Range Report Applied Ballistics Kestrel; Pro staff support thread

BryanLitz

BryanLitz

Sergeant
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 24, 2008
625
10
Michigan
www.appliedballisticsllc.com
#1
This thread is intended to provide direct support to users of the Applied Ballistics Kestrel units, from the Applied Ballistics and Kestrel staff.

<font size="4">Meet the team</font>
I'll start by introducing Nick Vitalbo. Nick's is the programmer who integrated the AB solver into the kestrel, and developed the PC profile loader software. Nick's background is with Lockheed Martin where he managed the One Shot program (optical wind reading technology) and he's now a highly active consultant in several small arms related fields including; wind measurement, lasers, optics, and ballistic software integration. Suffice it to say, Nick is a highly capable guy who's agreed to engage this forum in support of AB Kestrel users. His handle on here is mil_coder.

Also active on SH is Chris Rance, who is Kestrel's military field consultant. Many of you may already be familiar with Chris, his handle here is C. Rance, and he can address any questions on behalf of Kestrel related to sales, warranty, etc.

Of course I'll also be monitoring the thread as well to address any questions related to ballistics and how to best use the Kestrel for optimal trajectory prediction.

<font size="4">News on the Kestrel</font>
As discussed in a recent thread (http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-bummer-about-kestrel-applied-ballistics.html), the Applied Ballistics Kestrel is capable of software updates. The first new rev is now available for download; it's Kestrel firmware version 4.78 (original was 4.76). It's important to keep in mind that there is nothing wrong with your original Kestrel. The new software has some additional features that were requested by users, which you may or may not care about. Here is the list of changes for the new software rev:
1) A muzzle velocity - temperature table has been added, available via the Muzzle Velocity sub menu.
2) Vertical and horizontal zero offsets been added to correct for point of impact shift at your zero range. This is commonly used to account for suppressor on/suppressor off POI shift.
4) Spin drift can now be deactivated.
5) Coriolis is always enabled, but can be negated by setting latitude and direction of fire to 0.
5) Target speed calculations were previously wrong. They have been corrected.
6) Recommended MV calibration range now corresponds to the range at which the bullet slows to Mach 1.2.
7) Calibration range for DSF now recommended at Mach 1.0

Given the range of possibilities for the Kestrel to communicate (profile management including custom drag modeling and software update), we've compiled a list of instructions for how to do everything. Basically, the steps are simple; you download the appropriate software from online, get your Kestrel connected to a PC either with BlueTooth or the serial cable connection, then the software works with the Kestrel. As you might imagine the process can get challenging especially for less computer savvy users. That's why we compiled this list of instructions with links to various supporting material. Everything you need including software downloads and instructions is on this page and we'll be monitoring this thread for problems and adjusting/adding to the instructions based on user feedback to hone the process.
Here's the instruction page:
http://appliedballisticsllc.com/KestrelUtilities/Instructions2.htm

Feel free to ask questions; we're here to help you get the most out of your Applied Ballistics Kestrels.

Take care,
-Bryan
 
#6
Thanks for the support of a great meter with a great ballistic program. Top notch service as well.
 
#9
Folks - there was an initial mix up on the original post of the software between the Bluetooth and non-Bluetooth versions. When you download the bootloader and the software from the AB web site, please make sure that you select the correct version for your platform.

Link: http://appliedballisticsllc.com/KestrelUtilities/AB4500_4_78.zip

The Bluetooth version should be 166 kB large and the non-Bluetooth version should be 159kB.

01.png

Thanks...
 
#13
Hey guys,

Recently switch to a AB model over the ATRAG and am experiencing an issue. 100 yard zero reads -.05 - 08 elevation. I set my zero to 100 Y, direction of fire is 0 and all other information is correct. George, Bryan and myself have all tired to set it and come up with the same results. The other two AB units, tested the same day, with same info are reading correct. Will the SW update fix this?
 
#14
264Charlie - it is likely that you have a crosswind component entered. What you're seeing is the effect of aerodynamic jump. It's the vertical deflection of a pure crosswind. If you set your wind to zero then you will see no elevation deflection at your zero range.
 
#19
mil_coder said:
264Charlie - it is likely that you have a crosswind component entered. What you're seeing is the effect of aerodynamic jump. It's the vertical deflection of a pure crosswind. If you set your wind to zero then you will see no elevation deflection at your zero range.
Click to expand...

You are correct, If I remove the wind WS1 and WS2 the elation correction returns to zero at 100 yards. Can I disable aerodynamic jump, allowing crosswind values for 5 and 10 MPH and evaluation calculations as the value is zero crosswind?
 
#20
264Charlie - No, we have not allowed for aerodynamic jump to be directly turned off.

To achieve the most accurate results, you'll want to have that enabled and want to have valid wind data entered for wind 1. Aerodynamic jump is calculated off of the wind 1 value. This is especially true when performing calibration as well. For instance, let's say that you are calibrating your muzzle velocity on a 0.308 out to a range of approximately 800 meters in a 10 mph wind from left to right. Your calculated drop is 9.0 mils and your observed drop is 9.1 mils.

In that case, if you do not have any wind entered into the device and you perform your calibration, you would tell the device that he observed drop is actually 9.1 mils and it would lower your muzzle velocity by 10-15 fps depending on your exact setup. Worse yet, if you have a 10 mph wind entered into the device as coming from right to left, then your predicted drop would have been 8.9 mils. You would have entered the observed drop in as 9.1 mils and then changed your muzzle velocity by up to 20-30 fps.

It's quite important to make sure that the wind speed and wind direction are entered in as accurately as possible, especially when performing the muzzle velocity calibration.

To effectively disable aerodynamic jump though, set wind speed 1 equal to 0. You can then set wind speed 2 to whatever you like and aerodynamic jump will effectively be turned off since wind speed 1 was set to zero.
 
#21
I have a couple of questions.

Originally I had Ballistic AE on my phone and that's what I used. It was very accurate and right on the money. I later downloaded Shooter and I noticed the output was off by as much as .5 mil at 940yds (even using the Litz G7 BC). To get Shooter to match my known dope, I had to adjust both the velocity and BC. I know my velocity was accurate as it was measured with a Magnetospeed Chrono multiple times.

How this is relevant is I just received my new AB Kestral and I noticed with the same parameters entered, it is just like Shooter in the fact that the dope is way off. Now I went in and did the calibration which then "bumped" my velocity about 50fps higher although now the dope matches, but where can the difference lie? I've measured the scope height, the bullet length, everything.

Also, I was a little disappointed as I didn't purchase the Bluetooth to save the $100 but then I found out I need to purchase a cable which costs more than the Bluetooth option.
 
#22
Mike, I'd be happy to walk you through it. We've never seen anything greater than 0.1 to 0.2 mils difference even in extreme long range shooting with a good muzzle velocity and BC. There are a couple of things to keep in mind though like the aerodynamic jump (good wind direction and value) that we talked about earlier here and also making sure all of the other inputs are valid. It appears though that you've taken the time to do that and we've tested the Magnetospeeds and found them to be accurate as well.

If you'd be willing to email me at nick.vitalbo [at] appliedballisticsllc [dot] com, I'd be happy to take a look at your inputs and validate the data and also compare them against any other engine to try to determine any discrepancies you may have noticed.
 
#23
264Charlie said:
You are correct, If I remove the wind WS1 and WS2 the elation correction returns to zero at 100 yards. Can I disable aerodynamic jump, allowing crosswind values for 5 and 10 MPH and evaluation calculations as the value is zero crosswind?
Click to expand...

264Charlie,
One thing you can do is zero out the aerodynamic jump at your zero range using the zero height input. So if the Kestrel is calling for 0.05 MIL elevation at your zero range, you can offset that with a zero height of 0.17" (for example). You would have to be careful to get the direction correct (high or low). This would actually be the correct way to do it, considering the physics. If you were perfectly zeroed in a 10 mph crosswind, there *is* an element of vertical deflection present, which in zero wind, would show up as a vertical offset in your POI.
Keep in mind the zero height input was a new feature added in the software update (see OP). If you want to use this feature and your Kestrel was purchased after (approx) 10/27, then you'll probably have to update the software (directions in OP).

Mike,
I'm sure Nick can sort you out with the differences between Shooter/AB Kestrel and Ballistic AE if you discuss it with him. A few common errors to avoid are:
1) mistaking barometric pressure for station pressure. Some ballistics apps present these inputs differently and it's not always obvious which it's using.
2) matching G1 and G7 BC. If the program defaults to G1 input, but you give it a G7 number, this can cause trouble.

Thanks to all for the feedback,
-Bryan
 
#24
What can i say this is the best piece of gear I have bought in a while. Added a friends .338 lapua to mine before our trip west. Entered all his data and come up for 1000 yrds here in michigan our elevation is about 1200 ft. Went to wyoming elevation about 5500 ft and shot at 1000 yrds and 1900 yrds. Spot on is all i have to say. All my rifles i have measured the speed with an Oehler crony and there has been no need to adjust.
 
#26
Mike said:
I have a couple of questions.

Originally I had Ballistic AE on my phone and that's what I used. It was very accurate and right on the money. I later downloaded Shooter and I noticed the output was off by as much as .5 mil at 940yds (even using the Litz G7 BC). To get Shooter to match my known dope, I had to adjust both the velocity and BC. I know my velocity was accurate as it was measured with a Magnetospeed Chrono multiple times.

How this is relevant is I just received my new AB Kestral and I noticed with the same parameters entered, it is just like Shooter in the fact that the dope is way off. Now I went in and did the calibration which then "bumped" my velocity about 50fps higher although now the dope matches, but where can the difference lie? I've measured the scope height, the bullet length, everything.

Also, I was a little disappointed as I didn't purchase the Bluetooth to save the $100 but then I found out I need to purchase a cable which costs more than the Bluetooth option.
Click to expand...
I've had the same problem. Using the 140 vld's, i've had to adjust the g1 bc up to .640 to get my dope. Maybe that's right, maybe not, but I'd be interested in hearing what solution you come up with.
 
#27
Nate O., I ended up following up with Mike via email, but this may be helpful for the group as well so I posted here as well...

---
I ran the numbers this morning for your setup with our windows application, which matches the Kestrels exactly and should match Shooter very well also. I was able to get them to match up with your Ballistic AE drop table that you supplied. Here is a screenshot of the inputs that you gave me in the application and the range card displayed at the bottom.

image.jpg

Here's a quick comparison of the numbers at every 100 yards to what the Windows app is producing for elevation holds.

BALLISTIC AE AB
--------------------------------------------
300 0.7 0.65
400 1.2 1.21
500 1.9 1.85
600 2.6 2.55
700 3.4 3.34
800 4.3 4.22
900 5.3 5.20
1000 6.4 6.30
--------------------------------------------

As you can see, they match up very well when given similar inputs. Four things immediately jumped out to me though.

The first one is that your line of sight angle in Ballistic AE is set to 25 degrees. This line of sight angle is the inclination. Did you really want to set the line of sight angle to 25 degrees? You'd be shooting upward at quite an angle.

The second thing that jumped out at me is the pressure. I don't know the actual station pressure that you are at but 29.92 is sea level. Be sure to use station pressure and not barometric pressure (corrected to sea level).

The last thing is the wind speed / direction. The Kestrel devices account for aerodynamic jump as does the windows application above. For your setup, that is equivalent to nearly 0.15 mils of deflection for a 10 mph crosswind condition. If the crosswind is from the right to left as you have in your input parameters, then this will cause the drop to be approximately 0.15 mils less an so your elevation hold at 1000 yards is 6.15 instead of 6.30. Additionally, if you have it coming from the left to right, it will cause 0.15 mils more drop and at 1000 yards your full elevation hold will be 6.45.

I don't believe Ballistic AE accounts for aerodynamic jump and so in the case that I ran above, I just said there was no wind to make it an apples to apples comparison. There may be one other small difference as well and this is that the Applied Ballistics (Kestrel/Shooter) engine uses variable air density when shooting at high angles. For the line of sight angle that you entered (25 degrees), the round will be traversing a large amount of elevation change and thus a fairly different atmosphere as well. That may also account for some of the very small differences here.

Lastly, for Coriolis to be accurate, I'll need your latitude (I used 40 degrees since that is my latitude) and 270 degrees (directly west). That may also account for some small differences as well - on the order of 0.1 mils or so.

Your post on SH indicated up to 0.5 mils off. I would be very careful to check the inputs and verify that they are correct and perhaps not being entered correctly (like the line of sight angle).

I hope this helps and if things still are not matching up, let me know a way I can get in touch with you and we should be able to talk it through.
---

The same applied for you too Nate - if you have something that is not matching up, please let me know and I'd be more than happy to take a look at your inputs and then verify why there may be differences. I'd be careful adjusting the BC since that has other effects as well (namely windage).

In general though, just make sure all of the inputs are set correctly. I think the most common thing I've seen so far is the aerodynamic jump of all users so far.
 
#28
Compass will not stat calibrated

I also think this is a wonderful device. It seems to work so much better in the field vs. a smart phone. However, I am having a problem with the compass calibration. I complete a successful compass calibration, then go into AB mode. It will capture the target direction for a time or two, then the compass direction bounces all over the place when trying to capture. I go back to calibrate the compass, and it will not calibrate until I remove the batteries. I have replaced the factory lithium batteries with alkaline and changed the battery setting, but this does not help. Any suggestions? Thanks.


UPDATE:

I had placed a call to NK support prior to posting. I had to leave a message in a voice mail box. No later than the completion of the post, I received a call from NK support. They asked for my serial number. My unit is one of about 100 that have a "known defect" in the board. They are sending me another one out today with a return label to return my current unit. WOW!!! Awesome customer service!!!
 
Last edited:
#29
Mac users:

I have an iMac running Mac OS Mavericks (10.9) and an AB Kestrel with BlueTooth.

I was able to successfully update the firmware and use the profile loader within a Windows 7 Pro virtual machine using Parallels Desktop 9. These are the steps I took:


  1. Pair the Kestrel with your Mac
  2. Go to the virtual machine's configuration page (menu bar:Virtual Machine:Configure...)
  3. Select the "Hardware" tab on top
  4. Select the "USB & Bluetooth" on the left
  5. Make sure automatic sharing of Bluetooth devices is checked
  6. Restart virtual machine

Make sure Kestrel is still on. Once the virtual machine has started, inside the virtual machine:


  1. Go to the Control Panel
  2. Select "Devices and Printers"
  3. Select "Add a device" from below the menu bar
  4. It should present you with a Bluetooth device called "Other" -- that's the Kestrel
  5. You will need to pair it with the Kestrel's PIN
  6. A device called K4500-XXXXXX<your-serial-number\><your serial="" number=""> should show up in the Devices and Printers, where XXXXXX is the serial number of your Kestrel</your></your-serial-number\>
  7. On my virtual machine, it was mapped to COM3, that's the serial port you use for the Profile Loader and NK Bootloader

Obviously, if you're running a version of Windows other than Windows 7, the steps may be slightly different. Same if you're using a different version of Parallels Desktop (it changed around version 7 I think).
 
#33
I have a good question why does my elevation read different from day to day standing in the same spot as the day before. I am not talking rifle elevation i am talking feet above see level. And it is only a couple hundred feet but still makes me wonder.
 
#35
bertshortmag said:
I have a good question why does my elevation read different from day to day standing in the same spot as the day before. I am not talking rifle elevation i am talking feet above see level. And it is only a couple hundred feet but still makes me wonder.
Click to expand...

I'd say it is due to your Density Altitude always changing, therefore the elevation is reading for the current air pressure, temp..ect
 
#37
Hi,

I've had mine for a couple of weeks. I really like it.
Used it out to 1151 meters last week.

I have noticed a couple of issues - which I've reported before to support.

One is the profile loader doesn't allow you to have a different click value for each gun defined. I have one in SMOA one in TMOA and one in MILs. It will only upload the latest setting. Hey, dealing with this complexity keeps the Alzheimer's at bay.

I also fell into the trap last week that the wind direction is NOT the magnetic direction, but the direction from the line of fire (DoF). That made me think my compass was crazy.

I also had an issue with not being able to calibrate my compass. I'll have to keep an eye on that to see it doesn't happen again and I don't have a duff unit.

Thanks for the support guys...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
#40
Hi Bryan, I have a 338 lapua and I'm wondering how to correctly calibrate the DSF? My round hits Mach 1.2 at around 2100 yards and Mach 1 at around 2450 yards. I notice there are 6 spots for DSF calibration inputs and was wondering what distances you would suggest I do the 6 calibrations at for best results? Thanks
 
#42
Grizzdude said:
Hi Bryan, I have a 338 lapua and I'm wondering how to correctly calibrate the DSF? My round hits Mach 1.2 at around 2100 yards and Mach 1 at around 2450 yards. I notice there are 6 spots for DSF calibration inputs and was wondering what distances you would suggest I do the 6 calibrations at for best results? Thanks
Click to expand...

PM sent. Call anytime and I can assist you with this question.
 
#43
I have a NV4500 AB Bluetooth model and I am having issues with the compass. It's all over the place with the bearing and it will not let me recalibrate it. It seemed like it was fine when I first got it (calibrated fine) but I did the ab software update and recalibrated the compass right away and now it is acting all screwy. Any help on what I should do would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
 
#44
What type of batteries are you using? Make sure in settings the type of batteries that are being used is selected.

First let's remove the batteries and check for any debris inside the battery compartment.

Second re insert the batteries and remove the propeller. Find a flat, level surface and away from any metal to include rings, watches ect...

Re Calibrate the compass and re install the propeller. Let me know if this fixes it. Also make sure your battery latch is fully closed before calibration. If this doesn't solve it then PM me.

pangelos said:
I have a NV4500 AB Bluetooth model and I am having issues with the compass. It's all over the place with the bearing and it will not let me recalibrate it. It seemed like it was fine when I first got it (calibrated fine) but I did the ab software update and recalibrated the compass right away and now it is acting all screwy. Any help on what I should do would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Click to expand...
 
#45
Thanks Chris. I got it fixed the battery setting was correct for the batteries (lithium) that I had and it still wasn't working. What I did was change the batteries to alkaline ( settings as well) and it let me calibrate it. It showed I had plenty of battery life but maybe the batteries were bad? Anyhow it fixed so thanks again and have a great Christmas.



C. Rance said:
What type of batteries are you using? Make sure in settings the type of batteries that are being used is selected.

First let's remove the batteries and check for any debris inside the battery compartment.

Second re insert the batteries and remove the propeller. Find a flat, level surface and away from any metal to include rings, watches ect...

Re Calibrate the compass and re install the propeller. Let me know if this fixes it. Also make sure your battery latch is fully closed before calibration. If this doesn't solve it then PM me.
Click to expand...
 
#46
Elevation unit changes with range estimation unit change

The rifle setup in the Kestrel 4500 AB has the elevation and windage in tmoa. Range estimation defaults to tmoa. When I change range estimation to USMC MIL, the units for elevation changes to USMC MIL while the windage stays at tmoa. Is there a way to keep elevation units in tmoa while using USMC MIL in range estimation?

Thanks,

S18
 
#47
Announcing another support item for the Kestrel AB:

Using the new Applied Ballistics online calculator you can create and save profiles for transfer to your AB Kestrel. This allows you to run and view your ballistics online, then when you're sure everything's right, send the profile to the kestrel for use in the field. It's a very convenient and seamless way to go from desktop analysis to field practical application.

Details:
Enter all of your rifle/ammo variables on the input page of the online calculator and hit 'calculate'. This will take you to the results page. From there, simply click a button to download the Kestrel profile file to your computer. Next, connect your Kestrel to a PC and use the AB Kestrel Profile loader to transfer the file onto the Kestrel. The transfer process is the same as it is for normal Kestrel file transfers, the only difference is this profile was created using the online ballistics calculator which allows you to preview your solution prior to loading.

As with any issues that arise with the use of these tools, please post to this forum and someone from the Kestrel support staff will assist you.

-Bryan
 
#49
Sierra18 said:
The rifle setup in the Kestrel 4500 AB has the elevation and windage in tmoa. Range estimation defaults to tmoa. When I change range estimation to USMC MIL, the units for elevation changes to USMC MIL while the windage stays at tmoa. Is there a way to keep elevation units in tmoa while using USMC MIL in range estimation?

Thanks,

S18
Click to expand...

Passed this up to the development team. Will keep you posted.
 
#50
Hmmm,

Just had a look at this - seems useful although being able to manipulate the units more easily on an individual field basis would be helpful (I need to work with all sorts of crazy mixtures of Imperial and Metric).

But I just ran a quick check on the profile loader I have, and compared it to the online version and noticed something strange:

I saw that the Profile loader v29 has the 300 gn HPMK bullet length as 1.700" whilst the on-line one has 1.240"
I did a bit more checking, and it seems EVERY bullet in the online version shows a length of 1.240"
Is this just a display issue? - I didn't check it to see if it was generating accurate solutions - mainly because all my other data is in other units (see point 1).

If one removes the length field (i.e. zero) - you get an ad for the Whiz Wheel - if you set it manually, it seems to use it.
But a quick check with various lengths set shows that the output changes - so it looks more serious than that.

Or am I doing something wrong?
 
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