Area 419 Hellfire - Suppressor Mounts do not actually use the Tapers

[Wall_Element]

I am a bit surprised to learn that Area 419's Hellfire system has abandoned the use of mated tapered surfaces for their suppressor mounts. Area 419 is well known for their offerings in the PRS and precision shooting world, but I came to them for a low profile and light weight universal suppressor mounting system that offered the advantages of tapers including concentricity, repeatability and lockup.

Originally, the Hellfire suppressor mounts did use the tapers - but according to Area 419 the tapered surfaces which are still machined into the mounts no longer mate. So you gain none of the advantages of a taper from the tapered surfaces mating.

Instead, you add parts but still are simply relying upon a square shoulder.

In the case of adapting your TBAC to Area419, you go from a tapered system that was designed to provide concentrity/repeatability and rely upon square shoulder all the while adding parts which runs the risk of stacking tolerances, etc.

I first read this elsewhere, tested my own and found this to be the case with the parts I have. Now Area 419 has confirmed this.

Am I the only one not aware of this? I cannot find this information anywhere in the materials from Area 419.

 

[Cynical]

Did not know, but I want to know why now.

 

[BigPrince]

Why repost this again on your third post?

 

[AllenOne1]

Why repost this again on your third post?

Has this been posted before? I've never seen it.

 

[BigPrince]

This was posted previously in another thread. Only 3 posts OP has made are about this.

Might as well tag @flyer1a again

 

[AllenOne1]

This was posted previously in another thread. Only 3 posts OP has made are about this.
View attachment 7731151

Might as well tag @flyer1a again

Feels strongly about it I guess. Have to admit I'm not happy about it if it is true. Seems like a bait and switch play by a company that is better than that.

 

[LawnMM]

 

[alfmoonspace]

Are you having issues? Baffle strikes and such? What do you want AREA 419 to do? Buy back your stuff?

I haven’t seen a huge issue in shift but no matter what I confirm zero when I take off and put my suppressor on. I always confirm zero, regardless of what I’m doing.

 

[Wall_Element]

Why repost this again on your third post?

I couldn't make it my 1131st post.

New information. Previously I was able to reproduce the results demonstrating this. Now there is confirmation from Area 419, apparently.

I'd welcome anyone to offer actual facts and relevant discussion.

To those that have invested in this or would consider doing so, it seems important information. I know it is for me. It seemingly offers a possible explanation the reports of compromised repeatability, for which we did not have root cause. Afterall, one of the most important goals of a taper, especially as it pertains to precision shooting, is repeatability. Now we know there are no tapers mating with Area 419 suppressor mounts.

 

[Rodo]

So if you cannot find this anywhere on Area 419, how have they confirmed it?
FYI, I copied this from their site just now:
“Universal adapter uses a taper surface similar to a machine tool for the absolute best alignment with the muzzle threads.”

 

[Holliday]

Interesting. I take my Ultra 9 off and on all the time without ever reconfirming zero. Even during hunting season when I don’t change anything else......

I once unscrewed my Ultra 9 from my 30-06 (now a 280ai) and put it in the safe. I then ran over 1000 rounds of .308 and AR-15 rounds through it(the Ultra 9). When hunting season came around again I screwed the can on and checked zero for the upcoming season. Almost one year later and 1000+ rounds through the can and the zero was EXACTLY where it was when I put the rifle in the safe.

 

[Wall_Element]

So if you cannot find this anywhere on Area 419, how have they confirmed it?
FYI, I copied this from their site just now:
“Universal adapter uses a taper surface similar to a machine tool for the absolute best alignment with the muzzle threads.”

Yes sir, that's what their site says.

 

[Rodo]

Yes sir, that's what their site says.

But you said they have confirmed it(not using tapers), “apparently”.
How have they confirmed it?

 

[LawnMM]

Who's having repeatability issues? If the taper doesn't touch why cut it into the universal adapter? Certainly it's more costly in tool time and material to do it that way than a flat shoulder mount.

Literally the first anyone's heard of this but you seem to think it's a settled issue

 

[drglock]

This must be false information then.

I never store my rifle with the TBAC Ultra 9 still attached. Won’t fit in my safe. I never worry about rechecking zero. Done it in the past and it was close enough to not worry about.

 

[Krob95]

Oh boy…. I am not reading your dissertation. Have you any communications regarding this from Area 419 “confirming” the change??

 

[Wall_Element]

But you said they have confirmed it(not using tapers), “apparently”.
How have they confirmed it?

Their representatives confirmed it when contacted.

Who's having repeatability issues?

A few examples of those reports:
- Unpredictable POI shifts when adapting TBAC to Area 419

- Additional Reports

 

[BigPrince]

Quoting a guy who trashes Area419 but then praises Keymo like it's a precision system. lol

Their representatives confirmed it when contacted.

Pics?

 

[ma smith]

I don't want to rezero everytime I clean my rifle and other such nonsense...

Lets see what 419 says about it officially.

 

[Wall_Element]

I don't want to rezero everytime I clean my rifle and other such nonsense...

Lets see what 419 says about it officially.

It only applies to suppressors. The brakes do use the tapers AFAIK.

To be fair... The likely hood of you having to re-zero every time is very low. With good threads and shoulder repeatability is high. Most will never have or perceive a change.

That said, the goal of tapers to squeeze more consistency and repeatability out of a system - raising the bar if you will. What really didn't sit well with me is going from a taper system like TBAC and stepping BACK to a square shoulder defeating the purpose. Especially when investing in TBAC suppressors for precision rigs - these are signs one is going above and beyond to achieve a specific goal at tremendous expense. Those folks should understand the dynamics of the solutions they are employing and how they can impact the overall system and result.

 

[kthomas]

To be fair to A419, it's probably pretty difficult to make such a product that works for such an expansive array of suppressors, while keeping some sort of a taper mount.

Personally, I think the benefits of a tapered mount, while there, are overstated. However, for a precision rifle rig, if you are not swapping your suppressors between different platforms (i.e. from your bolt gun to ar15 and back), then I see no reason to run an A419 system over say TBAC's dedicated system.

Where the A419 excels is not so much on suppressors limited to precision rifles, but when you swap between multiple different types of platforms, and multiple different types/brands of suppressors while still maintaining the ability to use a quality muzzle brake when not shooting suppressed.

Another way of accomplishing this is through the use of Q's Plan B system, which is really elegant, but requires the suppressor to have the 1-3/8x24 threat pitch. A419's system is a bit more universal. You get the taper, which is placed before the threads (does a good job keeping carbon and residue out of the threads), but there are some disadvantages. Namely, the muzzle devices are geared primarily towards ar15 type platforms, with no real quality precision rifle style muzzle brakes available to my knowledge. Not a problem if you don't plan on shooting your rifle unsuppressed however. Rearden MFG has some good muzzle device options for the Q Plan B system as well, so you are not just limited to Q's offerings.

However, if your goal is to swap multiple different types of suppressors between multiple different hosts, I don't really see the complaints about the A419 system, except perhaps for how expensive that could get. If your goal is to maintain ultimate precision, you probably aren't swapping a precision rifle can back and forth from an ar15, so it makes more sense to use either direct thread or the companies dedicated mounting system (TBAC for example).

 

[LawnMM]

Their representatives confirmed it when contacted.



A few examples of those reports:
- Unpredictable POI shifts when adapting TBAC to Area 419

- Additional Reports

That guys on my ignore list for a reason, it's not because he's a great source of reliable information. I saw one guy bitching and Zach from TBAC talking about the logistics of trying to make a can compatible with multiple brake systems.

To say you've overstated the 'issue' is putting it mildly.

I'll give you an anecdotal story since that's what we're basing all our evidence upon.

Here's my zero target before the last match I went to. First shot circled in red, adjusted, 5 more.

My rifle has a 26" barrel, and my 338BA Ultra won't fit in the safe on the rifle. It's got a 419 adapter because I run it on a 223 and a 300BO from time to time as well.

Screwed it back on night before the match when I loaded up the car. Managed a 6th place finish at a Border Wars match with around 45 shooters attending.

Clearly... their system is trash!!! I'm lucky I was able to hit anything. A fluke if you think about it.

 

[Wall_Element]

To say you've overstated the 'issue' is putting it mildly.

I don't believe I've overstated anything. If you believe so, please be specific as to what you are referring to, quotes would be helpful. I will edit anything I've misstated, etc as I do not wish to be inaccurate or misleading.

The Area 419 Hellfire system does not use mated taper surfaces when mounting suppressors.

 

[kthomas]

I don't believe I've overstated anything. If you believe so, please be specific as to what you are referring to, quotes would be helpful. I will edit anything I've misstated, etc as I do not wish to be inaccurate or misleading.

The Area 419 Hellfire system does not use mated taper surfaces when mounting suppressors.

Have you actually tested this yourself, to see how big of an issue it is?

Or are you just on here whining about it, based on one anecdotal story on the internet from a stranger?

 

[LawnMM]

I don't believe I've overstated anything. If you believe so, please be specific as to what you are referring to, quotes would be helpful. I will edit anything I've misstated, etc as I do not wish to be inaccurate or misleading.

The Area 419 Hellfire system does not use mated taper surfaces when mounting suppressors.

So what?

Your move.

 

[_Windrider_]

@flyer1a get in here!

 

[Wall_Element]

Alot of folks love the Area 419 Hellfire system, including myself. That said, everyone is entitled to know what it is, and what it is not.

As evidenced by several posts in this very thread, many in the market believe(d) this is a taper based suppressor mounting system. I've offered information/facts which I came across from another Hellfire customer, which was previously seemingly unknown to the market. It certainly surprised me to learn this, took me a bit to process and be sure, but there it is.

Tapers are used broadly by numerous manufactures in the industry because they are widely accepted to deliver superior lockup, repeatability and concentricity. TBAC uses them for a reason, for example. For that matter, Area 419 themselves tout the advantages of tapers and talk about the use of tapers in several of their products and materials for these reasons.

Clearly, this has led to upset feelings, which was never my intention. Apologies to those so affected.

 

[alfmoonspace]

No apology needed.

What is the evidence that they don’t use tapers on their mount?

 

[E. Bryant]

Seems like a bit of gear marking grease and a minute or two would be all that's needed to settle this controversy. OP, do you own one of these mounts? If so, I think it's past time to post some pictures.

No dog in this fight - I'm a fan and user of the SR system.

 

[1moaoff]

Could it be because not all suppresors use a tapered mating surface or same geometry even though threads are the same for a system? Just asking....

I'll let 419 roll with the real answer but ponder that for a min.

 

[LawnMM]

The taper is for their brake, that makes perfect sense. In order for the adapter to be "universal" it can't have different taper angles and diameters to mate with different taper mount suppressors. Otherwise it would only work on rifles with adapters for THAT specific can.

The system as is will allow you to use any can, that has a 419 suppressor adapter, in ANY rifle of any caliber with a universal adapter (obviously this assumes the aperture on the can can handle the bullet diameter).

Who fucking cares? You found one guy bitching about this. There are THOUSANDS of people using these, they're exceedingly popular in this sport this is literally the FIRST time I've seen anybody whine about anything.

There's no issue, stop believing shit you read on the internet. As long as you have a can that has the threads cut properly and the barrel has it's threads cut properly, you'll be fine.

Stop worrying about problems that don't exist.

 

[1moaoff]

Hmm... the OP didn't take the bait

 

[Wall_Element]

No apology needed.

What is the evidence that they don’t use tapers on their mount?

Area 419 representatives confirmed this, when they were contacted. If I had public Area 419 materials which made this clear, I would link everyone directly to that, but I do not. Everything I have been able to find discusses tapers and their advantages.

The representatives indicated that the suppressor adapters originally did rely upon mated tapered surfaces, but they have since abandoned the mating of those tapers in the suppressor adapters. This would not be obvious to consumers of the same as the tapered surfaces are still machined and present on the suppressor adapters. These tapers are so close to mating it's not possible to tell they do not without leveraging special techniques.

As @E. Bryant alludes, there are fairly simple to employ techniques one may leverage to demonstrate this. Of course, this alone doesn't preclude the possibility of out of specification parts. Sample size is relevant, which is why one needs confirmation from the manufacturer themselves.

Credit to the others who discovered this, devised the methods and provided the materials. With permission.

For all tests, remove any o-rings.

With an open faced hellfire suppressor adapter - such as Alpha or Bravo pattern - one would assemble the suppressor mount to a universal adapter then slide a .004"/.1mm or thinner gap gauge between observing the gauge bottoming out on the square shoulder.

With a closed face hellfire suppressor adapter such as the one made for TBAC, one can use a transfer medium to demonstrate the same. Clean the apparent mating taper surfaces well, on the male universal adapter taper and square shoulder apply a transfer medium such as grease marker, paint marker, metallic marker. While still wet, carefully thread the suppressor mount to the universal adapter while keeping everything centered and not allowing incidental contact, then torque. Remove and check for the transfer of the medium to the female part. There will only be transfer from torque contact on the square shoulder.

Lastly, one can also use masking tape. Masking tape must be less than .006" thick. Take a small square and apply it to the male taper surface of the universal adapter, ensuring no overhang intruding onto the square shoulder/proceeding radius, so that the tape is only on the taper surface and not anything else or hanging off. Ensure it is flat and flush as applied. Thread on a suppressor adapter and it will bottom out metal to metal. The tape will not be touched. One can add another square of tape on top of the previous, now we are at or near .008" thickness and one can feel the tape contact and compress when installing a suppressor adapter.

 

[BigPrince]

Area 419 representatives confirmed this, when they were contacted.

So you spoke to them on the phone or were their email conversations?

I've tagged @flyer1a a couple times and so have others as Area419 has a presence on this forum.

 

[1moaoff]

We get your point.....

What is your deal? Are you just trying to beat them up? I'm pretty sure most here have now read this thread.

Your mad, that's fine. You keep circling back however. It's kind of comes off as being whiney.

419 makes good products and has been known to be a good group to deal with. I'm sure at some point they will chime in.

Even if the taper is NOT used with suppressors the product is still a good one. They fill a niche.

While I want to understand how a product works as much if not more than most I would and would still use the product.

 

[_Windrider_]

I use the 419 system exclusively. I’ve never even once had an issue. Just because Q says tapers are the best and only we use them is a lie. I guarantee their tapers aren’t compatible with the majority of silencers out there like the 419 system. Their tapers work on their silencers. And FWIW, Q isn’t that great. The owner is a jackass and the products aren’t worth the money, save maybe the honey badger.

If you have never used the 419 system I say try it and have an informed opinion.

I’ve never had a baffle strike. I’ve never had one come loose and I have repeatable and consistent POI shift which is usually minimal.

Tapers aren’t all that.

 

[alfmoonspace]

@Wall_Element I get it now.

This morning I was hanging a picture of my AREA 419 tapered suppressor in my bathroom when I slipped and hit my head on the sink. When I came to I saw you in a Q shirt selling their suppressors.

Crazy how meta life is .

 

[STR_82]

Just because Q says tapers are the best and only we use them is a lie. I guarantee their tapers aren’t compatible with the majority of silencers out there like the 419 system. Their tapers work on their silencers. And FWIW, Q isn’t that great. The owner is a jackass and the products aren’t worth the money, save maybe the honey badger.

He just goes on and on about tapers, as if he invented them or something. Allen Engineering used them along with others long before Q came around.

Like bro... we get it. You like tapers.

 

[kthomas]

The OP still hasn't demonstrated if this is even an issue.

This would be worthy of the thread if the OP was experiencing issues with the A419 mounts and suppressors. But instead the OP chooses to complain about a problem that he/she hasn't even experienced.

 

[E. Bryant]

KB being a jackass about everything doesn't negate the value of tapers. Threads are capable of producing concentricity because they are basically helical tapers (note that square shoulders are a must). It is usually easier to generate a conical taper somewhere else in the mounting system. If that conical taper sits between the threads and the crap coming from the muzzle, even better.

Edit: The machine tool industry figured this out 125 years ago. We need to stop demanding that Class 3A/B threads be cut with a RCH of clearance in materials that love to gall.

 

[ma smith]

From this thread is appears the design is functional for the 419 BRAKE,
which begs the question why is there a difference with a supressor?

I like the taper part of it working personally, because I want the portability
from system to system, for cleaning, and sometimes transport.

That being said, I'm a total newb to tapered brakes and supressor mounts,
so I don't presume to know anything about the answer

 

[_Windrider_]

KB being a jackass about everything doesn't negate the value of tapers. Threads are capable of producing concentricity because they are basically helical tapers (note that square shoulders are a must). It is usually easier to generate a conical taper somewhere else in the mounting system. If that conical taper sits between the threads and the crap coming from the muzzle, even better.

Right but you can’t expect one taper to fit every manufacturer. Expecting the 419 system to have a taper that’s universal is unrealistic. Each manufacturer uses different angles and length of taper. That’s why their products work with their tapers. If you want to be universal it’s just not realistic. 419 knocked it out of the park with theirs. It works. Period.

 

[_Windrider_]

From this thread is appears the design is functional for the 419 BRAKE,
which begs the question why is there a difference with a supressor?

I like the taper part of it working personally, because I want the portability
from system to system, for cleaning, and sometimes transport.

That being said, I'm a total newb to tapered brakes and supressor mounts,
so I don't presume to know anything about the answer

The only silencer 419 makes is the maverick and you can use the adapter or direct thread. This is more about the 419 system not using a taper to accommodate all the silencers out there.

 

[spife7980]

Y’all do realize that the taper being discussed has nothing to do with the specific model of can, right? It’s a 419 muzzle adaptor to a 419 can adaptor plate.

Should be pretty easy to make the can adaptors work again, especially since they did before and still do for the brakes, or take the blurb about it off the website because if it’s not being used for the can adaptor plate.

 

[kthomas]

KB being a jackass about everything doesn't negate the value of tapers. Threads are capable of producing concentricity because they are basically helical tapers (note that square shoulders are a must). It is usually easier to generate a conical taper somewhere else in the mounting system. If that conical taper sits between the threads and the crap coming from the muzzle, even better.

As much as I dislike the guy, KB arguably has one of the most elegant mounting solutions in his Plan B setup, and the tapers in front of the threads actually works.

The disadvantage to this system is that you are limited to suppressors that have the 1-3/8x24 threads (can't use with TBAC for example), and the muzzle options are less then desirable for a precision rifle if you decide to shoot unsuppressed. I think this system could be a real contender in the precision rifle market if someone like Rearden MFG was able to produce self timing brakes that operate on the Plan B thread.

The A419 system covers a very wide range of cans, I'm not super familiar with the system as I don't own one. I'm not sure how easy it is or isn't to incorporate that taper interface into their suppressor mounting system, and if the differences between all the suppressors make that feasible or not.

But if the OP wants to pretend that the A419 system and it's lack of using tapers doesn't work or is somehow less effective, then at least put the time in to demonstrate why this is the case. There's very few critical reviews of A419's suppressor mounting system, and by nature we on SH are a picky crowd. So I have to imagine that problems with the system are very few and far between.

 

[BigPrince]

KB arguably has one of the most elegant mounting solutions in his Plan B setup

Off topic but I personally think it sucks and people just like the color. As you mention it only works for 1-3/8x24 and It's hot garbage if you try to shoot unsuppressed.

 

[kthomas]

Off topic but I personally think it sucks and people just like the color. As you mention it only works for 1-3/8x24 and It's hot garbage if you try to shoot unsuppressed.

My hope is that someone like Rearden develops a self timing precision rifle styled muzzle brake that uses the Plan B threads.

As far as the thread - lots of suppressors do use that thread, it's almost a standard, and more and more brands by the day are using it. TBAC will most likely never go to it, and I don't blame them. But if you are using TBAC cans, I see no reason not to use their muzzle devices anyways.

 

[STR_82]

Y’all do realize that the taper being discussed has nothing to do with the specific model of can, right? It’s a 419 muzzle adaptor to a 419 can adaptor plate.

Shhhhhh!!!! This allows us to easily identify those who have no clue what they are talking about and immediately discount any of their input.

Also, picture unrelated...

 

[1moaoff]

Is this going to turn into tip touching?

 

[alfmoonspace]

Is this going to turn into taper touching?