Sidearms & Scatterguns Army REJECTS Glock 19X, "It's a shitty pistol that is not worth the Army's time and money." - General James C. McConville, Army Chief of Staff

[Friday]

I am really shocked they did not give the M9A3 a harder look, they run so reliably with a Can it’s almost scary. IMHO I feel the M9 > sig and glock. I personally can pick up the M9 and shoot it much better and the feel is much better than both Sig and Glock. But on the flip side of this take the M9 out of the equation I can also shoot the glock better than the sig. Not sure what all the hype was about the Sig. I feel the M9A3 is one of the more quality pistols I’ve ever been around!

 

[SDet]

I am really shocked they did not give the M9A3 a harder look, they run so reliably with a Can it’s almost scary. IMHO I feel the M9 > sig and glock. I personally can pick up the M9 and shoot it much better and the feel is much better than both Sig and Glock. But on the flip side of this take the M9 out of the equation I can also shoot the glock better than the sig. Not sure what all the hype was about the Sig. I feel the M9A3 is one of the more quality pistols I’ve ever been around!

One bit of info I got from someone who used both (I guess the previous issued m9) was size and weight. She's probably 5' 100lb, and greatly preferred the sig for both carrying and shooting over the beretta. When the pistol spends 99% of the time being carried, weight adds up.

 

[Friday]

One bit of info I got from someone who used both (I guess the previous issued m9) was size and weight. She's probably 5' 100lb, and greatly preferred the sig for both carrying and shooting over the beretta. When the pistol spends 99% of the time being carried, weight adds up.

I guess I can kind of see that. I don’t honestly feel like my M9 is all that heavy it’s certainly heavier than the sig no doubt.

 

[JustSendit]

It’s worth remembering the main reason, maybe the only reason, the SIG was selected was because they underbid glock. By a lot. I think there is absolutely some fuckery that happened and (again) the army is left holding the bag. But that’s just also a reminder that everything military grade is really just the absolute cheapest shit the army is willing to accept. In this case it’s the SIG.

 

[Harv24]

congresional overview


What I find interesting is that the Army, as part of the contract cannot disclose the unit price.
I've read other reports where the Slides failing to lock back are counted as stoppages, and that the AMU waived it off as operator error due to them riding the slide stop during firing (Which is exactly the issue) and that it was not a big deal and could be rectified with training. That's the part I find humourous... training...on a andgun...in the Army....

 

[HousePlant]

They should have chosen the Beretta 92.

 

[308pirate]

She

LOL that tells me all I need to know

 

[SDet]

LOL that tells me all I need to know

Plenty of women in all branches. From the retired marine next door, or the air force security forces who used to live downstairs. There are plenty of smaller men as well.

 

[308pirate]

Plenty of women in all branches

And they have their own, lower standard. The one I witnessed first hand over ten years in the US Navy.

Fuck them

I served with plenty of smaller guys who never needed an accommodation. They made the men's cut.

WUBA

 

[IrishWind]

Looks like 308ButtPirate is angry that even the WUBAs let him keep his InCel card.

 

[308pirate]

Looks like 308ButtPirate is angry that even the WUBAs let him keep his InCel card.

LOL I bet you had to go look it up in urban dictionary

Or maybe you were a wuba lover HAHAHAHAHA

 

[Harv24]

Magazine that was designed to pefrom better in san

They should have chosen the Beretta 92.

Beretta had a product improved M9 that they presented to the DoD. They had implemented many good changes and offered them .Gov a good price for upgrades. But the Army was stuck on the different grip size requirment along with needing RDS and Suppressor mounting options.

The Marines even fielded a M9 magazine that perfromed well in sand enviroments.
Pistol training has gotten better across the services thanks to the last 20 years of GWOT from many guys I've talked too, but in the end, Pistols will still get a low priority on training and qualification because that's just the way it is. Small Arms Is just not the big killer on the battlefield. HE is.

If anyone paid attention to the recent small little conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, it was all about the unmanned Kamikaze drone, and the need to defend against them.

 

[THEIS]

If anyone paid attention to the recent small little conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, it was all about the unmanned Kamikaze drone, and the need to defend against them.

Hi,

Not following what that has to do with pistols...am I missing something?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Harv24]

Hi,

Not following what that has to do with pistols...am I missing something?

Sincerely,
Theis

My point is that something like the MHS pistol means jack Shit in the big picture when it comes to future conflicts.

 

[DJL2]

At the risk of restating the obvious, the whole point of procurement is to remove subjectivity. Within the official process it's simple - meet reqs, have low bid, win contract. Is your product better? No one cares. Is your product cheaper? That's the question. The shady...er, excuse me..."art" to all of this is how the reqs get written...and when they're read.

 

[juha_teuvonnen]

Beretta had a product improved M9 that they presented to the DoD. They had implemented many good changes and offered them .Gov a good price for upgrades. But the Army was stuck on the different grip size requirment along with needing RDS and Suppressor mounting options.

The Marines even fielded a M9 magazine that perfromed well in sand enviroments.
Pistol training has gotten better across the services thanks to the last 20 years of GWOT from many guys I've talked too, but in the end, Pistols will still get a low priority on training and qualification because that's just the way it is. Small Arms Is just not the big killer on the battlefield. HE is.

I believe that the Army surveyed the soldiers coming back from the Sandbox as to how much they trusted their gear and equipment. While the M4 got thumbs up from the vast majority of GIs, something to the tune of 80% approval, M9 was exactly the opposite. So, it seems that they listened to the soldiers for once, which is a good thing in my book.

 

[JustSendit]

Besides the locking block I always trusted that the m9 would function. Interesting to hear many others didn’t.

 

[Harv24]

I believe that the Army surveyed the soldiers coming back from the Sandbox as to how much they trusted their gear and equipment. While the M4 got thumbs up from the vast majority of GIs, something to the tune of 80% approval, M9 was exactly the opposite. So, it seems that they listened to the soldiers for once, which is a good thing in my book.

That can be a problem when you listen to folks who are not neccessarily SME in handguns. In that specific case, they had issues, but it was not the fault of Beretta. Beretta made magazines function fine, but when the war kicked off, The Army outsourced the purchase of magazines to a company called Checkmate. They were told to place a parkerized finish on the magazine body, which they did. this process dips the entire magazine in the finish, causing a rough textured surface on both the inside and outside.

Now you add the fine talcum san of the ME and viola... failure to feeds up the wazoo. Beretta found out much later what the Army did and testing showed the rough parkerization and sand impede how the rounds move up thru the magazine under the force of the follower and spring.

Follow on magazines did away with the that finish (OEM Beretta Mags are silky smooth on the inside)

I read that whole questionaire, many of them complained of the lack of "Stopping power" as well. As Many troops don't understand terminal ballistics and get there knowledge from Hollywood.

M882 ball sucks on killing people when you get a good shot in the vitals.... now shoot someone in the shoulder, the hip or leg and it makes it worse. And remember, the majority of those questioned who carried a M9, had shit training with a very low minimum standard to meet (5 rds for familarization and 40 rds to qual- once a year)

80%+ of folks in CONUS (FBI stats) shot with a handgun, survive. What does that tell you about the eficacy of handguns and there ability to stop threats.

Take the magazine issue away...... upgrade to the new designed locking block....a good reliable pistol. Hell, that pistol was tested more then any other previous pistol at that time, and tested twice due to litigation.... and came out on top (along with SIG that did very well also) I think the 1911 if tested, would have not done as well.

 

[IrishWind]

Besides the locking block I always trusted that the m9 would function. Interesting to hear many others didn’t.

There are three issues the M9 has in service that I have seen/heard of:
Checkmate Magazines. Slightly better than ProMag. But why the Army/DoD decided saving $.01 per unit versus the benefit of a working weapon is is staggering. When I was in Iraq in 2006 we had M9s. Every Friday our team had a maintenance day, and cleaning weapons was chore 1. And part of the SOP was downloading all the M9 magazines and cleaning them and the ammo. After a few months I was able to get my hands on factory Beretta magazines. I noticed the rounds came out of the magazines a lot easier (and no more Fail to Feed jams) and there was less gunk to clean on the magazine and ammo. Better magazines and reliability skyrocketed.

115gr NATO 9mm. This ammo is loaded to European specs, not ours. So it is hotter than normal 9mm, but not +P. Coupled with the round nose FMJ design, unless you get a CNS hit on a target, the chances of getting a stopping shot on is low. Since quality bullets are not an option due to international laws of war, quantity help make up for it. I did see something that with the M17/M18 the rules are relaxed so we are no longer are hamstrung by this rule, but only in certain environments. Please check your local JAG for updates on the LOAC please.

Heavy use. When any gun gets used a lot, and pushed past it's design, it will get sloppy and/or break. Handguns are designed to go several thousand rounds before needing heavy maintenance. When you hear of bad M9s, most can be traced to either range guns that have hundreds of rounds pushed through them daily with minimum maintenance, or get pushed past their limits (like the SEALs using Uzi SMG ammo in their M9s). And I've seen some guns keep getting reflielded when they needed depot level of love to get back to working condition. But I also remember people complaining about the 1911's in service in the 70s and 80 as beat/worn/needing replacement too.

I do like the M9. The times I shot to qualify it was easy to score expert. And the locking blocks are no worry for me. I have my Grandfather's 1944 Walther P-38 and it uses the same system. The blocks are still good. Yes, the M9 is big. And there are many other better choices for a CCW gun. But for the time it designed and fielded, the M9 is a great gun. If I didn't have a several 9mm guns in the safe already I would have no hesitations buying an M9 today. My only gripe is the slide mounted safety. It was easier to leave off and carry like I do my Sigs.

 

[Harv24]

I'm not going to lay out a bunch of details about Group. But we don't have M9's. The biggest point is that you obviously aren't in Group and you're trying to sound knowledgeable on a public forum spreading information like you know. And you don't. Guessing you were some sort of support guy and you're information sounds dated. You're half right and half wrong. Like someone said above, every unit, no matter how black side has to conform to acquisition rules. Because it matters what everyone does, in a community industry. See also: PSR program. There are a lot of venues to procure one-off guns without them being a program of record, though. A lot of what people purport as being some super special OAF gun is actually a no-cost loan for T&E. But Group doesn't always just use what's issued as a POR. It's more nuanced than that.

But the point is, rando civilian guy simply just doesn't have a need to know. No matter how curious you are. DGAF if this a forum....to wait for it....discuss guns n' such. It's just plain immaterial to you.

Know how I know you did'nt read much of what I posted? Cause I laid out my experience and have no connection with group, none, nada.

This article SF and the G19 does a pretty good job of explaining it.

I'm sure that America will sleep safer tonight knowing that no one knows what SF is using for handguns.

 

[Harv24]

So then stop trying to talk about it. You're spreading false information trying make yourself sounding knowledgeable. That's poser behavior

What false information have I spread... If you read that article, there was many M9's still being used by SF...

 

[M4guru]

Plot twist: SF started getting Glock 19s before that unit got G22s (which was actually 2007) but they’d had G19s since George Washington was a Corporal. The author of that article did too, because he was on 583 and signed for them right after I signed for 582’s guns. We still had 1911s at that point, when we got Glocks I gave ours to 586 so they had spares. They loved those shits and of course they couldn’t keep them running. So anyways, there’s some chronological errors in there. Awesome dude, article is team guy barracks lawyer shit though. It’s not exactly all wrong, but it isn’t exactly right. Programmatically that’s just not how it is/was. I believe the latest batch of Gen 3 MOS guns was procured in 2015-2016 for every single mf’er, and started trickling out from there, but everyone basically had a standard Gen 3 by then from various earlier programs. I got out in April ‘16 and I hadn’t seen a team guy with a Beretta in forever.

There’s a reason this place ain’t called Pistol Hide I guess.

I think like 30% of the force posts real time pictures on Instagram now so if you go follow some SOF nuthugger pages you’ll see all the POR procured and issued Glocks.

 

[Peahi2]

View attachment 7504762

All I need to know about people making decisions on which gun is the best.

Painful to see. Are they trying to go back to Tea cupping?....I think they're moving in that direction. They've spent millions to select the pistol. Pistol handling...no so much.

 

[308pirate]

I'm sure that America will sleep safer tonight knowing that no one knows what SF is using for handguns.

It's amusing to see what some think is important or a matter of national security

 

[308pirate]

Painful to see. Are they trying to go back to Tea cupping?....I think they're moving in that direction. They've spent millions to select the pistol. Pistol handling...no so much.

LOL

 

[DJL2]

Painful to see. Are they trying to go back to Tea cupping?....I think they're moving in that direction. They've spent millions to select the pistol. Pistol handling...no so much.

Bro...no. We're not moving back to tea cupping. TC 3-23.35 is "APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE; DISTRIBUTION IS UNLIMITED" if you wanna go check out what those guys are supposed to be doing.

The problem, in a nutshell, is not that different from physical training or any other subject that requires some degree of education and expertise to training effectively. We have a LOT of leaders that simply lack the qualifications to execute those tasks...but, who execute anyway under the "fake it until you make it" line of effort rather than attempt to build the knowledge (at a minimum).

TC 3-23.35 is pretty solid. Obviously written by someone who knew WTF they were writing about. A lot of folks would be well served by reading it. The last range I ran saw a first-time-touching-a-pistol guy out shoot his 1SG. Unfortunately, we didn't have the instructor-student ratio to park a guy on every person that needed 1 on 1 instruction/correction. That's a compounding factor.

 

[squishee]

Well this was interesting.

I thought some were arguing with themselves then i hit the end and clicked show ignored users.

 

[squishee]

I want to thank Fig for hating on the 19x as it brought it back to my attention.
Bought 1 today .

 

[teddyw19]

Love sig and Glock. But the fact that the trigger control group is the serialized firearm was a major plus for the military. All the grunts breaking the polymer frame makes it easy to replace because its not serialized unlike the Glock. I have a 19x and its sweet but so are the sigs.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Love sig and Glock. But the fact that the trigger control group is the serialized firearm was a major plus for the military. All the grunts breaking the polymer frame makes it easy to replace because its not serialized unlike the Glock. I have a 19x and its sweet but so are the sigs.

How many Glocks have been breaking ya know, since SOCOM has been running them for over a decade? How many of the millions of glocks in LEO service have broken the frame?

Sig just has more shit to get lost. Modular grip pannels? All this non serialized, non trackable shit will end up lost or in the trash. People will get what they have on hand and just wait till Joe starts trying to mod them. Its a disaster waiting to happen even if they selected someone other than SIG who is guarenteed to fuck it up.

 

[teddyw19]

How many Glocks have been breaking ya know, since SOCOM has been running them for over a decade? How many of the millions of glocks in LEO service have broken the frame?

Sig just has more shit to get lost. Modular grip pannels? All this non serialized, non trackable shit will end up lost or in the trash. People will get what they have on hand and just wait till Joe starts trying to mod them. Its a disaster waiting to happen even if they selected someone other than SIG who is guarenteed to fuck it up.

Lol I agree with everything you said. And my 19x is my favorite striker fire I own with p10c being a very close second. Glad glock released them to us.

 

[ffjoey]

I personally couldn’t care less what pistol big army uses. Glock works for me so that’s what I carry.

 

[jmornoinf]

Unit XOs will box up all of the "modular" accoutrements and only issue the enditem to Soldiers regardless of hand size or preference. Modularity briefs well, but will go ary in practice.

 

[RETE8]

I’ve had enough infantry guys show me their $300 AR’s with polymer lowers and $200 uppers to disagree with that. The SF dudes are the only ones who seem to be consistently knowledgeable on the technical stuff, their feedback is certainly important, but so is the engineers who are making these things.

...you mean like the tabbed out dude in the photo above???...

 

[M4guru]

That awkward moment when you think someone's unit patch is a skill tab....

 

[M8541Reaper]

Damn...this thread is still going?

 

[IrishWind]

E-Peens need to out E-Peen each other.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/special-forces-pistols-1.5897942

 

[CrabsandFootball]

SOCOM/USASOC safety bulletin regarding SIG M18 - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

 

[308pirate]

SOCOM/USASOC safety bulletin regarding SIG M18 - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

SIG quality FTW

 

[Davo308]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/special-forces-pistols-1.5897942

That is their counter terrorist group.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Yea its their tier 1 unit. Sig already spinning excuses. I am going to say the equivelent of delta or st6 is not going to pull all guns over what sig claims is a simple ND. Much more to it.

Not to mention all the shit sig has already been caught lying about.

 

[Choid]

Yea its their tier 1 unit. Sig already spinning excuses. I am going to say the equivelent of delta or st6 is not going to pull all guns over what sig claims is a simple ND. Much more to it.

Not to mention all the shit sig has already been caught lying about.

SIG SAUER Statement on CANSOFCOM Incident | Soldier Systems Daily

Yesterday, a Canadian news outlet, CBC News, published a story regarding the unintended discharge last year of a SIG P320 by a Canadian Special Operator, re ...

soldiersystems.net

Interesting if true. You would think a tier 1 unit wouldn't be refitting kydex P226 holsters to use with their p320s. FTR, I have no idea if it is true or not.

The firearm involved has been extensively tested by SIG SAUER and it has been determined to be safe. The investigation revealed the use of an incorrect holster not designed for a P320. The use of a modified P226 holster created an unsafe condition by allowing a foreign object to enter the holster, causing the unintended discharge.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

SIG SAUER Statement on CANSOFCOM Incident | Soldier Systems Daily

Yesterday, a Canadian news outlet, CBC News, published a story regarding the unintended discharge last year of a SIG P320 by a Canadian Special Operator, re ...

soldiersystems.net

Interesting if true. You would think a tier 1 unit wouldn't be refitting kydex P226 holsters to use with their p320s. FTR, I have no idea if it is true or not.

Yea its really hard to believe a Tier 1 element with that level of training would deadline a weapon system over what they claim is a ND using a modified holster.

These guys get all the gucci gear they want and know better.

I can't imagine a shitty LE agency trying to modify holsters much less a SMU.

 

[Choid]

Yea its really hard to believe a Tier 1 element with that level of training would deadline a weapon system over what they claim is a ND using a modified holster.

These guys get all the gucci gear they want and know better.

I can't imagine a shitty LE agency trying to modify holsters much less a SMU.

Yeah, seems really dubious. If true, whoever couldn't get them real holsters should be tarred and feathered.

In the meantime, as much as I like the Sig, too many people rely on my junk for their pleasure for me to keep on shooting one. I guess back to Glocks.

 

[308pirate]

Yea its really hard to believe a Tier 1 element with that level of training would deadline a weapon system over what they claim is a ND using a modified holster.

These guys get all the gucci gear they want and know better.

I can't imagine a shitty LE agency trying to modify holsters much less a SMU.

Considering how little money Canada spends on national defense, I do think it's within the realm of possibility that even their most elite force could not afford to buy the right holsters.

And if that's the case, soliders might have done what soldiers do when they don't have something they need: adapt, improvise, and overcome.

Give me a toaster oven, a kydex holster, and a pistol that doesn't fit in it............................

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Considering how little money Canada spends on national defense, I do think it's within the realm of possibility that even their most elite force could not afford to buy the right holsters.

And if that's the case, soliders might have done what soldiers do when they don't have something they need: adapt, improvise, and overcome.

Give me a toaster oven, a kydex holster, and a pistol that doesn't fit in it............................

Its possible but at that level, they aren't asking for $100K optics, its a $50 holster.

These guys regularly train and deploy with CAG, Devgru, SAS, GROM,ect. I just have a really hard time seeing them being that jacked up. Have an even harder time seeing the service dealine a brand new weapon system due to what Sig claims is purely operator error (one that can happen with any gun).

 

[308pirate]

Have an even harder time seeing the service dealine a brand new weapon system due to what Sig claims is purely operator error (one that can happen with any gun).

Well, look at it this way, if JTF-2 is hard up for money and were using makeshift holsters, it would make sense that they would stop carrying the pistol that goes bang when stuck in the wrong holster until they can buy shit that fits.

I'm not saying you're wrong, or that I'm right. Just saying consider Occam's razor.

 

[M4guru]

LOL JTF-2 is NOT hard up for money. Their procurement is actually much more user friendly than anything in our DoD.

 

[308pirate]

LOL JTF-2 is NOT hard up for money. Their procurement is actually much more user friendly than anything in our DoD.

Procurement is the side that burns the money. They're normally not the side that sets the budget.

That starts at parliament.

But anyway, it's all speculation: yours, mine, and everyone elses.