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Area 419 Hellfire - Suppressor Mounts do not actually use the Tapers
- Thread starter Wall_Element
- Start date
ive been running the 419 mount system on my cans for a few years and never utilized it with the thought that the tapers interfaced. the taper angle on that design would be pretty rough to disengage a suppressor from if it interfaced. (note how the threaded collar forces the brake free of the taper when locked up to remove it...)
i run their system so i can run all my cans across all my platforms and i really like the left hand thread no shoot loose etc. as to poi shift, what fucking planet are you clowns on? machined surfaces, threads, shoulders dont change. when you take a can off it goes right back on in the exact same spot, shoulder , thread. outside of debris between mating surfaces theres nothing to change including your zero. god damn man....
i run their system so i can run all my cans across all my platforms and i really like the left hand thread no shoot loose etc. as to poi shift, what fucking planet are you clowns on? machined surfaces, threads, shoulders dont change. when you take a can off it goes right back on in the exact same spot, shoulder , thread. outside of debris between mating surfaces theres nothing to change including your zero. god damn man....
This is just speculation, since I don't have confirmation (I do have a message in to my buddy at 419), but I'd guess the taper was initially developed for a different goal. Namely, having a true, tool-less, self timing muzzle brake. A419 is the only brake I've ever used that doesn't require a wrench, or dicking around with set screws to lock a brake into place EXACTLY where you want it. The fact that the taper helps concentricity is just an added bonus imo. Moving to cans...most all can be had a direct thread or used with their adapter. Regardless, good threads and a square shoulder are required to avoid turning your can into an expensive bumper for the dog to go retrieve. I'd argue the taper is irrelevant with a can since you don't have to time/clock it (Maverick or Harvester excluded).
Again, just my 2 cent added to the dumpster fire
Again, just my 2 cent added to the dumpster fire
I'm with Spife here and a bit confused. Are we not, indeed, talking about the interface between the uni adapter and either their break or their suppressor mount? And therefore is completely in Area 419's control.
I have a set of uni, suppressor mounts, and a Hellfire break....never installed as I'm waiting on my Ultra 7 that's still in jail.
Am I correct that it is a fact that the taper between the uni adapter and their suppressor mount/Hellfire break is no longer functional?
I'm one of the least knowledgeable people on this site on gun smithing/machining work but just looking at the two in my hands they look to have a taper.
Is it really no longer a functional part of the interface.
And sorry for my ignorance here....just trying to understand.
Cheers
- The taper is no longer functional between the Universal Adapter and the A419 Suppressor Mounts.
- It is functional between the Universal Adapter and the Brakes.
That said, as I have said previously in this thread:
I like my Hellfire systems, just surprised the tapers are not functional for suppressor mounts.
I am going to continue to use mine for everything but my long range precision rifle setups with TBACs. Heck, I am still going to use the Hellfire on my TBACs when I attach them to non-long range precision rifles because it's a very handy, light weight, low profile system that allows a lot of transportability / compatibility for my rigs.
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I think everyone's been pretty patient with your dumb ass but you keep doubling down on stupid.
Either present some form of evidence that there's an issue or shut the fuck up. You have no clue what the hell you're talking about in terms of machining or how accuracy works, my guess is you're a mediocre shot a best, and you're basing this entire shit show of a discussion off one Muppets whining who's obviously a hater, mind you... the ONLY hater I've ever seen on this site EVER.
I've presented evidence to the contrary of your bullshit assertion, you can't even answer people when they ask if it's something you've experienced because you've never even bothered to test it.
You just read about it on the internet and took it as Gospel. I've also heard Tidepods are delicious on a tortilla, perhaps you should try a few.
Having read this thread I don't think the argument is whether tapers work or are needed. It's that Area 419 advertises that it uses tapers on it's suppressor adapters but aren't. I'm wondering why they would continue to advertise using them if they aren't and if there was a change made why they didn't make it public? It maybe be that the OP is full of it but it would be nice if Craig or Jon would clear this up.
Right. Because it was designed for their brakes not mounting a silencer. The fact that it can accommodate silencers is a bonus
But I understand how this sentence is confusing by itself. If you read the whole page it’s clear
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I get that but for example the sidewinder universal adapter advertises working with the tomb style suppressor mount and then directly below says "Universal adapter uses a taper surface similar to a machine tool for the absolute best alignment with the muzzle threads." That would lead most anyone not knowing ahead of time to believe that the suppressor mount would use the tapers surface. Just seems like misleading advertising for no reason.
It’s
Agree though, it could be clearer. No arguing where the confusion lies.
It’s called the hellfire universal adapter. The hellfire is a brake.
Agree though, it could be clearer. No arguing where the confusion lies.
So I bought the sidewinder mount and the ultra 9 attachment. I have yet to use it waiting on the ultra 9 to get out of jail. I skimmed threw this a little but is the claim these are not repeatable when taking on and off? Zero change? Other people on here that use them said they loved them and very repeatable. Hopefully I find out soon how good but I don't plan on shooting anything not suppressed
The issue is the whole point of the hellfire mounting system is that the brake and suppressor adapters attach to the hellfire mount via a taper. Ensuring best possible alignment and making installation and removal easier/threads won’t get carbon locked.
What’s been reported is the suppressor adapters taper’s are apparently just cosmetic now. But until it’s confirmed or denied it’s just here say. There is one report and pictures of one suppressor adapter being cosmetic.
Unsure why OP didn't just post the email replies I sent to him, would have saved a lot of uninformed time for the forum. Guess I'll basically copy/paste for him. I'll check this one more time in a day or so, but am probably not going to spend a ton of time arguing about the system that has worked for a massive number of people, and is produced based on a mountain of R/D and testing, to be as versatile, repeatable, and effective as possible. OP never observed any issue, or any lack of repeatability. Someone out there may have at some point, and if so email us, we'd love to help you, but search this forum. Person after person have seen the system be bank-vault solid with dependable repeatability and unmatched versatility. That's what we want to see, and we have seen it over and over and over.
So, the suppressor mounts don't interface the taper. Don't think I've ever said they do. They use our Universal Adapter, which ABSOLUTELY uses the taper for the brakes, but are interfacing with the large rear shoulder. They get real close to the taper (more on that later), and it prevents gross misalignment, and helps keep things clean, but the interface for the suppressor adapters is the rear face of the Hellfire Universal Adapter.
The core of the confusion comes from most people thinking that all tapers are the same. This is a point of ignorance that seems to be seeding problems. Basic lesson - there are "steep" tapers and "shallow" tapers both being used in the shooting world. These are separated in the 15*-20* included angle area. Larger angle, and tapers don't really lock. Smaller and they start to lock really hard. Nearly all you see in the consumer/shooting world are "steep" (Sig/Q is a good example at 25*. They are great for creating concentric seals. There are then "shallow" like ours, at 10*, which you'll also find in most of the machining world, and they are meant to create concentric grip. They also create a seal, but grip is the core function.
Remember seal/grip, it's important.
On our adapters the grip is needed to time the brakes we produce. The way those are allowed to work is the collar (this is also important later) pulls directly back on the brake, creating the seating force on the tapers. It's a patented method that works exceptionally well and many of you are customers because of it - thank you for that. The downside to this is that it requires that direct pull-back to get tight. If you tried to thread something onto that in one piece, like it were the Sig/Q or the TBAC or another that uses a taper seal, it would never achieve thread torque as the shallow taper would bite/grip and it would keep you from turning the device enough to create the requisite thread torque.
Our very first can mounts (maybe someone on this thread has one, but probably not, there were only a couple dozen made) actually looked like a Hellfire, with the collar on the rear. These interfaced the taper. The major downfall was the added length of this approach, along with weight and complication. So, like we tend to do, we started working on alternatives and seeing what performed to our liking.
What we landed on is what we have on the market today, with thousands of can mounts in use. It is a system that shoulders on the large square face of the rear threads on the Hellfire adapter, with a small amount (about .005" radial) of clearance at the taper interface. This had shown to us over and over and over to be very repeatable (as long as the can itself and the muzzle threads were true, but nothing in our mount system could possibly solve those issues) as well as shorter, lighter, and realistically more attractive.
We have not changed this design or its manufacturing tolerance since we released it in 2016. This isn't something we randomly did 6 months ago.
ALSO - WORTH NOTING - OP was issued a full refund for every item he wanted to send back. Every piece. We wrote him and mailed him a check about 10 days ago. Satisfaction guaranteed, period, and if he felt like his theoretical knowledge of what was best was more relevant than what we developed, that's perfectly fine.
Any other questions, happy to answer them. I'll pop back on later in the week.
So, the suppressor mounts don't interface the taper. Don't think I've ever said they do. They use our Universal Adapter, which ABSOLUTELY uses the taper for the brakes, but are interfacing with the large rear shoulder. They get real close to the taper (more on that later), and it prevents gross misalignment, and helps keep things clean, but the interface for the suppressor adapters is the rear face of the Hellfire Universal Adapter.
The core of the confusion comes from most people thinking that all tapers are the same. This is a point of ignorance that seems to be seeding problems. Basic lesson - there are "steep" tapers and "shallow" tapers both being used in the shooting world. These are separated in the 15*-20* included angle area. Larger angle, and tapers don't really lock. Smaller and they start to lock really hard. Nearly all you see in the consumer/shooting world are "steep" (Sig/Q is a good example at 25*. They are great for creating concentric seals. There are then "shallow" like ours, at 10*, which you'll also find in most of the machining world, and they are meant to create concentric grip. They also create a seal, but grip is the core function.
Remember seal/grip, it's important.
On our adapters the grip is needed to time the brakes we produce. The way those are allowed to work is the collar (this is also important later) pulls directly back on the brake, creating the seating force on the tapers. It's a patented method that works exceptionally well and many of you are customers because of it - thank you for that. The downside to this is that it requires that direct pull-back to get tight. If you tried to thread something onto that in one piece, like it were the Sig/Q or the TBAC or another that uses a taper seal, it would never achieve thread torque as the shallow taper would bite/grip and it would keep you from turning the device enough to create the requisite thread torque.
Our very first can mounts (maybe someone on this thread has one, but probably not, there were only a couple dozen made) actually looked like a Hellfire, with the collar on the rear. These interfaced the taper. The major downfall was the added length of this approach, along with weight and complication. So, like we tend to do, we started working on alternatives and seeing what performed to our liking.
What we landed on is what we have on the market today, with thousands of can mounts in use. It is a system that shoulders on the large square face of the rear threads on the Hellfire adapter, with a small amount (about .005" radial) of clearance at the taper interface. This had shown to us over and over and over to be very repeatable (as long as the can itself and the muzzle threads were true, but nothing in our mount system could possibly solve those issues) as well as shorter, lighter, and realistically more attractive.
We have not changed this design or its manufacturing tolerance since we released it in 2016. This isn't something we randomly did 6 months ago.
ALSO - WORTH NOTING - OP was issued a full refund for every item he wanted to send back. Every piece. We wrote him and mailed him a check about 10 days ago. Satisfaction guaranteed, period, and if he felt like his theoretical knowledge of what was best was more relevant than what we developed, that's perfectly fine.
Any other questions, happy to answer them. I'll pop back on later in the week.
Thanks for all that. As I customer and someone who is all in on the hellfire and sidewinder, I think I can ubeerstand where some confusion comes in based on the description on the web. I understand the taper is for the brake, but it kind of makes it seem like the taper is used for the suppressors as well. A small clarification could cure future misconceptions like this even though the vast majority already understand this.
Thank you for the technical explanation, I appreciate those details. I have no dog in the fight here, but perhaps this bullet point on your description for the suppressor mount may be considered misleading. Instead, a bullet point summarizing the above technical explanation should quell any confusion.
Attachments
Like the previous couple post said I think the majority of confusion is with the advertising. This screenshot of the universal adapter more accurately shows where it could be confused. Says it works with your suppressor mount then directly below it says it uses tapers and how awesome tapers are.
I don't think the majority of people think the tapers are some how necessary for a suppressor mount. It's just that your advertising would lead most people to believe the mount utilizes them with the adapter. Since it doesn't it would make sense to state that on the site.
Sure, valid point. This is a direct copy/paste from the Hellfire Universal Adapter page, and has been exactly as shown here for years. I removed that bullet from all suppressor mount listings. Those descriptions had been unchanged for about 5 years, but always happy to accommodate. I'm mostly amazed that someone read deep into a description. Most don't read the first line.
Have a great weekend fellas, and find some time to enjoy the beautiful fall with your loved ones.
Have a great weekend fellas, and find some time to enjoy the beautiful fall with your loved ones.
I ran out of time before reaching the end of this thread and jumped to the end to make this statement. It may have already been made but.... The taper on Area419 products is for ease of indexing your brake. There is no need for indexing a can. The length and weight of the can configuration is greatly reduced by using the system as it is designed. Mine is pure perfection. I can go from can to brake to can in less than a minute and no complicated gadgets. How do you top that?
Account was made today, just to post this? Seems someone has a vendetta. Who knows. This is largely why a lot of manufacturers stay away from the forums.
Intentionally ambiguous and misleading language.
Then feign surprise... oh wow we never knew anyone thought these interfaced on the tapers. Calling bullcrap.
Your own words state that the system uses the taper to secure whatever may be attached to it.
Then feign surprise... oh wow we never knew anyone thought these interfaced on the tapers. Calling bullcrap.
Your own words state that the system uses the taper to secure whatever may be attached to it.
I think my work computer was preventing this link from being posted, who knows.
This is the video:
"What these adapters allow you to do is attach myriad products to the end, and it's all based around the idea that the inside geometry of whatever you're mounting matches the external geometry of this universal adapter and it's being secured to those tapers with these rear threads. So, to mount a hellfire brake you're simply putting it on the end and tightening with this collar timing it as you'd like to pull it onto the rifle. It's very concentric and very repeatable. We then have other devices, like this is our linear flash suppressor. Which maybe doesn't make as much sense for my match rifle, but makes a lot of sense for a carbine. Or you can attach our maverick, which is built on the hellfire attachment system, or it's available with the big brother sidewinder. We have other suppressor mounts, so this is a silencerco omega that's set up with our hellfire adapter in the back, and we have hellfire adapters for crow suppressors, for thunderbeast suppressors, both their cb and their ba, for dead air keymo models, for sas suppressed armament system tomb mounts. We've got a lot of different models we're always adding models to that lineup that allow you to centralize your mounting systems around something that really does a good job of keeping things straight and true."
This is the video:
"What these adapters allow you to do is attach myriad products to the end, and it's all based around the idea that the inside geometry of whatever you're mounting matches the external geometry of this universal adapter and it's being secured to those tapers with these rear threads. So, to mount a hellfire brake you're simply putting it on the end and tightening with this collar timing it as you'd like to pull it onto the rifle. It's very concentric and very repeatable. We then have other devices, like this is our linear flash suppressor. Which maybe doesn't make as much sense for my match rifle, but makes a lot of sense for a carbine. Or you can attach our maverick, which is built on the hellfire attachment system, or it's available with the big brother sidewinder. We have other suppressor mounts, so this is a silencerco omega that's set up with our hellfire adapter in the back, and we have hellfire adapters for crow suppressors, for thunderbeast suppressors, both their cb and their ba, for dead air keymo models, for sas suppressed armament system tomb mounts. We've got a lot of different models we're always adding models to that lineup that allow you to centralize your mounting systems around something that really does a good job of keeping things straight and true."
I use the hellfire system on all of my rifles, swap a nomad l between them and have never had to re-zero any of them.
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