AR-15 223 Proof barrel - thoughts?

[bwo44]

Would love feedback on this:

I am building my SHTF AR-15 (gathering all the parts rn before I have Cobalt Kinetics assemble (I really like their receivers and handguard setup and the fact that they are willing to work with me on a custom setup).

I have a Noveske AR-10 so I like heavy precision, but I don’t want the AR-15 to be DMR like that, more RECCE
I decided “let’s go with something more robust/fancy than their typical Rosco barrels they use (I’m kind of a gucci snob at times…)

So I decided to look at the barrel marketplace: hmm what’s the most expensive barrel I wonder? Well proof carbon fiber barrels came up on Primary Arms as the most expensive
I thought, well those look interesting, but so expensive … oh wait a 14.5” 1:8 twist 223 Wylde Carbon Fiber barrel On Sale for $699??

Now as an American, I am a sucker for sales/discounts like a fly is a sucker for a turd

As a SHTF rifle, I’m fine with spending money if it’s the BEST choice.

I have not seen a lot of Proof Carbon Fiber 223 Wylde barrels reviewed/discussed, so I want y’all’s opinions. I assume I haven’t seen a lot of reviews due to the price point more than any performance issue, but at $700 (instead of $900) it fell into a price point that I could stretch to, if it’s the best

It’s on backorder, so I could cancel and pivot, but it just seems like a great option
Would be running like 73gr eld-m or 55 gr v-max to start from Hornady is my thinking
Need to do more research there

Have a primary arms PLXC 1-8 on backorder as well, will be in a Scalarworks

RECCE is the goal
Defining RECCE as “light, precise, able to do battle” idk if that’s the actual definition

Do you guys think this would be a sick setup? Will this give me a precision weapon capable of battle?

 

[RTH1800]

I have shot 4 Proof CF AR barrels.
Tested extensively. Also tested literally several dozen other top end barrels.

Results.

Fastest barrels I have shot length for length are Proof.

Accuracy in the top class only a few, far heavier barrels out shot them. I had 11.5” to 20”.
All in 5.56.

The only negative I found is that weight savings is not much until you get into 18” and above. The shorter ones are only marginally lighter than steel versions. Not really a negative but you just don’t gain as much.

Now, I’ll add my unsolicited bias.

After 25 years of using 5.56 AR’s in the field on a near daily basis anything less than 18” is just not a great killer. I well understand the appeal of short, suppressed rifles and have a stack of 11.5 “uppers from the best makers. Problem is they simply don’t work.

Your uses and needs may vary.

 

[Tex68w]

14.5" 1:8 twist Proof Carbon converted for LMT shank. Love it.

 

[bwo44]

This is my mock up

 

[Tex68w]

View attachment 8119220
This is my mock up

Very similar to how mine is setup.

LMT 13.25" MRP upper, LMT lower (NFA)
Proof Carbon 1:8 14.5" barrel
AAC Mini4 suppressor
Vortex Razor HD Gen II-E 1-6x

 

[Tex68w]

What did you use to do the mock-up?

 

[bwo44]

I have shot 4 Proof CF AR barrels.
Tested extensively. Also tested literally several dozen other top end barrels.

Results.

Fastest barrels I have shot length for length are Proof.

Accuracy in the top class only a few, far heavier barrels out shot them. I had 11.5” to 20”.
All in 5.56.

The only negative I found is that weight savings is not much until you get into 18” and above. The shorter ones are only marginally lighter than steel versions. Not really a negative but you just don’t gain as much.

Now, I’ll add my unsolicited bias.

After 25 years of using 5.56 AR’s in the field on a near daily basis anything less than 18” is just not a great killer. I well understand the appeal of short, suppressed rifles and have a stack of 11.5 “uppers from the best makers. Problem is they simply don’t work.

Your uses and needs may vary.

Thanks for such a thorough response. Very insightful

What is your thinking for a great killer?

I have a 16” .308 which slaps hard, but is very heavy.. very much a DMR

Weight being part of the reason I wanted to go with a .223 recce, but maybe the biggest reason is that I already have a 223 suppressor with no host lol

 

[bwo44]

Very similar to how mine is setup.

LMT 13.25" MRP upper, LMT lower (NFA)
Proof Carbon 1:8 14.5" barrel
AAC Mini4 suppressor
Vortex Razor HD Gen II-E 1-6x

Very similar indeed
What ammo does yours like?
Any other insights?

Mock up was all on Snapchat actually haha
Cut and paste mash up
I’ve gotten decent with that

 

[Tex68w]

I like 75/77's in a 14.5" but it does well with 62's too. I haven't run 55gr in it yet.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I've seen enough Proof CF barrels die early in high volume shooting scenarios that I wouldn't consider one for a penny over $300.

 

[RTH1800]

My go to daily rifle is an 18” Proof CF 5.56 with 77 gr SMK’s.

 

[RTH1800]

I've seen enough Proof CF barrels die early in high volume shooting scenarios that I wouldn't consider one for a penny over $300.

What is die early? My Mk 12 barrels went 5200-5300 for each of 3 barrels. The 18” Proof CF barrel is only at 1500 rds so I cannot comment on that beyond saying it’s fine so far.

 

[Bevo]

After 25 years of using 5.56 AR’s in the field on a near daily basis anything less than 18” is just not a great killer. I well understand the appeal of short, suppressed rifles and have a stack of 11.5 “uppers from the best makers. Problem is they simply don’t work.

Ummmmm, WTF?

An 11.5" barrel doesn't work for “light, precise, able to do battle?”

SHTF scenarios are not 500+ yards.

 

[RTH1800]

It’s not an accuracy issue.

They simply do not kill consistently well.

Many want to dispute it and you are free to do so as well.

I know what I have seen from firing 20,000 rounds at varmints what works for me and what does not. I tried every bullet from 45-77 grains and none were consistently effective until I got to 16” barrels. 18” barrels are clearly better. After that the changes are incremental.

I have experience and theories about why but I doubt you are interested. Your experience may be far different. I notice people who shoot very few critters seem to learn a great deal from each one.

I don’t “do battle”, I just kill varmints daily.

 

[Bevo]

It’s not an accuracy issue.

They simply do not kill consistently well.

Many want to dispute it and you are free to do so as well.

I know what I have seen from firing 20,000 rounds at varmints what works for me and what does not. I tried every bullet from 45-77 grains and none were consistently effective until I got to 16” barrels. 18” barrels are clearly better. After that the changes are incremental.

I have experience and theories about why but I doubt you are interested. Your experience may be far different. I notice people who shoot very few critters seem to learn a great deal from each one.

I don’t “do battle”, I just kill varmints daily.

Ok, but SHTF isn't about varmints.

The fact that you (nor 99+% of the population) can't effectively hit a 50 lb yote with a short barrel 5.56 at 200+ yds doesn't mean anything when it comes to SHTF.

That pudgy bloke I engage at 300 yds with my 11.5" is going DOWN.

 

[B Man]

Ok, but SHTF isn't about varmints.

The fact that you (nor 99+% of the population) can't effectively hit a 50 lb yote with a short barrel 5.56 at 200+ yds doesn't mean anything when it comes to SHTF.

That pudgy bloke I engage at 300 yds with my 11.5" is going DOWN.

His first line said “not an accuracy issue”. I’m pretty sure he means terminal performance, that’s how I take his comments. I’ve heard and read this comment many others times as well.

 

[bwo44]

A couple days ago I was making an edjucated guess on velocity from the 14.5” with a 73 gr eld-m and looking at a ballistic chart and the velocity is pretty whimpy past 300/350

So I can imagine an 11.5” is whimpy even sooner, like around the 200 mark
Just a guess
That said, fatty bad guy in SHTF scenario would still get poked at 300, but he’d ge worse off if he got hit with a round going 400+ fps faster

I get both sides of the argument

I feel like shooting a big coyote/small deer would be a decent approximation to a human aggressor, but I am not sure
Animals are tougher per pound than us is my guess

Hitting the target and devastating the target are 2 different things

 

[RTH1800]

Ok, but SHTF isn't about varmints.

The fact that you (nor 99+% of the population) can't effectively hit a 50 lb yote with a short barrel 5.56 at 200+ yds doesn't mean anything when it comes to SHTF.

That pudgy bloke I engage at 300 yds with my 11.5" is going DOWN.

I can hit far smaller targets than a coyote at much greater range than 200 yards with my short uppers. They shoot very well. Might work well on live targets so long as bullet expansion is not needed. Wild animals are tough. To get consistent kills expansion is needed. The lower initial velocity results in lower rotational velocity (RPM) thus less bullet jacket stress and little or no expansion. I have found no bullet weight that consistently works at any range from 20 yards to 500 yards in the short barrels. A few kills will be made but failure is never far. I have the data and results in my rifle log book. Iirc initial velocity from my 11.5” barrels for the 77 grain SMK is about 2200 FPS. In my 18” barrels it runs from 2740-2820 for actual Mk 262 issue ammo.

From a longer barrel, even when velocity falls below the MV of the shorter barrels due to range bullets still expand and work well. The RPM is maintained and initial jacket stresses result in expansion.

I have posted my experience, you have posted your theory. The OP can take his pick. I don’t care what he decides. Just sharing what I have learned.

Good luck to you both.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I like proof CF barrels a lot, but they’re not what I’d put on a rifle that might see long strings of fire. The weight benefit also diminishes the shorter you go. For 14.5 I’d just go with one of their SS barrels.

 

[bwo44]

Barrels I am now also considering (price includes headspace bolt):

Noveske 13.7 Infidel ($500)
Craddock Signature 14.7 Bartlein ($650)
V Seven 14.5 Match ($600)

Thoughts?

Main concern on the Proof Carbon Fiber would be long strings of fire
I watched a YouTube video and the heat coming of the carbon fiber during long stings of rapid fiber looked way more substantial than the cheap stainless barrel it was being compared to. Check out the 8:57 mark:

 

[bwo44]

I like proof CF barrels a lot, but they’re not what I’d put on a rifle that might see long strings of fire. The weight benefit also diminishes the shorter you go. For 14.5 I’d just go with one of their SS barrels.

Dude, exactly the conclusion I came to..

See my post following yours, let me know your thoughts if you have any on that

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Just buy a Proof SS for $400ish and be done. They’re phenomenal barrels.

 

[JS8588]

Just buy a Proof SS for $400ish and be done. They’re phenomenal barrels.

Or...https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/franken-recce-first-review-of-proof-button-rifled-16-223w-on-the-way.7170019/

 

[bwo44]

Or...https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/franken-recce-first-review-of-proof-button-rifled-16-223w-on-the-way.7170019/

The OP there got an insane deal on that barrel. Must have been the last unit they had in stock

 

[Chickentoast]

I have a Proof carbon on my AR10 308 and a V Seven (fluted) on my AR15 223, both 16". I would go V Seven - lighter for same performance.

 

[Tex68w]

If a high rate of fire, heavy duty use was the main application for a build then I wouldn't bother with a CF barrel either. The only reason that LMT has the CF barrel was to cut a touch of weight on an already porky rifle and simply to have a fancy touch. I have no intentions of using that rifle in heavy use applications.

 

[Bigjake83]

The OP there got an insane deal on that barrel. Must have been the last unit they had in stock

I think the OP has gotten the message about the PR CF barrels but I'll add this..

For those of you that have seen the work and results I post on here know that I have used a far amount of PR CF barrels.

I have since moved away from using ANY! PR CF barrels or SS, besides a select few i still have hanging around, there are several reasons why but I'm not going into detail at this time.. Even considering the SS PR barrel options there are better deals from Compass Lake using Douglas blanks or Criterion-SS 7.7 that are guaranteed to have clean and precise chambering work

 

[TonyTheTiger]

What is die early? My Mk 12 barrels went 5200-5300 for each of 3 barrels. The 18” Proof CF barrel is only at 1500 rds so I cannot comment on that beyond saying it’s fine so far.

Anything sub 7k is what I'd consider die early. In the case of the guys I know that had them they went 4500-6000 rounds before they were throwing bullets sideways.
In a busy match season that could mean a mid season barrel change, which is unacceptable for me.

 

[RTH1800]

Anything sub 7k is what I'd consider die early. In the case of the guys I know that had them they went 4500-6000 rounds before they were throwing bullets sideways.
In a busy match season that could mean a mid season barrel change, which is unacceptable for me.

Thanks! Appreciate it.

 

[B Man]

I have since moved away from using ANY! PR CF barrels or SS, besides a select few i still have hanging around, there are several reasons why but I'm not going into detail at this time.. Even considering the SS PR barrel options there are better deals from Compass Lake using Douglas blanks or Criterion-SS 7.7 that are guaranteed to have clean and precise clambering work

I love a good clambered barrel! Sorry had to

I will say I have one Proof SS 20” 223 Wylde barrel that is phenomenal, but that is a measure of one no where close to your amount of experience with them. I also have a 16” CLE Tactical profile Douglas 223 Wylde that is a hammer and runs very close to my proof. Hopefully that CLE 6.5 Bart barrel on order will be a hummer like you have experience with too.

OP, why not call CLE or WOA and have a barrel cut to your specs and profile that fit your unique taste. Seems you want a very specific barrel, I’d put it in their hands to give it to you.

 

[Krob95]

Sooooo how’s the accuracy fall off after a mag or two?

 

[bwo44]

Sooooo how’s the accuracy fall off after a mag or two?

From what I gather, it does a good job of maintaining accuracy, but the barrel is like cooking at after a mag or two
Steaming like crazy
Check out the YouTube vid I posted earlier

Stainless barrel looks ordinarily hot, carbon fiber looks like he’s cooking hibachi

That’s why I’m thinking screw the weight savings at this point and leaning Stainless

 

[bwo44]

Honestly you seem naieve. If you want a high volume, fairly accurate durable barrel get a Noveske chrome lined. If you want an accuracy barrel get a steel Wylde chamber from Proof, WOA, CLE. That's really about all there is. ARP used to be an option but they changed ownership and we haven't seen how the new team is. Nitrided and melonited steel barrels should also provide some extended life but I haven't seen any actual data on how much it how consistently. I have an ARP melonited .223 Wylde barrel that I had cut down to 13.7" that is my all-purpose blaster. It shoots 1.25 moa with 55gr soft point $0.07 bullets. Works for me. My accuracy 14.5" is a nitrided Griffen HEDP. It shoots 5x5's at .7moa with 75gr or 77gr bullets. My 20" competition AR is a WOA steel Wylde SPR barrel. It costs $275 and shoots tiny little groups with a broad spectrum load of 23.5gr IMR 8208, 75gr BTHP, and LC brass that I load 1000rds at a time on a 650. I say broad spectrum bc this load hammers in the AR and bolt gun trainer.

Notice I didn't say SHTF or battle rifle bc that's larping bullshit. If you want to do that start watching the Mandalorin shows and play dress up at conventions.

“SHTF”, “gucci”, and “battle rifle” are just heuristics, a colorful way of to say I want to have the capacity to fire high volume in a precise manner and am willing to pay for that potential

Naive is a nice way to describe my knowledge I guess. I do not have a fraction of the understanding of some of the people posting on this website, so that’s why I made the post

Shout out to the people here who talked me through my naiveté

 

[Tex68w]

A string of twenty plus shots on a bolt gun and that same string on a AR/gasser are two very different things. Either way, if you want a solid blaster for classes where you'll be doing heavy rate of fire drills or for three gun or any other gamer/competition then I wouldn't pay the extra for the carbon. But if it's for hunting or just the occasional range session or if you simply want to Gucci it out then there's nothing wrong with them.

 

[Bigjake83]

I love a good clambered barrel! Sorry had to

I will say I have one Proof SS 20” 223 Wylde barrel that is phenomenal, but that is a measure of one no where close to your amount of experience with them. I also have a 16” CLE Tactical profile Douglas 223 Wylde that is a hammer and runs very close to my proof. Hopefully that CLE 6.5 Bart barrel on order will be a hummer like you have experience with too.

OP, why not call CLE or WOA and have a barrel cut to your specs and profile that fit your unique taste. Seems you want a very specific barrel, I’d put it in their hands to give it to you.

 

[bwo44]

Pick one. High volume or precise. The point I was trying to make didn't stick

No it was a good point, looking at 13.7 Noveske CHF as a result of your comment
Wondering how accurate that sucker would be

 

[Exergy]

I'd go with a diff barrel and save some money. As said, really not gaining much with a 14.5 carbon. For a "SHTF" scenario, why not get a chrome lined from Criterion? That'd be my choice.

As for optic, this "Like new" NX8 is the same price. Or by not going with a carbon barrel throw some extra cash towards a better optic.

Like New Nightforce NX8 1-8x24mm F1 .2 MRAD PTL FC-DMX Dark Earth Riflescope w/Capped E/W C663

FREE SHIPPING on Like New Nightforce NX8 1-8x24mm F1 .2 MRAD PTL FC-DMX Dark Earth Riflescope w/Capped E/W C663

www.eurooptic.com

 

[Tex68w]

I'd go with a diff barrel and save some money. As said, really not gaining much with a 14.5 carbon. For a "SHTF" scenario, why not get a chrome lined from Criterion? That'd be my choice.

As for optic, this "Like new" NX8 is the same price. Or by not going with a carbon barrel throw some extra cash towards a better optic.

Like New Nightforce NX8 1-8x24mm F1 .2 MRAD PTL FC-DMX Dark Earth Riflescope w/Capped E/W C663

FREE SHIPPING on Like New Nightforce NX8 1-8x24mm F1 .2 MRAD PTL FC-DMX Dark Earth Riflescope w/Capped E/W C663

www.eurooptic.com

That’s a great price on that NX8.

 

[bwo44]

I'd go with a diff barrel and save some money. As said, really not gaining much with a 14.5 carbon. For a "SHTF" scenario, why not get a chrome lined from Criterion? That'd be my choice.

As for optic, this "Like new" NX8 is the same price. Or by not going with a carbon barrel throw some extra cash towards a better optic.

Like New Nightforce NX8 1-8x24mm F1 .2 MRAD PTL FC-DMX Dark Earth Riflescope w/Capped E/W C663

FREE SHIPPING on Like New Nightforce NX8 1-8x24mm F1 .2 MRAD PTL FC-DMX Dark Earth Riflescope w/Capped E/W C663

www.eurooptic.com

Yeah I’m not going with Proof CF for this particular build at this point

The new PA PLX Compact has received some good reviews
Made in the same Japanese factories as many of the other high end LPVOs

ACSS reticles are sweet too imo
Want a good BDC

I have a 1-10 vortex Gen3 mrad on my more DMR focused 308

If I wanted mrad, think I’d buy the NF you just linked.. good deal indeed

 

[redneckbmxer24]

From what I gather, it does a good job of maintaining accuracy, but the barrel is like cooking at after a mag or two
Steaming like crazy
Check out the YouTube vid I posted earlier

Stainless barrel looks ordinarily hot, carbon fiber looks like he’s cooking hibachi

That’s why I’m thinking screw the weight savings at this point and leaning Stainless

I can oil the fuck out of a steel barrel and make it smoke the same. I've seen people burn it down with CF barrels and they didn't smoke like that. That barrel had shit on it.

 

[bwo44]

I appreciate everyone’s input! Really got me thinking. I’ve made a decision

I spoke with Paul at Craddock Precision and pulled the trigger of this:
(Craddock will cut barrel down to 13.9”)

Cobalt Kinetics is building it and it will ultimately look something like this:

 

[Exergy]

Solid choice.

 

[SuperBoot]

Mild hijack of OP’s thread since it looks like he’s sorted.
@RTH1800 @bigjake83 @reubenski

Curious to hear your thoughts on a 20” Proof barrel, steel or carbon.
I plan to use probably a Steiner 3-18 on it and use it as a general killer-of-4legged-shit less than 50lbs, so weight savings would be cool.
Secondary use would be as a game gun for positional gas gun matches, etc but doubt any strings of fire would be higher than like 40rds in that application.
Will be suppressed w/ an Ultra 7 the majority of the time.
My major concern with the carbon is repeated heat cycles using it on prairie dogs and other high volume critters during the summer, but maybe I’m just psyching myself out there.

 

[Bigjake83]

Mild hijack of OP’s thread since it looks like he’s sorted.
@RTH1800 @bigjake83 @reubenski

Curious to hear your thoughts on a 20” Proof barrel, steel or carbon.
I plan to use probably a Steiner 3-18 on it and use it as a general killer-of-4legged-shit less than 50lbs, so weight savings would be cool.
Secondary use would be as a game gun for positional gas gun matches, etc but doubt any strings of fire would be higher than like 40rds in that application.
Will be suppressed w/ an Ultra 7 the majority of the time.
My major concern with the carbon is repeated heat cycles using it on prairie dogs and other high volume critters during the summer, but maybe I’m just psyching myself out there.

If you can get a deal on a SS PR barrel I'd say go for it, as for the CF... not only no, but fuck no!

Think about it... you can get any premium Barrel blank turned by some of the best hands in the industry for around $650-ish and have it made to oder any way you want it to fit your standards and know with confidence that barrel has been Inspected before it leaves thier door to yours. So why pay $800 on a gamble???

A Little Side Tip: If you're he'll bent on getting a PR barrel buy if from a company with a No Hassle Return Policy, and bore scope it before you even take it out of the plastic wrap.

 

[RTH1800]

I’ll defer to the two more experienced builders.
I only build my daily use rifles. My testing days are far behind me.

Proof CF barrels have worked well for me but I shoot them like bolt guns. Never get them hot etc.

If Jake says some have issues I would not question it at all.

 

[hlee]

Am I the only one that remembers when proof was known around here as “poof?”

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Am I the only one that remembers when proof was known around here as “poof?”

I don't recall that, but people still say Creedmore, Grendal, Bartlin etc. so there's that. Don't get me started on the use of loose when lose is the appropriate choice.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Or....utilize...ugh

Advise/advice, we could go on. You can tell when someone is a high speed operator when they use the word "leverage" whenever possible.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Or "bring to bear"...

Pregnant pause
Level the bubbles
Grease the skids
In time and space...
Macro to micro
Muscle movement
Appetite suppressant
Canxed
Nutt to butt
Toe the line
Row hard
Left of bang
Flash to bang
Hold and squat
Oxygen thief
Hot and heavy
Get after it
Service (service this target)
Uncoil (logistical movements)
Hanging Chad
Time now
Bifurcate
Pop smoke
Stray voltage
Time vampire
Hitting the wavetops
From the 30,000ft view
The eaches
Overarching


I could go on and on. I've got a F'n black belt in this shit

Great, now I've got a headache.

 

[SuperBoot]

Or "bring to bear"...

Damn, no “be who of you”?
Maybe that’s a “Marine SNCO that gets tripped up reading Go Dog Go” sorta thing.

Appreciate the input fellas, steel it is. I’m also loading on a 650, 68 bthp’s and Tac for my .223’s now but might step to 75’s for the longer tube. We’ll see how it goes.