Has anyone used both of these muzzle brakes? I’m trying to decide on a muzzle brake for a 6.5 CM build. If there’s another brake besides these that you prefer, I’d like to hear your input on them. These two just seem to be pretty reliable and easy install/removal.
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Area 419 Hellfire Vs. APA Little Bastard
- Thread starter mmiloshoff
- Start date
As stated above, Can’t go wrong w either.
If you wanted to save a little scratch don’t overlook this guy. I have 2 of his as well and they work great too.
If you wanted to save a little scratch don’t overlook this guy. I have 2 of his as well and they work great too.
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I’ve owned both. Just as stated already, you can’t go wrong with either. The Gen3 APA’s with the top ports could be another good option.
Ck out Terminator brakes also. As stated above Area 419 and APA are top notch.
If your really splitting hairs, like trying it over and over and using free-recoil just to see the difference, you might notice the 419 staying slightly, ever so slightly nearer the target in the scope.
That said, once in the gun, especially for a light 6.5 or 6mm I can’t really tell much difference. That’s why I say get the one you like the looks the most.. they both really work well.
I prefer the APA because it has a nut you can get a wrench on to break it loose, if you’re like me an never clean your brakes, the 419 is a bitch to get off.. still haven’t figured out why nobody machines a flat on the main body of the muzzle brake, to break it free from the self-timing nut, when that gets froze up
I've owned both, plus Insite Heathens.
They are all really effective at reducing recoil, but get separated by small details.
I dislike the fact that a wrench is required with the APA LB. If it goes loose and you don't have a wrench on you, tough luck. Mine liked to go loose all the time as well. Sucked when it happened in the middle of a stage.
The Area 419 doesn't require a wrench, but I've had issues with that lock nut collar getting carbon locked. I believe mine got locked up tighter then a nuns you know what in less then 100 rounds. My friends had issues with them carbon locking as well, they've since moved on to other brakes. The brake ports are really sharp (seems like unfinished/unrefined machining to me). If your collar is carbon locked, don't try and get it unstuck with your bare hands - may as well run your hands up and down a cheese grater.
I've really come to like the Insite Heathen brakes. Not on your list, but I believe it's a more refined option then the other two. Doesn't require a wrench to tighten and it doesn't have a tendency to walk itself loose. They don't get carbon locked, not after thousands of rounds. The ports have beveled edges and won't slice your hands open. Aesthetically the most pleasing. The new design with replaceable/changeable bore sizes is a neat touch.
Overall, they all do a great job mitigating recoil. It's the smaller details that really start to separate the different brakes out there in my mind.
They are all really effective at reducing recoil, but get separated by small details.
I dislike the fact that a wrench is required with the APA LB. If it goes loose and you don't have a wrench on you, tough luck. Mine liked to go loose all the time as well. Sucked when it happened in the middle of a stage.
The Area 419 doesn't require a wrench, but I've had issues with that lock nut collar getting carbon locked. I believe mine got locked up tighter then a nuns you know what in less then 100 rounds. My friends had issues with them carbon locking as well, they've since moved on to other brakes. The brake ports are really sharp (seems like unfinished/unrefined machining to me). If your collar is carbon locked, don't try and get it unstuck with your bare hands - may as well run your hands up and down a cheese grater.
I've really come to like the Insite Heathen brakes. Not on your list, but I believe it's a more refined option then the other two. Doesn't require a wrench to tighten and it doesn't have a tendency to walk itself loose. They don't get carbon locked, not after thousands of rounds. The ports have beveled edges and won't slice your hands open. Aesthetically the most pleasing. The new design with replaceable/changeable bore sizes is a neat touch.
Overall, they all do a great job mitigating recoil. It's the smaller details that really start to separate the different brakes out there in my mind.
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Either one works great.
Personally I leave them on much longer than most people do. I tighten them down pretty good and leave them on for a long time before removing them. I may only take them off 2x between barrel new and shot out in some cases. If your going to be a brake cleaning type of guy make sure you do a little research on removal / installation and what (some) others have noted with POI.
Just a though since it sounds like you havent had one before.
Personally I leave them on much longer than most people do. I tighten them down pretty good and leave them on for a long time before removing them. I may only take them off 2x between barrel new and shot out in some cases. If your going to be a brake cleaning type of guy make sure you do a little research on removal / installation and what (some) others have noted with POI.
Just a though since it sounds like you havent had one before.
They are both great brakes. The Gen III lil bastard is slightly better at staying on target. The 419 has a better mounting system, but you still need a wrench in order to clean your muzzle, which gets really dirty really quickly with the 419. Both are loud as hell. Performance wise, if you want the most control possible, the new lil bastard is it.
I'm liking my new Gen 3 lil bastard a bit more than my hellfire. it's hard to explain but you can tell the difference in recoil impulse between the two. and i feel like tuning it with the removable port set screws does make a difference.
I haven't played with the Gen3 LB yet, but I could definitely see a difference in the reticle between the Hellfire and Gen2LB, with the Hellfire doing a better job of staying on target on barricades and such. I'll also say that I have a *lot* more confidence in the 419 mounting system, as I had my LB spin loose on more than one occasion, even after putting a noticeable amount of torque on it. The 419 stays in place without issue, and is MUCH easier to time.
I’ve grown to dislike brakes with a lot of upward bias.
They upset the recoil with a lot of unneeded downforce.
For 308 sized cartridges the Heathen is still my favorite.
No vertical bias
Easy and clean mounting.
Works well with standard .625 barrel threads(crown not buried so it stays cleaner)
Effective at recoil reduction yet not nasty blasty.
I’m contemplating getting one for my 7 Saum but the 419 sidewinder that’s on it is kicking ass.
This is my 260 with a Heathen.
even one handed my reticle never left the target.
I ran Insight Arms Heathens for this PRS season - great brake. I recently got the new APA little bastard and i'm really impressed. I have 2 rifles set up exactly the same except one has a Heathen and the other has the APA gen3 LB. Running barricades and shooting off a bag off of rocks, the APA is noticeably better. APA also seems to have reduced the concussive blast at the shooter some that I didn't like about the Gen 2 (the reason I preferred the Heathen). Needless to say, I will buying a Gen 3 Fat Bastard for my other Dasher (lol) when they are released in the next few weeks.
Area 419 if you ever plan on being civilized and running a suppressor.
I have had and still own the gen 2 APA LB, Heathen, And Hell fire and am now running the gen 3 LB APA. They all reduce recoil really well but there are differences for sure. The 419 is impossible to clean and the mounting system seems like a gimmick to an extent. The heathen is great but I feel like its the least effective of the 3. I personally have never had the APA come loose and I've shot it a lot! When I asked them about the wrench flats they said that they are more an aid to break the brake loose then anything so I have always just cranked the nut hand tight and its been perfect. HOWEVER the the Gen 3 is absolutely next level. For what ever reason it seems to reduce the recoil a lot more then the others and the ports on the top are seriously magic for staying on target. Saving up my dough for the g3 FB next. I cant imagine it can do much more then the LB but I have been told otherwise so I'm looking forward to it...
I had my gen 2 lil b come loose a lot, but I think that's more a function of tolerance stacking between the threads on the brake and the barrel in my specific case. It's only a sample size of 1, so it's not fair for me to say it's because of the brake.
The mounting of the Area 419 is my least favorite. I had my locking nut/collar jam up on one of my first outings with it. It's carbon locked to shit. If that happens, don't try to loosen the brake by grabbing on to what I call the "gills" of the brake - the ports. They are as sharp as cheese graters, there's no radiusing of the edges to smooth them out. Sliced my hands right open.
Anyways, we all have our personal preferences, doesn't mean that my favorite will be your favorite and vice versa. The good thing is, there's lots of great options of us to choose from.
Fit and finish on the area 419 are head and shoulders above the APA.
I also like the mounting system better, and the option for a consistent suppressor mount across guns.
The apa was not “self timing” like the hellfire is. It just uses a jam nut, no timing marks like the hellfire.
The apa also loosened up on me somewhere between 1 and 50 rounds.
No issues with the hellfire doing that.
I also like the mounting system better, and the option for a consistent suppressor mount across guns.
The apa was not “self timing” like the hellfire is. It just uses a jam nut, no timing marks like the hellfire.
The apa also loosened up on me somewhere between 1 and 50 rounds.
No issues with the hellfire doing that.
Same - Same. Both work great. Never had either loosen up up if installed properly. All brakes and cans may come loose, check your shit and lean on them if needed. It is more often than not, the muzzle threads being incorrect. Just ask TBAC.
"Self-Timing" means you install it yourself and don't have to have a gunsmith turn the barrel down to clock (time) it, ala Gen1 Little Bastard. Pretty sure APA invented self-timed brakes with the Gen2 Little Bastard. Not sure what you think it means.
There were definitely 'self timing' designs out there before APA. I know I saw brakes mounted with jam nuts in the 90s and early 2000s. They weren't quite as elegant as the APA setup where the nut is on the brake itself, but the idea was around.
What makes the apa self timing as compared to a $40 AR brake with a jam nut?
The hellfire has timing marks on the front face, and you time it independently of the nut that tightens it down. The brake stays put while you tighten that nut.
I suppose I was expecting something similar with the apa, but I had to use something to hold the brake in place because turning the jam nut would also turn the brake.
The hellfire has timing marks on the front face, and you time it independently of the nut that tightens it down. The brake stays put while you tighten that nut.
I suppose I was expecting something similar with the apa, but I had to use something to hold the brake in place because turning the jam nut would also turn the brake.
Yea, I cant say I agree with you on the fit and finish. The mounting system on the hellfire is ok but like I said a pain to clean and requires an adaptor. Far as the APA not being self timing not sure what you mean there, they take 20-30 seconds to install and there's no need for and adaptor so... Again, never had one come loose so maybe and Indian thing more then an arrow thing... not sure.
I’ve had a gen 2 fat bastard and now an area 419 hellfire. I feel the hellfire might be a little better due to the locking taper. I had my APA brake come loose multiple times after torquing on it with a 12” crescent wrench. I ended up having mile high loctite it. Going to test the hellfire tonight to see if it comes loose after 25 rounds (load testing)
I wonder if how the Smith threads the barrel can effect them coming loose. For example my smith threaded my barrel and had a muzzle brake and thread protector on hand (not mine) one would screw on all the way to the shoulder but the other one wouldn’t. So we tried my sidewinder adapter and it wouldn’t either so he machined the thread a little more until it was a perfect fit. Maybe it’s the tolerance from the muzzle threads that make some brakes come loose and others not.
Just my 2cents!
Just my 2cents!
I admit it could have been poor installation on my part. It hasn’t backed off a second time.
I stand by what I said on fit and finish though. The apa has machining marks and sharp edges where the area419 is clean and smooth throughout. All the area419 products I’ve handled are the same.
You can say, who cares?, on a muzzle brake but these are not $20 chinese gun show specials.
The APA is an effective brake, and functions as expected. I just think it’s only satisfactory, where the area419 is exceptional.
Give it a rest. You said your piece. Some of us don't give 2 shits about looks. I only care how things function. Most of theses brakes are butt ugly, but they all work.
I have both and they are very nice. Both do a very good job of mitigating recoil. I can’t tell the difference.
Area 419 mounting system is great for getting it mounted perfect in my opinion. It has yet to back itself off but did carbon lock itself on the last time I went to removed it.
Apa gen 2 lil bastard takes a tiny bit more messing to get it mounted perfect. It has backed off a few times.(probably my fault) and has never carbon locked itself on.
Area 419 mounting system is great for getting it mounted perfect in my opinion. It has yet to back itself off but did carbon lock itself on the last time I went to removed it.
Apa gen 2 lil bastard takes a tiny bit more messing to get it mounted perfect. It has backed off a few times.(probably my fault) and has never carbon locked itself on.
I know it's not "in vogue" as other methods, but the engineer in me prefers the most simple and elegant solution. Adding more parts to the end of your barrel is inviting more potential problems. QD adapters really aren't any more quick then threading and unthreading a direct thread, and there's potential for user induced error in most QD systems. With adapters like the Area 419, you are now shouldering up two items instead of one, more opportunity for tolerance stacking and misalignment to occur.
I'd rather not launch a can down range, or have to send a can back for a baffle strike. If you start with a quality cut muzzle end, there's not many reasons to not do a direct thread IMO, unless you want/need to share suppressors across different platforms (bolt gun to ar15 for example).
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