AR15 for PRS (Valkyrie, 6mm Grendel, 22 Grendel)?

[blue_ridge]

Ok, so I've read about a dozen threads about the various long range ar15 chamberings. I had a 6.5 Grendel about 10 years ago, so I'm familiar with the platform. I'm trying to determine which direction to go based on the best ballistics, the cost to build a rifle and how time consuming reloading will be. It gets convoluted real fast. Here's what I think is the bottom line, but I'm asking for advice to see if there's more to the subject:

1). Ballistics - 6mm Grendel variants, like a Fat Rat, 6mm AR and AR Turbo have the best ballistics. A close 2nd goes to 22 Grendel types. 224 Valkyrie is a close 3rd in performance.

2). Cost to build - Robert Whitley pioneered much of the development in this category, but his focus is on NRA High Power rifles and his stuff is expensive. Accurate and Reliable Rifles has the Fat Rat, identical to the 6mm AR and his gear is more reasonable. 22 Grendel - good luck, find your own reamer, find a compatible bolt and piece together your own build. Valkyries are starting to become available lots of places and therefore may offer the best deals for components and choices.

3) reload complexity - 6mm Grendel variants will require necking down 65 Grendel brass and possibly resizing and fire forming. 22 Grendel will be the same. Valkyrie had factory brass and loads available.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

My question to you is why in the hell would you want to handicap yourself by running an AR15 in PRS?

Gas gun series is all but dead, so that means bolt gun series or club series which you’ll be at a serious disadvantage in either against all the guys running bolt guns in medium action chamberings.

 

[GrandpaDeadLegs]

I feel like I could loan my Valkyrie to Frank or some of you and they could do well in a competition. I need way more practice...

It wasn't even hand made by any rifle gods or anything, just used the best shit and a long ass barrel.

Bonus being it will make for a sweet varminter.

Lots of crap in the forums and on the podcast about doing well and having fun at comps with a semi-auto, just a personal thing for you to get awesome at or look dumb I guess

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I get going to comps to have fun, that’s the basic reason although some take it so seriously that they end up not having fun.

That said, nobody likes doing bad, especially over as simple of a thing as choosing one piece of gear over another.

 

[Darqusoull13]

Ok, so I've read about a dozen threads about the various long range ar15 chamberings. I had a 6.5 Grendel about 10 years ago, so I'm familiar with the platform. I'm trying to determine which direction to go based on the best ballistics, the cost to build a rifle and how time consuming reloading will be. It gets convoluted real fast. Here's what I think is the bottom line, but I'm asking for advice to see if there's more to the subject:

1). Ballistics - 6mm Grendel variants, like a Fat Rat, 6mm AR and AR Turbo have the best ballistics. A close 2nd goes to 22 Grendel types. 224 Valkyrie is a close 3rd in performance.

2). Cost to build - Robert Whitley pioneered much of the development in this category, but his focus is on NRA High Power rifles and his stuff is expensive. Accurate and Reliable Rifles has the Fat Rat, identical to the 6mm AR and his gear is more reasonable. 22 Grendel - good luck, find your own reamer, find a compatible bolt and piece together your own build. Valkyries are starting to become available lots of places and therefore may offer the best deals for components and choices.

3) reload complexity - 6mm Grendel variants will require necking down 65 Grendel brass and possibly resizing and fire forming. 22 Grendel will be the same. Valkyrie had factory brass and loads available.

Go with the Valkyrie. JP makes a very reliable, very accurate Valk that will make you feel like a rockstar. Hornady 88 ELDM factory ammo is very nice and will get you playing in the game without chasing the maybes. Spend your time shooting and learning the game, not how to make some wildcat with no industry support run in a gas gun.

 

[blue_ridge]

I didn't realize the gas gun series was dead. Still, I like the idea of the lighter AR15 in a 1000 yard capable round for ringing steel, even if just for fun. I like the Grendel case better, but it might not be worth the extra trouble in brass prep. Valkyrie sounds very capable.

 

[Constructor]

The 22 cal may surprise you. In the 22 cal Grendel cats you can push a 80gr to around 3050fps, an 88gr around 2950. Run the ballistics against the 6mm 105s. The extra velocity can outperform the heavier slower bullets at most ranges shot in comps. There is really only 50-100fps difference between the Valkyrie and Grendel cats because you can run higher pressure in the 6.8 based cats before the case head expands and ruins the cases.

 

[RampedRaptor]

Just ran my 6 fat rat in the last club series match of the year on the 24th.

Notes to take home:
The reason I didn’t win wasn’t because of the cartridge.
Lost about 30% of my lapua brass
No reason to do any crazy reloading for a gas gun in PRS unless you enjoy wildcatting (mainly my excuse).
My primer pockets don’t last long in the rat.

Keep it simple. The 6 FR did great but it sucks fireforming, losing your brass or stretching primer pockets quickly for minimal gain. If there’s a chance you’ll shoot some factory ammo then put a JP 6.5grendel barrel on there and practice practice practice. Disclaimer I’m not a fan of the Valkyrie.

 

[stwcattle]

I own 2 JP 6.5 grendels and one JP 6 creedmoor and while they are well built accurate rifles, I would not consider shooting one of the JP's against bolt guns. There would be absolutely no fun in it at all.
If you are set on a gas gun, I agree with what has been said to stick with a caliber that factory ammunition is available for.

 

[Darqusoull13]

I own 2 JP 6.5 grendels and one JP 6 creedmoor and while they are well built accurate rifles, I would not consider shooting one of the JP's against bolt guns. There would be absolutely no fun in it at all.
If you are set on a gas gun, I agree with what has been said to stick with a caliber that factory ammunition is available for.

In my area gas gun is growing. I actually have quite a bit of fun shooting PRS with a gas gun against the bolt gun nerds. We have a separate gas gun division but everyone shoots the same course of fire. After trying my JP several of my friends are using the winter break to tune out their new gas guns for 2019.

 

[Cajuntransplant]

Gas guns are a lot of fun and can have advantages and disadvantages for running them in a match. I’ve run my 6.5creed bolt gun in only a few more matches than I have run my 6.5 grendel gas gun. My grendel is my favorite rifle by far. Shoots great, runs great, and is a lot easier to move and carry around than my bolt gun setup. I want to run it in more matches and get better with it, but it just takes practice and time. Matches that I have brought it to I have held my own and only thing that hurt me in how I finished the matches I’ve taken it to was me messing up on stages and (one time) some poor spotting. I reload mainly but the grendel shoots the factory 123gr hornady ammo well and I’ve loaded up some sierra 107tmk and hornady 100gr eldm bullets for it and it shoots them all well.

If I were to recommend one for fun and running some matches on occasion with (and you don’t reload) then pickup a valkyrie and run the hornady 88eldm ammo. If you handload, the grendel really comes alive with the 100 and 107 weight bullets I think. Valkyrie still has a little edge in ballistics from the speeds. Can’t really go wrong either way. If you want to run a gas gun and have fun and learn then I say go for it. It’s a blast. Learning to run the gas gun accurately and quickly is a challenge but that’s why i’ve done it too. Wanted to see if I can compete and beat some guys in local area matches. Plus it’s a ton of fun.

 

[aslrookie]

I would go with the Valkyrie. Forget what people are saying about competing with a gas gun. Use whatever you want to use. People also frown upon showing up with a basic 5rd internal magazine fed bolt gun, but those people tend to have the most fun because they don’t care about winning.

You’re there to shoot, improve, spend time with friends, and maybe even win.

I considered the 224 grendel, but I didn’t want to be stuck with having to reload and not have much for outside support if I had an issue.

I have shot local matches with 223 AR with black hills ammo. I still beat people who had bolt guns. Pick a caliber that makes the most sense to you.

 

[Colorado S14]

Given all the factory support behind 224V, I would think to lean that way. I just played around with the Hornady 4DOF Program and maybe I am missing something but is a 6 Grendel really better than a 224V for competition ballistics? From what I could find it seems that 2,700fps is a good bogey for a 105 class bullet. If I take a 108gr. ELD-M and compare it to a 224v throwing an 80gr. ELD-M @ 3,000fps in a 10mph full value wind the calculator shows me that the 6G needs an additional 1.5mils of elevation and is basically a wash on wind @ 1,000yds. A 6FR launching the same 108gr. ELD-M at 2850fps is still .5 mil more elevation and only about a .25 mil improvement on wind. Given the cost and the pain of having to form brass are those gains even worth it?

 

[hlee]

I can’t comment on the 22 wild cats, but a 6.5 Grendel AR is a hoot to shoot in competition. Lighter and handier than my 6.5 creedmoor bolt gun. Easier to stay on target too- no bolt to run. I’ve shot both in competition and my scores are about the same with either. At the elevation I shoot, and with the speed of my hand loads, my Grendel runs out of legs at right about 1000 yards, where the 6.5 creedmoor is still kicking along, so there are some points that are literally out of reach. But, I spend less time cycling the bolt and searching for targets using the Grendel, so I make up points in feeling less rushed. There are a lot of reasons why I pay to shoot competitions, and winning is really not one of them. Pick a rifle you what to shoot and take it. Pick a caliber you can buy ammunition for. It sucks to get caught loading for a match at the last minute. With that, I need to go load some ammo for the match this weekend.

 

[Subwrx300]

Yeah, I've been impressed with my Valkyrie gasser compared to my 6.5 bolt gun. Out to 700-800, hit percentage has been very close to the same in prone and barricade shooting. 800-1000+, there is a slight edge to my bolt gun on barricades and it's much easier to spot impact.

Compared to my 6.5CM gas gun, Valkyrie hands down. Both shoot .5-.75 but on a barricade and even shorter prone shots, it's a bitch to stay in the rifle on target with the big brother. 224V is lighter recoiling than my 20" 223 with light loads!

Personally, a gas gun has enough difficulties with recoil and precision already; anything with added recoil over a 224V (or anything light shooting) is a wasted opportunity for better spot of impact or quicker follow-up shot.

Of note, the longer barrels definitely seem to help smooth recoild pusle for softer, smoother recoil. Adding a barricade wedge system would make gas guns a DREAM to shoot (in theory), so I bought two Area 419 Arcalock rails that I'll be testing on a gas gun vs bolt gun, both 26". If it helps a lot, I could see going to a *slightly* heavier recoiling round to make it easier to spot miss/hit and stay smooth on target.

 

[Forward543]

I have been shooting a 5.56x42 in club matches. It shoots fine with a 75eld at 3000fps. Impacts at 800+ are hard to see, but recoil is badass. Build a long barreled valk, shoot more and carry on. I shoot with a brass catcher on, so i loose less brass than with a bolt gun. If tinkering is not your game, get a valk with factory offering and run some volume.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Given the cost and the pain of having to form brass are those gains even worth it?

FWIW there is at least one place selling 22 Grendel formed brass.
The 6 Grendel is a little left out in the cold by all the new heavy high BC .224's we have now. Two years ago when .224's kinda maxed out at 80 grains for commonly available bullets the 6mm had an edge, and it still might if you want to hunt with it too.
But all the end user reports I can find say the 22 Grendel has an average of 150fps over the Valkyrie, which I think is a significant edge. Whether the extra brass work is worth it is an individual preference though.

 

[Constructor]

I have been shooting a 5.56x42 in club matches. It shoots fine with a 75eld at 3000fps. Impacts at 800+ are hard to see, but recoil is badass. Build a long barreled valk, shoot more and carry on. I shoot with a brass catcher on, so i loose less brass than with a bolt gun. If tinkering is not your game, get a valk with factory offering and run some volume.

I have some 22" TAC 6 barrels coming and some guys talking about trying them. With 95s and 105s at 2800 they may be a little easier to spot.

 

[Billiam1211]

I've contemplated running my gas gun in a local match quite a bit. My local matches go to 600 yards so range is certainly well within the capabilities of all the rifles I own. My biggest issue is that my main match rifle is a Tikka Tac A1 that shoots 1/4 MOA from a bench all day. I've been competing with my Tikka all last year and did surprisingly better than I thought I would. The gas gun I have is a build I did that's a M5E1 in 308 Win with a Criterion 24-inch bull barrel. With my M5E1 I can shoot 3/4 MOA groups, BUT those groups are only when I'm absolutely on my best performance where as with my Tikka I shoot 1/2 MOA on a bad day.

My biggest concern is whether I should give up the razors edge accuracy that I have with my bolt gun for the speed of the gas gun. I'm thinking about starting the season with my bolt gun and depending on my performance switching to the gas gun for the later matches, but in the end it's all for fun as mentioned above. Below are some pictures of groups with both rifles.

The Tikka groups are shot at 200 and 300 yards. 300 yards is off center due to a 15-20 mph cross wind. The M5E1 groups pictured are both 100 yard groups.

 

[450AR]

You can get sierra 95 TMK's going 3000fps in a 26 inch 6mmGrendel using CFE or 2000-mr.