AR-15 Ranking
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Most of the ignorant AR people dont understand the differences, what they do and the history.
KAC has been the cutting edge technology of both small and large frame AR over the last 40 years. Almost all of the modern features are due to their R&D and deployment. Delta Force was litteraly their testers, would get free guns and prototypes to run through their paces, then send back to KAC with feedback. Then they would incorporate changes and start the process over again. The best Combat shooters the world has ever seen by far, helped develop their product lines. It's not some secret. They have probably spend more money in AR R&D than every other AR company combined, in the history of the platform.
Almost every other brand people recommend is using a ton of KAC tech and refinement in their gun. There is so much stuff taken for granted today that didn't just miracle itself into existence.
To the ignorant and uninformed they don't see a difference. That delta between KAC might not be as large as it once was, but that is due the maturity of the platform...there is almost no more room for growth/perfection. But KAC will still keep pushing the envelope trying to make it better. That's why they are the top dog.
Unless you plan to shoot suppressed (which OP isn't) piston guns are generally a solution looking for a problem. And this comes from someone who owns a POF P308. I agree they are great rifles with a very good stock trigger and lots of nice features. And mine shoots 1 MOA. However, it is heavy and not particularly well balanced (front heavy). Honestly, if I was going to go the piston route, I'd look at PWS or maybe an LMT piston (although I have no experience with the latter). And of course, with a piston gun you are looking at proprietary parts.
The only piston gun worth buying is an HK and it has its own set of drawbacks that make it inferior for a civilian over just about any DI option. LMT could be argued but their DI guns are much better even with the over gassing problem you have to address.
POF, LWRC, POF are all low IQ shit brands. I'm amazed they have survived all these years although some have transfered ownership Its's not that they won't run it's that they are expensive, heavier and less reliable than an equivalent quality DI gun.
If you are hell bent on a piston, buy a Non AR. There are a bunch of cool ones out today.
POF, LWRC, POF are all low IQ shit brands. I'm amazed they have survived all these years although some have transfered ownership Its's not that they won't run it's that they are expensive, heavier and less reliable than an equivalent quality DI gun.
If you are hell bent on a piston, buy a Non AR. There are a bunch of cool ones out today.
Thank you for the advice. I really like the super duty but heard that Geissele’s qc has been very poor. Did that change? Or was it even true?
Don't listen to everything you hear morons on this site, the internet or YouTube say. There is more bad info out there than good.
I've heard the same shit about every brand multiple times.
My HK 416 (yes it is real, police auction) is right there with any AR ever. I have not yet spent time with the new HK rifles, I will report back in a couple of weeks after I get a couple of thousand rounds through it.
No it's really not.. and why alot of early adopters of the 416 are going back to Di guns from KAC, LMT, Noveske, Colt Can...ect.
There are significant drawbacks to running a fleet of 416s and outside of some niche situations, for a individual user/civilian a DI gun is a much more reliable, lighter, easy to service/maintain and cheaper tool.
If you are running very high round count/shooting schedule, suppressed, have to run different types of ammo out of a shorty barrel, then it starts to make sense. Remove any one of them and DI becomes the default choice. Those are the words of people like LAV who helped design the 416.
This thread is exactly why I sold my KACs during the covid lockdowns and netted enough to pay for 80% of the shit in my reloading room. Fanboys/snobs who think they can buy performance just perpetuating bullshit.
ARs are not Hattori Hanzo swords... there's not much mystery or next-level craftsmanship going on, more often than not when we pay more we're paying for the name/logo, period. It's a fairly old design at this point that's been figured out for a long time now, and the main ingredients needed to get a good one have more to do with all the holes being drilled straight and not larger than needed, and guys taking the time to learn how they work and look over and check stuff out properly before putting them together. They're "Barbie for men" at this point, and anyone who knows what they're doing can put together an AR for ~$1000 that will crush a KAC or any other pricey off-the-shelf AR out there (regardless of who did the R&D). I've never had broken bolts or been amazed by good ejection patterns because I'm not a joker and know what to look for and what I'm doing when I choose one or put one together.
Arguably, AR-15s are stupid anyway, even the best .223/5.56 77gr ammo is a joke compared to what is available these days, and don't underestimate what a $400 AR with a $200+ Hiperfire can do compared to any Gucci AR out there without being prepared to be humbled. This is one area on the hide where the "go be poor somewhere else" logic doesn't really apply, because if one is actually informed and has knowledge of how guns work more so than how to pull out their credit card they'd know that they don't need to spend ~$80 for an Aimpoint battery cover because it says "KAC" on it.
I understand paying more for a brand name because life is short and nice shit is nice, that's why there's usually a Tudor/Sinn on my wrist instead of a Casio, but TBH, what they cost has nothing to do with anything if I just need to know what time it is. High-end ARs these days are mostly about bragging rights and have more in common with why my wife or your favorite rapper has to have a Coach/Prada/Hermes bag instead of a Jansport/North Face bag, get over it.
ARs are not Hattori Hanzo swords... there's not much mystery or next-level craftsmanship going on, more often than not when we pay more we're paying for the name/logo, period. It's a fairly old design at this point that's been figured out for a long time now, and the main ingredients needed to get a good one have more to do with all the holes being drilled straight and not larger than needed, and guys taking the time to learn how they work and look over and check stuff out properly before putting them together. They're "Barbie for men" at this point, and anyone who knows what they're doing can put together an AR for ~$1000 that will crush a KAC or any other pricey off-the-shelf AR out there (regardless of who did the R&D). I've never had broken bolts or been amazed by good ejection patterns because I'm not a joker and know what to look for and what I'm doing when I choose one or put one together.
Arguably, AR-15s are stupid anyway, even the best .223/5.56 77gr ammo is a joke compared to what is available these days, and don't underestimate what a $400 AR with a $200+ Hiperfire can do compared to any Gucci AR out there without being prepared to be humbled. This is one area on the hide where the "go be poor somewhere else" logic doesn't really apply, because if one is actually informed and has knowledge of how guns work more so than how to pull out their credit card they'd know that they don't need to spend ~$80 for an Aimpoint battery cover because it says "KAC" on it.
I understand paying more for a brand name because life is short and nice shit is nice, that's why there's usually a Tudor/Sinn on my wrist instead of a Casio, but TBH, what they cost has nothing to do with anything if I just need to know what time it is. High-end ARs these days are mostly about bragging rights and have more in common with why my wife or your favorite rapper has to have a Coach/Prada/Hermes bag instead of a Jansport/North Face bag, get over it.
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...and that's where ya lost me.
A lot of cool shit has happened to change the standard these last 20 years or so and pushed the envelope to actually make this a conversation.
Well...at least for me, going from the guns that would swallow gauges at 8-10k rounds to shit that that's lighter, shoots softer and will print 1/2 the group size for 2-3x longer with fewer to no breakages/stoppages is pretty fucking cool....
But I digress. Any word on your ZCO FOV limiters?
The most interesting things to happen to the AR in the last 20 years have involved moving the platform to better-performing rounds like the 300BLK, 6.5 Grendel, 6ARC, etc.
...and since you asked, I think maybe I'm going to sell my ZCO and start buying only TT's and S&Bs so I can talk shit about even more expensive scopes not being as cool as the fanboys say they are when they're not lol.
Appreciate your post. By God’s grace, I’m pretty content with life and I’ll be just as happy with a non-gucci yet quality AR. I come from a third world shit hole, so this life in America itself is a gift. Everything else is just bonus.
Anyways, please provide me some suggestions if you want to. Have a good day!
CK1.0 - I get where you're coming from. An awful lot of people buy an AR and then it sits in their closet gathering dust. Maybe they take it to the range a couple of times a year to do some plinking. That person really doesn't need a $2,000 AR.
However, if you shoot a lot you need something that's more durable and you also appreciate the subtle differences that separate a budget AR from a more expensive one. To use your watch analogy (I'm also into watches), a $100 G-Shock will be more rugged and keep better time than your Sinn or your Tudor. But its also not designed to be passed down to your children. Your Sinn and your Tudor are beautifully crafted time pieces that, with some maintenance, will last for generations. And because of their fit, finish and the craftsmanship that went into making them it presumably gives you pleasure every time you look down at your wrist.
High end AR's at least somewhat similar. I've been shooting AR's for 20+ years. I probably put 5000 rounds through an AR every year. Some people put a shoot a lot more. I notice if a gun has a crappy trigger. I want a Radian ambi safety because I shoot lefty, a gun that rattles because the upper and lower don't really fit together annoys me. I also work hard to improve my accuracy, and, depending on the gun, want to print small groups and be able to take it out to 500 yards. Finally, with something like an LMT having the ability to swap barrels and change calibers is a feature I'm willing to pay extra for and have taken advantage of - I just bought an LMT barrel in 300 BO so now I essentially have two guns in one. So depending on the shooter, your priorities and your budget paying a premium for a "Gucci" AR may make a lot of sense.
However, if you shoot a lot you need something that's more durable and you also appreciate the subtle differences that separate a budget AR from a more expensive one. To use your watch analogy (I'm also into watches), a $100 G-Shock will be more rugged and keep better time than your Sinn or your Tudor. But its also not designed to be passed down to your children. Your Sinn and your Tudor are beautifully crafted time pieces that, with some maintenance, will last for generations. And because of their fit, finish and the craftsmanship that went into making them it presumably gives you pleasure every time you look down at your wrist.
High end AR's at least somewhat similar. I've been shooting AR's for 20+ years. I probably put 5000 rounds through an AR every year. Some people put a shoot a lot more. I notice if a gun has a crappy trigger. I want a Radian ambi safety because I shoot lefty, a gun that rattles because the upper and lower don't really fit together annoys me. I also work hard to improve my accuracy, and, depending on the gun, want to print small groups and be able to take it out to 500 yards. Finally, with something like an LMT having the ability to swap barrels and change calibers is a feature I'm willing to pay extra for and have taken advantage of - I just bought an LMT barrel in 300 BO so now I essentially have two guns in one. So depending on the shooter, your priorities and your budget paying a premium for a "Gucci" AR may make a lot of sense.
These are me specific comments. I really like the HK 416, the LMT piston rifles, the Sig Spear LT, ect. I have two Geissele DI rifles currently but my favorite setup to shoot is the piston rifles (with adjustable gas blocks) and flow through suppressors. I am not going to argue one is more reliable, or easier to repair or anything like that. I like them because I do not like gassy rifles of any sort. The combination of flow through plus adjustable gas plus piston effectively removes the part of a traditional AR that bothers me the most.
I think if you spend $10k on a KAC, the odds that some blue haired homeless pedophile with an Anderson pistol with no shoulder attachment at all, just exposed buffer tube and a grip made unidentifiable by rolls of black electrical tape, 4 different types of ammo in his shitty steel magazine and topped with a $49 Amazon red dot that you have to slap 2 or 3 times to get the light to come on will kill you cleanly in a shtf scenario and take your stuff, are increased exponentially.
The universe loves irony.
The universe loves irony.
ah hoping for a easy answer ? just more muddy water ...that will keep getting churned
but you may start here:
if AR is the question, JP is the answer.
if Piston is the question HK is the answer.
but you may start here:
if AR is the question, JP is the answer.
if Piston is the question HK is the answer.
So, and I'm asking.
If I bought a builder kit (because we all know that the receivers are actually irrelevant, as long as they aren't just complete junk and don't just fall apart)...
What would I stand to lose, other than resale value (if I know I'll never sell it, who cares), buy buying the very best components and assembling my own DI setup for half of what any of these factory rifles in this discussion cost?
This is rhetorical, but I am serious.
If I bought a builder kit (because we all know that the receivers are actually irrelevant, as long as they aren't just complete junk and don't just fall apart)...
What would I stand to lose, other than resale value (if I know I'll never sell it, who cares), buy buying the very best components and assembling my own DI setup for half of what any of these factory rifles in this discussion cost?
This is rhetorical, but I am serious.
Ok, please elaborate. If they don't fail, what else changes based on the receiver set? Sure, the cheap ones rattle, or don't mate up good, and I'm not talking about that. Tell me what a $3k receiver set does that a $500 receiver set doesn't? I'm asking, genuinely curious. I've never owned an alpha AR, and my experience with Kac was the issued m110, and it was fucking trash, so I don't know what you're getting when you spend that kind of money. There must be something or they wouldn't exist.
You don't know what you don't know yet are making declarative statements. You need to stop.
There are significant differences between receivers and always have been. Most aren't machined to tdp, many are machined incorrectly many times requiring smith work to do things like true the face to ensure the barrel can be mounted concentric to the raceway. If this isn't done then the barrel extension will sit crooked when the barrel nut is tightened down and you will have accuracy issues. There are only a couple forge houses but dozens if not hundreds of machine shops out there finishing them. All with different programs, tooling, tolerances, qc ect. There are a bunch of critical dimensions that effect how well the gun runs. A little bind here or off center threads there and you get a sloppy running gun that will have a ton of premature wear and tear. Service life of components will be drastically reduced.
There are manufactures who do it way better than others. They are cheap commodity parts and there is a reason they are so cheap from most places. Certain manufactures go above and beyond and ensure everything is correct before it leaves their shops.....and they are the ones you want to stick with.
We don't need ignorant people like you spewing bullshit. Go educate yourself before you try to speak on it.
I wish I could talk to you face to face. I'd take your teeth for talking like that. Of course you know that, so you'd never say anything crazy like that to a grown man. You're a typical cowardly internet mouth. I sincerely asked a question, as self deprecating as one can be, and you want to insult me? Fuck you you pathetic sack of shit. Now, for anyone who had any doubts what kind of trash you actually were, there it is, on display. When are you coming back to K&M to shoot? I've seen your name posted here before. Let's talk.
Wow, this went south pretty fast.
Let's try to get things back on track.
If resale is not a issue, I've always been a proponent of building your own lower and buying the upper. This is because building a lower is easy. And it's the part of an AR I'm most likely to want to customize. I shoot lefty, so I want an ambi safety. I'm a trigger whore, so it's going to either be a Geissele or a LaRue. I shoot suppressed a lot, so I'm probably going to play with the spring and buffer weight. I happen to like B5 stocks, or maybe a pistol brace it it's going to be a short barreled upper.
And, having put 8-9 lowers together over the years, I've found that if you use decent receivers (Aeroprecision, BCM, even PSA) you're not going to run into a problem. Hell, if I can find a blemished lower I'll use that. None of these lowers have ever failed me (and a couple of thousands and thousands of rounds through them) and there's never really been any slop between the upper and the lower. So, if we are talking about lower receivers, in my experience as long as you don't use some bargain basement stripped receiver (Anderson) you should be ok. Bottom line, if you don't intend to sell your AR down the road there's no reason to pay a huge premium for what is essentially a roll mark.
However, I have never put together an upper and because it's the upper that's going to most impact accuracy and for me, with my limited mechanical ability, I think it's worth paying a premium to have someone else assemble and match all the parts. But I realize many others have pieced together their own uppers with excellent results. So my suggestion to DeathBefore... and anyone else who has some knowledge, rather than sh*tt*ng all over another poster, how about offering some constructive advice? If there is a huge difference between upper receivers, why don't you identify those companies that make quality uppers that will be in spec.? Same for a barrels, hand guards, etc. Hell, I'll even get things started by offering a suggestion with respect to charging handles and BCGs both of which I do have some experience with. If you have the budget Radian, Geissele or BCM charging handles are good to go. And unless you decide you have to have some kind of enhanced BCG there's no reason not to use Toolcraft or Microbest, both of which you can find for under $100 on sale.
Let's try to get things back on track.
If resale is not a issue, I've always been a proponent of building your own lower and buying the upper. This is because building a lower is easy. And it's the part of an AR I'm most likely to want to customize. I shoot lefty, so I want an ambi safety. I'm a trigger whore, so it's going to either be a Geissele or a LaRue. I shoot suppressed a lot, so I'm probably going to play with the spring and buffer weight. I happen to like B5 stocks, or maybe a pistol brace it it's going to be a short barreled upper.
And, having put 8-9 lowers together over the years, I've found that if you use decent receivers (Aeroprecision, BCM, even PSA) you're not going to run into a problem. Hell, if I can find a blemished lower I'll use that. None of these lowers have ever failed me (and a couple of thousands and thousands of rounds through them) and there's never really been any slop between the upper and the lower. So, if we are talking about lower receivers, in my experience as long as you don't use some bargain basement stripped receiver (Anderson) you should be ok. Bottom line, if you don't intend to sell your AR down the road there's no reason to pay a huge premium for what is essentially a roll mark.
However, I have never put together an upper and because it's the upper that's going to most impact accuracy and for me, with my limited mechanical ability, I think it's worth paying a premium to have someone else assemble and match all the parts. But I realize many others have pieced together their own uppers with excellent results. So my suggestion to DeathBefore... and anyone else who has some knowledge, rather than sh*tt*ng all over another poster, how about offering some constructive advice? If there is a huge difference between upper receivers, why don't you identify those companies that make quality uppers that will be in spec.? Same for a barrels, hand guards, etc. Hell, I'll even get things started by offering a suggestion with respect to charging handles and BCGs both of which I do have some experience with. If you have the budget Radian, Geissele or BCM charging handles are good to go. And unless you decide you have to have some kind of enhanced BCG there's no reason not to use Toolcraft or Microbest, both of which you can find for under $100 on sale.
I jumped into this with a if want this then the answer is that kind of response.
Building a complete AR from nothing but parts is actually pretty easy. You do not need a lot of tools and there are plenty of step by step guides out there for you to watch. To me, the thing with the rifle is what is its purpose? What do you want to achieve with it? If you do not care about resale value then I would absolutely decide what I want the rifle to do and then purpose build it out of parts that help achieve the goal.
I have seen dozens of hand made gas guns on this forum that shoot sub moa all day long. There are some truisms it seems like in their construction. A lot of the more accurate rifles have upper receivers that require heat fitting. Someone here may have an actual list but Mega, VLTOR, some iteration of BCM require the upper to be heated in order to seat the barrel. I know that some people will make sure the upper and barrel are perfectly flush (more exacting then milspec). There are several hierarchy on barrels, longest life, most accurate, best barrel for dollar spent, best profile, ect.
You really need to decide what you want it to do and then go from there. Keep in mind that one rifle can kind of do most things okay but maybe not anything great.
I have a dozen ar15's that I assembled. I have a 6arc and a .223 that will both shoot .5moa. I've assembled 3 other 6arcs that all shoot equally well. I have 300blk, 6.8spc, and others. I've also assembled a half dozen ar10's. My rifles will shoot as well or better than anything I've ever seen commercially produced. I buy aero receivers (generally), and get the best parts i can get my hands on, (within reason), and I've never had any issues with reliability or accuracy. I just wanted to hear opinoins on high end rifles vs high quality assembled rifles. I never imagined I'd have someone lose their mind and start talking recklessly because I asked.
After reading the court documents, etc in recent developments here … I don’t think a positive verdict in SC’s Maryland case will affect us. Decided to proceed with an LPR build instead.
If it gets overturned, I’ll just get an ADM UIC Mod-1 or a used LMT quad. Thank you all, for your time and advice.
If it gets overturned, I’ll just get an ADM UIC Mod-1 or a used LMT quad. Thank you all, for your time and advice.
