Suppressors Appendix/Schedule "A" question

[Sowastrong Industries]

I'll try to lay this out clearly. I have a can arriving on form 3 to my local dealer today and intend to help them help me do an EForms filing with my trust.

i filed an EForms Form 1 the other day and it shows pending.

When I go to efile the can the schedule A will show the sbr info and the can correct? And so on as I add NFA items right?

 

[Sgposin]

I believe you only list items that are in you possession (stamp in hand).

 

[HawkDriver]

I listed my can on schedule A when I sent my paper form 4 in. It came back just fine.

 

[DarinR]

I have seen form 4's to trusts come back for correction when the Schedule A was not sent in updated with the class 3 item in question included.

Darin

 

[Sowastrong Industries]

I listed my can on schedule A when I sent my paper form 4 in. It came back just fine.

I believe that is the route to go as well. Even listing pending items was my impression of what's required as well.

 

[Eben]

If the Schedule A is equivalent to the Assignment page of my particular trust, the intent of this type of page is to only list the item being transferred, it is not to be used to also list the items that have already been assigned to the trust in prior transfers.

 

[Sowastrong Industries]

That makes more sense yet. Got a call in to the lawyer regarding this as well.

"If the Schedule A is equivalent to the Assignment page of my particular trust, the intent of this type of page is to only list the item being transferred, it is not to be used to also list the items that have already been assigned to the trust in prior transfers"

 

[rancilio]

You will likely get quite a few "this is the way I did it and it worked/didn't work..." Different examiners, even the same examiner, will approve or return forms often seemingly without regard to a set of standards or repeatability.

So, just my experiences, I have attempted several different routes on a schedule A submitted with a trust for a Form 4 and all have been approved the first time in... on one "one spotting scope, model xxxx, sn. xxxx", on another I listed two silencers previously approved, and on another "one dollar".

 

[normbal]

I listed my can on schedule A when I sent my paper form 4 in. It came back just fine.

Ditto. The Schedule A should list the CURRENT NFA item for which you are submitting your Form 4.

 

[Bonjourjr]

I never put anything on mine and I don't get correction letters. It has worked for numerous transfers so far. But I haven't submitted a recent application in in about 6 months so things might have changed. I have heard all sorts of stuff like assign a dollar bill to the trust or put a previously approved NFA item on it. I send it in blank. I mean if I have to send a trust in every time I want to transfer a new item then. They way I look at it, I am a class 3 virgin to the BATFE and it is my first transfer every time.

 

[66427vette]

Your dealer owns it until it is approved not the trust. Just had 1 come back because customer went rogue and added items not approved yet.

 

[TexasGunTrustLawyer]

No. The schedule a should not lust anything other than the initial asset. I.e. $10.00.


There is no need to send in a current schedule A.

 

[TexasGunTrustLawyer]

Again, there is no need to send in an updated schedule A.

My clients just scan once with the original $10.00 and resend it each time

No problem.

 

[Eben]

Again, there is no need to send in an updated schedule A.

My clients just scan once with the original $10.00 and resend it each time

No problem.

What is the significance of just listing $10 every time, shouldn't the information you are listing have reference(s) to what you are applying for a transfer for?
My Assignment page has columns for Make, Model, and Serial Number.

 

[dogman]

I've done 14 of them with just the initial $10 on the shed A.

 

[Charger442]

i do the initial $5 i put in the validate the trust in TX, and i also do an Adendum to Schedule A each time i submit which shows all the items that the trust owns. I do not place the pending item on that list because i dont own it yet at that point. i have never been asked to add it either and have not had a problem with 6 submittals.

 

[Eben]

Are we talking about two different things here?

1. The first item transferred using my trust had an additional page that stated that I paid x$ for the suppressor from my own funds.
This is because the trust didn't exist at the time.
Subsequent transfers didn't have this page because it wasn't needed, as from the point the trust was created funds were assumed to have come from the trust.
People have speculated that one would want to establish a bank account in the trust's name to pay for NFA items, but this is not required.

2. An Assignment page is not to be used to list what you have in the trust, as there is no requirement to disclose what you already have.
It's intent is only to show what you are adding to the trust.
If others have been successful just listing a dollar amount, or some other non specific information, I wouldn't be confident that it would continue that way without being rejected.

 

[Charger442]

Are we talking about two different things here?

1. The first item transferred using my trust had an additional page that stated that I paid x$ for the suppressor from my own funds.
This is because the trust didn't exist at the time.
Subsequent transfers didn't have this page because it wasn't needed, as from the point the trust was created funds were assumed to have come from the trust.
People have speculated that one would want to establish a bank account in the trust's name to pay for NFA items, but this is not required.

2. An Assignment page is not to be used to list what you have in the trust, as there is no requirement to disclose what you already have.
It's intent is only to show what you are adding to the trust.
If others have been successful just listing a dollar amount, or some other non specific information, I wouldn't be confident that it would continue that way without being rejected.

if you didnt list somewhere what the trust owned, how would you or anyone else know? How it determined that its legally owned by the trust?

 

[Eben]

if you didnt list somewhere what the trust owned, how would you or anyone else know? How it determined that its legally owned by the trust?

Your approved Form 4 has the name of the trust listed as the owner of the item.

 

[Charger442]

Your approved Form 4 has the name of the trust listed as the owner of the item.

Trusts can own more things than just Form1/4 items.

The trust needs to have items assigned to it or conveyed to it. How else would I be able to say that my suppressors and my Taylor guitar, and other non NFA guns should be owned by my trust and be conveyed to the benefactors of the trust?

 

[Eben]

Trusts can own more things than just Form1/4 items.

The trust needs to have items assigned to it or conveyed to it. How else would I be able to say that my suppressors and my Taylor guitar, and other non NFA guns should be owned by my trust and be conveyed to the benefactors of the trust?

That's what the Assignment page is for.
Each time you add something to the trust, like sending in the Form 4 and a copy of the trust to the BATFE, you also send a copy of a witnessed or notarized Assignment page listing the item.
You end up with a folder of individual Assignment pages of the items that you've added over the years.
Adding a guitar would probably just involve completing the Assignment page and adding it to your folder.

 

[Charger442]

ill follow my lawyers advice and continue with my method... but....

But tell me this much, how can you assign a suppressor to a trust when you don't legally own it? That is what you are doing when you list it as an assignment to your trust. Its still property of the Dealer, on his Form 3, until the Form 4 is approved.


i know this is a long shot, but what happens if your Form 4 is denied? doesnt happen much with paper filings but the e-file doesnt go into error status, it just gets rejected. So you have listed an item that you dont legally own, as owned by your trust, and now you arent even in the process of the Form 4.

Listing the item as an asset of the trust before the Form 4 or Form 1 is approved by the ATF does not make sense to me.

 

[Eben]

ill follow my lawyers advice and continue with my method... but....

But tell me this much, how can you assign a suppressor to a trust when you don't legally own it? That is what you are doing when you list it as an assignment to your trust. Its still property of the Dealer, on his Form 3, until the Form 4 is approved.


i know this is a long shot, but what happens if your Form 4 is denied? doesnt happen much with paper filings but the e-file doesnt go into error status, it just gets rejected. So you have listed an item that you dont legally own, as owned by your trust, and now you arent even in the process of the Form 4.

Listing the item as an asset of the trust before the Form 4 or Form 1 is approved by the ATF does not make sense to me.

There is no requirement to send a list of trust items to the BATFE.
So that only leaves only one purpose for an Assignment page, and that's to list the specific item you are *assigning* as part of the Form 4 process.
There is no law against possessing an Assignment page for an item that is in the process of being transferred to you.
If the transfer doesn't go through for some reason, throw the assignment page away.

A trust that uses a Schedule A is different from a trust that uses Assignment pages, in that the former creates a de facto registry of the firearms you own, while the latter gives you more privacy and flexibility.
Here is an explanation from the lawyer that did my trust;
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2011/06/schedule-a-or-assignment-sheet.html#more

 

[Charger442]

So that only leaves only one purpose for an Assignment page, and that's to list the specific item you are *assigning* as part of the Form 4 process.
.

if this is a "requirement" then its not uniform. two different examiners over the last two years haven't asked to see the pending item listed, and that includes two Form 4's approved last week on a Trust.


i have also been asked to submit a list of what the trust owns in order to get the stamp approved. there are others who also have.

YMMV.

like i said before, my lawyers advice and direction has been sound on this and that's what I will personally adhere to. Obviously, everyone seems to follow their own protocol.

 

[Eben]

if this is a "requirement" then its not uniform. two different examiners over the last two years haven't asked to see the pending item listed, and that includes two Form 4's approved last week on a Trust.


i have also been asked to submit a list of what the trust owns in order to get the stamp approved. there are others who also have.

YMMV.

like i said before, my lawyers advice and direction has been sound on this and that's what I will personally adhere to. Obviously, everyone seems to follow their own protocol.

I updated my last post with information regarding a trust that uses a Schedule A, compared to one that uses Assignment pages.

 

[TexasGunTrustLawyer]

And there is no requirement in Texas that the schedule A list the property of the trust.

There isn't even a requirement fir a schedule A.

Send in the schedule A with only the original 10.00.

Or don't. It's your choice.