AR-15: magazine-supported prone

[twadsw01]

Question for you experts. When I'm in the prone position with my AR and the magazine is being used for support (tripod: two elbows and magazine form triangle), the bolt does not lock to the rear when the mag runs dry. Magazine used is a Magpul PMAG.

What's the problem? Is this normal?

 

[groovebus]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

It's a bad idea to rest your rifle on the mag anyway. It can cause all kinds of feed problems. It doesn't lock to the rear because the mag is pulled down a little and the bolt catch doesn't engage. I use to tear into my shooters, when I was a Marine Corps range coach, for resting the rifle on the mag.

 

[twadsw01]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

Should it lock to the rear though? I've heard of a lot of people doing it (3-gun competitors, Vickers), and have never heard that it will definitely cause malfunctions.

 

[sinister]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

"Canadian Prone" was developed by Canadian Army M16 shooters at the Canadian Forces Small Arms Championships and eventually migrated down to the states. Canadians use it to great effect at the (US) Armed Forces Skill-at-Arms Meetings/Matches (AFSAM).

What brand is your AR? Not locking to the rear is NOT normal.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

I use to yell at my Marines for resting the mag on the deck and say it would cause malfunctions. Truth be told I have never seen one malfunction caused by either the mag on the deck or holding the mag with the support hand. I recently went to a carbine course where they were preaching resting the mag on the deck for extra support. Its a very stable position, and I have yet to see a malfuction induced because of it. As for not locking the bolt to the rear on an empty mag for you, I would hardly call this a malfunction; just don't let your gun run dry.

 

[christian77]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

Todd Jarrett video showing the mag support method (with elbows to make a "tripod")...see 2:00 into video...

It's a good technique that is stable...what's funny is I typically only have former Marines that are range safeties say anything to me when I qual (I ignore them).

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[Bronco]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

In the 3 gun community it is called "monopoding", and is an accepted way to engage targets at distance when no other means of support is available. With a little practice 8" plates at 400 yd. are not an issue. I've had mags that didn't like it, so try the mags you intend to do this with before match use.

I run a "REDI-MAG" which allows 2 mags to be set down together for an even more stable hold. Hardly a match goes by I don't use this method.

 

[maladat]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: twadsw01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What's the problem? Is this normal?</div></div>

Since the mag isn't straight, resting the rifle on it twists the mag forward. In the magwell, the front of the mag goes up and the back goes down. Apparently the back of the mag is going down enough that the follower isn't engaging the bolt stop when the mag is empty.

 

[jbgleason]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

I was told for years never to rest the mag on the ground through all types of training and never did. I was completely disappointed to have wasted all that effort after going to my first 3 gun match and seeing everyone doing it. I didn't realize the practice came down from Canada but I have seen US MIL guys doing it now as well. At my last course the well known instructor stated that "if that causes a malfunction you have a rifle or mag problem, its not a technique issue." You should definitely try some different mags. If it is consistent, I would have a smith examine your rifles mag catch assembly and lower to see if they are within spec. For real world applications, not sure what you are doing with this gun, I wouldn't want a rifle that failed just because I was putting the mag on the ground/barricade/etc.

 

[Super Bee 950]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

The three time National Champion combat shooter and all Army champion shoots with the magazine on the ground. I have shot thousands of rounds this way as well, and never had a problem. Those of you that say its a bad idea to shoot with the mag in the ground need to go out and shoot more.

As far as the gun not locking to the rear? Sounds like a gun or mag issue.

 

[SuckitTrebek]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Todd Jarrett video showing the mag support method (with elbows to make a "tripod")...see 2:00 into video...

It's a good technique that is stable...what's funny is I typically only have former Marines that are range safeties say anything to me when I qual (I ignore them).

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That's because your a nasty army turd DK.

I think the technique is used by those that can't shoot as a crutch and in fact slows down the skilled shooter that knows what a hasty sling and good position are. Not to mention the malfunctions that it can cause.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

The thought that it will cause malfunctions comes from rifles which have a mag catch that only keeps the mag from falling down, out of the rifle, such as the AK... the AR/M16 holds the mag in a way that doesn't allow significent movement down, up, forward, backward, left, or right...

this is why EVERYONE preached "don't let the mag touch the ground", with most weapons systems it is a bad idea, but with the AR/M16, HK 416, etc... it's perfectly acceptable and will give most people a much more stable firing position.

I have personally fired full mags both semi auto and full auto while kneeling over the rifle with a portion of my weight on the rifle.

 

[paraman1]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think the technique is used by those that can't shoot as a crutch and in fact slows down the skilled shooter that knows what a hasty sling and good position are. Not to mention the malfunctions that it can cause. </div></div>

Thats funny because most if not all of the top 3-gun shooters in the country use this method . I have shot with Bennie Cooley , Dave Neth and Travis Gibson who all use this method and they are all very fine rifleman . I have never shot with Todd Jarrett but I have heard he ain't half bad either .

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think the technique is used by those that can't shoot as a crutch and in fact slows down the skilled shooter that knows what a hasty sling and good position are. Not to mention the malfunctions that it can cause. </div></div>

Thats funny because most if not all of the top 3-gun shooters in the country use this method . I have shot with Bennie Cooley , Dave Neth and Travis Gibson who all use this method and they are all very fine rifleman . I have never shot with Todd Jarrett but I have heard he ain't half bad either .</div></div>

I think he was joking... I hope he was just joking. I too was a Marine that took everything I was told word for word without questioning it or proving those skills or theories. I have evolved since those days.

 

[bunsen27]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bronco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the 3 gun community it is called "monopoding", and is an accepted way to engage targets at distance when no other means of support is available. With a little practice 8" plates at 400 yd. are not an issue. I've had mags that didn't like it, so try the mags you intend to do this with before match use.

I run a "REDI-MAG" which allows 2 mags to be set down together for an even more stable hold. Hardly a match goes by I don't use this method. </div></div>

A lot of the 3gunners I shoot with use the Springer Precision fast mag coupler:

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

Try it with another mag, that will tell you if its the mag or something else (sounds liek the mag).

 

[twadsw01]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

Rifle is a Noveske N4, and I'm using Magpul PMAGs. I'll see if I can borrow a different type of mag from someone at the range next time and give it a try.

Thanks alot for all of the feedback on this.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

I feel that it is absolutely fine to do so long as it doesn't effect the functioning of the weapon. Sounds like either the mag itself is the issue, or possibly the mag catch isn't tight enough. Are you resting it on the ground and also pulling back on the rifle at the same time? This would tilt the bottom of the magazine forward causing the follower to not fully engage the bolt catch, and could be the source of your problems.

As for using it as a technique, to each their own. Some call it a crutch... then what is a bipod or a sling? The rules of the competition dictate what is legal and what is not. If it's allowed and works, then I say go for it.

I too worked the ranges in the Marine Corps, and I would crawl over a recruit when they would try to rest the magazine of the ground. That's because the rules of USMC qualification virtually mirror national match rules, and it's illegal in both.

 

[Grump]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

I always thought the biggest issue was zero shift.

Followed by possible malfunctions. Sounds like we have word that otherwise functional mag/rifle combos can be pushed over the edge that way. I sense a new version of the great "limp wristing" debate...

Followed by, as a distant third concern, increasing wear on the mag and mag catch. The catch is probably up to it, and mags are consumables, right? But see concern #2 for how to tell when the increased wear has gone to far.

Anyone notice a zero shift with this, or it is all covered up by the huge scoring zones in 3-gun competitions? Any time your max-points hit zone is equal to the width of your entire front sight (okay, I'm an optics neanderthal here for fast and furious shooting), I wonder how important our obsession with accuracy really is.

 

[SuckitTrebek]

Re: AR-15: magazine-supported prone

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think the technique is used by those that can't shoot as a crutch and in fact slows down the skilled shooter that knows what a hasty sling and good position are. Not to mention the malfunctions that it can cause. </div></div>

Thats funny because most if not all of the top 3-gun shooters in the country use this method . I have shot with Bennie Cooley , Dave Neth and Travis Gibson who all use this method and they are all very fine rifleman . I have never shot with Todd Jarrett but I have heard he ain't half bad either . </div></div>

Your smart ass comment irritates me.

There is a difference between experienced shooters using a technique that works from years of experience and knowing just how to make it work. And new shooters doing something because they don't know any other way. That's why they end up screwing it up.

Now do yourself a favor and wipe the ball sweat of the "top shooters" off your chin.

You my friend need to use the poo button link at the bottom of the page.