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are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

#51
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

If the insinuation is that a handler could lie.....well, yes it's possible.

However if you were motivated enough and trained for years to be the best officer you could and then earned your way into a K9 unit. What type of arrest do you think would be worth risking your credibility and ending your career?

We can't make arrests or lock people up on a dog indicating. All it does is allow us to now see what the dog is indicating on. If for some reason you had a dirty cop that said his dog hit on the car, then doesn't find anything.....what was gained? Nothing. It's just wasted time.
 
#52
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: motodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">shank thats some funny shit right there.but on a serious note when i have been pulled over and ive been pulled over alot.i have usually found that if your polite to the cops or <span style="font-weight: bold">hypos</span> or whatever it is you call them that your chances of getting a ticket go down. </div></div>

CcUFH.png


That's a different subject altogether ...
 
#53
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the insinuation is that a handler could lie.....well, yes it's possible.

However if you were motivated enough and trained for years to be the best officer you could and then earned your way into a K9 unit. What type of arrest do you think would be worth risking your credibility and ending your career?

We can't make arrests or lock people up on a dog indicating. All it does is allow us to now see what the dog is indicating on. If for some reason you had a dirty cop that said his dog hit on the car, then doesn't find anything.....what was gained? Nothing. It's just wasted time. </div></div>


Thanks for the clarification.. and more importantly your service and people like you to our communities. Cheers.
 
#54
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to get a good laugh when Lonewolf pulls over a hide member. </div></div>

Actually, you would be in pretty good hands. I am one of the guys other officers call when they have a firearms law question, and you are more likely to get a warning from me than a traffic citation.

So you are less likely to get questioned about your guns and probably just get reminded to fix that headlight you have had out for the last two months.
 
#55
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to get a good laugh when Lonewolf pulls over a hide member. </div></div>

Actually, you would be in pretty good hands. I am one of the guys other officers call when they have a firearms law question, and you are more likely to get a warning from me than a traffic citation.

So you are less likely to get questioned about your guns and probably just get reminded to fix that headlight you have had out for the last two months. </div></div>

I'd tell LoneWolf that the 300 lb. sweaty woman riding in my truck had drugs in her cooch then sit back and enjoy the show.
 
#56
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shankster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
zivwt.jpg
</div></div>

This is exactly what I was thinking. If you piss him off.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Actually, you would be in pretty good hands. I am one of the guys other officers call when they have a firearms law question, and you are more likely to get a warning from me than a traffic citation.

So you are less likely to get questioned about your guns and probably just get reminded to fix that headlight you have had out for the last two months. </div></div>


I was talking about a member knowing who are and being like "dude will you sign my NF"?

...I'd let you sign my scope John, I would.


For the rest of you people. Stop going out of your way to be a dick to cops.
 
#57
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shankster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not like the dog can testify.</div></div>The dog will likely also protect his career.
grin.gif


Between the years 824 and 1845 there were at least 144 recorded prosecutions resulting in the execution or excommunication of animal criminals. Until recently, when a domesticated animal injured or killed a human being it was to be arrested and jailed. The judge of the district would then appoint an attorney who was charged with the duty of defending the accused.

In 1546 the French Parliament ordered the execution of a cow, which was first hanged and then burned at the stake. In 1906 in a small Swiss village a man and his son, accompanied by their dog, robbed a householder and during the robbery a man was killed. The two men were sentenced to life terms; but the dog was condemned to death because, the court decreed, it was the chief culprit without whose complicity the crime would have been impossible.

Of course law enforcement dogs already know all this.
laugh.gif
 
#58
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

Right to resist an unlawful arrest? Depends on the state and circumstances, but any defense lawyer worth their salt would never simply say "I comply, I have nothing to hide," especially given the history of planted evidence and shakedowns in certain communities. I would hope a competent defense attorney would have better advice.
 
#59
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

I have serious concerns with the advice given that citizens should keep their mouth shut and do whatever told without question and then hope the courts do the right thing after the fact. Law Enforcement officers are sworn to Protect & Serve ALL citizens, and yes that includes those guilty of crimes. A badge does NOT entitle an officer to do what ever they wish without accountability or objection except by courts or other LE. It's a persons civic duty to object to any public servant who is not lawfully carrying out their duties. I have deep respect for all members of LE from the Federal to the local levels, but... I will never stand idly by and allow a tyrant with a badge to oppress others simply because they think the shield entitles them to a pass unless revoked by the courts. And if an officer pulls his gun simply because someone requested a 2nd officer present and without a real threat then I highly doubt that officer would behave any better even with compliance. Guy's like that are the same as wife beaters that said "You made me do it." and it doesn't matter what was done because the intent was all the same in the end.
 
#60
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tube snake boogie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right to resist an unlawful arrest? Depends on the state and circumstances,</div></div>How does it depend on the state and the circumstances? <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tube snake boogie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but any defense lawyer worth their salt would never simply say "I comply, I have nothing to hide," especially given the history of planted evidence and shakedowns in certain communities. I would hope a competent defense attorney would have better advice. </div></div>Well, it wasn't my advice, and that's not what the lawyer said, but it would seem to me that you are already arguing against yourself given the first sentence in your post. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have serious concerns with the advice given that citizens should keep their mouth shut and do whatever told without question and then hope the courts do the right thing after the fact. </div></div>In some jurisdictions you can, and will, be arrested and charged if you disobey a police officer.
 
#62
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have serious concerns with the advice given that citizens should keep their mouth shut and do whatever told without question and then hope the courts do the right thing after the fact.</div></div>

I don't believe anyone said to follow orders without question. However in most cases if you don't follow the orders of a sworn officer, things will get bad for you fast.

We have a huge problem currently because while you do have the right to resist unlawful arrest, very few of the citizens who find themselves in these situations have taken the time to educate themselves on the intricacies of the law. I frequently run into lawyers who don't know the law unless their paralegals have done the research for them. They have no ability to make split second decisions at the scene.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Law Enforcement officers are sworn to Protect & Serve ALL citizens, and yes that includes those guilty of crimes.</div></div>

Incorrect. Officer "Protect and Serve" the PUBLIC, not the individual. If it was the criminal that we were duty bound to protect then we would never be able to use force to stop a crime or apprehend a violent criminal.

It is a huge misconception that officers serve the individuals. In fact most decisions on an administrative level in a police department is about how to spread resources throughout the community as a whole.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A badge does NOT entitle an officer to do what ever they wish without accountability or objection except by courts or other LE. It's a persons civic duty to object to any public servant who is not lawfully carrying out their duties. I have deep respect for all members of LE from the Federal to the local levels, but... I will never stand idly by and allow a tyrant with a badge to oppress others simply because they think the shield entitles them to a pass unless revoked by the courts.</div></div>

And there is a very good chance that if you actively resist you will be seriously injured or killed. Not only that, but if you did not have 100% of the facts at the time, then the courts will most likely find you guilty and you will get some time to think about how our "Justice" system has evolved from the days of our Founding Fathers.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And if an officer pulls his gun simply because someone requested a 2nd officer present and without a real threat then I highly doubt that officer would behave any better even with compliance. Guy's like that are the same as wife beaters that said "You made me do it." and it doesn't matter what was done because the intent was all the same in the end. </div></div>

If you are responding to my comments earlier, I think you need to re-read them.

In fact, I think it may be a good idea for you to sign up for a couple "ride alongs" in an area that sees a good deal of violent crime. I have seen several anti-police "community leaders" change their tune after they ride shotgun for a night and see how their "community" acts outside of the churches and meeting halls.
 
#63
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

To further address Broker's concern......

We had a situation not so long ago that started in my city with one of my fellow officers and ended up being upheld by the Indiana Supreme Court.

Barnes v. State of Indiana

What occurred was officers were called to a domestic violence run and the suspect resisted officers entering his home to speak to and check the welfare of the adult victim. He resisted violently and was arrested and charged.

The case was appealed to the Indiana Supreme Court. They upheld the conviction and issued an opinion. The gist of the opinion is that you should not violently resist police. Sufficient remedies exist in the current day that if you rights are violated you should handle it in court. The reasoning behind this is a citizen resisting will simply bring an escalation of force and result in the citizen being harmed.

Our lawmakers overturned this with a poorly written statute that give you permission to resist if you don't believe police are there legally..

Of course this brings up a couple serious issues:

1. How do you know if police are there legally if you have not taken the time to do your research and evaluate the evidence. You don't get to sit and depose the witnesses that are cited on the search warrant. You don't get time to go to your computer and research recent case law. Few citizens if any realize that laws change EVERY YEAR.

2. If you do resist, the police are not going to stop and leave. They are going to escalate force until the situation is controlled and the person resisting is controlled. If the suspect escalates to deadly force, there is a very good chance they will be killed.

Who does any of this benefit? Lawyers? Family members who get rich of a settlement?

We have to stop and think about this.

Common law held that you have the right to resist unlawful arrest because there was a very good chance that getting imprisoned was a death sentence. Disease and malnutrition were rampant in prisons of the time. This is not so today. Most criminals have a healthier life in prison than they do in their free world.

Anyone who knows me knows my stand on Constitutional Law. I feel in this day and age we have attempted to replace common sense with laws and it has horribly failed. I feel we really need to go back to a set of laws that enables the layman to understand them and successfully defend himself in court. (that doesn't mean always being found not-guilty).

However, resisting the police is going to go bad for anyone who attempts it. It doesn't work well for protestors who cross the line to criminal conduct and it most certainly doesn't work well for the wife beater who thinks he can hide his crimes with the Bill of Rights.

Until we fix our busted justice system, for your own safety I suggest you comply with lawful orders at the scene (you may refuse requests) and fight it out in court.
 
#64
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until we fix our busted justice system, for your own safety I suggest you comply with lawful orders at the scene (you may refuse requests) and fight it out in court. </div></div>

I don't really disagree with most of what you stated. However fighting it out in court is not really a viable option for most people as they don't have the resources to do so. That being the case they essentially are at the mercy of a system that they don't completely understand and probably believe is stacked against them. It is my opinion that this is the underlying sentiment that is causing most people a great deal of angst.

This is further exacerbated by the never ending laws that are enacted or ratified, it is not feasible for a citizen to keep up with them even if they wanted to. As you stated many lawyers are not aware of many of the statues until they research them and it is their job.
 
#65
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im well aware of obstruction Graham... </div></div>Except that what I described isn't obstruction, it's a misdemeanor failure to obey.
 
#66
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't really disagree with most of what you stated. However fighting it out in court is not really a viable option for most people as they don't have the resources to do so.</div></div>

Not so. Remember it's my job to appear in court. I can't tell you how often I have seen middle class people hire a lawyer for a traffic ticket, most will hire a lawyer for misdemeanor charges if they believe they are innocent.

The problem is the courts are choked with people who are guilty, but looking for a loophole. How many times have you heard "take your ticket to court, if the officer doesn't show up, you get off!". It should be "if you were speeding, pay your fine and leave that space on the docket for someone else".
 
#67
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't really disagree with most of what you stated. However fighting it out in court is not really a viable option for most people as they don't have the resources to do so.</div></div>

Not so. Remember it's my job to appear in court. I can't tell you how often I have seen middle class people hire a lawyer for a traffic ticket, most will hire a lawyer for misdemeanor charges if they believe they are innocent.</div></div>

What percentage does that equate to though, is it 70%, 50%, 30%, 10%, or less then that?
 
#69
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

There's a lot here LW, so I'm addressing it as such too make it easier...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have serious concerns with the advice given that citizens should keep their mouth shut and do whatever told without question and then hope the courts do the right thing after the fact.</div></div>

I don't believe anyone said to follow orders without question. However in most cases if you don't follow the orders of a sworn officer, things will get bad for you fast.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: leagle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000">Basically, as I tell my clients, the place to argue with a cop is in court with your lawyer.</span></div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">And I do believe this is you yes?</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #FF0000">4. Never argue with an Officer on the side of the road. You will always be wrong and you can only make matters worse. If you think the officer is acting inappropriately or illegally, pay attention, keep your mouth shut and tell it all to your lawyer. The courtroom is the only place you can successfully argue with an Officer.</span>
</div></div>

We have a huge problem currently because while you do have the right to resist unlawful arrest, very few of the citizens who find themselves in these situations have taken the time to educate themselves on the intricacies of the law. I frequently run into lawyers who don't know the law unless their paralegals have done the research for them. They have no ability to make split second decisions at the scene.
<span style="color: #FF0000">
Lol... And I'm laughing because I agree 110%...</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Law Enforcement officers are sworn to Protect & Serve ALL citizens, and yes that includes those guilty of crimes.</div></div>

Incorrect. Officer "Protect and Serve" the PUBLIC, not the individual. If it was the criminal that we were duty bound to protect then we would never be able to use force to stop a crime or apprehend a violent criminal.

It is a huge misconception that officers serve the individuals. In fact most decisions on an administrative level in a police department is about how to spread resources throughout the community as a whole.
<span style="color: #FF0000">
I disagree. Even criminals are members of the public and as you are sworn to uphold the law that is inclusive of criminals with rights. This comment is not aimed at you or how you perform your duties but others who have taken the opinion that anyone on the other side other than the victim is automatically guilty and does not deserve their rights to be respected. No matter how much you want to play advocate even you know there are some LE out there that abuse the authority of their badge. I am not however advocating that any officer should allow themselves to be placed at unnecessary risk as you too are members of the public with the same equal rights and protection.</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A badge does NOT entitle an officer to do what ever they wish without accountability or objection except by courts or other LE. It's a persons civic duty to object to any public servant who is not lawfully carrying out their duties. I have deep respect for all members of LE from the Federal to the local levels, but... I will never stand idly by and allow a tyrant with a badge to oppress others simply because they think the shield entitles them to a pass unless revoked by the courts.</div></div>

And there is a very good chance that if you actively resist you will be seriously injured or killed. Not only that, but if you did not have 100% of the facts at the time, then the courts will most likely find you guilty and you will get some time to think about how our "Justice" system has evolved from the days of our Founding Fathers.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Agreed. Even more so as I carry concealed and inform every officer up front out of courtesy when pulled over for both of our protection. But... I also know how to approach lawful resistance and have had several conversations with On-Duty Sergeants and Commands by the side of the road after the fact. I've also dealt with officers that thought their will was the law, been arrested even when in compliance, and after I was dismissed with prejudice, but I don't recall the courts, the officer who was suspended without pay, or anyone else paying for the attorney or the time having to deal with it because of an guy with a bad attitude. The only reason I didn't pursue civil retribution which I brought nicely to the Sheriffs attention was because I have numerous friends with KCSD and I know that it would hurt them more than the officer in the long run. It would be nice if other officers arriving on scene would remember that from time to time rather than watching an officer act inappropriately but saying nothing to protect the brotherhood.</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And if an officer pulls his gun simply because someone requested a 2nd officer present and without a real threat then I highly doubt that officer would behave any better even with compliance. Guy's like that are the same as wife beaters that said "You made me do it." and it doesn't matter what was done because the intent was all the same in the end. </div></div>

If you are responding to my comments earlier, I think you need to re-read them.

In fact, I think it may be a good idea for you to sign up for a couple "ride alongs" in an area that sees a good deal of violent crime. I have seen several anti-police "community leaders" change their tune after they ride shotgun for a night and see how their "community" acts outside of the churches and meeting halls.

<span style="color: #FF0000">That was not aimed at you LW. I'm not anti-police and deeply respect all LE if you go back and reread my post LW, so please don't take it that way. I do however have issue with being told to follow all orders and let the courts decide after the fact which has been said by others here in previous posts</span>

</div></div>
 
#70
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im well aware of obstruction Graham... </div></div>Except that what I described isn't obstruction, it's a misdemeanor failure to obey. </div></div>

It might be the local PA's policy, but I've always seen them go for Obstruction here as opposed to Failure to Obey. I'm sure your right though...
 
#71
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im well aware of obstruction Graham... </div></div>Except that what I described isn't obstruction, it's a misdemeanor failure to obey. </div></div>It might be the local PA's policy, but I've always seen them go for Obstruction here as opposed to Failure to Obey. I'm sure your right though... </div></div>I thought you meant obstructing justice. I have also seen city statutes that call it hindering/obstructing a police officer in the performance of his duties. Maybe that's what you were referring to.
 
#72
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Be careful about answers you get on the internet.

Also be careful about where/whom the answers come from. I have seen officers give out wrong advice on several occasions because they did not feel the need to stay current on case law OR were just too lazy to pay attention during the yearly updates.

1. If an officer has reasonable suspicion to stop the vehicle, he can ask you to step out of the vehicle. He can also detain any other occupants of the vehicle (i.e. your passengers cannot decide it's time for them to leave).

2. If an officer asks consent to search your vehicle you may decline. I suggest you do so politely. He may be asking as a formality even though he already has a legal right to search. This is done pretty often.

3. There are piles of reasons why an officer can legally search your vehicle without a warrant or consent.

4. Never argue with an Officer on the side of the road. You will always be wrong and you can only make matters worse. If you think the officer is acting inappropriately or illegally, pay attention, keep your mouth shut and tell it all to your lawyer. The courtroom is the only place you can successfully argue with an Officer.


I know many folks will tell you NEVER to consent to a search. I can tell you that you need to decide that for yourself. There are many situations where allowing a search will get you on your way much quicker than not allowing one. I am a private person and I don't want other folks pawing through my stuff, but I also don't want to be sitting on the road for four hours while a detective gets a search warrant because I kind of look like the guy who robbed that last gas station. </div></div>

LoneWolf, I just wanted to say thanks for your posts on this thread, they are some of the best straight forward advice on the subject I've seen posted in awhile.
 
#73
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im well aware of obstruction Graham... </div></div>Except that what I described isn't obstruction, it's a misdemeanor failure to obey. </div></div>It might be the local PA's policy, but I've always seen them go for Obstruction here as opposed to Failure to Obey. I'm sure your right though... </div></div>I thought you meant obstructing justice. I have also seen city statutes that call it hindering/obstructing a police officer in the performance of his duties. Maybe that's what you were referring to. </div></div>

That's exactly it... Obstructing an Officer from performing their duties. There might though also be an RCW for Failure to Obey as you said...
 
#74
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

if you are really a bonafide lawyer, I find it sad how you conclude most people in the courts are guilty (Your words) are looking for a loophole because that means your clients are also most looking for a loophole? If so, why mock your own clients?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't really disagree with most of what you stated. However fighting it out in court is not really a viable option for most people as they don't have the resources to do so.</div></div>

Not so. Remember it's my job to appear in court. I can't tell you how often I have seen middle class people hire a lawyer for a traffic ticket, most will hire a lawyer for misdemeanor charges if they believe they are innocent.

The problem is the courts are choked with people who are guilty, but looking for a loophole. How many times have you heard "take your ticket to court, if the officer doesn't show up, you get off!". It should be "if you were speeding, pay your fine and leave that space on the docket for someone else". </div></div>
 
#75
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

I guess I must state the obvious, state law varies..<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tube snake boogie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right to resist an unlawful arrest? Depends on the state and circumstances,</div></div>How does it depend on the state and the circumstances?
 
#76
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

actually, it is not that much of a challenge. Winning in small claims multiple times every time and collected the judgment. go to law school, become a lawyer and you will see. of course, I don't recommend the debt! <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until we fix our busted justice system, for your own safety I suggest you comply with lawful orders at the scene (you may refuse requests) and fight it out in court. </div></div>

I don't really disagree with most of what you stated. However fighting it out in court is not really a viable option for most people as they don't have the resources to do so. That being the case they essentially are at the mercy of a system that they don't completely understand and probably believe is stacked against them. It is my opinion that this is the underlying sentiment that is causing most people a great deal of angst.

This is further exacerbated by the never ending laws that are enacted or ratified, it is not feasible for a citizen to keep up with them even if they wanted to. As you stated many lawyers are not aware of many of the statues until they research them and it is their job.
</div></div>
 
#77
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

And if an officer pulls his gun simply because someone requested a 2nd officer present and without a real threat then I highly doubt that officer would behave any better even with compliance. Guy's like that are the same as wife beaters that said "You made me do it." and it doesn't matter what was done because the intent was all the same in the end. [/quote]


What is the intent? I would say those guys acting like that are probably scared and should not be doing this job in the first place. There's a difference between an officer being scared and always pulling his gun and an officer pulling his gun out because he thinks he can because of what he does. Either way, he/she should probably find another job. Just an opinion.
 
#78
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tube snake boogie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if you are really a bonafide lawyer, I find it sad how you conclude most people in the courts are guilty (Your words) are looking for a loophole because that means your clients are also most looking for a loophole? If so, why mock your own clients?</div></div>

Hah. You may want to dig a little deeper into what I have posted here and maybe even take a minute to look at my profile before you make assumptions.

It's MY job to prove to the court beyond a reasonable doubt why the Defendant IS guilty. If I don't believe they are guilty, then I would not have charged them with a crime in the first place.
 
#79
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Vaq</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What is the intent? I would say those guys acting like that are probably scared and should not be doing this job in the first place. There's a difference between an officer being scared and always pulling his gun and an officer pulling his gun out because he thinks he can because of what he does. Either way, he/she should probably find another job. Just an opinion. </div></div>

http://www.odmp.org/

I hear the "probably scared" argument time and time again. In fact I have had armed drug dealers <span style="font-weight: bold">attempt</span> to taunt me into holstering up and going hands on instead of remaining behind cover and holding them at gunpoint until the cavalry arrives.

I prefer to error on the side of caution. There have been more than a handful of times we have executed a felony stop on a vehicle (that means guns drawn) because it matched the description of a getaway car from a crime in the area. It causes the occupants a little bit of concern, but far less concern than my children laying flowers on my casket.
 
#80
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The Vaq said:
What is the intent? I would say those guys acting like that are probably scared and should not be doing this job in the first place. There's a difference between an officer being scared and always pulling his gun and an officer pulling his gun out because he thinks he can because of what he does. Either way, he/she should probably find another job. Just an opinion. </div></div>

http://www.odmp.org/

I hear the "probably scared" argument time and time again. In fact I have had armed drug dealers <span style="font-weight: bold">attempt</span> to taunt me into holstering up and going hands on instead of remaining behind cover and holding them at gunpoint until the cavalry arrives.

I prefer to error on the side of caution. There have been more than a handful of times we have executed a felony stop on a vehicle (that means guns drawn) because it matched the description of a getaway car from a crime in the area. It causes the occupants a little bit of concern, but far less concern than my children laying flowers on my casket. [/

I agree with you whole heartedly. I understand the felony stops and armed suspects. There's plenty of reason to have your gun out. I've done it myself, that's justified. I'm talking about an officer that is constantly pulling his gun or taser out for no justified reason. The scared officer that has no reason to be an officer and should have never made it out of the FTO program because he's going to get someone hurt. On the flip side the public sees this officers actions and that gives the rest of the department a bad rep because word of mouth spreads fast. Especially If someone's recording the whole thing.
Click to expand...
 
#82
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

Hah! yes, I should not have assumed. Since you work for the DA naturally you assume the worst, but that means you spend the bulk of your time prosecuting mostly petty criminals and sad sack bums and drug addicts who are represented mostly by public defenders? I'd like to think that going for the bigger fish, for instance, individuals that engaged in rigging the financial system that brought the US economy to its knees might be more rewarding and consequential?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tube snake boogie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if you are really a bonafide lawyer, I find it sad how you conclude most people in the courts are guilty (Your words) are looking for a loophole because that means your clients are also most looking for a loophole? If so, why mock your own clients?</div></div>

Hah. You may want to dig a little deeper into what I have posted here and maybe even take a minute to look at my profile before you make assumptions.

It's MY job to prove to the court beyond a reasonable doubt why the Defendant IS guilty. If I don't believe they are guilty, then I would not have charged them with a crime in the first place.</div></div>
 
#83
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

I think it is funny when people display the same attitude as tube snake here- "isn't there someone out murdering or raping some person, and you are here harrassing me?" Truth is, if LoneWolf or any of us LE had bigger, better fish to fry, we would be doing it.

But I digress. My take on this as a member of a street crimes squad- I almost always ask for the driver and occupants to exit the vehicle (given I have enough officers to accomodate this safely) and almost always ask for consent to search the vehicle. Granted, I do not work dui checkpoints, nor do I write tickets for traffic enforcement.

My targets are almost exclusively drug dealers and/or users, so my ulitmate goal is to find that evidence. I usually ask even if I have already discovered the probable cause necessary to search. If I do have not built the necessary probable cause and the driver denies consent, I wish them a safe day and go on to the next one.

Reality is that sometimes bad people get away and our laws exist to protect rights of individuals. There are times we know there is a bad guy in a house, or know there are drugs in a car (or pocket, bag etc.) but we must also play by the rules.

If you are asked to exit a vehicle, the officer most likely has a valid reason (from their point of view) to ask you to do so. As with all things it is ultimately your choice to obey the request, but realize that asking may just be a formality and you may be exiting regardless of your opinion.

If you feel you are wronged by an officer, there are avenues in which to voice those complaints. In this day and age, most departments(at least where I live and work) are past the good ol' boy stage and will police their own. In court or through that avenue is the best way to deal your concern.

I respect those who do not agree with the mindset of "just do what you are told and take it up in court later". I agree in principle with this opinion, however one must also understand that officers often take action based on facts unknown to the person at the time, facts which they are not (at the time) obligated to let that person know. Just because someone thinks an officer had no right to do something doesn't mean the officer did not have that right. I know that is a frustrating concept for many people, but it is reality.

There are bad cops everywhere, we all know some who have pushed the limits of legality and have lost. But for the vast majority of officers, an arrest is not worth their family, career or freedom, despite what the public seems to think.
 
#84
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

I was at a strip joint with a buddy a few months back, he got hammered, I rarely drink and hadn't that night so I drove his truck.

Got pulled over for "failure to dim," one of those; not my vehicle, not familiar with where all the switches are situations.

The officer had me get out of the vehicle and go sit with him in his car, front seat next to him, and just BS'd with me like we were old high school friends.

I've never even heard of this type of thing, he didn't search me, just immediately had me come back with him and get in the car.

I got bored and started messing around with his shit, asking stupid questions and he finally let me go.

Anyone wanna clarify why the officer would do this?

If he's simply trying to see if I'm intoxicated, there are certainly better ways, we had a shotgun in between us, if i was drunk, and an a-hole, putting me in the front seat next to a loaded weapon isn't exactly wise.

The whole situation left me feeling weird.
 
#86
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, I guess my question is this . . .

What would be the likely scenario if the person in question be if he or she would to say "no" to the search of the vehicle?

Would the officer in charge call for a K9 unit just because the person had said "no". Does refusal to submit to seach become probable cause???
</div></div>

Refusal to search NEVER becomes probable cause and generally can't even be brought up in court without an objection. It is your RIGHT to refuse a search and can't be used against you.

If I think that is going to be an option, then I am probably not going to ask you for consent since a dog hitting on your car is going to be more valuable to me in court than your consent. The dog won't lie. Defendants often do.
</div></div>

Not so fast there.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-...hacker-drug-dog

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animal...1211-1oprv.html

http://www.erowid.org/freedom/police/police_article1.shtml

http://reason.com/archives/2011/02/21/the-mind-of-a-police-dog

There are hundreds of other articles and studies to show that drug sniffing dogs are not nearly as accurate as has been sold to the public, and that, in a good portion of cases, a "hit" has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the dog has or hasn't found something, but with whether the handling officer wants to find something.
 
#87
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jethro21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it is funny when people display the same attitude as tube snake here- "isn't there someone out murdering or raping some person, and you are here harrassing me?" Truth is, if LoneWolf or any of us LE had bigger, better fish to fry, we would be doing it.

But I digress. My take on this as a member of a street crimes squad- I almost always ask for the driver and occupants to exit the vehicle (given I have enough officers to accomodate this safely) and almost always ask for consent to search the vehicle. Granted, I do not work dui checkpoints, nor do I write tickets for traffic enforcement.

My targets are almost exclusively drug dealers and/or users, so my ulitmate goal is to find that evidence. I usually ask even if I have already discovered the probable cause necessary to search. If I do have not built the necessary probable cause and the driver denies consent, I wish them a safe day and go on to the next one.

Reality is that sometimes bad people get away and our laws exist to protect rights of individuals. There are times we know there is a bad guy in a house, or know there are drugs in a car (or pocket, bag etc.) but we must also play by the rules.

If you are asked to exit a vehicle, the officer most likely has a valid reason (from their point of view) to ask you to do so. As with all things it is ultimately your choice to obey the request, but realize that asking may just be a formality and you may be exiting regardless of your opinion.

If you feel you are wronged by an officer, there are avenues in which to voice those complaints. In this day and age, most departments(at least where I live and work) are past the good ol' boy stage and will police their own. In court or through that avenue is the best way to deal your concern.

I respect those who do not agree with the mindset of "just do what you are told and take it up in court later". I agree in principle with this opinion, however one must also understand that officers often take action based on facts unknown to the person at the time, facts which they are not (at the time) obligated to let that person know. Just because someone thinks an officer had no right to do something doesn't mean the officer did not have that right. I know that is a frustrating concept for many people, but it is reality.

There are bad cops everywhere, we all know some who have pushed the limits of legality and have lost. But for the vast majority of officers, an arrest is not worth their family, career or freedom, despite what the public seems to think. </div></div>

Thank you for your insight. But I do have one serious nit to pick.

When acting as an agent of the state, an officer NEVER has a "right" to do anything, but powers presumably granted to him/her. Only private citizens have rights. Ever.
 
#88
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When acting as an agent of the state, an officer NEVER has a "right" to do anything, but powers presumably granted to him/her. Only private citizens have rights. Ever. </div></div>

You forget one small thing. I do not stop being a citizen when I put on my uniform.

My "rights" come from the same place as yours. They are not given to me by a piece of paper, court or another man. They are god given rights. I still have the power, ability and will to protect them with force if necessary.

I work as an agent for the state. I live as a free citizen.
 
#89
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There are hundreds of other articles and studies to show that drug sniffing dogs are not nearly as accurate as has been sold to the public, and that, in a good portion of cases, a "hit" has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the dog has or hasn't found something, but with whether the handling officer wants to find something. </div></div>

If you care to do any research about the training and use of police K9's then just reading the first couple lines of each of those stories will demonstrate the flaws in their premise.

For me to go into WHY would be out of the scope of this thread and get into a little bit of the area I don't wish to discuss on the open web with people I don't know.

I will just leave it with the fact that our Dogs are Regional and National Champions. They are very good at what they do.

We seek Probable Cause, not "beyond a reasonable doubt". That is why it still has to go before a Judge and sometimes Jury.

Guilty people often accuse Police Officers of lying. It's something we learn to deal with.
 
#96
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I work as an agent for the state. I live as a free citizen. </div></div>

Very well put...
 
#97
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

The two times I've been pulled over and been asked to get out/allow a search of my car both were traffic stops and my answers were "Am I under arrest?" 'No' "Then I would prefer to remain in my vehicle officer" and 'Can I search your car' "No sir, I am not permitting a search of myself or my vehicle without probable cause or a warrant". Both times the officers left it be and drove off shortly after. Yes, they could have done both if I had actually broken a law, when you get a traffic ticket you are technically under arrest, however I honestly think it comes down entirely to how you handle yourself in the situation; being calm, polite, and respectful(not being a condescending "I know the law better than you") is going to determine how you're treated. Granted, I've yet to meet a cop here in GA who was anything but respectful and polite so my views are slightly skewed.

You have to choose for yourself at what level you stand up for what you believe to be your rights and stick to them, no one can tell you what choice to make, when it comes down to it, it's your decision that matters.
 
#98
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

I wouldn't want to get out of the car on a traffic stop simply because it seems like a lot of risks go up when you leave the car.

Getting tased by a cop or hit by a car are two that come to mind, getting arrested another.

Just from watching youtube it seems getting out of the car is no good for the motorist during a traffic stop. Better to make the best of a bad situation and be polite, try to stay in the vehicle if that is allowed by law, and accept the ticket/pay the fine if possible.

 
#99
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When acting as an agent of the state, an officer NEVER has a "right" to do anything, but powers presumably granted to him/her. Only private citizens have rights. Ever. </div></div>

You forget one small thing. I do not stop being a citizen when I put on my uniform.

My "rights" come from the same place as yours. They are not given to me by a piece of paper, court or another man. They are god given rights. I still have the power, ability and will to protect them with force if necessary.

I work as an agent for the state. I live as a free citizen. </div></div>

I should have stated my argument more clearly, but I fear that late nights and coherent writing no longer coincide for me.

Even as an agent of the state, you have no rights that are any different than mine, which is what Jethro21 suggested when he wrote "Just because someone thinks an officer had no right to do something <span style="font-weight: bold">doesn't mean the officer did not have that right</span>." An officer <span style="font-weight: bold">NEVER</span> has a <span style="font-weight: bold">right</span> to do anything beyond what I might be able to do.

Though you are absolutely correct in saying that you have the same rights as any other citizen, none of those are conferred on you by virtue of being a LEO, nor does being an LEO dictate that you somehow have any rights that surpass my own.

For example, I haven't the <span style="font-weight: bold">right</span> to ask you to get out of your car for any reason whatsoever (the right to free speech aside). Neither do you, even as a LEO. It is the <span style="font-weight: bold">powers</span> granted to you by the state which gives you the ability to ask me to get out of my car (and perhaps force me if there is sufficient cause to do so), not any sort of right.

This may seem like splitting hairs, but it is an important distinction which should be made at every opportunity.
 
#100
Re: are you required to exit vehicle if asked by cops

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This may seem like splitting hairs, but it is an important distinction which should be made at every opportunity. </div></div>

I agree with you to a point. However only to the point that the "rights" we are discussing are the rights of free men.

In that context a law enforcement officer does not have a "right" to ask you to exit a vehicle. However he does have the power to request that you exit the vehicle and the US Supreme Court Rulings to back that up and to forcibly remove you if you fail to comply.

While I feel there is a distinction, the individual testing this may not immediately see the difference if they end up facing the pavement in handcuffs.

This is why I return to my original suggestion that while you are free to refuse requests from an officer, you will be better off complying with his orders and contesting the actions later in court. It just works better for everyone.
 
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