Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

[clodhopper]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Another issue with the AR .22 long rifle conversion kit,
Bullets for most 22 cal centerfires are .224. Bullets for 22 LR are .221-.222. I my mind that is pretty important. Under size bulets are just asking for barrel leading problems, gas blow by with bullet cutting all of which are not good for accuracy.
There are plenty of good solid .22 rifles out there cheaper than a conversion kit, or half the price of a good dedicated upper.

 

[retrieverman]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Thanks for the replies. I was just curious. I actually just sold one of my AR's and included the 22 conversion in the deal.

I haven't shot my Ruger 10/22 in YEARS, and the last time I did, I played heck getting the rotary magazines to function properly.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

That rotary mag just needs cleaned and maybe wound tighter.
I usually make it part of any appleseed to take one apart and show how.
There are instructions somewhwere on the web, but I never read the instructions untill to late.
Also on the appleseed site there are many comments and links to make a balky 10-22 function.

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clodhopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That rotary mag just needs cleaned and maybe wound tighter.
I usually make it part of any appleseed to take one apart and show how.
There are instructions somewhwere on the web, but I never read the instructions untill to late.
Also on the appleseed site there are many comments and links to make a balky 10-22 function. </div></div>

And by the time you have checked them all, you could buy a new Marlin 795 for the money, and have become an expert with it for the time invested in making the 10/22 work!

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Usagi</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clodhopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That rotary mag just needs cleaned and maybe wound tighter.
I usually make it part of any appleseed to take one apart and show how.
There are instructions somewhwere on the web, but I never read the instructions untill to late.
Also on the appleseed site there are many comments and links to make a balky 10-22 function. </div></div>

And by the time you have checked them all, you could buy a new Marlin 795 for the money, and have become an expert with it for the time invested in making the 10/22 work!

</div></div>
See I never read the instructions and have 4 fine 10-22s shoved up my a**!

 

[ROGER4314]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Bonnie shot a Marlin .22 bolt action that she has fired in many matches and she shot the scores fine. I had a match 10-22 that shoots bugholes at 50 yards. The rifles were not the problem!

Time was a terrible issue for us because when we broke from the huddle meetings, we were on the far end of the firing line. You get 2 minutes to prepare from the end of the huddle meeting......Period. Can't get rigged in that time? TOUGH for you!

Bonnie and I have 7 years of 200 and 600 yard match shooting experience, I shoot Expert to Master with AR-15 and we both shoot High Master with 17HMR at 200. We were NOT newbees and we still had a terrible time complying with time and position demands at Appleseed.

The Appleseed pace was relentless, the instruction was virtually nonexistent and it left women and kids dejected and discouraged as they were just left to fail.

The instructors SHOWED us what to do then we had to go to the line to figure it out. If you couldn't figure it out in a few seconds, the firing command came anyway and you just failed. There was no coaching, correction or assistance. If you failed.....TOUGH for you.

Once you got behind and had a taste of failure, the day went downhill quickly. You could see the discouragement on faces all down the firing line.

I agree with all of the comments Mr. Asagi made above. We left after the first day and will never return.

I got us hooked up to the Appleseed for Bonnie's 61st birthday present and had to apologize later for my poor judgement.

Flash

 

[wksinatl]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROGER4314</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bonnie shot a Marlin .22 bolt action that she has fired in many matches and she shot the scores fine. I had a match 10-22 that shoots bugholes at 50 yards. The rifles were not the problem!

Time was a terrible issue for us because when we broke from the huddle meetings, we were on the far end of the firing line. You get 2 minutes to prepare from the end of the huddle meeting......Period. Can't get rigged in that time? TOUGH for you!

Bonnie and I have 7 years of 200 and 600 yard match shooting experience, I shoot Expert to Master with AR-15 and we both shoot High Master with 17HMR at 200. We were NOT newbees and we still had a terrible time complying with time and position demands at Appleseed.

The Appleseed pace was relentless, the instruction was virtually nonexistent and it left women and kids dejected and discouraged as they were just left to fail.

The instructors SHOWED us what to do then we had to go to the line to figure it out. If you couldn't figure it out in a few seconds, the firing command came anyway and you just failed. There was no coaching, correction or assistance. If you failed.....TOUGH for you.

Once you got behind and had a taste of failure, the day went downhill quickly. You could see the discouragement on faces all down the firing line.

I agree with all of the comments Mr. Asagi made above. We left after the first day and will never return.

I got us hooked up to the Appleseed for Bonnie's 61st birthday present and had to apologize later for my poor judgement.

Flash </div></div>

I hate that you 2 had such a bad experience at AppleSeed. I plan on taking my 12 year old this spring. We are both excited about going and will be REALLY disappointed if ours ends up anything close to what y'all had.

Keith

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

I'm curious. Are the Appleseed instructors NRA certified, or are they just 'in-house' appointed AS instructors? Anyone know?

 

[joemerc]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm curious. Are the Appleseed instructors NRA certified, or are they just 'in-house' appointed AS instructors? Anyone know? </div></div>

They are "in-house" appointed.

 

[ROGER4314]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<span style="font-weight: bold">We strive to make people Riflemen and the standard we use to determine success is the modified AQT. Being a Rifleman, however, is more than just marksmanship. It's about persevering and rising to a challenge.</span>

=================================================================

Women and kids are openly recruited to attend Appleseed. Older folks (Like Bonnie & I) are assured that the positions can be modified to accommodate disabilities. The kids and women were simply allowed to fail. As older shooters who needed some changes, we were advised after we arrived that the changes disqualified us from attaining Rifleman status. I suspect that a shooter who was confined to a wheelchair would be also be disqualified.

I am a certified technical instructor with 22 years experience. <span style="font-weight: bold">What I saw at Appleseed was NOT teaching. They let those people fail rather than to work with them. The rules of proper instruction include: "If they don't understand, don't move on. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Stop, coach, assist and move on when everyone gets it."</span></span>

There was nothing for the students to overcome. If they don't understand the instructions, they CAN'T succeed. <span style="font-weight: bold">Seeing something done ONE time is not teaching. Another rule of instruction is: "<span style="text-decoration: underline">telling</span> is not <span style="text-decoration: underline">teaching</span>."</span>

There was no practice or coaching. That was NOT the fault of the students. The instructors were responsible for the failure of those women, new male shooters and kids.

It was a damned shame to witness it.

There will not be another Appleseed in our future!

Flash

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

That's interesting.

Glad you came forward with this information, Flash. It'll save me from wasting my money. I thought it might be a program that could benefit my son, but the more research I do on this, the more I see it simply would not be to his benefit (or mine), to even consider going to an AS event.

 

[ROGER4314]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Glad you came forward with this information, Flash. It'll save me from wasting my money. I thought it might be a program that could benefit my son, but the more research I do on this, the more I see it simply would not be to his benefit (or mine), to even consider going to an AS event.

===========================================================

That you love your son enough to start him in the shooting sports is remarkable. Based upon that, I PROMISE that your personal instruction with your child will be much more effective and meaningful to both of you than if you brought him to Appleseed.

Incidentally, if you attend Appleseed simply as a personal coach for your son, you will be prohibited from going to the firing line to help him. They have a line established about 10 feet behind the firing line and you must remain behind it. The boy will be on his own. If you shoot with him, the pace is so furious that you will not have time to assist him.

I taught Bonnie to shoot and brought her from a newbee to a High Master shooter at 200 yards and Expert to Master at 600 yards. She is also a very capable pistol shooter. I wanted Appleseed to give her some tips and another perspective to her development as a shooter. The effort failed so miserably that I was embarrassed.

Flash

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

That was all I was looking for if I took my son to an Appleseed, was to see if he could pick up some shooting tips that I may have overlooked.

I can't see as where I've over looked a thing in his training at this point. At least I'm able to give him the one on one instruction and coaching, through which I see this paying off on the firing line whether we are running our own time drills with friends, or shooting slow fire for optimum accuracy.

I think people do jump into this AS Program without first researching it to see exactly what it does offer, and the quality of instruction available. For the most part, we shooters are a trusting lot. We're willing to support a new idea - new approach. However, don't try to sell me a bill of goods I already own.

 

[tdow]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm curious. Are the Appleseed instructors NRA certified, or are they just 'in-house' appointed AS instructors? Anyone know? </div></div>

There are several levels of Appleseed instructors: Instructors in Training (IIT), Instructor (aka Regular Instructor- RI), Senior Instructor...

It generally takes a minimum of two Appleseeds attended and a Rifleman score to become an IIT. It takes four Appleseeds working as an IIT to become an Instructor, along with written and oral tests, along with the Shoot Boss' recommendation.

As for ROGER4314's comments, I apologized to him in a PM for his experience, and put his post on the Appleseed instructor forum so the instructors at his event could benefit from his take on the event. It's painful to read that he had such a negative experience. I would like to get the other side of the story as well.

I will say this, we push the time limit. If you have rounds in your mags, you don't need much time with your rifle to prep with the exception of sight adjustments and equipment issues. That's the main place where we try to save time.

Having said that, there's no excuse for not coaching. It's axiomatic among Appleseed Instructors that instructors should be "down in the weeds" with the shooters, constantly engaging shooters, reading the targets (and teaching the shooters to do the same), correcting position, and fine tuning on the steps of firing the shot.

If it happened like you said it did, they did it wrong, and I apologize for that.

 

[tdow]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That was all I was looking for if I took my son to an Appleseed, was to see if he could pick up some shooting tips that I may have overlooked.</div></div>

That sounds totally reasonable and feasable.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't see as where I've over looked a thing in his training at this point. At least I'm able to give him the one on one instruction and coaching, through which I see this paying off on the firing line whether we are running our own time drills with friends, or shooting slow fire for optimum accuracy.</div></div>

I know I'm not telling you anything new, but sometimes it takes someone other than a parent or spouse to actually get something to click into someone's mind. This happens with my wife all the time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think people do jump into this AS Program without first researching it to see exactly what it does offer, and the quality of instruction available. For the most part, we shooters are a trusting lot. We're willing to support a new idea - new approach. However, don't try to sell me a bill of goods I already own.</div></div>

The vast majority of Appleseed attendees I have met had a positive experience, even if not all of them are going to become avid shooters. I was already somewhat experienced at my first shoot, but I still learned enough to really get things fine tuned. It was the history that got me hooked.

It speaks well of you that you have put so much time and effort into researching what Appleseed is all about. In the end you can't really depend on what I say- yes I have a bias, but I started out as a skeptical shooter too. You can't depend on what ROGER4314 said either- I'm not discounting that he had a bad time, but he went to 1 Appleseed.

You obviously care enough about your son that he will be just fine regardless of whether you decide to go to an Appleseed or not. There are other shooting programs available, smallbore, highpower, 4H, etc... The point is that we need to get young people to appreciate firearms culture.

Now I'll try to stop preaching Appleseed on Frank's forum

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

While Roger4314 had a bad experience at an appleseed, I wonder how many people had a very good experience the same weekend... likley hundreds.

With the posting of his complaints appleseed will self examine in an effort to be better in the future.

Nobody says we are perfect, but our goal is to change the climate in America from one where shooters are eyed with suspicion, to a climate of shooting being a normal family activity.

If Roger were to use his skills as a teacher to teach marksmanship, then he could be a factor in positive change to where our republic is headed.

If Roger's course of instruction was more effictive than appleseed's, I would join him.

There are people who do stuff and people who talk about doing stuff.

All of us shooters need to be doers, to prevent the downfall of life as we know it.

 

[ROGER4314]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle


<span style="font-weight: bold">If it happened like you said it did, they did it wrong, and I apologize for that.</span>
===============================================================

Bonnie has had major back surgery and can't shoot from positions. She has always shot matches from a little table that I built for her. Two shooting clubs even named a special class just for her....."the butterfly class." She is a High Master shooter at 200 yards.

I corresponded with Appleseed until I was certain that Bonnie could use her little table in the event. I was assured that it would be fine and the instructors responded that it would be OK as well.

I came to the Appleseed with horrible pain in my left elbow. I'm 63 and have a lot of joint pain. I asked for accommodation in using a bipod from prone to ease the wear and tear on my elbow. That was not allowed. I'm a tough old bird so I strapped on some pads and got after it.

By noon, my elbow had swelled to 150% of its normal size with severe pain and I knew that I couldn't continue. In talking with the instructor, it was revealed that <span style="font-weight: bold">because Bonnie was shooting from a table, she would not be allowed to shoot for Rifleman status.</span> Bonnie and I discussed that and decided she would finish the day but there was no point in staying for Sunday if she was disqualified.

I took a position behind Bonnie and watched the firing line for several hours. <span style="font-weight: bold">I saw and heard everything that happened. I am a certified technical instructor. What I saw was very disturbing.</span>

As I stated before, there was NO correction or assistance to the students and they become frustrated and failed. If they had difficulties in rigging up, that was too bad. If they didn't have enough time to figure out the new position....that was too bad. The pace was relentless.

So here is our score.....two requests for reasonable accommodation by folks with handicaps.....denied with disqualification. One crippled up shooter.

Appleseed does not care if you show up for Sunday (day two). They have your money and will not refund it. You just eat it.

============================================================
<span style="font-weight: bold">"There are people who do stuff and people who talk about doing stuff."</span>
============================================================

When I tried to relate these issues to Appleseed, they completely shut me off and would not respond in any way. I asked for a refund for Sunday and that was totally ignored....not denied.....ignored. When they shut off communication, you may as well be farting in the wind. They will not hear you.

It is not my intention to badmouth Appleseed but they will NOT accept negative criticism and people need to know what can happen at one of these events. I'm sure that some Appleseeds are very worthwhile. Ours was not.

From experience, <span style="font-weight: bold">If you have anything negative to say about Appleseed, <span style="text-decoration: underline">they will bury it and slam the door.</span> That is why I relate my experiences in forums. Appleseed will NOT address the problems! I tried to offer constructive criticism but they would not listen.</span>

What I saw on that firing line was exactly as stated. I spent hours observing the process, I am qualified to assess the educational process and can say that I would never again take anyone that I cared about to an Appleseed.

If you doubt what I say, simply look at the facts. There were TWO instructors for approximately 22 shooters. What would YOU say the quality of instruction was? If the instructors were overwhelmed, why didn't they slow it down and WORK with the students? (Cover less but cover it well.)

Flash

 

[81Z4ME]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Wow. Sorry if anyone had a bad experience at an Appleseed but the topic here was about the LTR's I think...

The idea of the LTR is as stated-a cheaper alternative to a centerfire rifle that will still allow you to learn and practice the fundamental marksmanship skills taught at an Appleseed.

The 10/22 was the first accepted/promoted LTR as it was semi auto (like the M1A and M1 Garand). It fed from a box magazine (like the M1A). You could get Tech Sights for it (so you had the same sight picture as the M1 and M1A (and AR15 for that matter). It was easy to put a GI web sling on (1&1/4" wide of course). Lot's of companies made accessories for 10/22.

Over the last year or so Remington and Marlin have come out with a semi auto .22 that can be turned into an LTR but 3 years ago the 10/22 was just about the only one, so it got the nod. If you go to the Appleseed forum you'll see supporting threads for the Marlin and the Remington recommending modifications and giving links to places that sell accessories to help get your rifle of choice set up to make them easier to use at an Appleseed.

Bolt actions work, they just make you work harder. I've seen guys shoot Savage, Anschutz and Remington bolt action rifles in .22 and .223 and shoot rifleman scores - it just take a lot more work to get that good at loading and manipulating the action/bolt. Think about it - with that bolt action you break your NPOA everytime you work the bolt and unless you understand the importance of NPOA and how to get to yours a bolt action will really work you over on an AQT as compared to the semi-auto.

The course of fire and the time limits are pretty much "traditional". When the M1917 and 03 were used the rapid fire stages were "5 & 5", when the M1 Garand came along it was "2 & 8" and they've stuck to the that with the M1A/M14 and the M16/AR15.

As to the AR15 conversions? I like'em. I've not shot one all day or all weekend at an Appleseed (big drawback to instructing is when you're at the range it seems like you're watching everyone else shooting and you can't

. Based on my shooting at the range, if I were going to attempt to use my conversion I'd:
1. find out what kind of ammo worked best (shoot 200 to 300 rounds through it and make sure it'll do it without messing up regularly)
2. get it sighted in before you go (have the bullets hitting 1/2" above your point of aim as you'll be shooting at 1" squares and 25 meter AQT targets and that will put your bullets where you want them)
3. find out whether your conversion kit likes lots of lube or mostly dry (mine like to be wet but some folks swear their's works better fairly dry)
4. take the necessary stuff to clean your conversion kit up at the end of day 1 or prior to the start of day 2. I use carb. cleaner. I pull the conversion kit out and squirt/spray it down good to get rid of the carbon and dirty oil. I scrub with an old tooth brush, move the bolt back and forth, spray/scrub as needed and let dry. Then I relube with my oil of choice (I used to use 3n1 oil but since I started using Mobil synthetic engine oil on the AR15's I'm using that on the conversion kits, too.)
5. keep a little bottle of oil with your kit/ammo and give it a squirt or three if it starts acting up

The .22 conversion kits can have problems with the extractor not working right (you can modify yours or buy aftermarket extractors). They can have problems with the plastic magazines (works with one but not the next one). They can "like" one brand of ammo but not another.

Its your gear, get it figured out before you go to the Appleseed and that way you only have to learn rather than decide whether to learn/practice or troubleshoot/do rifle maintenance.

I've seen folks shoot rifleman scores with .22 conversion kits. Be aware that if you use a .22, whether a kit or a rifle that you should still have some type of back up rifle (heck, they even recommended that back in the days when Appleseeds and RBCs were all center fire rifles) and if you've got a centerfire you'll want to shoot that some on the afternoon of day 2 since it's definately "different" than the .22.

Good luck, have fun, learn some new/good skills and then do the right thing and try to pass on what you learn.

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

To those considering going to an Appleseed, or considering taking another person to one (especially a newer shooter) I have some suggestions:

1. Make sure the attendee has been out shooting before. A few times is good.
2. Make sure the attendee is familiar with the rifle he/she will be using. Appleseed does not teach mag changes, malfunction clearing, etc. They teach shooting. Period.
3. Bring a semi-auto .22. I suggest the Ruger 10/22 and the Marlin 795.

My blog post on suggestions with details.

 

[ROGER4314]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<span style="font-weight: bold">WHOA......gotta weigh in on this one!</span>

My comments about Appleseed were sent to the AS folks. That was necessary. What was said needed to be said.

The last post I made included information about how <span style="font-weight: bold">Appleseed shuts down differing opinions and buries negative comments</span>.

Every Appleseed instructor on this thread was honestly concerned and open about our negative experiences. You guys are good people!

Tonight at 6:37 PM, a new person registered here, recorded 3 posts one of which is a copy & paste, chides us for being off topic in discussing the Appleseed program on post #4 and writes a book on Appleseed preparation and preparing for AS shooting stages.

One of his posts says he is a former Appleseed Instructor. He shut down the AS discussion. Imagine that!

If it looks like Fred and smells like Fred, it's probably Fred or one of his boys. Guys, I agree that <span style="text-decoration: underline">it's time to move on</span> but we have been skunked!

Do you see how negative issues are handled by those folks? <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Drown it out, cover it up or discredit it but do not deal with it.</span></span>. You see it right here.

Thanks for your patience and input. I wish Bonnie had a chance to attend an Appleseed where you guys are instructing! I'm sure the outcome would be very positive!

I think the world of the Appleseed <span style="text-decoration: underline">people</span> and applaud you for your efforts but there is something really wrong in the core of that organization.

Flash

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROGER4314</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">WHOA......gotta weigh in on this one!</span>
Tonight at 6:37 PM, a new person registered here, recorded 3 posts one of which is a copy & paste, chides us for being off topic in discussing the Appleseed program on post #4 and writes a book on Appleseed preparation and preparing for AS shooting stages.

One of his posts says he is a former Appleseed Instructor. He shut down the AS discussion. Imagine that!

If it looks like Fred and smells like Fred, it's probably Fred or one of his boys. Guys, I agree that <span style="text-decoration: underline">it's time to move on</span> but we have been skunked!

Do you see how negative issues are handled by those folks? <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Drown it out, cover it up or discredit it but do not deal with it.</span></span>. You see it right here.
</div></div>

And the talking points that poster made are the same stuff you see everywhere else. Almost the exact same wording.

Roger, I think you have properly identified the problem. You suggest it is either Fred or one of his "troops."

I think you are right, I think it is one of the troops. On another forum, I called this being an "Appleseed Zombie" - because the brain was not being used at all by some of the people posting there!


Another problem not mentioned here is that the truly concerned Appleseed Instructors may take the issue to the State coordinator. The State coordinator may take it further up the line. But the issue will die in management. I've had a State Coordinator tell me "it's not a battle I want to fight within the organization." That says it all.


Oh, and to stay on topic - I also suggest a Marlin 60 as an LTR - add tech-sights and make a few speed-loaders and you will be set.

 

[ROGER4314]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<span style="font-weight: bold">This keeps getting more and more interesting! Our new friend is from West Virginia. Checking the old Atlas tells me that he is not too far down the road from Ramseur, North Carolina.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Looks like we acquired a babysitter!</span></span>
=================================================================

OH, something I failed to note before. I recommend a scope for an AS training rifle as the scope is so much easier to adjust for elevation. In our AS, however, the range faced INTO the sun and the scope images really splattered in that light. Rolled up paper or a sunshade tube would have helped a lot. A guy with a scope might consider that and be prepared.

Additionally, The Tech sight is difficult to adjust for elevation. I was a technician in my former life but that adjustment and I never got along! My hands are XXXL ...... the size of small hams and I always had trouble with that adjustment.

I bought 3 of the Tech Sights and finally took them off of my 10-22 rifle. I do have one Tech Sight mounted on an SKS to date but I can make elevation adjustments on the front sight on that rifle and it looks pretty good, too.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
I sold the 10-22 sight to a friend.
</span>
I never warmed up to the appearance of the 10-22 Tech Sight rear unit and the front sight looks like someone hit it with a hammer and it swelled up! The 10-22 is a slick little rifle and to me, the Tech Sight never looked right on it.

In response to the above, I got the <span style="text-decoration: underline">Williams</span> peep from Midway for one of my 10-22's. I liked the clean lines of the sight and and the ease of adjustment for elevation and windage. It's about 1/2 the price of the Tech Sight and it is super simple.

Flash

 

[rlepage]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bra260</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At the Appleseed I shot, almost everyone was shooting a semi- auto. You would be hard pressed to shoot a bolt action in the time frames required. They may want to have people purchase a rifle that almost anyone can use to shoot in the required time frame. </div></div>

It's not hard if you can run the rifle. My first AQT was with a suppressed CZ 452 using 5 round magazines.(243) Ruger 10/22 (241), 10/22 weak side (239), AR-15 (240), FN PBRXP .308 bolt 4 round mags (218) 4 saved rounds.

The Rifleman patch is a goal, not a merit badge for showing up. It's supposed to be difficult, if it wasn't it wouldn't be worth earning. The intent isn't to get a beginning shooter to the rifleman level the first time out. It's to teach them the basics so they can practice and become riflemen.

 

[ScoutsTrident]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

I started with a stock ruger 10/22 from walmart and of course could not let it be, so I bought an 18 inch Tactical Solutions fluted Bull barrel.

This is the aluminium one and also got the matching matt green Hogue over mold stock. While it is a beauty to behold and great to carry around in the field, it is too light to hold steady on target easily.

There is no weight in the barrel so every movement is transferred to the barrel and makes a steady hold on target difficult.

My friend (who also purchased one) and I decided to fix this by adding the weight of a piece of steel square stock to the barrel just with tape, (field modification) then we looked at each other and broke out laughiing at what goobers we were.

Buying a barrel that costs more than the rifle, because it is so light, then taping a block of steel to it so it will hold on target.

I cut the weight off, put on a big, heavy, inexpensive Bushnell scope.Just polished the trigger, no trigger kit and now I use it to loan to shooters, women, kids. It has Rifleman Scores racked up by eight or nine folks now and is beat up but running fine.

Right now I just run a couple of walmart stock rifles and I have several instructors who run three or four a piece for loaners. Most have the Tech Sights added and also inch and a quarter sling swivels to accomodate the military nylon or canvass M1Garand and M14 slings.

The shooters love them and the sights are the same as the US 30 cal battle rifle sights so they are easy to manipulate and are set at 1 MOA for simple sight adjustments.

 

[rlepage]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arboreal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did the Appleseed with a bolt gun. I couldn't get all of the shots off in time, but I learned a lot. It was great instruction. I liked it so much I volunteered to help promote the events. </div></div>

You don't need to get them all off, but the ones you do need to hit their mark.

To those complaining about 1 mag change, try it with a 4 shot rifle. Shooting is a mental game, on the short time lines I wrote off the last 2 shots and made the first 8 count. usually ran out of time while inserting the 3rd mag, or just after chambering the 9th round.

You can't spend a lot of time fiddling with your position, get into it and start shooting.

Soon as I get some ammo loaded up I intend to try it with a rolling block, 8x58R.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Wow, single type of rifle, lots of modifications required, people having to attend multiple events to attain a badge of honor (and they are not good enough until they do), restrictive COF that often results in new shooters thinking they are not good enough and this sport is not fun...

Good work Appleseed, it sounds to me like you took a GREAT idea and fucked it up.

 

[ROGER4314]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Wow, single type of rifle, lots of modifications required, people having to attend multiple events to attain a badge of honor (and they are not good enough until they do), restrictive COF that often results in new shooters thinking they are not good enough and this sport is not fun...

Good work Appleseed, it sounds to me like you took a GREAT idea and fucked it up.</span>
===============================================================


OMG you cracked me up!! +6444565787809809! My face is gonna break from laughing! OHHHHH it hurts!

I gotta caution you that since I started speaking about our bad experiences at Appleseed, I have taken some real crap on the 'Net. I've been called a "whiner" told I was "stuck on myself", called an Appleseed "Basher", accused of "attacking" Appleseed and it goes on & on. The TRUTH is not popular!

I post in several forums and they have swarmed on me like a pack of vultures!

I'm a tough old bird and it just rolls off of my back but I need to warn you that some shit is coming your way!

Stand by............

Flash






</div></div>

 

[Rundownfid]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Below is a short article I wrote on my "Liberty Rife", a Marlin 795. As a side note my son and I attended our first Appleseed
together in the fall. I qualified Rifleman first with a Marlin 2000, a Biathlon rifle. That was very difficult despite having practiced considerably. I shot the modified 795 once and improved my Rifleman score right off.
Appleseeds are not for everyone, they require considerable physical exertion, the training is intense. The time limits for the course of fire make for considerable pressure. Everyone isn't expected to succeed, especially on the first try. Having competed in many sports I did not find this a cause for distress, but rather embraced the challenge. Perhaps it would be better to have a remedial track for those not ready to complete the regular course? This seems to be the way colleges are handling student not ready to do college level work?

As an instructor in training I have wondered what to do when there is such a diverse group of shooters. However, other than the physically incapable I doubt that many readers of this forum would find Appleseeds too challenging. I believe that this is a great program that will greatly aid the country.

Here is the article:

Modifying the Marlin 795 for the Appleseed
Or How I made a Liberty Rifle and shot Rifleman


I chose to start with the Marlin 795 for two reasons: I have had a number of Marlins and like them all; and I read that it was remarkably accurate and reliable for so inexpensive a rifle. The other obvious choice was the Ruger 10/22, and while I have subsequently seen many of them at Appleseed shoots, I do not regret my choice.

First we might look at what is needed to make a good rifle for an Appleseed shoot. Reliability seems most important. Almost nothing will ruin your day at training faster than a rifle that malfunctions. Secondly the ability to reload it reasonably quickly. Appleseeds require some rather rapid shooting and a single shot, tube fed, or to a lesser extent, a bolt action, are all hindrances. Third, accuracy, both inherent and practical. By inherent I mean what the rifle is capable of shooting under ideal conditions. More importantly is the concept of practical accuracy, to include good sights , a stock that fits, sling, trigger pull, etc. I have put the accuracy in third place as 4 MOA is all that is needed to achieve rifleman. Most off the shelf .22 rifles these days are capable of that level of accuracy. The Marlin is much more accurate than that. However, achieving rifleman will require both a reasonably accurate rifle and a shooter who has learned how to use it well in a variety of field positions and under time constraints.

The Marlin 795 is an excellent compromise choice given the above requirements. It is normally quite reliable, especially if one is careful to clean it thoroughly and then lube it lightly.

It comes with a ten round magazine, and additional magazines are readily available as the design is shared with Marlin ‘s recent bolt and auto .22s. Keeping the rifle fed is pretty easy, except that the magazines are a tight fit and generally have to be pulled out, (more on this later). As a note the Ruger 10/22 is not all that easy to change magazines on either; although the extensive aftermarket has solutions to that problem, like most others, for a price.

The 795 is remarkably accurate “out of the box“, generally significantly more so than the Ruger, however, in fairness there are a myriad of aftermarket options that can turn the Ruger into a tack driver. One limiting factor with the Marlin are the open sights the rifle comes with. In a word, they are impossible. They need replaced (as do the stock sights on a Ruger). While the rifle comes with posts to mount detachable swivels, a sling is a bit more complicated than that. The stock on a Marlin 795 is an inexpensive plastic with a forend that is awfully flexible. So to get practical accuracy from a Marlin the forend needs stiffened for sling use and the sights need replaced. Another “issue” with the Marlin is that it is remarkably light, this is great for weaker shooters, but can be a hindrance for others, especially off hand.

That seems to me to be a rather short list of deficiencies for so inexpensive a rifle (the rifle is often advertised at major sporting goods stores for approximately $120, on sale). Below you will see how I have “fixed” each of the above problems.

Reliability of my rifle was excellent and I have not had to deal with this at all, except to keep the action clean and lightly lubed. I admit to using CLP although it is my understanding that a dry lube may be better.

Reloading, is simply a matter of buying enough magazines for the intended use. For Appleseed four are needed if you will be shooting the rapid 40 shot course. Two will suffice if your event only does regular 10 shot strings of fire. In either case a spare can’t hurt. From my limited experience “Gander Mountain” has good prices, (http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?r=view&i=402897). An area I am considering addressing is loosening up the magazine fit so that released magazines fall free; as this would facilitate quicker reloads, and also allow the support hand and elbow to remain in place and aid a prompt return to NPOA. At this point I have loosened the fit by slightly opening the magazine well by sanding, I don’t find this a very appealing prospect and will be looking for a better solution.

For accuracy a sling is a virtual necessity. Appleseed recommends the GI sling as used on the Garand, etc. I concur, this is a relatively inexpensive and easy to use sling that really works. One can normally buy these from Fred. Yes that Fred, Appleseed’s founder, at( http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/catalog/acc.asp) , although he was temporarily out recently. Unfortunately, the forearm of the Marlin is a rather thin and flexible affair. What I have done on my rifle is to cut a rod and epoxy it into the forearm. This stiffens the forend up beautifully and also adds a little weight, win-win and very inexpensive. Another improvement I did to my rifle stock was to foam the remainder of the rod (a large spike) into the hollow butt of the stock. This eliminates the hollow sound and also adds a little weight to the stock. I used “Great Stuff” foam which one can get at any home improvement store. Another practical accuracy aid is a better trigger. On the Marlin this is actually made of plastic and is, not surprisingly, rather mushy. I have been studying means to improve the trigger but have not yet done anything but run a stone over the surfaces and grease them. Actually, the trigger is somewhat better and appears that it may wear itself into adequacy. Finally, but perhaps most importantly, I replaced the factory open sights with Tech Sites, http://www.tech-sights.com/. These are a huge improvement. This change alone accounted for most of the enhancement to my Marlin’s practical accuracy and usability for Appleseed. The rear aperture attaches directly to the dovetail scope mounting point and the front sight simply replaces the original front sight, using the existing hole. Very simple to install and then easy to sight in. The cost is approx. $75 delivered, and this is money very well spent. An other option would be a scope or red dot sight. I am very fond of aperture sights; and shoot them well, so I do not believe there is more practical accuracy with either for me. However, if you have poor eyesight a scope or red dot might be what you need.

There you pretty much have it, a reliable, accurate rifle out of an inexpensive box. Add sights, sling and swivels, and stiffen up that stock and voila, an excellent rifle to use at an Appleseed and then use to teach others. Let’s get up off the couch and out to the range. With the accuracy and the cost of the Marlin 795 there is no excuse not to earn that rifleman‘s badge.



For Pictures:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rundownfid/sets/72157622843370327/

 

[ROGER4314]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<span style="font-weight: bold">The time limits for the course of fire make for considerable pressure. Everyone isn't expected to succeed, especially on the first try. Having competed in many sports I did not find this a cause for distress, but rather embraced the challenge.</span>
===============================================================

Yours is an interesting post. Please allow me to respond to one point.

We are match shooters with about 7 years and scores of matches under our belts. In a match, we arrive prepared, we know the rules and requirements, pay our entry fees and pit our preparation and experience against conditions, and sometimes pure luck. We've shot some great matches and won! We've also screwed up, had equipment malfunctions and failed. That's understood, fair and honest. Success or failure is the responsibility of each participant.

Appleseed is billed as a training program where shooters of all backgrounds, experience levels and those having different motivational levels and equipment come together to learn marksmanship. Those folks pay good money and are openly recruited to come and LEARN marksmanship skills. <span style="font-weight: bold">They pay you to teach them!</span>

I suspect one of these days one participant will bring Grand Dad's rolling block .22 rifle to shoot at Appleseed and the AS information suggests that is OK. That shooter is DOOMED to failure.

Then the instructors SHOW the shooters what to do ONE TIME in each stage and send them scurrying to the line for a very fast paced shooting stage. If they succeed, Great! If they don't succeed.....tough! We are moving on! That is not teaching!

That is the problem and the point I want to address. <span style="font-weight: bold">You SELL the AS like a training program. You RUN it like a match.</span> Win or lose.....tough crap for you! Then it's suggested that the student needs to attend more than one AS to succeed. That is wrong!

<span style="font-weight: bold">When students fail at Appleseed, it is because AS failed to teach them.</span>

Flash

 

[Rundownfid]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

"I suspect one of these days one participant will bring Grand Dad's rolling block .22 rifle to shoot at Appleseed and the AS information suggests that is OK. That shooter is DOOMED to failure."

Perhaps you are confusing the purpose of training and competition? If a person were to show up with a rolling block they could learn NPOA, Cheek Weld, Sight Picture, Trigger control, Breath control, etc, etc. Admittedly, they would not likely be able to earn Rifleman. I don't see that as a failure; unless their purpose was to earn Rifleman status and not to learn the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship (and some interesting American History).

I am sorry that you did not enjoy your experience at Appleseed, however, as an experienced competitive shooter it appears that you weren't seeking to learn the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship, but rather to earn another award. I am very proud to have earned rifleman, especially with a bolt gun. However, were I to show up at a match where you were shooting I don't believe that I would be competitive with you, a master class shooter in that discipline. I would no doubt "fail", but only if my goal were to beat you and the others who have mastered that discipline. Were I to "lose" and learn and enjoy and rededicate myself to getting the experience and equipment to improve, I would consider that a day well spent. Your experience may differ, I suspect it will.

 

[ROGER4314]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Well, you got a little closer to understanding.

I arrived at the Appleseed as a shooter and asked to use a bipod because my left elbow was flared up with "Arthur". That was denied so I toughed it out until noon and withdrew with a left elbow the size of a softball. I withdrew from the event. It happens.

Bonnie continued and for the next 5 hours, I sat behind the firing line and watched intently. I wasn't a shooter then, I was a professional educator and trained evaluator of educational programs. I was horrified by what I saw!

I was warned what would happen if I criticized AS and here it is. Are you going to bulldoze me into silence? Not a chance. I saw what I saw and I'm qualified to evaluate it.

Appleseed is paid to teach. Please do that.

Flash

 

[tdow]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROGER4314</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, you got a little closer to understanding.

I arrived at the Appleseed as a shooter and asked to use a bipod because my left elbow was flared up with "Arthur". That was denied so I toughed it out until noon and withdrew with a left elbow the size of a softball. I withdrew from the event. It happens.

Bonnie continued and for the next 5 hours, I sat behind the firing line and watched intently. I wasn't a shooter then, I was a professional educator and trained evaluator of educational programs. I was horrified by what I saw!

I was warned what would happen if I criticized AS and here it is. Are you going to bulldoze me into silence? Not a chance. I saw what I saw and I'm qualified to evaluate it.

Appleseed is paid to teach. Please do that.

Flash </div></div>

Roger,

I don't intend any hostility or sarcasm, I would just like to clarify your compliants for my own edification.

What would you have done differently had you been an instructor at the event you attended?

Would it have been possible for the instructors to implement your suggestions while maintaining a safe range (my understanding is that the student to instructor ratio at this shoot was less than optimal)?

What specific things about the program do you find deficient?

How would you alter them, or what would you replace them with?

What were your goals entering the event?

How could the instructors have helped you to reach your goals?

Did you voice any of this to the instructors at the time?

--Todd

 

[ROGER4314]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<span style="font-weight: bold">I don't intend any hostility or sarcasm, I would just like to clarify your compliants for my own edification.</span>
================================================================


<span style="text-decoration: underline">OK...that's fair.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">What would you have done differently had you been an instructor at the event you attended?</span>

Follow the steps listed below.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Would it have been possible for the instructors to implement your suggestions while maintaining a safe range (my understanding is that the student to instructor ratio at this shoot was less than optimal)?</span>

Easily....slow it down! The objective of the AS should not be to skim over the curriculum in order to complete it. The objective is to TEACH and provide positive motivation and encouragement.

<span style="font-weight: bold">What specific things about the program do you find deficient?</span>
Instruction was at the lowest cognitive level- knowledge & comprehension. They SHOWED the students what to do and sent them scurrying back to the line to figure it out for themselves. The prep time was short and if the students failed to master the task, they just moved on with hardly a word said. Once the students began to fail, frustration built, confidence fell and AS simply moved on.

<span style="font-weight: bold">How would you alter them, or what would you replace them with?</span>
Add several steps in the instruction.
Show & describe...encourage
apply...now you do it
check and coach....how is that working? Are there problems? Praise & motivate.......GOOD! Correct as needed.
feedback Should we modify the task to make it work? If so, how? Are you ready?
fire
evaluate....praise, suggest, support
evaluate...success? if so...great! Praise! if not successful..praise and correct if needed.
Check student progress....OK....not ok....do it again to master? We don't move on until mastery is attained.

If a re-shoot or, in the interest of time, a partial re-shoot (one target) is needed for some to attain mastery, it's OK for others who mastered the task to practice by re-shooting, to observe the practice of the others or to take a break and refresh. Practice makes perfect and everyone wins!

Sometimes it helps just to SEE the task in operation. It's all valid instruction.

Note that at each step, the cognitive process moves upward in Blooms Taxonomy. It progresses from the lowest levels knowledge and comprehension to higher ordered thinking processes: how can this be applied? Is it correct? If not, why? How did this work? How could it be improved?

Most importantly, you have tricked the student into dealing with the information 5-6 times and in 5-6 different ways! See, hear, feel, touch, apply, evaluate, synthesize....If I do this differently, how will the results change?

Day 2 reinforces what was MASTERED in day one. It should not simply be another attempt to succeed or fail. They should already have succeed and been motivated on day one.

<span style="font-weight: bold">What were your goals entering the event?</span>
I read about the development of AS from day one. I loved the idea, respected the organization but could not participate in Ramseur due to financial and work considerations. When I discovered an AS would be within 100 miles, I sacrificed at a very difficult financial point to get Bonnie & I to it.

I just wanted to be part of it, to experience it and know what it was like to be there. The historical part of it brought me to tears. I loved every minute of that and felt proud about my heritage as a US citizen!

Additionally, I wanted Bonnie to get another perspective to her instruction. I trained her and I'm not always right so I wanted her to see another aspect of marksmanship instruction. From several points of view, she could pick what was best for her. (OK.....I'm going to have a little fun here) Actually, AS made me look great as a firearms instructor!

For myself, I arrived with a swelled elbow and asked if I could use a bipod so I could at least participate. <span style="text-decoration: underline">That was denied.</span> I knew the chances of my successfully shooting for Rifleman were slim but I just wanted to participate as much as possible. I toughed out the first 4 hours and it absolutely crippled me!

<span style="font-weight: bold">How could the instructors have helped you to reach your goals?</span>
First, I came there somewhat crippled. What would it have hurt if an old geezer shot the course of fire with a bipod? AS would have survived! They should have allowed that bipod because I could have participated and it could have prevented weeks of rehab after the event.

There were two instructors for over 20 shooters and the pace was frantic. At noon, when I had to withdraw due to my elbow swelling to the size of a softball, I talked with the lead instructor. During that conversation, he advised me that <span style="text-decoration: underline">Bonnie would be disqualified</span> from attaining Rifleman status because she shot from her little table.

I corresponded with AS several times before the match and made sure that table was OK before I brought her out there. The instructors were included in the communication process, too. To DQ her after we arrived was crap. What harm would it cause to let an older woman who had major back surgery shoot from a table? We have her targets and she got the scores with a bolt action! Why torpedo her success? What was gained by doing that?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Did you voice any of this to the instructors at the time?</span>
Yes, before, during and after the event. AS simply quit answering my Emails and I turned to posting the problems we had in Forums.

=================================================================
<span style="font-weight: bold">OK...Quid Pro Quo.....Please answer my questions. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">What will YOU do to prevent denial of reasonable accommodations for handicapped shooters from happening again?

If a shooter makes Rifleman scores from a wheelchair, is he/she a REAL Rifleman? Not "almost", not "adapted" or "conditional"....100% Rifleman?

Is a veteran with one arm or one leg who shoots from rest or a chair, a REAL Rifleman Not conditional, not "almost as good as".......100% Rifleman?

Can a person who must shoot the entire COF from prone because of disability make 100% Rifleman status?

How will <span style="text-decoration: underline">YOU</span> make a difference in instruction at AS?
</span>
Flash

 

[tdow]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROGER4314</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
=================================================================
<span style="font-weight: bold">OK...Quid Pro Quo.....Please answer my questions. </span></div></div>

Yessir.

<span style="font-weight: bold">What will YOU do to prevent denial of reasonable accommodations for handicapped shooters from happening again?

If a shooter makes Rifleman scores from a wheelchair, is he/she a REAL Rifleman? Not "almost", not "adapted" or "conditional"....100% Rifleman?

Is a veteran with one arm or one leg who shoots from rest or a chair, a REAL Rifleman Not conditional, not "almost as good as".......100% Rifleman?

Can a person who must shoot the entire COF from prone because of disability make 100% Rifleman status?</span>

I'll answer as if I was working the shoot and encountered these circumstances, without trying to speak you any particular situation such as yours. I would answer yes to all of them.

I've let people alter their positions if they say they are physically unable to do it. Why sweat the small stuff? I'm not donating my time to be a hardass, a drill instructor, or an anal retentive jerk. I would just take what the shooter tells me at face value and assume that the person is going to do the best they can.

I have to be suspicious of folks at work, but I don't want to live like that, especially at a shoot. I'm going to assume that it's not some ploy to gain an unfair advantage to get a green patch as a trophy. The shooting still needs to be there.

The main thing for me is that the shooter shows up with a teachable attitude and is willing to be challenged. It's your time and your money. I'm going to do the best that I can regardless.

If someone can beat the odds in spite of limitations, that's inspiring to me.

<span style="font-weight: bold">How will <span style="text-decoration: underline">YOU</span> make a difference in instruction at AS?
</span>

Well I'm just one guy, and I don't have grand aspirations for control of the program, just what I say and do.

To be honest, at my first shoot I was a lot less receptive to what the shooters needed. I was mostly calling the line, and there's not much one on one doing that. Every time I try to engage a little more, to figure things out a little more, to get inside their heads and figure out the positions more effectively. I'm not what you'd call a social genius, so it takes a real effort for me, but I am extremely patient.

I don't have a lot of expertise with disabilities (to my detriment), but I can make reasonable decisions on the fly. I think that's the bottom line, just being honest and accepting what people have to offer.

Somewhat on topic...

In Menotomy, MA on April 19, 1775, Jason Russell did his part to fight the redcoats by shooting from his front porch from behind some wood he had placed there for cover. He was urged to move to a better position, but he had to fight from where he was. He was unable to walk.

He probably knew he wouldn't last long, but he felt that he had to fight. He said, "An Englishman's home is his castle."

He was shot and bayoneted at his doorstep, but not before he took a few of them with him.

 

[ROGER4314]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

TDOW

May God Bless Jason Russell and all the other patriots that wrenched this land from tyranny of the King!

Your answers are great and I'd take a course from you anytime! Well done!

This might help you in your instruction a bit. In preparing for a Texas teacher evaluation, a new teacher will prepare a nice presentation, give it flawlessly and fail the evaluation! The evaluator scarcely looks at the teacher. As long as he/she isn't doing anything too bizarre, it barely even mentions the teacher!

<span style="font-weight: bold">The evaluator is looking at what the students are doing.</span> If they're racked out, doodling, frustrated, or clearly not engaged, the teacher is ineffective.

So in your teaching, always focus on what the students are doing. If they are expressing frustration, asking their bunkies what to do, asking questions or making "I can't get this" noises, it's time to STOP, work with the students and get the class back on point.

<span style="font-weight: bold">When that happens, ditch the lesson plan, find out where you lost them, modify activities to get the students squared away and continue only when the students are engaged in the lesson.</span>

You have the "makins" of a great teacher. Just keep doing what you're doing!

Flash

 

[Nickle]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Well, I've lurked on this forum off and on over the past few years, and this thread got me to register.

First off, I'll tell you exactly who I am.

The user name I use here, I use many other places. Project Appleseed, AR-15.com, FAL Files, Frugal Squirrels, M14 Firing Line and others.

I am who I say I am, matter of fact, my real first name is Roger.

I do work with RWVA's Project Appleseed, and am one of the very senior people with the program. No, I am not Fred. He'll be the first one to tell you that. Fred and I are in fact, good friends, but if you have a gripe with him, take it up with him. I am neither his keeper or his defender. I am also one of the Master Instructors (there are 11 of us) and I am the primary person working with Instructor Development and Scheduling.

I have numerous years of varied marksmansip experience, mostly with rifles and shotguns. Not much good at skeet, but Iget by. Riflery, on the other hand, I'm pretty decent at. Not the best, by a long shot, but more than good enough to teach it.

I also have some physical limitations, mostly due to severe Rheumatoid Arthritis (Roger, I do know what you're going through, I do too).

I am an ex-Smallbore competitor, and an ex-Bench Rest competitor, started at the ripe age of 13 (thanks Dad), and am 55 now.

Let me delve into some of what's been discussed, so we're all on the same sheet of music here. Mods, forgive me if I get long winded here.

To address the original post, and the meat of this subject:

Yes, I'll come right out and recommend using a semi-auto for Appleseed. 10/22's can easily be had for a decent price and they work. So do the Marlins, and they are a tad cheaper. Both work, and work well. Between my girlfriend and myself, we have 6 of them, and they get about 5,000+ rounds per year, some seeing near 10,000.

I'll come right and say I cannot recommend the Rem 795. I have yet to see one hold up for the 2 days and rounds needed.

Bolt guns do indeed work, and I'll recommend a Savage Mk II series. I have a 93R17 in .17 HMR, and like it.

I have had newbie shooters come out with a Savage (I remember a 40 something year old school teacher that was a brand new shooter using a .22 identical to my .17, and she made Rifleman her first Appleseed) and do well.

I have several Instructors in my area that strictly use bolt guns, and they have no problems. CZ, Savage and Rem 513T are what they use. I also own a Rem 513T, and will tell you they work awesome (though some say it's cheating, as they shoot so well).

 

[Nickle]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Now, I'll say the poor experiences a couple of you have had is being looked into and discussed among the powers that be at Appleseed. If you have comments, direct them my way, or at the specific Instructors for that event. Please be specific and constructive, as I don't suffer fools that want to blame someone else for their own failings. This is Sniper's Hide, right? And no Sniper worth bearing the name would ever blame someone else for his own failure, or whine.

Now, one of you folks seem awful suspicious to me (mods, excuse my calling them out, but I notice a trend here).

Seems somebody has recently registered here, and all but 2 of his posts are bashing a program he attended a few months before registering here. So, I googled his user name, and lo and behold, he's done this same thing elsewhere.

So, I'll take those posts with a grain of salt, and move on.

As to Appleseed Instructor qualifications, if you've ever done an NRA Instructor Course, you may understand this. Not bashing the NRA, they do an awesome job. But, just because someone is an NRA Instructor, doesn't mean they always are good. The requirements are far more basic than RWVA's.

We require a prospective Instructor to have attended 2 of our events, and have shot at least 210 out of 250 on an AQT, and not as a fluke. Once they do that, if the Instructor running the event thinks they are a good prospect, they can become an Instructor In Training (or IIT, they wear Orange hats), where they will work under the tutelage of an Instructor for 3 to 4 events, and demonstrate by written tests and performance that they are capable. They can attend a weekend Instructor course (we call them IBC's) to make that process a little shorter, but they still must work a few more events and take a written test and performance test to get that Red Hat.

The NRA requires you demonstrate a solid background in firearms safety and shooting skills, and then take a 6 hour basic block followed by a discipline specific block of 5-16 additional hours. (Direct from their website.)

I have had several NRA Rifle Instructors become RWVA Instructors, and for them, it can be a humbling experience. Once they get that Red hat with us, they make great instructors, no doubt, but some of them find their NRA training lacking. Their words, not mine, so don't think I'm bashing here. Just calling it like it is.

 

[Nickle]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Roger, I'll back up what TDow says about adapting to shooters with physical limitations. We have a gentleman that works on that and that alone, and he is working up some good stuff.

I'll extend an invite to ANYBODY that has physical limitations to come to an Appleseed. Especially one in New England or New York.

We'll work with your situation.

Yes, we do tend to get people away from using bipods, but, that's only because most of them don't need them. It appears that Roger here, above, is someone where it's very justified. So, I'll apologize on behalf of the organization for that happening. But, you owe it to us to let us know your situation.

Yup, like the man said, if you have to compensate for your problems, and you get that score in, you're not a lesser person for it. You are actually a better person for it, as you had to fight the difficulty AND the limitations.

We award only ONE kind of Rifleman patch, 100%. If you had to compensate for your issues, you're still 100%.

Notice one word you haven't seen here. Disabled. Not mentioned, because it doesn't apply. If you can get it done with compensating for it, then you're not "disabled". If you shoot from a wheel chair, modifying your position, then you're not "disabled", as you did do it. I detest the word. Just like I detest "crippled". You are only "disabled" or "crippled" if you allow yourself to be. The rest of you are just actually working harder to do the same thing as everybody else, and you have my fullest respect. Therefore, we know that you are just the same as everyone else, when it comes to marksmanship. You just are adapting for your body limitations.

Now, I've rambled more tha nenoug hfor 2 people, so I'll get off my soapbox.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Nickle, thanks for showing an interest.

You may wish to also check out
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...rue#Post1633075

This thread was moved/continued there. There are a few really good suggestions on directions the program should take in the future.

I really hope to see Appleseed continue to do well in the future. If you are flexable, I think it will.

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Good info by Nickle. I personally welcome the idea of someone "high up" in the Appleseed program taking some of the problems to heart.

I agree that the Appleseed instructor qualifications appear to be much more intensive than the NRA instructor qualifications. I'd venture that the typical Appleseed instructor is a more capable shooter than the typical NRA instructor... though that could vary from person to person.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, one of you folks seem awful suspicious to me (mods, excuse my calling them out, but I notice a trend here).

Seems somebody has recently registered here, and all but 2 of his posts are bashing a program he attended a few months before registering here. So, I googled his user name, and lo and behold, he's done this same thing elsewhere.

So, I'll take those posts with a grain of salt, and move on.</div></div>
I almost kind of hope, Nickle, you were "calling me out" with this quote. Because if so, it will help me make a few points. Mind, you, I am not going to flame, insult, get emotional, get personal, or otherwise break any rules of the site (except perhaps the post being a bit off-topic) and if the off-topic part is too much, please mods, advise me and delete it.

I, too have lurked here many years.

I am not afraid to say my name, either. It is Clay. I use the handle "Usagi" on many other forums, as well... some Nickle listed, and some others.

I am not afraid to state my purpose: to inform prospective shooters about what to expect at an Appleseed. And to do so objectively... not from the standpoint of so many I see online - overwhelmingly excited about the event to the point of not being able to see its flaws (to Nickle's credit, he did not at all come across like this, IMO).

My secondary purpose has been to become a source of information for the Appleseed program itself. So many of their pundits (again, Nickle is an exception here) cannot see the forest for the trees. They think the program is perfect. Nothing is. My hope is that my observations will get back to those up the ladder so that the program will take a hard look at making necessary changes.

I do this <span style="font-weight: bold">BECAUSE I ENJOYED THE PROGRAM</span> and I want more to enjoy it as well. If the problems I observe are not rectified, there will be no Appleseed program in a few years. That is not a good thing.

Like Roger, I have made these observations on several forums. When that happens, it is funny to see the Appleseeders bash me, make accusations, sling mud, make excuses, and generally cast the program in a poor light due to their actions. (Again, I do not recall Nickle as having done this).

A couple of things the skeptics always say to me is:
"Why did Usagi not enjoy the program?" or
"I'm sorry you had a bad experience.." or some-such.
For the record - <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">I enjoyed the Appleseed I attended</span></span>. If you see any statement by me online to the contrary, please point it out!
Mrs. Usagi came away frustrated due to some poor instruction (by a red-hat - whom I have seen to post on this forum, though not in this thread), but she now looks back and enjoys what she learned.

I make the observations and criticisms I do for one main reason:
I saw the instructor (red-hat mentioned that frustrated my wife) sour at least 3 youths (and possibly two others) to the shooting sports. As shooters, we can all agree that this is the worst thing that could have happened (injury notwithstanding).

I'd like clarification on one thing: if I am the one being called out, please let me know which posts/statements you see as me "bashing" the Appleseed program. I'm not saying I didn't - but I am saying that has never been my intent. Perhaps clarification on my part would be in order?

Please take all my statements with a grain of salt. I will never say that you just have to believe me. I will always offer proof.

And as for any notion of where my intent comes from and what makes me qualified to make suggestions to the Appleseed... I offer these facts. I am a board member of a large martial arts organization. It is a 501(c)3, just like the RWVA. We have about twice to three times the instructors as Appleseed currently claims (500-600). No, that's not a whizzing contest, just a fact. We are challenged with the tasks of:
- Growing our membership (like Appleseed)
- Providing top-notch instruction to our students (like Appleseed should want to do)
- Providing our instructors with room for growth
So, my advice and criticism stems from a sense of having "been-there-done-that," more than anything else. It can be frustrating to see an organization you like and want to take that next step of growth be so close, but not make the minuscule changes needed to do so!

As Nickle stated, no sniper would ever blame someone else for their own failure, or whine. And I will not.
- At my first Appleseed, I managed to shoot Rifleman once - and promptly tore up the result before the instructors saw, in an attempt to preserve my wife's sanity (she was already out in the car, very frustrated at this point).
- I can now consistently shoot in the 230's on the AQT with a sling and a scope. This is thanks in no small part to the instruction I received at the Appleseed shoot. Specifically by way of one hint given me by someone who goes by the handle "Big Mama" on their forums... totally helped my prone shooting.
- Recently, I shot multiple "Rifleman" scores on AQT's without a scope and without a sling. I had a personal objective of being able to shoot 210 or more "without any device" as I put it. I blogged about it, here.

Am I a perfect shooter? Absolutely not. I can shoot rifleman on the AQT and that is not as easy as I first thought.
Can others on this forum top those numbers? Probably.
Do I make claims other than that? See above. My expertise is in properly instructing those that seek you out for instruction.

Hope this helps anybody who reads any of my posts above.
ETA: Page 3 is mine!

 

[ROGER4314]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Nickle,

Thanks for signing in and joining our forum.

Incidentally, I checked several times with the originators of this thread and they did not feel that the thread had been hijacked. They kept saying "go for it" so we did.

Also, thanks to the mods for letting the air be cleared on this subject. They could have shut the thread down but didn't. Thank you for the open handed management!

I didn't start this AS commentary but weighed in once and it took off. Apparently, what was said, needed to be said.

Your posts are typical of AS people. They are good people, who believe in what they are doing. Of course, they are highly paid....(snicker) and work long hours for that massive paycheck. Somehow, however, we got off on a bad path. From what I've heard, the experiences we had at AS were not isolated.

Summed up, our criticisms included:

We requested then were denied, reasonable accommodation for Bonnie and myself. Her accommodations were arranged for days in advance. None of the requested changes amounted to anything from the AS prospective but meant the world to us.

We saw students washing out and that was termed "OK". Most disturbing were comments later saying that it is OK to watch a kid or a lady sink in failure and just let them do that. I went off on that and I'll never be able to see similar behavior again without intervening. Hell will be raised!

After the event, I attempted to share our experiences with AS to keep these things from happening again. The lines of communication were severed by AS.

Obviously, the story got longer and louder but this post sums it up.

So how do good AS people end up so far off the track of proper behavior? How do good AS people condone that treatment of new shooters?

I took lot of heat for speaking up about our experiences and some of the comments got very ugly. You suggest that the organization is addressing these issues and the end result will be a kinder and better Appleseed. If that's the case, this will all be worth it.

Flash