M193 Ball is spec'd at 3,165 fps, so if the OP is claiming 3100 to 3200fps out of this Nosler load, I don't see the difference in velocity between them.
Still no report from OP on what the actual twist of the barrel is though...
AR15 keyholing
- Thread starter Slim Chance
- Start date
M193 Ball is spec'd at 3,165 fps, so if the OP is claiming 3100 to 3200fps out of this Nosler load, I don't see the difference in velocity between them.
Still no report from OP on what the actual twist of the barrel is though...
Especially when the OP was intending to build a "precision" (in his words) semi-auto.
All,
Even though we know little about the barrel, we do know it shoots factory ammo; and, we know it does not shoot the OP's hand load. This leads us to suspect a defective hand load and/or a defective bullet does it not? If the barrel was indeed defective would it not likely distort both factory and hand loaded ammunition? Perhaps there are exceptions, but seems to me the likely issue is the hand load. It would be interesting to see results with the factory ammunition somewhere in the 300 yard arena as not all bullets begin to fly erratically and begin to tumble at the same distance. If the factory ammunition was suffering the same fate as hand loads then the barrel would be clearly suspect.
Even though we know little about the barrel, we do know it shoots factory ammo; and, we know it does not shoot the OP's hand load. This leads us to suspect a defective hand load and/or a defective bullet does it not? If the barrel was indeed defective would it not likely distort both factory and hand loaded ammunition? Perhaps there are exceptions, but seems to me the likely issue is the hand load. It would be interesting to see results with the factory ammunition somewhere in the 300 yard arena as not all bullets begin to fly erratically and begin to tumble at the same distance. If the factory ammunition was suffering the same fate as hand loads then the barrel would be clearly suspect.
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While I suspect you're right, the handloads and the factory ammo the OP was shooting used 2 different bullets of the same mass. Correct me if I'm wrong but the 55gr ball ammo (assuming m193) has a boat tail. This could explain why the factory ammo is stable at the short range the OP was shooting. We really need data from 150+ yards to rule anything out.
I really want to defend the OP from jackasses coming on here to poke fun at him rather than helping. However, his silence is bordering on infuriating. A few dozen posts from people trying to help and he hasn't come one here to answer any questions.
Wrong! Those that do not know put this crap out, a 55grain bullet will often fire very well from a barrel with a 1:8 twist. Is this post based on actual experience, or just a conversation with some mall ninja's in Los Angeles?
My 16", 1/8 shoots 55s VERY well!
Correct about the OP's lack of more input, and not ans ANY questions in a thread he started.
He could also be out of town on this holiday weekend.
I have 3 sons who are multi-tour, combat vets-They're coming in for a big BBQ today.....
Best to all,
LG
Correct about the OP's lack of more input, and not ans ANY questions in a thread he started.
He could also be out of town on this holiday weekend.
I have 3 sons who are multi-tour, combat vets-They're coming in for a big BBQ today.....
Best to all,
LG
LOL-You posted the errors, it will be pointed out-Learn to deal with it, or learn to do research with 'hands-on'. Choice is yours-
You, appear to be the 'thin-skinned' one here.
LG
Plus-The OP has been on today(5-25-14)and left no updates in the thread he started.
Just an FYI to all--
LG
I forgot to mention one more thing: Take off your muzzle brake and see if you've got a build-up of copper between the end of the barrel and the muzzle brake body. If so, that build up could be causing your performance problems.
What makes the above post weird, to say the least is the following post from our "new" ballistic expert:
"""I have a great budget build that I have been impressed with: PSA upper with a CHF 20 inch barrel on an Anderson lower. Put a Geiselle SSA-E in it, a VLTOR A5 recoil system (buffer, spring, tube), and topped it with a Trijicon 3-9x40 Accupoint scope. The rifle cost about $1100 and the scope/mount was $650. It is more accurate than I am and at my range I hit the 600 yard steel plate no problem all day with crappy 55 grain Wolf Gold ammo off bench and sandbag.
Even my 98 pound girlfriend can ring the 300 yard steel all day her first time shooting a rifle.
Rifle length gas + a quality, properly balanced, buffer system makes for a REALLY SOFT shooting rifle.
Sure, it's not as pretty as my Noveske Afghan or LWRC M6A2, but it shoots just as well if not better."""
---He's shooting wolf ammo, no handloads, 55grain at that!! It appears he has gone from shooting wolf ammo, to in just four days, a hand loading expert, so much so, he is willing to rag on a guy for shooting--you guessed it, 55GRAIN BULLETS!! What a dwarf.
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At 61 years of age, the fact that you spent your Memorial Day calling people names on the Internet is really sad. I spent it enjoying time with family and friends. Maybe if you were nicer to people you wouldn't be such a sad, lonely man who spends his holidays behind a keyboard needlessly bashing people anonymously on the Internet.
This is the third thread you have come in and decided to attack me personally.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...t-disabled-prior-gi-landings.html#post3106996
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ar-15-mid-rage-sniper-system.html#post3132722
It also appears after he has trouble getting along with others.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/bear-pit/249016-lethal-injection-fail-2.html#post3095947
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/bear-pit/249016-lethal-injection-fail.html#post3094858
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/bear-pit/215101-how-hide-has-changed-3.html#post2758889
So, whether I am a ballistics expert as you claim is very debateable, but whether you are a complete douchebag clearly is not. I mean, I'm not even the first one to call you that exact thing:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/bear-pit/215101-how-hide-has-changed-3.html#post2758886
Have a nice Memorial day.
My guess would be that something's going on near the muzzle; with either a bad crown, or some sort of bullet strike on a muzzle device. The flat base tipping vs the boat tail flying straight might narrow this down to a crown issue.
Greg
Greg
hunterb I'm sure you spent memorial day with "friends", I'd be surprised if you weren't in San Francisco. A little fella like you jumping others for using a 55 grain bullet in their 1-8 twist barrel (your expertise was overwhelming), but at the same time posting how great your AR shoots with 55 grain Wolf ammo is a conundrum, are you bipolar? I realize some of the rides in Disney Land have a "you must be at least this high" sign, so I'm sure you weren't there over memorial day, unless you were wearing one of the seven dwarf outfits, could it have been Dopey? I couldn't help but notice you have failed to address why you think a 1-8 twist can't shoot 55grain bullets, and why you shoot Wolf 55 grain ammo from your own AR-cowardice, or is it just to big an issue for a little fella?
I just read three pages of argument and name calling over something the OP didn't even post picture proof of existing.
It is no wonder the OP has not posted here again.
If it key-holed with all bullets/loads all you experts could probably zero in on a culprit. In this case, without actually being hands-on, I would say none of you really have a clue. I don't and won't even begin to advance a theory (mine or yours) because it is just one of those "weird science" happenings. Have any of you who are so intrigued (and miffed) even PM'd the OP to get any additional info? Maybe he found his issue and was just to afraid to post it here because some of you question his manhood with comments like "you bought a no-name barrel?" bullshit. MOST barrels don't have a fuck'n name stamped on them once they are finished!!!! Hell, GS table guys will usually tell you anything to sell their stuff.
I know it is usually the simple things that I "fix" last.
I ALWAYs see the same names in this particular forum and they are ALWAYs belittling others and trying to dazzle us with their "expertise". To you guys I say "Get over yourself!".
It is no wonder the OP has not posted here again.
If it key-holed with all bullets/loads all you experts could probably zero in on a culprit. In this case, without actually being hands-on, I would say none of you really have a clue. I don't and won't even begin to advance a theory (mine or yours) because it is just one of those "weird science" happenings. Have any of you who are so intrigued (and miffed) even PM'd the OP to get any additional info? Maybe he found his issue and was just to afraid to post it here because some of you question his manhood with comments like "you bought a no-name barrel?" bullshit. MOST barrels don't have a fuck'n name stamped on them once they are finished!!!! Hell, GS table guys will usually tell you anything to sell their stuff.
I know it is usually the simple things that I "fix" last.
I ALWAYs see the same names in this particular forum and they are ALWAYs belittling others and trying to dazzle us with their "expertise". To you guys I say "Get over yourself!".
Pawprint and anyone else getting in on it cut the shit. We have gotten so many mod alerts over the past few days we are just going to start banning people so if you want to try us then go right ahead. The inmates aren't taking over the asylum again.
Yes, I read his original post. I also read several of his follow-on posts, just to make sure I reached the same level of understanding to which you elude. But I'm still scratching my head. I can't see where my question would cause such a questioning attitude from you. Perhaps you can help me?
Most respectfully,
1smalljohnson
Just a few thoughts .Have you looked down the barrel to make sure it actually has rifling in it ? Wouldn't be the first time one passed a step in the manufacturing .Also are you sure its a .224 barrel and not maybe a 6mm barrel ?
Guys,
I had not posted regarding this rifle due to the fact that I had not had a chance to return to the range. Yes it is rifled and the twist is 1/8. I returned to the range yesterday and fired some hoarded Hornady factory 55 grain ammo as well as some I had loaded with 55 grain Ballistic Tips. I got decent groups of around 1.25 inches at 100 yards. No tumbling on this outing. I am certain something is up with the ammo, I just don't know what. As soon as I can get to the range with a bolt action 223 and my chronograph I intend to investigate further.
I never intended this to be a benchrest rifle. I just wanted a medium range critter killer. I think it has potential in that role.
For those who decry my lack of time on here, I work third shift and have two jobs. I often visit for a few minutes without much time to post.
I had not posted regarding this rifle due to the fact that I had not had a chance to return to the range. Yes it is rifled and the twist is 1/8. I returned to the range yesterday and fired some hoarded Hornady factory 55 grain ammo as well as some I had loaded with 55 grain Ballistic Tips. I got decent groups of around 1.25 inches at 100 yards. No tumbling on this outing. I am certain something is up with the ammo, I just don't know what. As soon as I can get to the range with a bolt action 223 and my chronograph I intend to investigate further.
I never intended this to be a benchrest rifle. I just wanted a medium range critter killer. I think it has potential in that role.
For those who decry my lack of time on here, I work third shift and have two jobs. I often visit for a few minutes without much time to post.
Nothing wrong with that man, don't let a handful of hiders run you off. Enjoy what you can, when you can and report your findings.
For my part/remark-I apologize.
I all to often forget those 2 jobs/no dayz off raising my kids, time of my life.
Respectfully,
LG
I haven't been offended or run off. I do appreciate the responses and the help. If I get keyhoeling in the bolt action rifle, then I will suspect the bullets.
Considering the 55 grain bullet weight, what big difference would one expect? Since the 1/12 twist common to many .223 bolt guns will stabilize 55 grain ammunition, I would assume such a bolt gun would stabilize the OP's bullet too, unless the bullet was defective.
Since the OP was trying to troubleshoot a stability problem and his suspect barrel is allegedly 1/8, I was simply pointing out the possibility that his bolt action barrel would most likely be of a different twist rate and needs to take this into consideration. When troubleshooting ALL variables must be considered if one is to find out the truth of the matter. It is best to only change 1 variable at a time in this process of elimination. Going to a bolt gun with a different twist and barrel length will change several variables at once so it is harder to fully eliminate possibilities. Simply pointing this out as a reminder to the OP.
Facts make it certain this is not the issue, think about it. If the bore was not rifled and/or .243 caliber the 55 grain factory loads would come out of such a barrel tumbling end over end. These bullet are instead stable, flying nose-on, which means the bore is indeed rifled and the bore diameter appears to be proper.
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Look at what the outcomes can be with the introduction of another rifle no matter what the twist when shooting the factory and hand loaded ammunition as earlier tested. Since all .223 twists from one in twelve to one in seven will accommodate 55 grain bullets what I want to know is what could be the "big" difference as you described. The expected result would be the factory load will be stable and the hand load may or may not be stable. If the hand loading was stable it would suggest a bad gun show barrel, or incompatibility of handload with the OP's upper receiver as fitted to barrel extension. On the other hand, if the hand load did not stabilize from the latter test it would indicate a hand loading/bullet issue. Don't over think it.
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There are a a few posters here like Greg and 1SMALLJOHNSON who have a lot of experience with this topic. They suspect bullet distortion, as do I, since this is what would cause the result as described. If we look at where and how the distortion could come about it becomes clear that if it is a barrel issue it may have something to do with feeding ramps damaging the bullet, such as from a mismatched A2 barrel extension and M4 upper receiver, throat damage, or muzzle damage. If it's a bullet issue the problem is the bullet is defective in who knows what manner. If it's a hand loading issue it could be a problem with neck tension, or seating. The simplest way to trouble shoot would be to just shoot another brand of factory 55 grain ammunition as well as another lot of the Nosler's. The OP's idea of shooting ammunition from another rifle is a good one too. BTW, insufficient neck tension on the hand load could exasperate bullet distortion from mismatched feed ramps from upper to barrel extension or bad feed ramp angle. In other words the problem could be with barrel and hand load compatibility.
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The only "big difference" would be how he would interpret his test results. Maybe I worded that wrong. Only trying to help the OP--not questioning anything you said. If he had a load that somehow (I can't imagine how) would not be stable with 1/8 but did fine with 1/12 he could come to the conclusion he had a bad 1/8 barrel when it was actually the load afterall.
As with many threads here on the hide, this one has veered slightly into the theoretical. Granted some of that is due to lack of new data to analyze, and not totally unwelcome as I like thought experiments, but I'd like to know how neck tension or seating issues could cause a bullet that would be otherwise stable in a given barrel configuration to be so badly UNstable. Fill me in?
FWIW, I had a .223 barrel in an AR that was chambered badly off-center (.010) and there were no keyholes, just slightly large groups (1.5"). At this point the retarded bullet explanation (or developmentally disabled if you want to be PC) has replaced my previous thought of a skewed crown as my personal pet theory. Though I still think a damaged crown and flat base bullets could be a bad combo.
[MENTION=101683]Slim Chance[/MENTION]; you've got to throw the dogs a bone here. Pictures of your targets at least.
FWIW, I had a .223 barrel in an AR that was chambered badly off-center (.010) and there were no keyholes, just slightly large groups (1.5"). At this point the retarded bullet explanation (or developmentally disabled if you want to be PC) has replaced my previous thought of a skewed crown as my personal pet theory. Though I still think a damaged crown and flat base bullets could be a bad combo.
[MENTION=101683]Slim Chance[/MENTION]; you've got to throw the dogs a bone here. Pictures of your targets at least.
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As with many threads here on the hide, this one has veered slightly into the theoretical. Granted some of that is due to lack of new data to analyze, and not totally unwelcome as I like thought experiments, but I'd like to know how neck tension or seating issues could cause a bullet that would be otherwise stable in a given barrel configuration to be so badly UNstable. Fill me in?
FWIW, I had a .223 barrel in an AR that was chambered badly off-center (.010) and there were no keyholes, just slightly large groups (1.5"). At this point the retarded bullet explanation (or developmentally disabled if you want to be PC) has replaced my previous thought of a skewed crown as my personal pet theory. Though I still think a damaged crown and flat base bullets could be a bad combo.
[MENTION=101683]Slim Chance[/MENTION]; you've got to throw the dogs a bone here. Pictures of your targets at least.
Insufficient neck tension and/or insufficient bullet seating will cause the bullet to distort off cartridge axis upon bullet tip contacting feed ramp as cartridge is being fed to chamber.This bullet, which is no longer concentric to case neck, is forced to comply with bore axis and upon leaving bore it may or may not right itself. I shoot the 53 grain Sierra flat base bullet in 100 yard reduced course events. I pay a lot of attention to proper neck tension, seating depth, and concentricity of bullet to case neck for this bullet to be viable in rapid fire strings, even though I have feed ramps exclusive to barrel extension. It is not an issue in single loading stages.
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A very good point. However, If the bullets still keyhole, it would quickly point to a bullet problem.
An update of sorts:
I managed to get to the range with the bolt gun for just a few minutes. Apparently my Remington is affected by the trigger recall. I chambered the first round and the trigger would not move. When I opened the bolt to remove the round, the gun fired. It was still on the bags, so no harm was done. I know that my military ball ammo groups without keyholeing. I know that Hornady TAP ammo does not keyhole. This points to the ammo as the problem. I do appreciate the comments and advice.
I am certain that I can find a load that works in my AR15, but it may be a bit before I can get back to the range. Gonna take the boy to Florida and I have a benefit pistol match to shoot in after that. And if anyone has a factory Remington trigger to sell, let me know.
I managed to get to the range with the bolt gun for just a few minutes. Apparently my Remington is affected by the trigger recall. I chambered the first round and the trigger would not move. When I opened the bolt to remove the round, the gun fired. It was still on the bags, so no harm was done. I know that my military ball ammo groups without keyholeing. I know that Hornady TAP ammo does not keyhole. This points to the ammo as the problem. I do appreciate the comments and advice.
I am certain that I can find a load that works in my AR15, but it may be a bit before I can get back to the range. Gonna take the boy to Florida and I have a benefit pistol match to shoot in after that. And if anyone has a factory Remington trigger to sell, let me know.
Somebody send this man a trigger! I have no spares or I would, watch the for sale section here
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
I keep failing to remember that the scientific method requires that only one variable be tested at a time. One tests a new rifle by using ammunition of known quality. Once the rifle is 'proven', one moves on to load development.
Since performance is proven with the 'known good' ammunition, the likelihood of a bad rifle becomes slim. The load development test loads swing more squarely into question.
I would simply skip to the chase. Buy a different bullet and restart load development. Save the old bullets for when the wolf is at the door and keyholing is not a critical issue.
Greg
Since performance is proven with the 'known good' ammunition, the likelihood of a bad rifle becomes slim. The load development test loads swing more squarely into question.
I would simply skip to the chase. Buy a different bullet and restart load development. Save the old bullets for when the wolf is at the door and keyholing is not a critical issue.
Greg
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Greg,
Very good point. I just wanted to see how this ammo shot from a known accurate rifle before I got out the bullet puller to get my prepped and primed brass back. I am off till wednesday, so if anyone in NW Georgia wants to go shooting, let me know.
Very good point. I just wanted to see how this ammo shot from a known accurate rifle before I got out the bullet puller to get my prepped and primed brass back. I am off till wednesday, so if anyone in NW Georgia wants to go shooting, let me know.
