AR Accuracy or Lack of

[mdmp5]

I recently scoped my 18" Noveske. Before, I had been shooting it with an ACOG or Aimpoint, and I had no issues with the precision. However, in using a 3-18, I cannot seem to consistently break 1 MOA with any ammo, including a full hand load workup. Both 69s and 77s, no consistency. Ive also gone lighter, and the same shit. I'll shoot 4 shots touching, then the 5th will be 1.5 inches out. I will then try that same load the next day, and cannot get within 1.5 inches on all shots. Mount is solid as can be, and nothing else is loose on the gun. So, a few questions:

Is this the best I can expect from a Noveske barrel?
Is this typical for an AR platform?
Do I have a bad barrel?
Do I just not know how to shoot an AR?

I am a sub .25 shooter on a good day with a bolt. Trigger mechanics are very good, attributed to archery. I've tried loading the bipod, not loading, and every combo of position behind the gun.

 

[alfack]

I recently scoped my 18" Noveske. Before, I had been shooting it with an ACOG or Aimpoint, and I had no issues with the precision. However, in using a 3-18, I cannot seem to consistently break 1 MOA with any ammo, including a full hand load workup. Both 69s and 77s, no consistency. Ive also gone lighter, and the same shit. I'll shoot 4 shots touching, then the 5th will be 1.5 inches out. I will then try that same load the next day, and cannot get within 1.5 inches on all shots. Mount is solid as can be, and nothing else is loose on the gun. So, a few questions:

Is this the best I can expect from a Noveske barrel?
Is this typical for an AR platform?
Do I have a bad barrel?
Do I just not know how to shoot an AR?

I am a sub .25 shooter on a good day with a bolt. Trigger mechanics are very good, attributed to archery. I've tried loading the bipod, not loading, and every combo of position behind the gun.

Have you tried some 55 grainers? Might be related to barrel twist rate.

 

[mdmp5]

It's a 1 in 7
Ive tried all the way down to 52. They shoot just as bad as the others at 100

 

[KimberGuy]

No
No
Possibly
Possibly

In my experience, if the barrel is capable, it is easy to get a sub-moa barrel consistently shoot sub-moa with good ammo. Noveske has, or at least had, a good reputation for precision AR barrels. I had one of their SPR rifles several years back and it was a good shooter with Mk262 and IMI 77gr RazorCore. How many rounds down the barrel, and what is your cleaning routine like?

Good shooting ability with a bolt gun does not always equate to good shooting ability with a gas gun. I’ve seen guys that can hammer with their bolt guns shoot piss poor groups with capable gas guns. In my experience, it is usually due to a lack of follow through, or minute changes / lack of consistency in body position.

EDIT: to add onto the body position thing, I’ve seen my zero “wander” for lack of a better term solely due to my body position. It used to drive me crazy, and I would constantly be adjusting my mechanical zero. I’ve learned to minimize and live with it now, and my zero never deviates more than 1/2 moa from POA. I believe it’s due to slight changes in my body position behind the rifle, which affects my follow through. I don’t see this issue behind my bolt guns.

I mention this because you say you stack multiple rounds onto one another but then throw one way out. I can intentionally get my zero to move just by shifting behind the rifle, sometimes over 1”. That could be the culprit.

 

[mdmp5]

I think I may have 1000 thru the barrel over several years. I try to keep my ARs clean because they tend to get gunked and the reliability drops, especially since I shoot suppressed. In case anyone was wondering, it shoots the same loud or quiet

 

[KimberGuy]

I’m assuming it’s a stainless barrel? Do you pull the copper out every time you clean it?

 

[mdmp5]

It’s a stainless yes. I use boretech eliminator with an aluminum jag. I don’t see that much blue on the patch. I’ll do it again later and report back. What do you do when you clean?

 

[KimberGuy]

I use KG1 and KG2. I doubt your barrel cleaning has much to do with your results on paper unless you’re cleaning it every 50 rounds, or every 5000 rounds. Sometimes it takes a few rounds for my stainless guns to settle down and shoot after I’ve pulled copper from them.

Have you tried having someone else shoot the rifle? If they can get good results with factory ammo (FGMM or IMI 77gr SMK would be my starting point) then you’ve got your answer. If it shoots badly for them then maybe it’s time for a call to Noveske (if it’s a factory rifle)

 

[mdmp5]

It is possible it is a cleaning problem because I just realized that when using 1" patches, my cleaning rod isn't spinning. I took some 1 ¾" patches and trimmed them a little and it is a much tighter fit. However, the rod isn't spinning every time for some odd reason, so I might not be getting in the grooves. I'm gonna let it soak for a while and try to pull some more out. In every other one of my rifles, the rod spins

 

[chongoMT]

There is a slim chance that his is related to fouling, stress on the slim. The patch turning or not doesn't do much, in my opinion. What ever quality solvent you are using would do the majority of the work, not the patch. Here is a suggestion, you have lost confidence in your system. You may now be shooting it with a "self fulfilled prophecy" of not performing. This can happen and it is hard to shake, one thing to try would be a mag loaded with 5 rounds and shoot at 5 different targets. Or, try a mag loaded with 7 rounds and repeat on 7 different pasties or clean paper to shoot at.
If the problem continues and/ or can be repeated by another known shooter, then you have more to go on. Could be a gasblock rail contact issue or maybe a handguard barrel nut thing with heat.
My limited experience is that shooting groups, especially from an auto-loader is a mind fuck. We try to average things and simplify it as a metric and measured group. Treat every squeeze of the trigger as its own 1 shot group, independent from every other hole in the paper.

 

[mdmp5]

I actually went into it today thinking I was gonna find a load that worked, because one of the groups I shot yesterday with the same charge did noticeably better than the others. But it was an absolute bomb today, not breaking 1.5 inches. The shots just seem to print so randomly in all directions from center. I need to find a proficient shooter near me but that is a task. Gas block is a switchblock, which is in front of the hand guard.

 

[eklarsen]

If you are getting a flyer every 5 it is either you or heat related. My latest ar was in 6.5CM and it is an absolute tackdriver possible better than a custom bolt rifle I built. I would bet you a tensing up on shot 5 because you so badly want the group to hold, just relax, practice your good form make bugholes.

 

[mdmp5]

What you are saying makes sense, but I had a couple yesterday where I wasn't able to see the impacts so well because of the targets I chose (lots of black ink). I only saw the groups when I went down range.

I know there has been a recent paradigm shift with regards to muzzle threads. Are any of you guys running anything larger than 1/2x28? I heard that smaller diameter threads aren't great when the rifle gets hot.

 

[eklarsen]

I thread all in 5/8 X 24 so my can can be utilized

 

[mdmp5]

That seems to be a good idea

 

[Velocity Chad]

Noveske makes a good barrel, but even the best can have a bad one. How was the barrel to receiver fit when it was assembled? An ar with a good trigger and good barrel should definitely shoot better than what your getting. Maybe a scope issue? You said there were no issues with precision with the acog.

 

[mdmp5]

I should have rephrased. I wasn't able to discern precision issues with the ACOG because it isn't a precision optic. For example, I could hit a silhouette at 300 rapid fire with the ACOG, but shooting groups at 100 is not something I relied on the ACOG to do. I do not think it is a scope issue because I use this scope in the same Seekins mount on my 22 with no issues at all.

I received the barrel as a fully assembled upper, and have never taken it apart.

I have seen a bad barrel before on 2 different rifles. i had one on a 700 police in 300 WM that was so bad, it would shoot 5" groups at 200. Changed the barrel to a Bartlein and it was a one hole gun. I am getting the same kind off feeling with this. This is the 2nd AR that has been shitting out on me. I ripped the barrel off the other one because the groups were even worse. I won't know a true diagnosis until I shoot a true lights out barrel. If the groups are still bad, then I need to learn how to shoot an AR, which after all these years, I thought I knew how to do

 

[8up]

Lots of variables to consider for the OP. From Acog to a 3x18 scope is a factor to shooting precision. Is the buttstock giving you a consistent cheek weld placement? Asuming you are doing all the fundamentals correctly for grouping to check accuracy, you have to be spot on. Semi precision takes practice.

I mainly shoot large frame ar platforms, when I get behind a small frame, 5.56, it takes me a moment to adjust to the small frame, light recoil. I have a noveske 16" double chromed lined barrel on a Frakenturd assembled carbine. I shoot m193 out of it, crappy accuracy. I pull the current 55 fmj bullet from it, put on a Nosler 55 BT, and it's tight grouping. Hope this helps.

 

[natdscott]

I may not be popular for this, but I think you need to get somebody on the gun that is really good with an AR.

Oddly enough, they take a different hand than most anything else. I can shoot a lot of things pretty well, and I've been shooting a long time, but it took me a bit to learn the AR.

There are still days when the little aluminum bitch makes me crazy.

-Nate

 

[mdmp5]

What is the main difference? Is it the follow through? Do you see better results when you load the bipod forward into something?

 

[mdmp5]

I think some of the precision issues are related to my shooting, but what I mean by that is shooting 1” when I should be getting ¼”. Some of these groups are so out of control, I cannot attribute that to me. This is what I’ve been seeing in a 69 smk varget workup

 

[natdscott]

I don't shoot with a bipod worth a shit.

I am either sling prone, or off a sandbag/ruck, preferably with a rear bag.

Really, I think it is about tensions with the AR. The whole damned thing is so flimsy and twisty that EVERYTHING vibrates when you fire it, and because it is all metal, there's very little to dampen any of it like you have with a conventionally stocked rifle.

The trick to shooting it well is to execute all other fundamentals, but ALSO to do so with exactly the same tensions and weights affecting the rifle. The weight of your head on the gun, amount of pull of your right bicep on the rifle, position of the rifle on the bags, your shoulder contact and push on the buttplate, how much you are or are not twisting the grip...etc. etc.

All of that, and more, is why I think the Accu-wedge can matter for the AR, particularly for sling shooters: it has NOTHING to do with the rifle, per se, but it DOES make for a little more consistency in position of the shooter, because it eliminates some of the play between receivers that affects position.

 

[natdscott]

Oh, and I will say that AR's can be just as finicky about bullet choice as anything else.

Try a Hornady 75 BTHP, a Berger 73 BTHP, and a Sierra 69 or 77SMK (NOT the TMKs). If one of those will not shoot with Varget, you could have a rifle issue.

Make sure the gas tube is floaty-like. The Carrier, less Bolt, needs to shut on the tube, and not be under tension. When shut, the tube should still be able to move a little in it's star hole in the receiver...and that hole has to be kept clean-ish as well.

But take that damned bipod off, fill a trashbag with sand or dirt, and shoot off of that with a rear baggy of rice-in-sock. It's more better, I promise. Get SOME position built that lets you lay the entire weight of your head on the stock, and puts you solidly behind the rifle, and feel free to pull the rifle into your shoulder a little.

-Nate

 

[mdmp5]

I’ll try losing the bipod next session. I do notice that the rifle tends to recoil my hand into a slightly pronated position despite the low recoil. I just actually thought of something. The lock time of a semi is much higher than a bolt. I’m probably moving mid shot and cannot tell

 

[mdmp5]

Are there any videos on here of good semi shooting fundamentals?

 

[natdscott]

Dunno, duncare. The issue is that videos all look about the same.

What it is about is feel. Unfortunately, that's hard to convey on the internet. What a guy needs is a coach, and more shooting time to try to understand and implement what said coach says.

 

[TimK]

You are not alone being frustrated with accuracy and AR's. I have a very high end precision AR, and it's giving me fits at the moment. As another poster mentioned, extremely subtle variations in position (so subtle I can't detect them) cause my zero to wander around about 1/2".

Do check for carbon build up on the crown. Also look to be sure there is nothing touching the barrel inside the handguard. Remember it might not be touching until you load up the bipod.

Do you get a clean and consistent cheek weld? If I'm not using a stock like a Magpul PRS or similar and I'm having to float my fat head, I can count on poor accuracy.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

I recently scoped my 18" Noveske. Before, I had been shooting it with an ACOG or Aimpoint, and I had no issues with the precision. However, in using a 3-18, I cannot seem to consistently break 1 MOA with any ammo, including a full hand load workup. Both 69s and 77s, no consistency. Ive also gone lighter, and the same shit. I'll shoot 4 shots touching, then the 5th will be 1.5 inches out. I will then try that same load the next day, and cannot get within 1.5 inches on all shots. Mount is solid as can be, and nothing else is loose on the gun. So, a few questions:

Is this the best I can expect from a Noveske barrel?
Is this typical for an AR platform?
Do I have a bad barrel?
Do I just not know how to shoot an AR?

I am a sub .25 shooter on a good day with a bolt. Trigger mechanics are very good, attributed to archery. I've tried loading the bipod, not loading, and every combo of position behind the gun.

You have me seriously confused. You shot the same rifle before with an ACOG or Aimpoint and it shot "precision"? What does that mean?

Was it ever sub-moa with you shooting it? How many rounds through the barrel?

Have you used the scope on a different rifle to verify it's good? What brand? What brand of mount?

Try dryfiring off something steady and note if the crosshairs jump when the hammer falls that they go to the same location on the target each time.

I would definitely shoot off sandbags or something other than the bipod as you say you will try. I just read today about someone having 4 inches of horizontal at 100 because their scope base was loose. If you haven't reverified torque settings, you just think it's tight IMO.

 

[mdmp5]

You have me seriously confused. You shot the same rifle before with an ACOG or Aimpoint and it shot "precision"? What does that mean?

Was it ever sub-moa with you shooting it? How many rounds through the barrel?

Have you used the scope on a different rifle to verify it's good? What brand? What brand of mount?

Try dryfiring off something steady and note if the crosshairs jump when the hammer falls that they go to the same location on the target each time.

I would definitely shoot off sandbags or something other than the bipod as you say you will try. I just read today about someone having 4 inches of horizontal at 100 because their scope base was loose. If you haven't reverified torque settings, you just think it's tight IMO.

I should have worded it a little differently. I meant that I never was able to discern any precision issues because with the 1x, 3x or 4x mag, I was shooting distances between 100 and 300 yds, and I was simply hitting the target, not shooting groups. It seemed that the rifle was shooting well because of that.

I will definitely shoot off something other than the bipod. I do believe my problem definitely is accentuated by the longer lock time as I stated above. If the barrel is a semi turd, my fundamentals aren't helping by any means. Time for some real practice.

As far as the mount, the first thing I do before I leave the house or the night before is check my torque on the rail and the rings. This particular mount is a Seekins MXM mount, which is a rock solid mount. I am so confident in this setup that I don't even consider there is any movement.

 

[mdmp5]

Oh, and the scope is a Sig Tango 6 3-18x44. Tried it on another rifle and it seems to work fine. Returns to zero and tracks. Barrel still has some time left in it. I don't think I have much more than 1k thru it if I had to guess.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Sounds like it's you or the barrel then. Sort it out

 

[mdmp5]

Yeah I'm on it trust me

 

[mdmp5]

So after rebarreling another AR and having my upper tested by Noveske, it looks like I was having issues with my muzzle devices. Guns shoot very tight bare muzzle or with a direct thread can, but the flash hiders seem to be hurting the accuracy. Already talked with the guys, and we are gonna try to fix it together.

 

[SLG]

I have had issues with muzzle devices before. That can be a real pain.

I've also had Noveske barrels that just weren't very precise. That's a pain too. Last time I talked to them, they really didn't want to commit to an accuracy standard for their guns.

Sounds like they are on it though.