Appleseed Question

[Peahi2]

Hi folks,

I'm interested in attending an Appleseed in the future. My childhood 10/22 is buried somewhere back at mom's house and probably lost forever.

Anyhows, my current rimfire is a CZ 457 with a chassis and an Athlon medias tac scope. Can I use this for appleseed? I know I can adjust the parallax on the scope to get down to 25 meters. Would there be problems with the weight of the setup, or any other usability issues? I have other optics I can swap in from other guns (TA33, SWFA SS 2.5-10x32, trijicon SRO, holosun 510), but I hate to screw around with my existing set up. I also realize using something else that is more suited to AR will open the door to figuring out mounting. I prefer to shoot with the gun as is, but I don't want to have gear overkill that gets in the way of learning good technique. I curious to hear from any past attendees about what they saw and what works well and what doesn't. I'm also interested in hearing tips, learnings, etc. I know my crap eyesight will be part of the challenge and so will mobility lol.

Thanks in advance.

 

[johnnyvw]

The only negative for your set-up will be during the faster timed portions, since your magazines only hold 5 rounds...you'll need a few more mags than the guys running 10/22s Of course, the scope will be a bit overkill LOL. If you can swap over to the SWFA, you'll probably find it more suitable. Otherwise, follow the recommendations on the Appleseed website. Good luck, and have fun!

 

[Mr. Wolf]

The 10/22s rule the roost in Appleseed events. There were some AR-22s and/or CMMG 22LR conversions that did well. An 11 year old was shooting a 6.5 CM but quickly switched to a borrowed 10/22. His dad shot an AR-15 variant the first day (must have spent $300+ in ammo alone on the first day) then borrowed a 10/22.
IMHO, anything more than 6x may result in restricted field of view that will chew up valuable time, especially in the standing to sitting and standing to prone stages.

Two 10 round magazines required as some of the stages require shooting 2 + mag change with 8 rounds.
A sling is a must for unsupported shooting. All of the stages are unsupported shooting.

Reliable high velocity ammo to ensure consistent functioning will be very helpful. Aguilla CP 40gr high velocity was what the instructors and frequenters used.

I used my Savage B22 Precision with the Arken SH4 4-14 and scored 190s, then borrowed a 10/22 with a Leupold 2-6x and shot 216, 212 and 210 for a Rifleman patch.

Good luck, you’ll have a lot of fun and really get drilled on the Natural Point of Aim and sling shooting.

YMMV, happy shooting

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Anyhows, my current rimfire is a CZ 457 with a chassis and an Athlon medias tac scope. Can I use this for appleseed? I know I can adjust the parallax on the scope to get down to 25 meters. Would there be problems with the weight of the setup, or any other usability issues? I have other optics I can swap in from other guns (TA33, SWFA SS 2.5-10x32, trijicon SRO, holosun 510), but I hate to screw around with my existing set up. I also realize using something else that is more suited to AR will open the door to figuring out mounting. I prefer to shoot with the gun as is, but I don't want to have gear overkill that gets in the way of learning good technique. I curious to hear from any past attendees about what they saw and what works well and what doesn't. I'm also interested in hearing tips, learnings, etc. I know my crap eyesight will be part of the challenge and so will mobility lol.

Thanks in advance.

I have shot a 240 out of 250 with a CZ457 and a SWFA 3-15 set at 3-6x for most of the event. Using a bolt action will make you definitely learn how to use the ”rifleman’s cadence” and it is very doable. Make sure that you have means to attach a sling on the forearm of your chassis, quick disconnects can help a lot with sling mounting. I use a magpul RLS sling for $20 or a cotton GI sling. A non padded ar sling may work, but the padded ar slings usually wont allow you to make the arm loop needed for this clinic.

The other 2 big gotchas are cheek weld not high enough and scope eye relief set too short. They will have foam and vet wrap to build a cheekweld if your stock is non adjustable. If you are using a pic rail for the scope mount I’d suggest leaving an open slot in front so you can move the whole scope forward one slot as almost nobody I have seen show up the first time has enough eye relief set for prone and sitting positions. The athlon should be fine for 25 meters and low magnification of 1-4, 1-6x.

get a couple of 10 round mags and mark them with different colored tape on the bottom. This will help a lot with the 2 and 8 mag changes on the fast stages. Also, bring elbow pads or else you will bloody up your elbows the first day and be almost unusable the second day when shooting for score. A good shooting mat also makes life much easier.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Current cz457 with athlon 6-26 tac and kidd 10/22 swfa 3-15set ups for Appleseed Note how far forward scopes are

 

[accurate obsession]

I did it with a CZ 452 UL equipped with aperture sights, plenty of scopes on the line though.

 

[660grizzlyguy]

Current cz457 with athlon 6-26 tac and kidd 10/22 swfa 3-15set ups for Appleseed Note how far forward scopes are
View attachment 7532145View attachment 7532147View attachment 7532151

Good advice from Tiger S. on the scope mounting position when shooting from other than a bench. When I buy a rifle, I get an extended Piccatiny rail that protrudes in front of the receiver ring, giving me the option of getting the scope far enough forward. Factory "drilled and tapped" bases usually work only with the smaller 3x9 type scopes. YMMV

 

[grapo]

I saw few people shooting bolt in the ones I went to and did just fine. As long as you can comfortably shoot offhand and attach a sling it will be good to go.

 

[Peahi2]

Current cz457 with athlon 6-26 tac and kidd 10/22 swfa 3-15set ups for Appleseed Note how far forward scopes are
View attachment 7532145View attachment 7532147View attachment 7532151

Wow, I got a closer look at the cz picture...you weren't kidding. That is super far forward! And its funny bc, I have actually been moving my scope further and further back. Good info to know.

Thanks for all the great info everyone.

 

[Peahi2]

I wish I had apertures. I enjoy shooting irons on my ARs, just to keep things legit. lol

 

[Rockfish Dave]

I shot the apple seed years ago (around 2007-2008) with a CZ452. Received the marksman patch first time out. So if I can do it anyone can. What hampered me the most was the bolt getting sticky by the end of each day.

My advice given my experience would be to bring something like 'Fireclean' to keep everything moving. Honestly I think I would have hit the marksman criteria earlier if I were not fighting the bolt...

For ammo I was using cheap bulk stuff, so I would not over think it.

 

[Peahi2]

I shot the apple seed years ago (around 2007-2008) with a CZ452. Received the marksman patch first time out. So if I can do it anyone can. What hampered me the most was the bolt getting sticky by the end of each day.

My advice given my experience would be to bring something like 'Fireclean' to keep everything moving. Honestly I think I would have hit the marksman criteria earlier if I were not fighting the bolt...

For ammo I was using cheap bulk stuff, so I would not over think it.

Good info! Thanks for the advice!

 

[308pirate]

Wow, I got a closer look at the cz picture...you weren't kidding. That is super far forward! And its funny bc, I have actually been moving my scope further and further back. Good info to know.

Thanks for all the great info everyone.

A sling supported prone and sitting position will force your strong side shoulder back and will move your face much closer to the rifle than what most people are used to now that everyone shoots from a bipod or bags and hardly anyone knows how to really use a sling.

Take the bipod off your rifle, you will not be using it at all.

Dry fire bolt manipulation will be your friend.

I've never done an Appleseed, but I spent years competing in NRA Highpower Rifle which is all sling position shooting.

 

[308pirate]

Sometimes I run the applseed CoF to stay sharp on sling shooting. Last time I did it back in Nov of 2019 I had a pretty good result.

All of these are at 25 meters on properly scaled targets and under the appleseed par times

Standing

Sitting rapid fire. I cant the shit out of my rifles to the right in sitting and forgot to offset NPA for it.

Prone rapid fire (upper row) and prone slow fire (bottom row). I ran the prone rapid fire strings multiple times.

All done with a 452 with a SIG Romeo5 reflex sight and a US M1 sling

 

[308pirate]

Another fun course of fire is the CMP's Rimfire Sporter match

Prone slow fire, 50 yds

Prone rapid fire, 50 yd

Sitting slow fire, 50 yd

Sitting rapid fire, 50 yds

Standing slow fire, 25 yds

Standing rapid fire, 25 yd

Same 452 with a red dot sight and a sling

 

[tango11]

Hi folks,

I'm interested in attending an Appleseed in the future. My childhood 10/22 is buried somewhere back at mom's house and probably lost forever.

Anyhows, my current rimfire is a CZ 457 with a chassis and an Athlon medias tac scope. Can I use this for appleseed? I know I can adjust the parallax on the scope to get down to 25 meters. Would there be problems with the weight of the setup, or any other usability issues? I have other optics I can swap in from other guns (TA33, SWFA SS 2.5-10x32, trijicon SRO, holosun 510), but I hate to screw around with my existing set up. I also realize using something else that is more suited to AR will open the door to figuring out mounting. I prefer to shoot with the gun as is, but I don't want to have gear overkill that gets in the way of learning good technique. I curious to hear from any past attendees about what they saw and what works well and what doesn't. I'm also interested in hearing tips, learnings, etc. I know my crap eyesight will be part of the challenge and so will mobility lol.

Thanks in advance.

The event is most suited for 22lr semi auto if you like to get good score. I think any magnification higher than 4x will slow you down.

 

[erik72]

I did it with a CZ 452 UL equipped with aperture sights, plenty of scopes on the line though.View attachment 7532289

What sight is that? Does yours have the 10mm dovetail with the crowned top? I'd like to do something similar to my Zastava MP22.

 

[accurate obsession]

What sight is that? Does yours have the 10mm dovetail with the crowned top? I'd like to do something similar to my Zastava MP22.

The UL has the 11mm dovetail that CZ uses and that is a BRNO sight set that I was able to get from a fellow on Rimfire Central that has unfortunately passed. The sight has a larger dovetail and requires an adapter which he included.

 

[Peahi2]

I finally did my first appleseed. I had a great time and wow, the instruction was fantastic. My highest score was 183 on the AQT...I can do much better next time! I was fighting my rifle at times, especially when the fatigue set in, and of course my basics fell apart. I was trying to make sure I was dialed in as much as possible before the clinic, but I was scared my scope wasn't as far forward as it needed to be...and it was true! I did my best shooting prone of course. The standing was rough! And for the sitting/kneeling stage, I never finished. I did get good hits on target, but I was only starting to feel comfortable sitting at the end...most of the time, I was struggling and almost abandoned sitting to go with a kneeling variation.

Just to recap, my set up was my cz 457 pro varmint with MDT LSS-RF chassis. A few weeks ago I got a Lothar Walter barrel. My scope was a Helos BTR 1-4.5x24.

Scope shadow was an issue shooting prone. Since my scope and was maxed out in forward adjustment, I'm thinking I could have loosened my scope base (area 419) and pushed it forward a little more so a portion would be sticking out over the barrel (I know not the greatest idea). That could cause a misfeed by having the ejection port cut out misligned with the ejection port, but it could work. Another idea is getting a dovetail offset scope mount used for airguns and rimfire (I ordered one on amazon, a BKL 1 pc mount...it looks like a cheesy cantilever mount).

Again, the problem was I couldn't adjust the scope far enough forward, so when shooting in prone I was getting scope shadow. I did extend my stock butt pad to compensate, but then the whole set up had a super long length of pull; and mag changes were harder than they needed to be. I also tried putting both rings aft on my scope so I could move the whole thing forward (as I've seen other people do), but there was no room on the scope body (a short 1-4x body) itself to have two rings aft.

I wish area 419 had extended the top rail out a touch further. Other solutions could be adding a rail extender or using an AR cantilever base, but those bring the height way higher than I'd like and into Frankenstein setup territory, which I'm already in.

In either case, I hope to work out the geometry problems with my set up and get back to the goal of the rifleman patch.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Good for you Peahi2! Sounds like you had a good time and learned a lot. I enjoy the Appleseed shoots and am always amazed at how well they can take a complete novice on day one and get them shooting 3 inch or smaller groups at the end of day two. It’s a great program and a fantastic clinic to introduce people to the shooting sports.

Now that you have one under your belt, you can set your rifle up to fit you you better as you now know what needs to move or adjust. I am using an EGW 11mm rail on my 457 and I’m pretty much maxed out in forward placement of the scope body. Might be able to move the rail forward a quarter inch—might interfere with ejection. Have to try it and see. I also have a few lop spacers but I’m tall so it works out ok for me.

If you attend another Appleseed you will shoot better scores. Try a few different sitting positions. I found my sitting scores really went up with a open position even though I FELT more solid with a tight crossed ankle position. Kneeling is still a disaster though. Dry fire practice helps a lot.

 

[Peahi2]

Thanks for the solid info!!! I'm looking forward to getting to another one!

 

[308pirate]

The AQT target was designed to be shot with metallic sights and bolt action rifles. Doesn't mean you have to use iron sights or a bolt gun, but it means you don't need to use a magnifying scope and a semi auto.

IME, a bolt action rifle with a sporter-type stock and a reflex sight is the perfect weapon for Appleseed.

 

[Mythbuster]

I've never done an Appleseed, but I spent years competing in NRA Highpower Rifle which is all sling position shooting. And I know that has made you a better all around shooter.

 

[308pirate]

@Mythbuster Did you have something for me?

 

[Davo308]

I have a flimsy repro cotton sling from Amazon.

Would it suffice for an appleseed shoot?

 

[Mr. Wolf]

I have a flimsy repro cotton sling from Amazon.

Would it suffice for an appleseed shoot?

The 1.5 inch cotton US GI sling from the Appleseed store is US made, quality product, and supports a good cause.
I went that route for the 6 of us in my family.
YMMV, happy shooting

 

[308pirate]

I have a flimsy repro cotton sling from Amazon.

Would it suffice for an appleseed shoot?

If it's a copy of a US M1 sling, yes it will.

 

[Mythbuster]

The Garand sling has always been my favorite.

 

[Mythbuster]

@Mythbuster Did you have something for me?

I screwed up. I intended to say your experience in high-power has made you a much better all around shooter I am sure. I did smallbore three position and Dewar for years then NRA high-power and CMP. You learn things that make you a good real world shooter

 

[308pirate]

I screwed up. I intended to say your experience in high-power has made you a much better all around shooter I am sure. I did smallbore three position and Dewar for years then NRA high-power and CMP. You learn things that make you a good real world shooter

It's a shame those disciplines are near death.

 

[Peahi2]

Sometimes I run the applseed CoF to stay sharp on sling shooting. Last time I did it back in Nov of 2019 I had a pretty good result.

All of these are at 25 meters on properly scaled targets and under the appleseed par times

Standing
View attachment 7539582

Sitting rapid fire. I cant the shit out of my rifles to the right in sitting and forgot to offset NPA for it.
View attachment 7539583


Prone rapid fire (upper row) and prone slow fire (bottom row). I ran the prone rapid fire strings multiple times.
View attachment 7539589

All done with a 452 with a SIG Romeo5 reflex sight and a US M1 sling
View attachment 7539590

I forgot to say, EXCELLENT shooting! Especially the standing and sitting/kneeling, 1st and 2nd stages. Those two stages kick my ass.

 

[Peahi2]

The 1.5 inch cotton US GI sling from the Appleseed store is US made, quality product, and supports a good cause.
I went that route for the 6 of us in my family.
YMMV, happy shooting

I concur, the Appleseed store USGI sling is good and only $15 and for the other reasons you mentioned.

I like that M1 style 10/22 too.

 

[308pirate]

I forgot to say, EXCELLENT shooting! Especially the standing and sitting/kneeling, 1st and 2nd stages. Those two stages kick my ass.

Thank you

I stray from the Appleseed dogma in a couple of ways.

First, I do not use the traditional standing position for their course of fire. I stand squared to the target and bring the rifle up from low ready like you would with a modern rifle (AR). As soon as the dot (I like a reflex sight for this) hits the black I give it about half a second to stabilize then I break the shot. I also have a lot of isometric tension pulling the rifle into my shoulder with my support hand, which is out on the forearm and not under the magazine. I also do not use a sling in the standing position as it does not provide any support, only the illusion of support.

I've also noticed in pictures and videos that a lot of Appleseed instructors shoot with a severe kink in their support hand's wrist, as if trying to get the support hand to lie as close as possible to 90 degrees to the line of the bore. That is hugely incorrect and absolutely prevents the support side elbow from being placed as far under the rifle as possible. There should be a straight, unbroken line from the support elbow to the fingertips of the support hand.

Nope

Yep

 

[Peahi2]

Thank you

I stray from the Appleseed dogma in a couple of ways.

First, I do not use the traditional standing position for their course of fire. I stand squared to the target and bring the rifle up from low ready like you would with a modern rifle (AR). As soon as the dot (I like a reflex sight for this) hits the black I give it about half a second to stabilize then I break the shot. I also have a lot of isometric tension pulling the rifle into my shoulder with my support hand, which is out on the forearm and not under the magazine. I also do not use a sling in the standing position as it does not provide any support, only the illusion of support.

I've also noticed in pictures and videos that a lot of Appleseed instructors shoot with a severe kink in their support hand's wrist, as if trying to get the support hand to lie as close as possible to 90 degrees to the line of the bore. That is hugely incorrect and absolutely prevents the support side elbow from being placed as far under the rifle as possible. There should be a straight, unbroken line from the support elbow to the fingertips of the support hand.

Nope
View attachment 7618790

View attachment 7618791



Yep
View attachment 7618789

View attachment 7618793

I see what you mean. Great pictures to illustrate.

I had trouble shooting standing bc I could not get locked in. I could have shot better with no sling, pulling my support elbow in tight. I definitely need to work on the geometry of my set up. I'm currently working on my scope position....it needs to go forward somehow ( but I'm maxed out) and I've trying multiple options for a more forward positioned scope.

 

[308pirate]

I see what you mean. Great pictures to illustrate.

I had trouble shooting standing bc I could not get locked in. I could have shot better with no sling, pulling my support elbow in tight. I definitely need to work on the geometry of my set up. I'm currently working on my scope position....it needs to go forward somehow ( but I'm maxed out) and I've trying multiple options for a more forward positioned scope.

You don't need a scope with magnification to do well in Appleseed. Those targets were designed for iron sights. Reflex sights give you the advantages of irons without their focal plane drawbacks

I think magnification is counterproductive to a point because it magnifies your wobble to the point of paralysis for some.

 

[Mythbuster]

You are correct about the paralysis.

 

[Peahi2]

You don't need a scope with magnification to do well in Appleseed. Those targets were designed for iron sights. Reflex sights give you the advantages of irons without their focal plane drawbacks

I think magnification is counterproductive to a point because it magnifies your wobble to the point of paralysis for some.

True...I like shooting iron sights. My prob is my eye sight isn't the greatest these days. I have a 1-4x on it that I had at 3x for the class. In an act of desperation lately, I even mounted an old ta33 acog that was sitting around, for a bit. It was nice to shoot with, but the position is kinda buggy.

 

[Packfan]

I shot an Appleseed many years ago and was happy to see they are still going!

I put together a 10/22 with Tech Sights that convert the 10/22 to an aperture based sighting system (photo below). I went with a 10/22 with the 22 inch barrel to get a longer sight radius. Added a cotton GI sling and a couple of mags and was good to go.

I was shooting service rifle matches pretty regularly then so making Rifleman was doable with this combo. I also shot Rifleman with my AR15 NM service rifle in the afternoon, but I think the 10/22 with Tech Sights is the way to go for most shooters. Bring what you have though!

I am sure the quality of instruction varies, but the concept and practice a new shooter gets from Appleseed is outstanding. I had a great experience and learned a few things. Unfortunately, as others have noted, shooting unsupported from position is a dying practice. Like many others, I left it behind several years ago to pursue other shooting interests.


https://www.tech-sights.com/ruger-products/

 

[Peahi2]

I just realized I didn't update this thread. I was able to obtain the rifleman patch on my 2nd Appleseed clinic. It was an awesome feeling, I got it on the first day...and Thank God. It was so hot that weekend, I even had three coolers with me.

For my second clinic I wanted everything as light as possible, so the bull barreled CZ with chassis stayed in the bag. I used a 10/22 and used the following gear:

-bought the Ruger modular stock, so I could get correct length of pull and cheek height. Its a neat stock, that I still use.
-I had to add an additional cheek rest to get appropriate height: Beartooth cheek raising kit. It was neoprene with interchangeable padding. It worked well.
-Kidd two stage trigger 8oz/8oz. What an amazing trigger. The extended mag release was nice. Probably my favorite trigger in my small stable of rifles.
-Kidd scope base. This was simple. On my cz 457, I literally bought every scope base out there and still needed more forward rail.
-I threw on a homeless TA33 Acog I had laying around. Despite the wonky AR height, it was the right call. 3x power was perfect. I learned the hard way about muscling around a heavy gun last time. The ACOG was my first choice for lightening up the weight of the gun. I had to nearly tape off the whole fiber optic because it was too bright in the summer sun. I know ACOGs are outdated, but damn the glass is good. I was worried about parallax, but it was a non issue for me.
-I bought a bunch of the clear 10/22 magazines on the advice of others on various forums. The clear magazines were helpful for getting the prescribed number of rounds loaded.
-Maglula 10/22 speed loader...wow, a lifesaver. I am buying another bc I recently lost it and I realized how helpful those things are.

Not a "perfect" appleseed setup, but good enough to earn rifleman!

 

[AirGunShawn]

Congrats....
Practice your worst position the most !! That is where you will notice your most improvement.

Keep in mind that they make all sorts of scope mounts and bases. I needed one for my 1945 MAS45 so I designed them
and had them made for me. I could have drilled and tapped the gun but I have never had to do that yet.
A couple of years ago, I wanted an Anschutz rail and Bob at DIP made me a longer rail and they added it to their standard
lineup. It's called the Scout.... It's longer out the back and the front. I tend to run my scope a bit farther back than most people
seem to.
And the turret box on my Trijicon 5-50s take up a lot of space.

You can get over the magnification "paralysis" with practice. I have 50 power but use 40 almost always because of the reticle.
At 40 power, it reads at a 1:1 ratio internally. At different powers, you need to do a little math in your head. It is also labeled
inside of the scope so you need not remember it. It's odd to me that none of my other scopes mention the subtension value
changes with change in magnification. It's a regular SFP scope.