Anyone know why I'm getting hangfires with H4350 in 6.5 Creed by chance?

[Basic user]

Switched from using Varget to H4350 for an experiment and now I'm getting hangfires in two different Rem700's with two different primers and bullets. Load 1 was virgin Alpha brass, 140 Bergers, w/ cci mag srp's, and load 2 was fire formed Alpha brass w/ 150 SMK's, and cci standard SRP's.
The hangfires on the 140 bergers were the starting load in the book of 38.1gr, and I think one other of the charge weights. On the 150SMK's they were at kind of the middle at 34.9 grains. Temps were about 68 degrees.

Anyone have this problem? I was attempting to see maybe it was some of the usual suspects, but the guns, primers, and bullets were different. The only thing that was the same was the brass and powder.

 

[st1650]

It’s not the powder.
Most likely excessive headspace or weak firing pin spring or drag.

 

[Triple D]

Low charge weights.

I’ve never started a load dev. below 40gr with 140’s. I don’t think I’ve been below 40grs with the 150’s either.

With low charges, I think the powder shifts from being next to the primer when chambered, thus changing the ignition rate.

In essence, you were trying to ignite air…not powder.

 

[918v]

I would start higher but also check the trigger to make sure the fp isn’t dragging.

 

[Basic user]

It’s not the powder.
Most likely excessive headspace or weak firing pin spring or drag.

Understood. I can guarantee it's not the headspace as I keep that pretty tight and measure every time. The insides of my bolts are clean, my pins polished, and I use really light machine oil on the pin and spring. It can't be that, as I have a little over a hundred rounds on these rifles and no hangfires. I know it's not spring drag as I can hear the pin hit the primer, then hear the round fire afterwards. There's definitely no delay from the trigger pull to the pin falling.

 

[Basic user]

Low charge weights.

I’ve never started a load dev. below 40gr with 140’s. I don’t think I’ve been below 40grs with the 150’s either.

With low charges, I think the powder shifts from being next to the primer when chambered, thus changing the ignition rate.

In essence, you were trying to ignite air…not powder.

I do what everyone on here always says to do and start low and work up from the manuals. In the last two load ladder tests, which total about 55 rounds, not a charge weight with varget went over 34.5 grains. Not a single hang fire. This is why I'm so confused...

 

[AllenOne1]

Low charge weights on both bullets would be my guess. I would jump the 140 load about 1.5 grains and then move up from there. The 150 I would raise about 4 grains and work up from there. You may not be getting enough case fill to get consistent ignition.

Did you check velocity on any of these rounds?

 

[Basic user]

No velocity yet. Though I do love the 34.2gr of Varget as it gave me a .14" shot group which I love.

 

[diggler1833]

If everything worked with Varget, but not H4350 (and you are as strict in your process as you say)...your problem is narrowed down to powder as it is apparently the only variable.

Now you can experiment with charge weights to see if getting more case fill rectifies that problem. Hodgdon's starting load for your 150 SMK combo is 37.2...so 2.3 grains more than you're doing. SRP have their advantages in cases as large as the Creedmoor family, but lesser fills and extreme cold can cause issues with hangfires.

 

[Basic user]

Gotcha. What confuses me is during that load ladder with the 150s, the lighter charge weights didn't hang fire. Was that dumb luck in your opinion?

 

[taliv]

Describe explicitly what you mean by hang fire.

Do you feel the firing pin go forward and the gun jumps just like dry firing? And then some time elapses, up to a minute? And then the gun goes boom?

 

[918v]

Understood. I can guarantee it's not the headspace as I keep that pretty tight and measure every time. The insides of my bolts are clean, my pins polished, and I use really light machine oil on the pin and spring. It can't be that, as I have a little over a hundred rounds on these rifles and no hangfires. I know it's not spring drag as I can hear the pin hit the primer, then hear the round fire afterwards. There's definitely no delay from the trigger pull to the pin falling.

The spring doesn’t drag. The back of the fp drags on the trigger sear. You need to check if you have clearance between those two parts.

 

[Basic user]

Describe explicitly what you mean by hang fire.

Do you feel the firing pin go forward and the gun jumps just like dry firing? And then some time elapses, up to a minute? And then the gun goes boom?

I do. I pull the trigger, hear the pin fall and smack the primer, and right after that I feel the gun recoil/hear the report of the cartridge going off. There's definitely a delay.

 

[Basic user]

The spring doesn’t drag. The back of the fp drags on the trigger sear. You need to check if you have clearance between those two parts.

If I did have some of this drag, is that an intermittent problem, or an every single time type of problem? During this session I shot 69 rounds, and I think 7 rounds did it. Five of the lowest powder charge, and 2 randoms that I forgot to record.

 

[high right]

If your firing pin fall is sufficient, spring is good, no drag, primers are seated,, it's Low case volume. Needs to be 80% or better. Reloder 26 did this to me and my buddies guns. Different lots of powder, different actions, different bullets. I tried EVERY primer made. Case volume was low. Switched to H-1000 and never had another.

 

[johnnyvw]

If everything worked with Varget, but not H4350 (and you are as strict in your process as you say)...your problem is narrowed down to powder as it is apparently the only variable.

Now you can experiment with charge weights to see if getting more case fill rectifies that problem. Hodgdon's starting load for your 150 SMK combo is 37.2...so 2.3 grains more than you're doing. SRP have their advantages in cases as large as the Creedmoor family, but lesser fills and extreme cold can cause issues with hangfires.

or maybe just bad powder?

 

[CK1.0]

I do. I pull the trigger, hear the pin fall and smack the primer, and right after that I feel the gun recoil/hear the report of the cartridge going off. There's definitely a delay.

It's not your charge weight, what you're describing sounds like primer seating issues. Alpha SRP case primer-pockets are probably the toughest on the planet (but it's also a good thing, since that's why the pockets last so long). Hand-priming I'd guess?

You can either find a better way to prime cases, or try a fresher/stronger firing pin spring for some extra smack to try and make up for it.

 

[diggler1833]

or maybe just bad powder?

Could be.

 

[Basic user]

It's not your charge weight, what you're describing sounds like primer seating issues. Alpha SRP case primer-pockets are probably the toughest on the planet (but it's also a good thing, since that's why the pockets last so long). Hand-priming I'd guess?

You can either find a better way to prime cases, or try a fresher/stronger firing pin spring for some extra smack to try and make up for it.

I do seat with a frankford arsenal hand primer. That would cause intermittent hang fires? Are their holes big enough? Are they doing the ole' Lapua thing with the extra small holes?

 

[918v]

If I did have some of this drag, is that an intermittent problem, or an every single time type of problem? During this session I shot 69 rounds, and I think 7 rounds did it. Five of the lowest powder charge, and 2 randoms that I forgot to record.

It could be intermittent. What trigger do you have on it? How is it adjusted?

 

[CK1.0]

I do seat with a frankford arsenal hand primer. That would cause intermittent hang fires? Are their holes big enough? Are they doing the ole' Lapua thing with the extra small holes?

I don't think it's the size of the holes, just that they're so stiff that it can make it hard to really seat the anvil down in there on every single one.

The same thing was happening to me and I can close a Captains Of Crush #2 (which is no f'ing joke, most can't close a COC trainer or a #1, my wrist/hand strength is much better than most) and I still had to switch from my Frankford Arsenal hand primer to a PCPS to completely cure it. With any other type of brass or with LRPs I never have had any issues.

Same exact thing you described... I'd hear the firing pin drop, then a millisecond later, bang!

I can recommend this, the new priming hotness: https://www.uglyreloadingusa.com/product/precision-primer-seater-patent-pending/

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I went through this with 6 creed, SRP, and RL16. I was shooting in cold weather, but even increasing charge weight, swapping sr primers, and trying a bunch of different primer crush did not alleviate the hangfire. I swapped powders and never had another issue.

Either swap powders or cases to something with a LRP.

 

[Basic user]

It could be intermittent. What trigger do you have on it? How is it adjusted?

I dropped the single stage triggertech special in there, and set the pull to about 1.75lbs? No other adjustments were made. The firing pins and springs are factory.

 

[Basic user]

So I'm seeing that this can be narrowed to more likely improper primer seating and/or case fill. So the obvious first option is to of course change one thing at a time and test, which would be the case fill, then, if that batch doesn't change anything, test the primer seating .
As for that, before I buy anything new, should I be cleaning up these pockets to allow the primers to seat a little better? I have the tool that goes on the frankford arsenal prep station. https://www.frankfordarsenal.com/sa...HeJWg2vRiJ_FmlItuBbGnuyxoCxsQQAvD_BwE&start=1

Is it that, or is it my seating depth adjustment thingy on the hand primer? When I prime these things, it's not hard at all like military brass or say S&B shit is. It's pretty nice actually.

 

[CK1.0]

So I'm seeing that this can be narrowed to more likely improper primer seating and/or case fill. So the obvious first option is to of course change one thing at a time and test, which would be the case fill, then, if that batch doesn't change anything, test the primer seating .
As for that, before I buy anything new, should I be cleaning up these pockets to allow the primers to seat a little better? I have the tool that goes on the frankford arsenal prep station. https://www.frankfordarsenal.com/sa...HeJWg2vRiJ_FmlItuBbGnuyxoCxsQQAvD_BwE&start=1

Is it that, or is it my seating depth adjustment thingy on the hand primer? When I prime these things, it's not hard at all like military brass or say S&B shit is. It's pretty nice actually.

You could try your seat adjustment on your hand primer first (free, easy) but if there still isn't enough leverage to get the primers bottomed out, then the anvils inside the primers are still going to be hit or miss (leading to intermittent ignition issues). For $23 you could try this: https://www.amazon.com/LEE-PRECISION-LP90106-Ram-Prime/dp/B00162UGQE and completely rule out primer seating.

That's one variable.

Next, I'd look at firing pin issues?

Next?

If you try to experiment with too many things: primers, firing pin, and powder, at once, you'll be chasing your tail. Start with what is free/cheap and easiest first. Many of the thousands of Creedmoor rounds I've shot have sounded like salt shakers (38-39 grains H4350) and I've never had an issue, so I'd try powder last. YMMV.

 

[918v]

I dropped the single stage triggertech special in there, and set the pull to about 1.75lbs? No other adjustments were made. The firing pins and springs are factory.

If you still have the factory trigger, put it back in and that will eliminate that possibility. If it’s still misfiring then move on to primer seating. H4350 doesn’t hang fire with small primers in June.

 

[Triple D]

While it could be many of the other options in this thread, I’d strongly suggest upping the powder charge with h4350 and SRP.

I think Johnnys Reloading bench had a similar issue. Small primers that aren’t magnum don’t always play nice with a low case fill. Even magnum primers can struggle with a low charge.

I’ve shot thousands of 6.5creed, 6creed and 22creed using SRP and H4350. It’s not the powder. I’m using cci 450 primers and a moderate to full case fill. Zero issues.

Just FyI, the Hornady 140 load was 41.5gr H4350 when it first came out.

 

[Haney]

I do seat with a frankford arsenal hand primer. That would cause intermittent hang fires? Are their holes big enough? Are they doing the ole' Lapua thing with the extra small holes?

Do you have the adjustment backed out all the way ? If not try that and see if you can feel one bottom out and crush .

 

[Ledzep]

Fed 205's have a little more pop than the CCI's IME, that might help. Make sure there's no moisture/water in the cases (wet tumbling?).

Might be worth trying large primer brass, too, if that remotely fits your program.

 

[Basic user]

You could try your seat adjustment on your hand primer first (free, easy) but if there still isn't enough leverage to get the primers bottomed out, then the anvils inside the primers are still going to be hit or miss (leading to intermittent ignition issues). For $23 you could try this: https://www.amazon.com/LEE-PRECISION-LP90106-Ram-Prime/dp/B00162UGQE and completely rule out primer seating.

That's one variable.

Next, I'd look at firing pin issues?

Next?

If you try to experiment with too many things: primers, firing pin, and powder, at once, you'll be chasing your tail. Start with what is free/cheap and easiest first. Many of the thousands of Creedmoor rounds I've shot have sounded like salt shakers (38-39 grains H4350) and I've never had an issue, so I'd try powder last. YMMV.

Will do

 

[CK1.0]

Hopefully, it's just the same thing that was getting me... that Alpha SRP brass is no joke, I'm on a batch that has 12 firings/cycles on it and its pockets still put brand-new Hornady brass to shame.

That, and Hodgdon lists book 6.5CM/140 loads using as little as 32gn of Varget, 36gn of H4350, and book loads typically aren't near the edge of reliability IME...

 

[clcustom1911]

Switched from using Varget to H4350 for an experiment and now I'm getting hangfires in two different Rem700's with two different primers and bullets. Load 1 was virgin Alpha brass, 140 Bergers, w/ cci mag srp's, and load 2 was fire formed Alpha brass w/ 150 SMK's, and cci standard SRP's.
The hangfires on the 140 bergers were the starting load in the book of 38.1gr, and I think one other of the charge weights. On the 150SMK's they were at kind of the middle at 34.9 grains. Temps were about 68 degrees.

Anyone have this problem? I was attempting to see maybe it was some of the usual suspects, but the guns, primers, and bullets were different. The only thing that was the same was the brass and powder.

With 140's you should be at 40gr H4350 starting. You'll have an accuracy node thing at about 40.2-40.7, another at 41.2-41.7. and a tippy-top node at 42.2-42.7.... -ish.

With a 24" barrel those 3 nodes should be +/-2625, +/-2725, and +/-2825 with respectively. 6.5 creed is one of the most "CYA Loading Data from manufacturers" rounds because there's people like me who run 47gr Reloder26 and get 2920 in 102⁰ heat with no issues on 142 Matchkings (sub MOA performance too )

My personal competition/pet load is 41.5 H4350 with a 139-144gr bullet in just about every 6.5CR casing. Gives me 2735 with good statistics and amazing accuracy in my factory chamber when I load to factory lengths (2.81" OAL)

 

[Basic user]

Ok, reloaded that same batch of brass that had hangfires, with all the same components, though this time I ran the primer pockets through the frankford arsenal prep station (a sort of uniformer) and made sure I squeezed the shit out of the hand primer tool (without smashing the shit out of the primer cups, because I can if I squeeze too hard) and not a single hang fire this time around.

You guys called it, it was most likely the primer seating operation. What still confuses me, is that I had a few loadings on this brass with varget, and that never happened. Ah well, at least I think I have it narrowed down though.

 

[tinker]

Hopefully, it's just the same thing that was getting me... that Alpha SRP brass is no joke, I'm on a batch that has 12 firings/cycles on it and its pockets still put brand-new Hornady brass to shame.

That, and Hodgdon lists book 6.5CM/140 loads using as little as 32gn of Varget, 36gn of H4350, and book loads typically aren't near the edge of reliability IME...

I was shocked by alpha primer pockets when I first loaded them. took a few boxes to work to prime at my desk with rcbs handprimer while on calls and the handprimer started making popping sounds enough to make the primers jump and the lid come loose enough to have some primers flip over now and then. I am only through about 5 or six boxes of them so still on first loading. I hope eventually they get a little easier to seat.

 

[Bbracken667]

Switched from using Varget to H4350 for an experiment and now I'm getting hangfires in two different Rem700's with two different primers and bullets. Load 1 was virgin Alpha brass, 140 Bergers, w/ cci mag srp's, and load 2 was fire formed Alpha brass w/ 150 SMK's, and cci standard SRP's.
The hangfires on the 140 bergers were the starting load in the book of 38.1gr, and I think one other of the charge weights. On the 150SMK's they were at kind of the middle at 34.9 grains. Temps were about 68 degrees.

Anyone have this problem? I was attempting to see maybe it was some of the usual suspects, but the guns, primers, and bullets were different. The only thing that was the same was the brass and powder.

Two things: first is I always start my charges about midway between min and max charge. If you are loading long and have lots of extra space in the cartridge you might try tipping the rifle back (barrel up) before firing.
Second could be, but less likely, primer seating too deep and the firing pin isn’t making good contact. Are you seeing well defined strike marks by the pin on the primer?

 

[Basic user]

Two things: first is I always start my charges about midway between min and max charge. If you are loading long and have lots of extra space in the cartridge you might try tipping the rifle back (barrel up) before firing.
Second could be, but less likely, primer seating too deep and the firing pin isn’t making good contact. Are you seeing well defined strike marks by the pin on the primer?

I was thinking of doing that next time actually lol (tipping the rifle each time) And negative on the primer strikes; I should have checked that! I will certainly mark each time it happens directly on the brass in the future.

 

[Hawk in WY]

It’s the trigger.

Well known problem from two years ago.

Call Trigger Tech and they will send a replacement as soon as you ship yours to them.

 

[Basic user]

It’s the trigger.

Well known problem from two years ago.

Call Trigger Tech and they will send a replacement as soon as you ship yours to them.

You saying it's drag?

 

[Hawk in WY]

You saying it's drag?

I’m saying it’s a well known problem with a few triggers which came to light around two years ago. Fewer reports more recently.

 

[Baron23]

You saying it's drag?

Perhaps I missed it, but some pics of primers in cases than hang fired would probably be helpful to see if you trigger/firing pin were involved in the problem...no?

 

[Basic user]

Perhaps I missed it, but some pics of primers in cases than hang fired would probably be helpful to see if you trigger/firing pin were involved in the problem...no?

Totally, and I didn't even think to do that. Was totally not thinking that day.