You have to hold the AR to control it. You can't really get away with not wrapping your thumb around the pistol grip like we do with bolt guns.
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AR Accuracy: What to Expect and How to Acheive it?
- Thread starter Bully
- Start date
You have to hold the AR to control it. You can't really get away with not wrapping your thumb around the pistol grip like we do with bolt guns.
i disagree, although i am nobody and shoot a 14lb 7.62x51mm piston gun and not an AR-15.
there is no need to steer the rifle and long as you can pull it firmly into your body (bipod and bag).
i see many more experienced shooters that also use a neutral thumb position or thumbrest like me, although i am not saying it is the only way to run it.
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I'm jumping in here late to the conversation but it all depends on what you want to happen and what you really like doing in the way of shooting.
For example some people love to shoot tiny bug hole groups from a bench while others prefer a more practical application for the platform such as being able to hit a 6 inch plate at 300 or 400 yards.
At the end of the day it will come down to your barrel and your ammo. I have a regular old 16 inch AR that I shot a 10 shot group at 100 yards where all the outside edges and the entire group could be completely covered with a dime (.7 inches). I did it with a 1-4 optic too.
Don't think that you always need to shoot 55 grain rounds. My gun really likes 69 grain SMK bullets. You need good brass, powder, bullets etc. Standard stuff.
I did chase groups for a while there but over time I started being more interested in practical accuracy. Shooting from a bipod on uneven ground, shooting from a fence post, from behind a tree or whatever (more like PRS type stuff) to me has been a lot more rewarding. Connecting with a 6 inch plate with a 4x optic at 300 yards is still technically 2 MOA but to me it's more fun.
I personally started being inclined to think that just chasing groups is awesome and all but the latter is a lot more practical use of the platform.
For example some people love to shoot tiny bug hole groups from a bench while others prefer a more practical application for the platform such as being able to hit a 6 inch plate at 300 or 400 yards.
At the end of the day it will come down to your barrel and your ammo. I have a regular old 16 inch AR that I shot a 10 shot group at 100 yards where all the outside edges and the entire group could be completely covered with a dime (.7 inches). I did it with a 1-4 optic too.
Don't think that you always need to shoot 55 grain rounds. My gun really likes 69 grain SMK bullets. You need good brass, powder, bullets etc. Standard stuff.
I did chase groups for a while there but over time I started being more interested in practical accuracy. Shooting from a bipod on uneven ground, shooting from a fence post, from behind a tree or whatever (more like PRS type stuff) to me has been a lot more rewarding. Connecting with a 6 inch plate with a 4x optic at 300 yards is still technically 2 MOA but to me it's more fun.
I personally started being inclined to think that just chasing groups is awesome and all but the latter is a lot more practical use of the platform.
We will have to agree to disagree. Bolt guns don't have massive reciprocating bolt carrier groups moving back and forth. Yeah, you can fire one with a neutral thumb position like a bolt gun, but it's poor form.
i must admit that the thumb rest might be a cheater, but ime, if i don't control the position of the rifle with my body and not my grip, i cannot expect to have consistent results with all that movement. i do this by using a firm hold, not unlike the pressure i would use with a shotgun. again i am nobody and just offering my own experience, and even i can shoot decent groups by now.
I used to think the same, but over the years I have changed my mind on this. I had someone video me both ways and found a flaw that was addressed by moving my thumb out of the way. On follow up shots it made most difference. It also made keeping the rifle on target to watch the impacts easier. Just me, it took a long time before I was comfortable with it.
I might have missed it but don't recall anyone mentioning squaring the receiver before installing the barrel.
I have read this thread with great interest as I shoot my piston guns and quality bolt guns an equal amount of time. I would consider my skills intermediate. I have been shooting the bolt guns without a lot of pressure and can easily achieve sub MOA, while to get anywhere near the accuracy with my POF's and LWRCI I need to hold very tight, and pull it in hard with both my hands. The POF's all have the upgraded POF triggers and the better shooters at my gunclub easily achieve MOA or better so I know they are capable - the LWRC is a REPR II with the proof barrel and the geisselle trigger so I should be able to get it to perform.
Shooting both guns completely differently seems like it is holding me back - would the advanced shooters that shoot both types recommend I start holding the bolt guns as tight as the piston's, I have tried it and it seems to work, but like golf, certain bad habits can provide great shots - but will ultimately limit your progression. Opinions please
Shooting both guns completely differently seems like it is holding me back - would the advanced shooters that shoot both types recommend I start holding the bolt guns as tight as the piston's, I have tried it and it seems to work, but like golf, certain bad habits can provide great shots - but will ultimately limit your progression. Opinions please
I'm absolutely not qualified to talk about this, other than through trying out what works for me-
My groups are better, ( this is both shooting my MWS and my piston POF, both with LMT DMR stocks ) , and my rifle returns to target quicker with less movement if I do not wrap my thumb around the grip.
I rationalize like this- with my thumb wrapped around, the web of my firing hand is the first linear "hard stop" as the rifle recoils back. Now, this may be indicative of something wrong with my firing hand position relative to my body, but either prone, or from the bench, there are always angles in my hand, wrist, forearm and elbow, something that would deflect the rifle away from moving straight back/up. I can only align them so much in one plane.
With my thumb neutral, my shoulder is the first "hard stop". The recoil is spread out over a greater distance, over a fractionally longer period of time and in a straighter line from muzzle to my shoulder.
I use my support hand to pull the stock tight into my shoulder, then "lean" slightly on the tripod ( GG&G ).
Again, this is what works for me and I don't recommend it for anyone else.
this makes some sense as well.
marc taylor basically echos what i am saying here, but i don't remember seeing it before.
Mechanics of the Firing Hand
Sniper's Hide, Precision Rifle Instruction, Training Shooters, Acccuracy International Rifle Bipod, Fundamentals of Marksmanship Mechanics
www.snipershide.com
Everything that I have experienced, as well as my basic understanding of marksmanship has lead me to question a TON of what people are saying is the cause of semi-autos being hard to shoot in comparison to bolt action rifles.
Assuming you have a very quality and well built “precision” semi-auto, the reciprocating mass, moving parts, lock time, and follow through have nothing to do with individual shot performance. As long as you have established proper NPA and press the trigger perfectly along the axis of the rifle without inducing axial stress, then the shot will go where it is supposed to.
From what I have experienced, proper follow through and shooting past the shot will help you do do everything correct while the shot actually breaks, but the follow through after ignition of the round will not make the shot more accurate. And by the time the bolt even begins to unlock, the round is completely outside of the barrel and won’t be influenced by the action.
A lot of technique can help with follow up shots, and reducing the amount of time it takes to shoot multiple correct shots, but a lot of the stuff that is talked about doesn’t seem to actually effect the shot.
I am not a physicist, or a firearms engineer, nor am I an accomplished shooter, but I did stay at a Best Western, and this seems to make sense in my head.
Am I wrong, or completely off base here?
Assuming you have a very quality and well built “precision” semi-auto, the reciprocating mass, moving parts, lock time, and follow through have nothing to do with individual shot performance. As long as you have established proper NPA and press the trigger perfectly along the axis of the rifle without inducing axial stress, then the shot will go where it is supposed to.
From what I have experienced, proper follow through and shooting past the shot will help you do do everything correct while the shot actually breaks, but the follow through after ignition of the round will not make the shot more accurate. And by the time the bolt even begins to unlock, the round is completely outside of the barrel and won’t be influenced by the action.
A lot of technique can help with follow up shots, and reducing the amount of time it takes to shoot multiple correct shots, but a lot of the stuff that is talked about doesn’t seem to actually effect the shot.
I am not a physicist, or a firearms engineer, nor am I an accomplished shooter, but I did stay at a Best Western, and this seems to make sense in my head.
Am I wrong, or completely off base here?
no, i think you are right about it being more important for spotting your shots and quick follow up shots (sort of why your might run a gas gun).
but again this is from a practical shooting standpoint and not a competitive one.
that said, there is a lot more going on than in a bolt gun where the only pre-ingnition movement inside the rifle is the sear disengaging and the firing pin shooting forward. in my rifle, there is visible "hammer shake" when it hits the firing pin.
To me that would be one of two things:
1) you aren’t pressing the trigger perfectly in line and straight to the rear, which is causing off axis pressure to be released into the frame of the gun when the seat of the trigger disengages.
2) Your trigger is not set perfectly in line with the lower, and pressing the trigger with perfect alignment to the lower loads pressure unevenly into the receiver.
If everything is lined up perfectly then there should be zero shaking of the gun when dry fired.
I'm kinda in the same camp- the bullet is on it's way before the various components of mass start moving around, so the bullet is going to hit where it's aimed at the moment the trigger is pulled ( assuming good, fundamental trigger control ), everything else I do is about keeping the rifle from wriggling about inconsistently in recoil, so the following shot can be taken with me having to minimally realign/reset anything.
i don't believe i have any issues with trigger control as i have competed with a da/sa handgun for decades
i can shoot sub moa groups with it even though the only other centerfire rifle i own is my dad's winchester model 88.
again i am not trying to tell anyone what they should do, i am just pointing out that i do a lot of dry fire practice (force of habit again from decades of dry fire training with a 10lb trigger), and i can see the target shake - not when i pull the 2-stage geissele trigger, but when the hammer of the scar 20s strikes. it is a very minute movement, but just demonstrates that there is more going on.
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I'm trying to picture this- I have my rifle here next to me with a 3-18 scope at full mag and I'm struggling to see anything happen when the hammer falls
i actually just dry fired a few times again just to confirm it, and yes.
the hammer and spring is pretty heavy and gives a good whack. i can see it clearly at 18x each time.
edit, i don't know if it matters, but the bipod is sitting on carpet, so it isn't going to resist any tiny movement,
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Rifle is built and I've been shooting it. I have shot for group a few times and I have to say, I think she's gonna be a shooter.
And yes, it's seems that a firmer hold than on a bolt is necessary for repeatability. I'm still working out just how firm the hold is, but overall snugging her up in to my shoulder pocket seems to help keep her hitting where I point.
I did swap the glass to the 8-32 NXS I have.
And yes, it's seems that a firmer hold than on a bolt is necessary for repeatability. I'm still working out just how firm the hold is, but overall snugging her up in to my shoulder pocket seems to help keep her hitting where I point.
I did swap the glass to the 8-32 NXS I have.
I have a lightweight precision .223 AR 15 and if I don't wrap my thumb and use a slow squeeze it bump fires from the shoulder. You must hold the grip and have good trigger follow through if you don't have a 10+ pound semi auto. Free recoil and no thumb wrap = bump fire.
I've not, (yet), experienced this- my support hand is pulling the stock quite firmly into my shoulder, the rifle isn't at all "loose"
I have a pair of 6mm Creedmoors. The bolt gun is old school cool, a Badger M2013 action in a Sentinel stock with a 28” Bartlein barrel. The gas gun is a Mega Maten, JP SCS, JP lightweight carrier with LMT bolt and a 23”ish Bartlein with rifle +2” gas system- the barrel was a takeoff from the bolt gun when I switched them both from 6SLR to 6CM.
Both were chambered by me with the same reamer. Accuracy is almost identical between them, they’re both scary accurate. The bolt gun is easier to shoot well, but the gas gun is more fun.
The Loctite 620 will expand to fill a larger space, up to 0.015 I think. It probably doesn't matter in this case, since even fairly loose fit barrels only have a couple of thousands gap.
It doesn’t expand, it’s just able to cure in a larger gap unlike the red and blue grades that will not cure in much of a gap.
The main reason to choose 620 specifically is for high heat applications; not necessary for a barrel installation but if you have it for other applications it works great. Personally I use 680 which is the one that cures in the largest air gap and also works great for bedding scope based on bolt guns among other uses.
I think you’ve got something goofy going on there, either in your technique or an unsafe trigger. It’s definitely not normal for any AR.
I’ve got several light weight ARs (like a 5 lb 300 Blk that definitely moves back a bit more than any 5.56) with nice crisp triggers on all and they absolutely do not bump fire when shot that way.
The other guy’s comment back in February about needing to wrap your thumb around the grip is pretty bad advice as well IMO. For precision I think most teach not wrapping your thumb around and it works better IMO to let the recoil drive straight back into your shoulder instead of trying to control and steer the grip.
Yes, 680 is the preferred material; better yet is thermo-fit if your parts allow it.
MM
I like bolt guns too. You can’t assemble a super accurate bolt gun with a few hand tools and a workbench like you can with an AR though. A good barrel and trigger will set you up in the accuracy department. Anything else you add is lagniappe and make it that much better.
When using Loctite 680 do you just apply it around the diameter of barrel and install it normally? Do you let it dry before installing the barrel nut? What torque level do you recommend for the barrel nut?
Just apply and install; it doesn’t really dry on it’s own. Something to understand about most Loctite adhesives like this (talking about the liquid thread lockers, bearing retainers, etc) is that they are anaerobic, meaning they cure in the absence of air (oxygen really). You’ll notice when using them that any excess squeezed out of a joint won’t really dry, it just turns into a sticky mess and doesn’t cure.
As for the barrel nut torque; if you have squared the receiver face as I always do, IME the torque doesn’t make much difference as long as it’s somewhere between about 30-80 ft-lb. If you haven’t squared the receiver it might matter because you’re compressing one part of the receiver more or less depending on the torque and changing the contact with the rest.
Just shoot for somewhere between 45-60 foot pounds on the barrel nut, I generally put mine at 50
As always you gotta find what your rifle likes. This is a test I did with a 20" AR I built for PRS style comps. Ballistic Advantage barrel, Timmney trigger, Superlative Arms block, and APA brake, nothing else special. It shoots dimes with the right ammo. BTW, most of the best groups came from .223 ammo, while the barrel is chambered in 5.56...make that of it what you will. Also note that the 50g AE grey tip varmint ammo did great, regardless of the 1:7 barrel.
Do your own testing.
Do your own testing.
Attachments
There's no dimensional differences in 223 /556 ammo, assuming a 2.250" mag length max OAL constraint.
The difference will be lower pressure/lower velocity with 223, unless you get some abnormally hot 223 stuff.
So in your case, lower velocity, lower pressure ammo shot best; that's not uncommon.
Obviously the chambers are different for 223/Wylde/5.56.................................
MM
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There is several actions out there (Terminuis Zeus) that you can screw barrels onto hand right and then drop into a chassis. Even easier than an AR actually.
Precision AR-15 with single-point, cut-rifling Krieger barrel.
Sierra 55 Grain BlitzKing
3-shot group: 0.088 MOA
5-shot group: 0.206 MOA
10-shot group: 0.439 MOA
10 "quarters" shot in a row at 100 yards. Over-laying the 10 quarters on each other using RSI Shooting lab produced a 0.45 MOA 10-shot group.
...
Sierra 55 Grain BlitzKing
3-shot group: 0.088 MOA
5-shot group: 0.206 MOA
10-shot group: 0.439 MOA
10 "quarters" shot in a row at 100 yards. Over-laying the 10 quarters on each other using RSI Shooting lab produced a 0.45 MOA 10-shot group.
...
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