AR Newbie - Best $1500 AR15?

tylerw02 · Oct 17, 2013

mdmorrow said:
Exactly. If I beat it up that's one thing but coming from the factory looking like crap isn't cool. Not to mention their custom service on the other hand was downright terrible. I have another colt just like it that I leave in one of our ranch trucks and it didn't come looking like that. I hope I don't ever have any trouble with it but if I do it'll be replaced by something other than colt. It may be the standard but there are plenty of manufacturers that make a much better product.

Better? In what way better? If you mean the pretty finish, I fail to see how that is "better". Of course you're having a problem with customer service when your gripe is "the colors don't match perfect on my rifle" when there is nothing they can or should do to correct that.

Do yourself a favor and never pick up an Accuracy International, either. They are notorious for their field grade finish. Or for that matter, a Springfield M1A or anything of the sort.

samnev · Oct 17, 2013

tylerw02 said:
I explained it once, Colt anodizes to a spec. Others want pretty, which doesn't meet spec. You aren't too serious of a shooter if finish is the most important thing. A rifle is a tool. I don't intentionally mess it up, but it doesn't bother me if it cosmetically damaged performing its intended role. Do you also get upset when your hammer gets dinged driving nails? Or if the color on the handle doesn't match the grip?

How dare you have the unmitigated gall to say I am not "to serious a shooter". You talk like a man who thinks his opinion is the only righteous one. I have been collecting and competitively shooting for over 45 years. So don't make your uninformed and idiotic judgement on some one you don't know. You only show you distain for others who have a different idea about what is acceptable and what is not. I respect your opinion on what you like. Why cant you gracefully accept the opinion on others who may differ with you?
P.S. I never said finish was the most important quality of a rifle. You inferred that yourself.

Cobracutter · Oct 17, 2013

Brian said:
And your reasoning is??
Absolutely nothing wrong with a Colt AR

OP why $1500?
Is it gonna be a jerking off safe queen or you going to run it?
You can find a good AR for around the 1k mark and you would still have 500 left over for a good optic or ammo....

While colts are decent guns, they are overpriced and under featured...... Only an idiot buys a 16" carbine gas rifle with m4/m203 cuts.

There are some good options in that price range. The correct awsner is to build one. Hell you can buy a complete upper and lower and slap together and still come out ahead. Or source the parts you want and go to town.

Or save a little more and get a SR15.

Cobracutter · Oct 17, 2013

tylerw02 said:
I explained it once, Colt anodizes to a spec. Others want pretty, which doesn't meet spec. You aren't too serious of a shooter if finish is the most important thing. A rifle is a tool. I don't intentionally mess it up, but it doesn't bother me if it cosmetically damaged performing its intended role. Do you also get upset when your hammer gets dinged driving nails? Or if the color on the handle doesn't match the grip?

And what makes "spec" or gov specs the best choice?

So some idiots in a program/procurement office decide what specifications a combat rifle will have..... and they have never even fired a gun in their lives... or sought advice from Infantryman who live with their rifles everyday....

Let me give you some advice how products/services are chosesn in the gov: The absolute cheapest option that meets a set of MINIMUM specs... that are often arbitrary.

mdmorrow · Oct 17, 2013

I doubt a colt would hold up to this type of punishment:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/WCBcV2Nb2Wo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Y1kX0nCEh5E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There are many manufacturers that go beyond mil-spec. It's just a minimal measure.

Darkside-Six · Oct 17, 2013

Cobracutter said:
While colts are decent guns, they are overpriced and under featured...... Only an idiot buys a 16" carbine gas rifle with m4/m203 cuts.

There are some good options in that price range. The correct awsner is to build one. Hell you can buy a complete upper and lower and slap together and still come out ahead. Or source the parts you want and go to town.

Or save a little more and get a SR15.

Thats what i've been saying all along. Hell, I built a custom AR back in the spring when all the prices were sky high and still managed to get it at a good rate. Spikes lower, Colt SOCOM upper, Daniel Defense lower parts kit. all Magpulled out with accesories, Troy flip up back up sites and an EOTech 512 for under $1600. gun is flawless and it's just the way I wanted it, both functionaly and astheticaly.

1slow01z71 · Oct 17, 2013

tylerw02 said:
Better? In what way better? If you mean the pretty finish, I fail to see how that is "better". Of course you're having a problem with customer service when your gripe is "the colors don't match perfect on my rifle" when there is nothing they can or should do to correct that.

Do yourself a favor and never pick up an Accuracy International, either. They are notorious for their field grade finish. Or for that matter, a Springfield M1A or anything of the sort.

The fact that you think milspec is synonymous with quality makes every other argument you've got invalid.

Cobracutter · Oct 17, 2013

mdmorrow said:
I doubt a colt would hold up to this type of punishment:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/WCBcV2Nb2Wo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Y1kX0nCEh5E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There are many manufacturers that go beyond mil-spec. It's just a minimal measure.

Where is the video tests of COLT, BCM, NOVESKE, KAC, SPIKES, DEL-TON or whatever to compare DD to? Without a compariosn, the tests mean shit.

Only a fucking retarded mongoloid would use that test as a reason to choose that brand.

DD makes a great product , no doubt. But your logic is grossly flawed.

TexAg07 · Oct 17, 2013

tylerw02 said:
You don't say what you want to do with this AR. Do you want a battle rifle? If so look toward Colt, Daniel Defense, or BCM. I prefer BCM, but I own recent production Colt, DD, and BCM and all are excellent. If you want a battle rifle, avoid DPMS, Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, etc. If this were my purpose, I'd buy a Colt 6920 for about $1050, a VCAS sling and a $400 Aimpoint PRO or pony up a few hundred more for a T1. Though I'd recommend mastering the irons first.

If you want a hunting gun, the other guys are just fine, and you could throw in Remington, etc. Ambush probably makes the best out of the box hunting gun for the cash.

If you want a game gun, you may look at the specialty products like JP or some of the Stag, RRA, etc models designed for that purpose.

+1....I dabble in 3 gun and run a JP. Its fast and extremely accurate. I hunt (hogs and coyote) with a colt and free float barrel, killed many of pigs with tracers at 500 yrds. My buddy is a defense contractor and runs a DD and BCM..... They arent as accurate as mine however are some tough guns. Not saying the JP isn't durable because I have dropped it, thrown it, etc in competitions but what he wants out of a rifle......they provide. Find what you want and fits your desires. I promise someone makes it or you can build it.

tylerw02 · Oct 17, 2013

1slow01z71 said:
The fact that you think milspec is synonymous with quality makes every other argument you've got invalid.

There is a lot to know about ARs and quality. There is a wide variety of parts quality out there. While there are many parts that meet spec, many do not. Milspec is the standard which we judge them. For instance, which is better? 4140 found in a RRA or Mil-B-11595E found in a Colt? Do you know the difference? The fact is a large majority of manufacturers fall BELOW milspec. So if the milspec guns aren't quality, how bad does that mean the likes of RRA, DPMS, and Bushmaster are?

Willybeen · Oct 17, 2013

Pws mk1mod1 seems to be getting great reviews. 1460ish shipped from grabagun

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Willybeen · Oct 17, 2013

I was going to buy the larue but a 12 month wait seemed a bit harsh

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tylerw02 · Oct 17, 2013

samnev said:
How dare you have the unmitigated gall to say I am not "to serious a shooter". You talk like a man who thinks his opinion is the only righteous one. I have been collecting and competitively shooting for over 45 years. So don't make your uninformed and idiotic judgement on some one you don't know. You only show you distain for others who have a different idea about what is acceptable and what is not. I respect your opinion on what you like. Why cant you gracefully accept the opinion on others who may differ with you?
P.S. I never said finish was the most important quality of a rifle. You inferred that yourself.

Gall? Your post demonstrated the point. You are a "collector" who wants "pristine as possible"---while you defend this guy who sold a rifle SOLELY on the basis of the the anodizing being a slightly different color (which demonstrates finish being the most important aspect I would imagine). Where did I say you weren't a serious shooter? I said the man that believes finish is the most important thing on a rifle isn't.

What "distain" have I showed? I don't even know the word, but I guess that's because I'm "idiotic". I don't care about what you choose to value or not value. Knock yourself out...only take your rifle out in fair weather and keep the aluminum rubbed down and oiled and touch it up with a Shrapie when your magazine well starts to wear from all those magazine changes from competitive shooting if that is what floats your boat. You are demanding somebody gracefully accept your and mdmorrow's opinion, while you guys can't do the same?

Cobracutter · Oct 17, 2013

tylerw02 said:
There is a lot to know about ARs and quality. There is a wide variety of parts quality out there. While there are many parts that meet spec, many do not. Milspec is the standard which we judge them. For instance, which is better? 4140 found in a RRA or Mil-B-11595E found in a Colt? Do you know the difference? The fact is a large majority of manufacturers fall BELOW milspec. So if the milspec guns aren't quality, how bad does that mean the likes of RRA, DPMS, and Bushmaster are?

Now your talking in circles and deflecting the whole point. You defend Milspec by saying something milspec.............
Are you really that dense?

Cobracutter · Oct 17, 2013

Willybeen said:
Pws mk1mod1 seems to be getting great reviews. 1460ish shipped from grabagun

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You might as well just send me that money, let me kick you in the nuts, and thank me for it.

Once again we get another weekend dirt shooter who plays call of duty... giving gun advice (which is surprisingly, shitty advice)

mdmorrow · Oct 17, 2013

Cobracutter said:
Where is the video tests of COLT, BCM, NOVESKE, KAC, SPIKES, DEL-TON or whatever to compare DD to? Without a compariosn, the tests mean shit.

Only a fucking retarded mongoloid would use that test as a reason to choose that brand.

DD makes a great product , no doubt. But your logic is grossly flawed.

Never the reason I picked a DD. I actually own several AR's from different manufacturers and they all have their strong suits. However, that is great marketing and does show that that particular rifle can take a beating. Not to mention the Aimpoint and Surefire that were attached to it. Doesn't matter. It's a cool video if nothing else. I'm sure there are plenty of others that could take the same beating. However, I don't believe my Colt 6920 is built as well as my DDM4. Yes I do own both.

tylerw02 said:
Gall? Your post demonstrated the point. You are a "collector" who wants "pristine as possible"---while you defend this guy who sold a rifle SOLELY on the basis of the the anodizing being a slightly different color (which demonstrates finish being the most important aspect I would imagine). Where did I say you weren't a serious shooter? I said the man that believes finish is the most important thing on a rifle isn't.

What "distain" have I showed? I don't even know the word, but I guess that's because I'm "idiotic". I don't care about what you choose to value or not value. Knock yourself out...only take your rifle out in fair weather and keep the aluminum rubbed down and oiled and touch it up with a Shrapie when your magazine well starts to wear from all those magazine changes from competitive shooting if that is what floats your boat. You are demanding somebody gracefully accept your and mdmorrow's opinion, while you guys can't do the same?

I'm not demanding anybody to accept my opinion. I didn't want a retarded purple barney gun, simple as that. You get a purple rifle, then by all means you're more than welcome to keep it. When I buy something, I expect for it to come out of the box looking like it just came out of a box. I don't pamper my guns, I use them. They get dirty and they get scratched. But I don't expect them to be made that way.

My real issue with Colt wasn't even the anodizing. It was the poor communication from their service department. It took them over a month to return a phone call and an email. By that point I was over it and had gotten an offer to trade my rifle up for a much more valuable 1911, a Les Baer Concept V. I've had great service experiences with several other firearm and optic manufacturers so I do have something to compare it to.

tylerw02 · Oct 17, 2013

Cobracutter said:
Now your talking in circles and deflecting the whole point. You defend Milspec by saying something milspec.............
Are you really that dense?

Are you so dense as to not being able to answer a question? How do YOU gauge the quality of a given part? Which is better, a 4140 barrel or Mil-B-11595E? Why?

Which is better, unknown steel or C158? Which would you rather have, a part that has passed HP/MPI or one that wasn't tested or was batch tested?

Exactly what parts are low quality on the Colt 6920? The Colts aren't the most optioned rifles out there, but they are made of quality parts and at a fair price. $1050 for a 6920 isn't cheap, but the retail of a $900 for a Bushmaster that doesn't even have taper pins in the FSB, no staking, and a crummy barrel really isn't something that really screams "value" either.

tylerw02 · Oct 17, 2013

mdmorrow said:
I'm not demanding anybody to accept my opinion. I didn't want a retarded purple barney gun, simple as that. You get a purple rifle, then by all means you're more than welcome to keep it. When I buy something, I expect for it to come out of the box looking like it just came out of a box. I don't pamper my guns, I use them. They get dirty and they get scratched. But I don't expect them to be made that way.

My real issue with Colt wasn't even the anodizing. It was the poor communication from their service department. It took them over a month to return a phone call and an email. By that point I was over it and had gotten an offer to trade my rifle up for a much more valuable 1911, a Les Baer Concept V. I've had great service experiences with several other firearm and optic manufacturers so I do have something to compare it to.

Why did you take this "purple barney gun" home in the first place if the anodizing was so important? I'd say the anodizing WAS your issue, otherwise you'd not have called them in the first place. You are aware of the demand for AR rifles since Newtown, right?

Either way, I'm glad you are satisfied with your DD and your Les Baer. Personally, I avoid Baer like the clap after they had a photo op with one of their ARs with a backwards castle-nut and then had the stones to try to tell their customers that the customer for that run requested them that way and it was somehow superior.

The NEW Les Baer Police Special M4 - M4Carbine.net Forums

But why trust Colt if their anodizing comes out two different colors? Though, I will say I love my DD, I've hard purple DD anodizing, too. Its not anything camo spray paint doesn't hide anyway. LOL

mdmorrow · Oct 17, 2013

tylerw02 said:
Why did you take this "purple barney gun" home in the first place if the anodizing was so important? I'd say the anodizing WAS your issue, otherwise you'd not have called them in the first place. You are aware of the demand for AR rifles since Newtown, right?

What I mean is I wouldn't have gotten rid of it just over the anodizing. I would have painted the gun or cerakoted. However, it warranted a phone call. It was that bad.

I made the mistake of only verifying the serial on the lower when I picked it up at my FFL. It was the upper that looked bad.

I would have just kept it and painted it had I not gotten the opportunity to swap it out. Baer makes some of the finest 1911's out there, however I don't have any experience with their AR's.

tylerw02 · Oct 17, 2013

I've heard good things about their 1911s, but their response to the backwards nuts made me lose respect for them as a company.

Willybeen · Oct 17, 2013

Cobracutter said:
You might as well just send me that money, let me kick you in the nuts, and thank me for it.

Once again we get another weekend dirt shooter who plays call of duty... giving gun advice (which is surprisingly, shitty advice)

Not appreciated. I've owned quite a few ars, and never played cod in my life. Grow up. Rangerproof who's highly respected it would seem can't seem to say enough good about the pws mk1 rifles. Pardon me for offering an opinion, I'll be sure to post my review of the gun once it hits the 1k mark.

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Cobracutter · Oct 17, 2013

tylerw02 said:
Are you so dense as to not being able to answer a question? How do YOU gauge the quality of a given part? Which is better, a 4140 barrel or Mil-B-11595E? Why?

Which is better, unknown steel or C158? Which would you rather have, a part that has passed HP/MPI or one that wasn't tested or was batch tested?

Exactly what parts are low quality on the Colt 6920? The Colts aren't the most optioned rifles out there, but they are made of quality parts and at a fair price. $1050 for a 6920 isn't cheap, but the retail of a $900 for a Bushmaster that doesn't even have taper pins in the FSB, no staking, and a crummy barrel really isn't something that really screams "value" either.

I did not awsner your question because A. as I pointed out, You were deflecting and changing the subject. B. You are asking stupid, rhetorical questions and name dropping steel alloys to try and make it sound like you know what your talking about.

Truth is.... Unless your doing Multiple (5X in rapid succession) Mag dumps on FA, you will never be able to tell the difference between 4140, 4150, CMV or any other common barrel steel. So stop pretending like it even makes a fucking difference to 99.99% of users and 100% of civilian shooters.

And once again, Stop fucking putting words in people's mouth. I NEVER SAID COLD USES LOW QUALITY PARTS. Please, show me where I said that.

If you must know , the reason I said Colt was a poor choice is the features.... Such as still making Carbine gas systems when Middies and intermediates are supperior on a 16"+ gun (Unless you are SBR's which I assume you are not). They also have stupid fucking barrel cuts that are made for attaching a M203, that adds weight that is not needed, while adding no additional strength or even barrel heat displacement. Colt is not some wonder gun, and if the idiot putting the gun together or the monkey doing QC on that batch decides to have a brain fart... you can easily end up with a lemon gun... Just like any company. There are too many other manufactures out there that make Similar or superior products, for less money. I would rather a new shooter save money for ammo/optics/training and not have to realize 6 months down the road, that this is not the gun he wants..... again losing money.

And lasty , were not talking about bushmaster.. and just about every major AR company is now making their guns correctly. They may not use the best parts... but its pretty hard to find a gun that doesn't work out of the box.
AS someone who is name dropping M4C, maybe you should go ask some of the Industry Proffesionals and SME's about your little toy.

Cobracutter · Oct 17, 2013

Willybeen said:
Not appreciated. I've owned quite a few ars, and never played cod in my life. Grow up. Rangerproof who's highly respected it would seem can't seem to say enough good about the pws mk1 rifles. Pardon me for offering an opinion, I'll be sure to post my review of the gun once it hits the 1k mark.

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No offense, but some people have been around the block a few times.. Its not like I'm just making this shit up. ALL of these guns have been used, owned, tested, evaluated and compared over the years by MANY people and its not exactly a secret if you do a little of your own research. Ignoring everything I just said... Piston guns are a waste of money anyway... so its not even a debate. People with MUCH more experince, insight, and knowledge of these guns than you or I have been there done that.... and usualy come to the same conclusions.

Willybeen · Oct 17, 2013

Cobracutter said:
No offense, but some people have been around the block a few times.. Its not like I'm just making this shit up. ALL of these guns have been used, owned, tested, evaluated and compared over the years by MANY people and its not exactly a secret if you do a little of your own research. Ignoring everything I just said... Piston guns are a waste of money anyway... so its not even a debate. People with MUCH more experince, insight, and knowledge of these guns than you or I have been there done that.... and usualy come to the same conclusions.

Meh agree to disagree. For certain applications I prefer my piston guns. Nothing wrong di guns in fact, I prefer them but I spent quite a bit of trigger time behind a suppressed mk1 and it was a pleasant experience. Which was more pleasant than the buffer spring changing, nauseating blowback, etc. So to say piston guns aren't worth the extra money, I challenge that. It's in the same price point and has stood up to quite a bit of abuse.

I love my ddm4v3 though as well.

Hell , my first gun, a stag arms di gun.... Never gave me a lick of trouble either.

I digress. What do I know? I'm just a video game enthusiast.....

Ps is the mk1 pws gun in any video games??!?

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KR24 · Oct 17, 2013

Build one and you will never consider buying complete again. Way more fun and rewarding.

EasternNChunter · Oct 18, 2013

KR24 said:
Build one and you will never consider buying complete again. Way more fun and rewarding.

Thanks and that is just what I am going to do. I really like the Rock River ATH in the pics on the first page in that it has the stock that I want and I love the fore end but I want one that is barrel length for a longer grip. I also want a 16" 1-7 twist barrel instead of the 18" 1-8 twist. A buddy of mine has built a bunch of them, has all of the tools, and might as well be an AR builder in that he has tried some of everything.

My main issue right now is trying to decide on a scope. I want this rifle to be a "Truck Rifle" that I can use while riding around on the farm, while also being able to shoot steel out to 400-500 yards. I THINK I want something in the 2-10 magnification range. I thought about going with the Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 but I don't want a scope that big. I like the compactness of the AR and have to keep reminding myself that I don't want to turn it into something that I would like it to be 15%-25% of the time. I also want this for home defense and feel like a big scope hinders that somewhat. I want a scope with exposed turrets that aren't super tall as well as a ballistic reticle that can be illuminated. Basically I want this rifle to be a light weight, compact, mulit-purpose (hunting, shooting steel, home defense, etc.) rifle and I want the scope to match. I am also having 2 bolt action rifles built, bought a Premier Light Tactical scope, and then building the rifle so I will NOT have more than $800 to spend on this scope. One of my buddies is law enforcement so he can get great discounts on Leupold, Vortex and Bushnell. Right now I am leaning towards the Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x44 EBR-1. Thoughts?

Crosshair · Oct 18, 2013

EasternNChunter said:
Thanks and that is just what I am going to do. I really like the Rock River ATH in the pics on the first page in that it has the stock that I want and I love the fore end but I want one that is barrel length for a longer grip. I also want a 16" 1-7 twist barrel instead of the 18" 1-8 twist. A buddy of mine has built a bunch of them, has all of the tools, and might as well be an AR builder in that he has tried some of everything.

My main issue right now is trying to decide on a scope. I want this rifle to be a "Truck Rifle" that I can use while riding around on the farm, while also being able to shoot steel out to 400-500 yards. I THINK I want something in the 2-10 magnification range. I thought about going with the Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 but I don't want a scope that big. I like the compactness of the AR and have to keep reminding myself that I don't want to turn it into something that I would like it to be 15%-25% of the time. I also want this for home defense and feel like a big scope hinders that somewhat. I want a scope with exposed turrets that aren't super tall as well as a ballistic reticle that can be illuminated. Basically I want this rifle to be a light weight, compact, mulit-purpose (hunting, shooting steel, home defense, etc.) rifle and I want the scope to match. I am also having 2 bolt action rifles built, bought a Premier Light Tactical scope, and then building the rifle so I will NOT have more than $800 to spend on this scope. One of my buddies is law enforcement so he can get great discounts on Leupold, Vortex and Bushnell. Right now I am leaning towards the Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x44 EBR-1. Thoughts?

Great plan, you will love being involved with building the rifle. There are several 16" 1:7 match barrels that would be great on that build. For the scope selection, the Viper you mentioned with the 44mm objective might leave you wanting a little bit since you are a Glass Guy, and once you look through a Primer everything else will seem dull. I'd recommend the newer, redesigned FFP 2.5-10x32 Vortex instead. I haven't heard one guy say the glass wasn't stellar for the money. The more compact 32mm is a great form factor on an AR, I'm running a 32mm Vortex on the SPR I built last year... Perfect size and mag range, IMO.

EasternNChunter · Oct 18, 2013

Thanks for the advice! I wasn't aware Vortex made that scope but it does sound like exactly what I am looking for. I am somewhat of a glass snob but don't think I will be nearly as snobby with this scope as I am on my bolt action scopes.

Gray · Oct 18, 2013

If you buy a ready to go floor model, Barnes Precision Machine. They are in Apex beside Jeff's house. They are awesome for the $$$$ and about $1200

Cobracutter · Oct 18, 2013

Willybeen said:
Meh agree to disagree. For certain applications I prefer my piston guns. Nothing wrong di guns in fact, I prefer them but I spent quite a bit of trigger time behind a suppressed mk1 and it was a pleasant experience. Which was more pleasant than the buffer spring changing, nauseating blowback, etc. So to say piston guns aren't worth the extra money, I challenge that. It's in the same price point and has stood up to quite a bit of abuse.

I love my ddm4v3 though as well.

Hell , my first gun, a stag arms di gun.... Never gave me a lick of trouble either.

I digress. What do I know? I'm just a video game enthusiast.....

Ps is the mk1 pws gun in any video games??!?

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And you are still wrong. Its one thing to be ignorant. Its another to pretend like you know what your talking about. Show me one top level, accreditied trainer that is pushing LWRC or PWS. Want to know why they don't? Beacuse the guys that run these guns for a living, and see dozens of guns a week go through thousands of rounds..... See what works and what doesn't work.

Ignorant novices like you think that beacuse your little pea shooter that gets 500 rnds a year does not choke, that its just as good as proven platforms. Then you go on to give advice (its the internet so not like we can stop you) that when read by another idiot.... seems just as valid as someone who HAS the experince and knows better. So here is a piece of advice* All Opinions are not equal*. Realize this, shut your trap and listen up and you may learn something.

Cobracutter · Oct 18, 2013

EasternNChunter said:
Thanks and that is just what I am going to do. I really like the Rock River ATH in the pics on the first page in that it has the stock that I want and I love the fore end but I want one that is barrel length for a longer grip. I also want a 16" 1-7 twist barrel instead of the 18" 1-8 twist. A buddy of mine has built a bunch of them, has all of the tools, and might as well be an AR builder in that he has tried some of everything.

My main issue right now is trying to decide on a scope. I want this rifle to be a "Truck Rifle" that I can use while riding around on the farm, while also being able to shoot steel out to 400-500 yards. I THINK I want something in the 2-10 magnification range. I thought about going with the Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 but I don't want a scope that big. I like the compactness of the AR and have to keep reminding myself that I don't want to turn it into something that I would like it to be 15%-25% of the time. I also want this for home defense and feel like a big scope hinders that somewhat. I want a scope with exposed turrets that aren't super tall as well as a ballistic reticle that can be illuminated. Basically I want this rifle to be a light weight, compact, mulit-purpose (hunting, shooting steel, home defense, etc.) rifle and I want the scope to match. I am also having 2 bolt action rifles built, bought a Premier Light Tactical scope, and then building the rifle so I will NOT have more than $800 to spend on this scope. One of my buddies is law enforcement so he can get great discounts on Leupold, Vortex and Bushnell. Right now I am leaning towards the Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x44 EBR-1. Thoughts?

Stay away from RRA for anything serious. They have tight chambers and come with decent barrels, but that is about it. They are notoriously unreliable une very questionable parts. Your better off sourcing quality parts and putting the gun together... Its very simple if you take your time and torque/stake everything to spec.

There is nothing wrong with a 1/8 twist, in fact many match/varmit .223 guns use this without a problem. It will stabalize anything that is mag legnth up to including the 77GR matchkings. M8556 Tracers which are pretty long, may have issues (Twist depends on legth of the bullet not the weight) but unless you plan to shoot them and/or 80GR + projos.... then a 1/8 is fine.

Willybeen · Oct 18, 2013

:eyeroll: :jerkoffmotion:

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tylerw02 · Oct 18, 2013

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Cobracutter said:
And what makes "spec" or gov specs the best choice?

Cobracutter said:
Truth is.... Unless your doing Multiple (5X in rapid succession) Mag dumps on FA, you will never be able to tell the difference between 4140, 4150, CMV or any other common barrel steel. So stop pretending like it even makes a fucking difference to 99.99% of users and 100% of civilian shooters.

So which is it? That the spec steel is better than the 4140 a majority of builders are using or that its unneeded in your opinion?

Cobracutter said:
If you must know , the reason I said Colt was a poor choice is the features....

So then why even mention spec parts as a means of saying that it’s a bad choice if you were all about features?

Cobracutter said:
Such as still making Carbine gas systems when Middies and intermediates are supperior on a 16"+ gun

Except for with many companies, the mid-length gas systems features very huge gas ports that put out as much, if not more high-pressure gas than a carbine-length Colts. So rather than a blanket statement, why don’t you provide specifics?

Cobracutter said:
They also have stupid fucking barrel cuts that are made for attaching a M203, that adds weight that is not needed, while adding no additional strength or even barrel heat displacement.

How much weight does this cut-out add to the gun? Can your girlie arms not handle it? Let’s see specifically this large amount of weight making the Colt an inferior gun.

Cobracutter said:
Colt is not some wonder gun, and if the idiot putting the gun together or the monkey doing QC on that batch decides to have a brain fart... you can easily end up with a lemon gun... Just like any company.

Who said Colt was a wonder gun? Sure anybody can make a lemon. Do you have any knowledge on the failure rates of Colt who inspects each part in multiple ways, vs the “superior cheaper guns” you talk of?

Cobracutter said:
There are too many other manufactures out there that make Similar or superior products, for less money.

Again, some specifics please? Who makes a similar or superior product for less money?
Colt LE6920 for $1099, you can get them at Walmart for $50 less with a carry handle and 2 aluminum 20 round magazines and maintenance kit.
Colt LE 6920 at G and R Tactical
Bravo M4 Mod1 for $1176, which is more money. It does have a nicer pistol grip and trigger guard, though.
M4 16 Carbine MOD 1 at G and R Tactical

S&W M&P 15A, which some say is lower quality, $1400.
S&W M&P 15A (OUT OF STOCK) at G and R Tactical
DD discontinued their non-railed handguard units, but here’s their V7, $1509. Daniel Defense M4 Carbine V7 (OUT OF STOCK) at G and R Tactical
It has a Magpul stock, which isn’t necessarily any better than the Roger’s stock, but it does have a Magpul trigger guard and a $240 hand guard. Looks like, added options included, its not any cheaper either.

So how about LMT? Their version of the M4. Some say it is slightly lower quality in that they park their barrels after the FSB is installed and a few minor details. Otherwise it has an upgraded stock and grip, which are simply a preference, no more expensive than the furniture on some of the others. Its $1250.00
LMT 16" Standard M4 Rifle (OUT OF STOCK) at G and R Tactical

But finally, something cheaper! CMMG’s M4. Its only $900, though it does have a 4140 1-9” barrel, no staking on anything, no taper pins in the FSB, and several parts that aren’t MPI/HP tested.
M4 LE Rifle

So how about RRA equivalent model to the 6920, which of course has an inferior barrel, not parts testing, no staking, etc. I can attest first-hand to the fact that they have HUGE gas ports, even on their mid-length guns, resulting in a hard shooting gun, relative to some of the others. The RRA LAR-15 comes in at $1065.00 before adding options (it doesn’t even have a rear sight). But hey, you shave all the weight of not having M203 cutouts, right? 7.5 lbs total weight!
Rock River Arms: Tactical CAR A4

How about LaRue? Well, you can’t even get one.

Cobracutter said:
and just about every major AR company is now making their guns correctly. They may not use the best parts... but its pretty hard to find a gun that doesn't work out of the box.

Have you looked at some of the newer ARs? No, they aren’t making their ARs right across the board. Yeah, they may “work” out of the box but that doesn’t mean they hold up. And guess what? Their prices aren’t really any better than Colt. Who are the superior makers for less money?

Cobracutter said:
AS someone who is name dropping M4C, maybe you should go ask some of the Industry Proffesionals and SME's about your little toy.

Name dropping? Who is name dropping? What “little toy” do I need to ask a question about? I’m confused.

And sure, there are some nice features that Colt doesn’t offer. I’d like to see them offer a railed gun other than the 6940. Some of their stuff is a bit dated, too. But it is all quality and quality you really can’t beat for the money as demonstrated above. Colt is not the end-all be all, but it’s not some kind of trash gun that costs more and offers less that you describe. Certainly Colt 6920 purchasers aren’t idiots like you describe, either. Furthermore, to dismiss them for their anodizing not matching in color as one poster did is ridiculous. Their mismatched color doesn’t demonstrate a low quality product as they don’t consider their color, rather they meet a specification. It’s like the guys that complain about the finish of Accuracy International rifles here. It’s silly. However, the guns that do have the nice features Colt lacks usually cost $500+ more than a box-stock 6920.
I like mid-lengths too, if they are done right. I have a mid-length DD and two mid-length BCMs that are great. Meanwhile the RRA middy I had had a huge gas port and a crummy FSB that wasn’t secure from the factory and wouldn’t hold a zero. Which brings me to your next post.

Cobracutter said:
Stay away from RRA for anything serious. They have tight chambers and come with decent barrels, but that is about it. They are notoriously unreliable une very questionable parts. Your better off sourcing quality parts and putting the gun together... Its very simple if you take your time and torque/stake everything to spec.

There is nothing wrong with a 1/8 twist, in fact many match/varmit .223 guns use this without a problem. It will stabalize anything that is mag legnth up to including the 77GR matchkings. M8556 Tracers which are pretty long, may have issues (Twist depends on legth of the bullet not the weight) but unless you plan to shoot them and/or 80GR + projos.... then a 1/8 is fine.

You are dead nuts right on this one in my experience.

Anyway, you’re rather stubborn so this isn’t going to do any good. Sorry to the OP for derailing, but I hope you’ve got some good information from it at least. Good luck on your search! Again, look at my first post and decide what you want to do with the rifle, and then choose.

mbpike · Oct 18, 2013

Good luck OP. Have you started working up a build sheet yet?

Cobracutter · Oct 18, 2013

tylerw02 said:
SNIP

Jesus christ you ramble like an incoherent woman. Once again you are interjecting shit that makes no sense and has no relevence to this discussion, while ignoring what was said. I appreciate the effort Captian Obvious, but its not helping your cause.

How long have you been building AR's? How many have you build in your lifetime? What proffesional capacity have you done this in?

Here's my info so u can try and one up me. Been building since I was 16, helping older friends out. At 18, started build my own guns. Joined the Army as 17 and was in for almost 8 years, with a good chunk of that time as an amoror on deployment to CENTCOM. Have worked on every standard small arms weapon system up to the M2/MK19. Have fixed/worked on hundreds of weapons, optics, ect. Also have put more rounds range just test firing weapons, then most would shoot in their entire lifetime. Have build dozens of guns over the years for myself,friends, and family. Currently work for the government, and sitting about 15 feet from where I type this right now, is one of the largest weapon collections in the world, with firearms going back to around 1450, That falls under my umbrella. On any given day I am helping teach the armoror about the weapons/history/heritige that she has stewardship over. I can finger fuck just about any modern weapon you can imagine, and usualy do. We have just about every AR/XM 15/16 rifle ever made and many that never even made it into production. Take them apart, look at the designs, how they were machined, look for wear points or places where parts can break easy. It's one of the best jobs in the world, and sometimes, I can't belive they pay me for it. Its also not even my primary job, just something I do for fun to help out my guys/gals. When I'm not doing that, I'm out at quanitco or some other range shooting. When I'm not doing that, I'm on the gun boards doing research, reading , watching reviews and taking in anything I can to increase my knowlege base That is all over the last 12 years. With that being said, there are people here and on other site have that infinatley more knowledge and experince than I do. They are the ones you and I should be listening to.

So please tell us your qualifications.

EDIT: You sound like one of grants little puppets. Pushing the G&R Tactical pretty hard. Maybe you should ask him about why Larry Vickers Revoked his VSM trainer cert.... Something about Shoot houses and Big boy rules.......

EasternNChunter · Oct 18, 2013

Man, yall shut up and take your bickering somewhere else.

tylerw02 · Oct 18, 2013

Cobracutter said:
EDIT: You sound like one of grants little puppets. Pushing the G&R Tactical pretty hard. Maybe you should ask him about why Larry Vickers Revoked his VSM trainer cert.... Something about Shoot houses and Big boy rules.......

How am I "pushing" G&R???????????????? I tell anybody Grant is a genius? I tell anybody to shop there? I provided links with similar products at one place for an apples to apples comparison. See, that's your problem. You can't read. You read stuff into things that aren't there. Go chase a dog...

tylerw02 · Oct 18, 2013

EasternNChunter said:
Man, yall shut up and take your bickering somewhere else.

My apologies for my part in the bickering in your thread. Good luck on your build, man!

Willybeen · Oct 24, 2013

http://www.slickguns.com/product/daniel-defense-save-400-all-stock-complete-rifles

Pretty good deal. 1200 for a brand new Daniel defense. They have multiple varieties in Stock too.

Wish I had more money to justify on another rifle right now

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Why1504 · Oct 24, 2013

For the money I really like DD. Their only shortfall can be their trigger. I have 2.

I would strongly consider building yourself. Buy a high end trigger, a really good barrel with a matched bolt. After that you can pick what you want. Oh, put a good comp on the end of the barrel. You will likely end up with a more accurate gun here. But both of my DD SBR's are really accurate, really nice tight guns. DD also are right there with NOVESKE from the standpoint of maintaining value. The NOVESKE will be more costly and this is why I have the DD's. I didn't see the increase in value over the DD.

trainedkilla · Oct 27, 2013

I have a COLT LE 6940. I have not played with it yet (deployed right now) but I am sure it will perform as my other Colt ARs (I have owned 6) have...flawlessly. I have deployed a few times and my COLT M4s have been absolutely awesome.

For the poster that stated "I doubt Colt could stand up to this punishment"....I would like to bet you some money so I can but some new toys. I have only carried COLTs on deployments and they get beat to death and continue to be a life saving tool. Colt, Trijicon ACOG or a AimPoint have all proven themselves in firefights while maneavering through terrain and slamming against walls, trees and the ground.

When I buy a weapon, I don't care if it is pretty or the most expensive...I care that it will work when I need it. COLT, ACOG and AimPoint (M68) has proven that it will perform in the worst of conditions when needed.

Houston Fire 34 · Oct 30, 2013

Im surprised to have only seen one mention of the Sig M400 on this. Its an outstanding rifle right out of the box and and the long reliability of the Sig brand. For about a grand or so you can put some nice optics on it. Now as for the other rifles ur not gonna go wrong. DD, RRA, Noveski, LWRC ect.... are great rifles. i just didnt want the Sig to go under noted.

Willybeen · Oct 30, 2013

Rifle. 1460
trigger 150

Range report to follow.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Here2Learn · Oct 31, 2013

Wow this is starting to feel like Arfcom. You may have already made up ur mind but if not you should consider JP JP Rifles. Some can be had for your price point.

cjlane · Oct 31, 2013

If you havent already made your purchase, I am also casting a vote for DD

nbtholl · Nov 1, 2013

Why1504 said:
For the money I really like DD. Their only shortfall can be their trigger.

Just wondering why you say this? I own one right now, and it has one of the best factory triggers besides a lmt out there. What do you not like on yours? The pull weight?

Rockhopper · Nov 1, 2013

for $1500 i would pick in this order:

custom build with MEGA recievers
noveske
bcm
DD

or all 4:

mega recievers, noveske nsr, bcm bcg, dd s2w barrel, magpul, timney, etc

Artifact · Nov 1, 2013

Get yourself a BCM...

jwb47 · Nov 1, 2013

the way this thread is going I would say get body armor first . for get all the interweb experts and buy the rifle you want its your money.

MrFrankZ · Nov 6, 2013

Wow, way to stir up a hornet's nest!

I own a RRA just for plinking, and I'm very happy with it. It fit the bill for what I wanted to do with it, and does so at a reasonable cost. With a cheap 1-4X scope, I am able to keep very nice groups at 100 and 200 which is the longest I have bothered to shoot it. In 3 years and ~8K rounds, it has not a single FTF/FTE. The NM trigger is pretty OK from the factory as well.

With that said, if you want to spend the $1500 on just a gun then the DD is a hell of a gun. A good friend has one, and it is really nice.

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