to center your target. The hashmarks are spaced in .2 mil increments out to 5 mils to provide accurate measurements and correction values.
Nice! Glad to see midrange optics with reticles. I'm spoiled with my Leica's though as far as glass quality.
The Bushnell is also in that midrange price too.
15x56 Spotting Binoculars with Reticle - Match Pro ED | Bushnell
Binoculars, reticle, spotting scope, long-range spotting
www.bushnell.com
I really like my NL Pure 12x. Being able to quickly switch to targets while spotting is awesome and the glass is amazing.
If I could find a good deal on a Spotter 45 with reticle I would sell it in a heartbeat. Some of the best shooters in the world run them and we have talked about the pros and cons of them. I think the Pros outweigh the cons which seems to be true since they are winning trophies at the finale.
Like Rio said, being able to get precise milling of target helps you make a much better plan for wind and being able to measure peoples misses/hits while shooting is feedback that will help you revise your plan to increase success. The stuff you can see with a Spotter 45/60 you just wont get with other optics, with the exception of a huge BTX which doesnt have a reticle. Even the swaro STR is subpar glass compared to rest of lineup and their reticle kinda sucks.
One of the dudes in PNW carries a 735 ATACR in his bag so he can mil targets before he shoots. Works well for him.
If I could find a good deal on a Spotter 45 with reticle I would sell it in a heartbeat. Some of the best shooters in the world run them and we have talked about the pros and cons of them. I think the Pros outweigh the cons which seems to be true since they are winning trophies at the finale.
Like Rio said, being able to get precise milling of target helps you make a much better plan for wind and being able to measure peoples misses/hits while shooting is feedback that will help you revise your plan to increase success. The stuff you can see with a Spotter 45/60 you just wont get with other optics, with the exception of a huge BTX which doesnt have a reticle. Even the swaro STR is subpar glass compared to rest of lineup and their reticle kinda sucks.
One of the dudes in PNW carries a 735 ATACR in his bag so he can mil targets before he shoots. Works well for him.
I never thought of milling prior, but I’ve been only shooting team matches for the last 3-4 years, but my local club is starting a PRs series, so I’ll have to start looking into that.
Now if someone will make some 12 or 15x binos with LF, swaro glass and bushnell price
Now if someone will make some 12 or 15x binos with LF, swaro glass and bushnell price
Why don’t you just hire a personal squire and stop being poor?
I never thought of milling prior, but I’ve been only shooting team matches for the last 3-4 years, but my local club is starting a PRs series, so I’ll have to start looking into that.
Now if someone will make some 12 or 15x binos with LF, swaro glass and bushnell price
Knowing the width of your target allows you to employ a better wind strategy. The strategy itself is far, far better than being able to be a wind calling savant.
Here's an example of a strategy. It's not the only way, just one way.
Here’s what you really need to know about wind at a match
Been in a wind kick lately. Here’s what you really need to know about wind when at a match. And it’s not how to read wind down to 1-2mph. The important thing is how to only miss once on a stage. This is assuming your fundamentals are sound and you can spot your shots. As well as assuming you...
www.snipershide.com
I’d like to look thru these soon!The Bushnell is also in that midrange price too.
15x56 Spotting Binoculars with Reticle - Match Pro ED | Bushnell
Binoculars, reticle, spotting scope, long-range spotting
Yeah glass is +\- leupold spotter glass. But reticle is great. And glass is good enough for most match use.
Got mine for less than 1400 from some Europe dealer. Def not worth the retail is price
Here
Ended up sticking with Swaro binos. I'd rather have the higher end glass than compromise to get a reticle.
To the OP, I am experimenting with it, I've been using a 12x50 Swaro and like it immensely... but wanting a reticle has lead me down this path. I tried using a spare rifle scope but with the 3ish inch Eye Relief that was a mess tring to spot targets and keep my head in position so I grabbed the Athlon below.
athlonoptics.com
and it is very nice, but I am not sure I want to go back to spotting with just a spotter and haven't found a mounting solution where I can run bot bino and spotter at the same time, nor am I thrilled to add all that extra weight to my loadout. So... I also grabbed a Bushnell Match Pro bino with the reticle and will be testing that out at the Frostbite match this coming weekend... We shall see how it goes.
Cronus G2 UHD 7-42x60 - Athlon Optics
You’ll catch every detail with Athlon’s latest spotting scope. Featuring a smooth single focus wheel, finely geared to facilitate hitting the sharpest focus.
athlonoptics.com
and it is very nice, but I am not sure I want to go back to spotting with just a spotter and haven't found a mounting solution where I can run bot bino and spotter at the same time, nor am I thrilled to add all that extra weight to my loadout. So... I also grabbed a Bushnell Match Pro bino with the reticle and will be testing that out at the Frostbite match this coming weekend... We shall see how it goes.
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You should like it. Easy to spot with and reticle is good for pre stage planning. I like the 15x as I am usually close to that when shooting a stage so gives me an idea of what it will look like through my scope as well.
I personally only used a spotting scope at one 2 day match this year and it was a Kowa Prominar TSN 88A that I was testing for the Air Force Rifle team. While I really was testing it as a service rifle spotter I did find that it saw faint early morning mirage A LOT sooner than binos when back focused. It was easier to see mirage changes too without the mirage drowning everything out even when focused.
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