AR-15 help me decide

DroidSniper

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Aug 9, 2011
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I plan on building and AR. It will be an M4 type weapon.

I want a lightish fighting/self defense rifle. I will be using PSA for the lower and upper receiver and most of the parts.

I had a few questions.

what are the pro/cons of a piston driven system vs di
Free float hand guard vs standard.
What are some good iron sight options.

etc..

Looking to keep the build under 1k.

TIA

It's my first build.
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

As a united states infantry marine and honor grad of advanced urban combat school if ur lookin to protect urself inside your home and up to 200 meters get a eo-tec sight,(red dot). Those things are amazing for close quarters combat. Piston system will be cleaner, and free float you can never go wrong but if it's up to 200 meters standard is plenty lethal. Also look into the break down stock and the shorter barrel if it's cqb rifle. If not standard rifle is max effective range is 550 on point target (1 human), and 800 meters on area target (group of ppl) but you can hit point targets at 800+ if good enough.
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

Def. get a free float rail, it cannot hurt and in most cases will improve accuracy... a local gunsmith whom I am very impressed by HATES piston systems with a passion. If you want a reliable rifle personally I would go with DI even though piston will be cleaner. If you go with DI get a chrome or nickel boron bolt carrier the make cleaning easier. Plus if you are trying to stay under 1K that will be tough to do going the piston route. As far as iron sites I know yankee hill machine makes a nice set of spring loaded flip up iron sites. Locally I can buy them for 160 for the front & rear pair
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lcpl Hinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a united states infantry marine and honor grad of advanced urban combat school if ur lookin to protect urself inside your home and up to 200 meters get a eo-tec sight,(red dot). Those things are amazing for close quarters combat. Piston system will be cleaner, and free float you can never go wrong but if it's up to 200 meters standard is plenty lethal. Also look into the break down stock and the shorter barrel if it's cqb rifle. If not standard rifle is max effective range is 550 on point target (1 human), and 800 meters on area target (group of ppl) but you can hit point targets at 800+ if good enough. </div></div>
I did my time in the Corps, it will be a 16 barrel. When I was in we used m16A2 and armored our HMMWV with sand bags driving down MSR Mobile.

I'd love a red dot eventually but initially ill have to make due with the iron sites.

Semper Fi.
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Inzaneriderz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Def. get a free float rail, it cannot hurt and in most cases will improve accuracy... a local gunsmith whom I am very impressed by HATES piston systems with a passion. If you want a reliable rifle personally I would go with DI even though piston will be cleaner. If you go with DI get a chrome or nickel boron bolt carrier the make cleaning easier. Plus if you are trying to stay under 1K that will be tough to do going the piston route. As far as iron sites I know yankee hill machine makes a nice set of spring loaded flip up iron sites. Locally I can buy them for 160 for the front & rear pair </div></div>
What specifically does he not like about them? I hear that all the time but I have never heard an explanation as to way people don't like the piston system.
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

I'm in the middle of a build and torn between running an Adams Arms piston or a nickel boron DI, so I'm interested to read how this thread plays out and what Droid decides on.
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

Well, if you want to keep it light, I'd avoid adding anything that you don't need. I've seen plenty of guys turn what should be nice and nimble carbines into 10lb+ pigs.

As far as the piston system goes, I've played with a few of the add on systems. I think they're really cool. The action stays cool and clean at the expense of a little bit of weight and maybe a bit more recoil. The downside is the added parts.

One of the biggest advantages of the AR platform is the interchangeability of parts. Since there is no standardized piston system, parts are proprietary and not easily attainable. On a side note, I've seen two of the Adam's Arms system lock up tight. The piston just seized up. On one of them, we found a small piece of debris that was blown through the gas system into the piston. Probably came from the cheap ammo. I don't know what it was on the other. The guy had to pack up and leave with the rifle not working because we couldn't figure it out. Of course, these we isolated instances. I've seen others take a beating and keep on running.

For reasons of parts availability, I'd opt for a DI rifle. DI is going to save you a few hundred bucks too.

For the barrel, I'd go with a 16" with mid length gas system, for two reasons. The longer sight radius and longer handguards; which leads me to my choice of handguards.

Unless you absolutely NEED freefloat guards with rails, I'd just opt for something like the Magpul MOE handguards. For one thing, they save weight. More importantly for me, they are more comfortable. Freefloats get hot, they'll make you want to wear gloves while shooting, unless you run some sort of vertical grip and then you're just adding more bulk and weight. You could add rail covers, but again, it just makes it feel more bulky.

If you want to add a light, you can add rail sections to the MOEs.

I don't know about the rear sight. I don't use them much. The last one I bought was made by Troy and they're pretty nice.

Odds are that if you're getting your hardware from PSA the barrel is going to come rigged out for standard handguards. The MOEs are only around $30.

If you decide later that you want the freefloat guards, you can always add them.

You should be able to build a nice rifle for around $800, if that much. I'd dump the rest of the money on mags and ammo. As far as that goes, with your budget, you may be able to squeeze in an Aimpoint PRO, if you forego the piston and freefloat guards. I'd take the Aimpoint over the piston and guards any day.
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TonyAngel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, if you want to keep it light, I'd avoid adding anything that you don't need. I've seen plenty of guys turn what should be nice and nimble carbines into 10lb+ pigs.

As far as the piston system goes, I've played with a few of the add on systems. I think they're really cool. The action stays cool and clean at the expense of a little bit of weight and maybe a bit more recoil. The downside is the added parts.

One of the biggest advantages of the AR platform is the interchangeability of parts. Since there is no standardized piston system, parts are proprietary and not easily attainable. On a side note, I've seen two of the Adam's Arms system lock up tight. The piston just seized up. On one of them, we found a small piece of debris that was blown through the gas system into the piston. Probably came from the cheap ammo. I don't know what it was on the other. The guy had to pack up and leave with the rifle not working because we couldn't figure it out. Of course, these we isolated instances. I've seen others take a beating and keep on running.

For reasons of parts availability, I'd opt for a DI rifle. DI is going to save you a few hundred bucks too.

For the barrel, I'd go with a 16" with mid length gas system, for two reasons. The longer sight radius and longer handguards; which leads me to my choice of handguards.

Unless you absolutely NEED freefloat guards with rails, I'd just opt for something like the Magpul MOE handguards. For one thing, they save weight. More importantly for me, they are more comfortable. Freefloats get hot, they'll make you want to wear gloves while shooting, unless you run some sort of vertical grip and then you're just adding more bulk and weight. You could add rail covers, but again, it just makes it feel more bulky.

If you want to add a light, you can add rail sections to the MOEs.

I don't know about the rear sight. I don't use them much. The last one I bought was made by Troy and they're pretty nice.

Odds are that if you're getting your hardware from PSA the barrel is going to come rigged out for standard handguards. The MOEs are only around $30.

If you decide later that you want the freefloat guards, you can always add them.

You should be able to build a nice rifle for around $800, if that much. I'd dump the rest of the money on mags and ammo. As far as that goes, with your budget, you may be able to squeeze in an Aimpoint PRO, if you forego the piston and freefloat guards. I'd take the Aimpoint over the piston and guards any day. </div></div>

Very well said Tony, your observations in regards to pistons are the same as mine. I think you are right on the money about those systems.

-Former piston system owner
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

I maybe guessing here but I think a lot of the poor opinions of piston driven ARs is left over from the propaganda US AR manufacturers were pushing out when the HK-416 was first coming to market and was getting a lot of US Government interest in purchases. It appears as if they were buying time to catch up and bring their own piston driven products to market. This opinion was only made worse by early problems with US AR piston offerings caused by a rush to get something on the market. A common issue was BC's breaking because of the mechanical linkage to the top of the BC since they were not designed for the angular force of the piston rod at the end of the piston stroke.
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

I sold my piston guns, as the accuracy was not up to my DI's. I expect MOA out of my AR's, but they have custom barrel's.

I will say I am very impressed with the Nickel Boron BCG's...especiall WMD's. I have fired 100 rounds and the BCG just needs to be wiped off. You can do an internal cleaning in minutes if needed, but man are these things slick!
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TonyAngel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, if you want to keep it light, I'd avoid adding anything that you don't need. I've seen plenty of guys turn what should be nice and nimble carbines into 10lb+ pigs. </div></div>

Thanks for the Info I was really looking into the MOE setup. Looks wierd but it seems to have a big following.

I also saw a forward grip that wasnt a 90 degree angle more like a 45. I see them in pics all the time but haven't a clue who makes them. It seems to me to be a more comfortable grip angle. Edit: found it. http://www.amazon.com/Magpul-Industries-...l_mb_hu_m_12_dp
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

So for the moment I am leaning toward the MOE hand guard with a 16" M4 contour barrel with whatever the standard m4 length gas system is (mid?)

Where can I get a Nickel Boron bolt carrier group for not a lot of money?


Aimpoint PRO was the optic i already had in mind. This rifle is my first so I am building it about $125 bucks a time. Have a little girl on the way so I don't have much in the way of disposable income. My current self defense rifle is my modded mini 14. It's just time to grow up and get in the AR game.
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Droid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So for the moment I am leaning toward the MOE hand guard with a 16" M4 contour barrel with whatever the standard m4 length gas system is (mid?)

Where can I get a Nickel Boron bolt carrier group for not a lot of money?


Aimpoint PRO was the optic i already had in mind. This rifle is my first so I am building it about $125 bucks a time. Have a little girl on the way so I don't have much in the way of disposable income. My current self defense rifle is my modded mini 14. It's just time to grow up and get in the AR game. </div></div>

Black Rain Ordnance & Fail Zero carry those bolts. BRO & FZ both sell through distributors. Internet search it.
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

I'll save you a lot of time and money. Forget building it yourself unless you plan on building a lot of them. I build my own, but I can't get what I want, I'm way too picky and the rifles I build would cost me double to buy them that way even if I could.

If you know someone that already has all the shit, go for it I guess, but make sure they know what they are doing and actually have ALL the shit, including the blocks and even the roll pin starting punches. Know all the tricks for laying out tape and such to keep from marring your parts.

Otherwise, do this: LMT makes the Defender 2000. It is a VERY well built lower and it comes with their superb SOPMOD stock. They are very expensive stocks, the only economical way of getting one is to buy the lower. I have two of these lowers myself. I eventually put a Geissele trigger in, but you don't have to right away --or ever. They come with a single stage for around $425, around $500 for their 2 stage. The one stage is fine, I'd use that and replace it with a Geissele if anything, later on.

Then get the LMT upper. They sell an M4 16" or 14.5"; get the 16", especially for your first one. The barrels are well made, chrome lined. They come with the double lined M4 handguards. They are $450. Then you'll need a bolt carrier/bolt assy. $100. So now $(425+450+100)=$975. Under $1000, and you'll have an all mil spec, "military grade" basic M4 rifle. On top of this, it will be an actual LMT rifle, not a parts gun. Go look up and see how much LMT charges for an already built M4.

Then for sights, you can use the excellent LMT iron sight, it is just the regular A2 sight without the carry handle, or even better, an EoTech. That thing is without a doubt the fastest close range optic on Earth. Good to just under 300m like the Aimpoint too. You could get the EoTech first, then get a backup flip sight. I like the KAC 600m regular or micro. The micro is just as good for a lot less; basically the same thing really.

Later you can add the FF rail if you like. I'm a big fan of KAC, I have several of their rails and the URX2 or URX3 is probably the best out there right now, definitely the most versatile. Even their non-FF rail isn't bad, the top locks down tight and doesn't move. Larue also makes a good looking FF rail, a lot like the KAC actually. Heard good about it. Troy is supposed to make a good one too, but I only use the KAC stuff anymore. Costly, but it has never let me down. Worth saving up and doing it right the one time, trust me on this one.

Stick with DI. It was made for it, it works, it keeps it lighter and parts move with the force applied in the correct locations so parts wear the right way and don't warp or break. The small, light DI gas tube with no moving parts is also part of what makes the AR so accurate. It costs a lot less too. Don't mess with it! If you get a gas piston, be prepared to shell out for a well built, factory rifle from someone like POF or maybe an SCAR or some of the others. Something designed or redesigned ground up to use it.

So bottom line is you can try and build a better wheel, but you'll find that is hard on a budget. I'd strongly suggest you didn't build your first AR. You really have no reason to, especially since you just want an M4, and it will cost you more this first time just for the gear, and you are already on a budget. If you get the LMT upper and LMT lower, you can get a GREAT M4 rifle, all milspec, all built right (and then you can see how "built right" looks and feels).

In a few months, you can have it tricked out with the FF rail and EoTech and be golden.

Here is my rifle, it is exactly what I described but it has a 14.5" bbl. and a blind pinned AAC Brakeout and Geissele 3GSD trigger. But the basic rifle underneath is the $975 LMT M4 special. I built some of my others ground up, but not unless I have to. Just start with a good rifle and add the stuff you need later. Good luck.

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Re: AR-15 help me decide

Droid, if I was doing a "budget" build, I wouldn't worry too much about getting a BCG with the Nickel Boron coating. It is nice, but not needed. You are, regardless, going to need to properly lube the rifle to provide for the displacement of accumulated debris within the action. Lube isn't just for lubrication.
 
Re: AR-15 help me decide

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strykervet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll save you a lot of time and money. Forget building it yourself unless you plan on building a lot of them. I build my own, but I can't get what I want, I'm way too picky and the rifles I build would cost me double to buy them that way even if I could.



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Nice rifle. I remember when the PEC2's came out. I looked at the LMT's but like you said complete rifles are outrageous. I do plan on building more AR's. Next will be a 6.8 SPC rifle.