Army to buy 107,000 Sig m5 rifles, 13,000 Sig m250 LMG, total $4.7 billion contract

[Steve_In_29]

I dont know man.

We've been saying this for generations now and I am not sure if I am buying it anymore. Before going overseas I worked at the test center for almost 10 years the whole testing thing is not as overbearing as they would have us believe. They were more than willing to spend years testinh something like that retarded supper AAV, but something as easy as a service rifle was a non starter.

We love to complain about having the shittiest gear and army hand me downs but in reality we have/had the budget to do things the right way but have a constant urge to be edge lords.

The Army funds 855A1, looks pretty good, says hey guys you want in, we say nope mk318 is the hotness. Blow a ton of money on 318 only to decide years later, oh... we are going to do 855A1 now. The same thing could pretty much happen with anything that has been accepted by the dod for procurement.

Completely retarded, can't wait to see their response towards the new sigs

My comment was in regards the regular forces (of any branch) when compared to SOCOM, with their black budgets that don't have to be justified nor sourced via open bids. That at some point a decision has to be made to set in stone what will be bought and that changing that decision mid-stream WILL throw procurement back years for the regular forces due to regulatory and oversight committees.

They spent so long "testing" that AAAV because they were trying to make it work and att had no other options. My old boss in civil service was picked up as part of the development team by the company.

As to the rifle the Marines would have had a hard time justifying the need for a new rifle and securing budgeting for it. But as part of the Army/Marine program to replace the SAW the Marines ultimate goal was hidden from view. It is interesting to note that despite the IAR supposedly picked to replace the SAW, that neither the Marines nor the Army stopped the funding on development of a belt-fed SAW replacement. With the Army going the case-less ammo route while the Marines wanted the poly ammo. Poly ammo that is now a reality on the market.

It was my understanding the Marines went with Mk318 due to the concerns over M855A1's increased barrel wear and that its two piece bullet wouldn't be as accurate as they wanted. Add to that the "non-HP" HP round they were able to take to combat with Mk318. So at least the Marine decision makers had valid points att. Not sure why the turn around to M855A1 but likely due to the costs of funding a Marine only rifle round after the war budgets were cut WAY back. Did M855A1 turn out to be an accurate round?

On the other hand the Army initially refused to adopt the PMag with M855A1 simply because the Marines supported it. Then after years and millions developing/fielding the EPM that actually ended up not working with M855A1, they then quietly adopted the PMag.

 

[TorF]

The SIG M5 must have some kind of wonder steel barrel to last 12000 rounds.
Just for laughs, how about using the same barrel steel tech in an AR15 chambered for 17rem with 1-8" shooting 30gr AP bullets, bc .3+, at 3700fps+?
Theoretically, at 500m the 17rem has the same ballistic performance as the HK MP7 has at the muzzle.

 

[Steve_In_29]

SOCOM still has to explain their budget, procure through established means, and validate requirements.

Guessing you were never a SOF guy

Two years in JSOC 81-83 as a young Marine Sgt. I was there for the first anniversary ceremony.

The level of justification and oversight for SOCOM is no where near the level the rest of the military has to endure.

 

[Steve_In_29]

A lot has happened in the last 40 years

So you go from, "you don't know anything about it" to "things have changed".

My second sentence in that post is still valid today.

 

[Steve_In_29]

Okay. Whatever. 20yrs in SOCOM here. 2 years for you 4 decades ago.

When SOCOM has to execute a comprehensive review and answer to congress there's a lot of scrutiny.

I've helped develop the requirements for SOCOM weapons as a sme. And then watched the procurement of the weapon get killed for manufacturer not meeting the contract and the resulting cries of favoritism from competitors. When SOCOM develops requirements and procures for CONUS based forces in programs of record like the one being discussed it has to go through the same or similar scrutiny and congressional mandated procurement.

But what the fuck do I know... Tell me more about when you were an E5

I appreciate your service but don't try to denigrate mine just because I was going-there-and-doing-that back when you were still discovering that it felt good to play with your pee-pee. By the way, E5 is a pay grade and not a rank in the Marines there doggy. I was a Sergeant and the SFC's I and the other Marines worked with quickly found out we were are NOT the same as an Army E5.

I never said SOCOM didn't have oversight but their budgets/projects are NOT something subject to open debate/scrutiny on the House and Senate floors. They are looked at by tame politicians on classified committees.

So please don't try to win the discussion by bending the facts. Since as the SME you say you are, you are WELL aware that SOCOM does NOT go through the same scrutiny as Big Army when they need something. Nor is SOCOM's procurement cycle stretched out for years.

Had the Marines came right out and said their goal with the IAR was a new general issue rifle, the bean counters would have shut it down so fast the former Commandant's head would still be spinning.

 

[vinniedelpino]

So $8k and expensive ammo?

I’m not excited at the moment.

Id be more excited by cheap ACOGs and uppers released through the CMP.

 

[GUNNER10]

I appreciate your service but don't try to denigrate mine just because I was going-there-and-doing-that back when you were still discovering that it felt good to play with your pee-pee. By the way, E5 is a pay grade and not a rank in the Marines there doggy. I was a Sergeant and the SFC's I and the other Marines worked with quickly found out we were are NOT the same as an Army E5.

I never said SOCOM didn't have oversight but their budgets/projects are NOT something subject to open debate/scrutiny on the House and Senate floors. They are looked at by tame politicians on classified committees.

So please don't try to win the discussion by bending the facts. Since as the SME you say you are, you are WELL aware that SOCOM does NOT go through the same scrutiny as Big Army when they need something. Nor is SOCOM's procurement cycle stretched out for years.

Had the Marines came right out and said their goal with the IAR was a new general issue rifle, the bean counters would have shut it down so fast the former Commandant's head would still be spinning.

I am not sure if this is accurate the Marines literately just adopted the M18 because they asked for a new pistol and they got it. The funding was there and the said send over NSN XXX. Its difficult to assert that the bean counters would somehow lose their minds over a service rifle but basically say sure no problem to to a service pistols.

They have all the ability in the world to take DOD acceptance data and say here is the money, send that over.

At the end of the day, It will be interesting to see how this whole experiment with M5 and M250 pans out.

 

[Steve_In_29]

I am not sure if this is accurate the Marines literately just adopted the M18 because they asked for a new pistol and they got it. The funding was there and the said send over NSN XXX. Its difficult to assert that the bean counters would somehow lose their minds over a service rifle but basically say sure no problem to to a service pistols.

They have all the ability in the world to take DOD acceptance data and say here is the money, send that over.

At the end of the day, It will be interesting to see how this whole experiment with M5 and M250 pans out.

Not the same thing. Everyone got a new pistol with the dumping of the Beretta M9. The M18 was just a variant of the M17 which was designed to be able to provide that variant from the git go.

At the time it started, getting a new rifle for just the Marines wasn't going to fly.

 

[Winny94]

I appreciate your service but don't try to denigrate mine just because I was going-there-and-doing-that back when you were still discovering that it felt good to play with your pee-pee. By the way, E5 is a pay grade and not a rank in the Marines there doggy. I was a Sergeant and the SFC's I and the other Marines worked with quickly found out we were are NOT the same as an Army E5.

I never said SOCOM didn't have oversight but their budgets/projects are NOT something subject to open debate/scrutiny on the House and Senate floors. They are looked at by tame politicians on classified committees.

So please don't try to win the discussion by bending the facts. Since as the SME you say you are, you are WELL aware that SOCOM does NOT go through the same scrutiny as Big Army when they need something. Nor is SOCOM's procurement cycle stretched out for years.

Had the Marines came right out and said their goal with the IAR was a new general issue rifle, the bean counters would have shut it down so fast the former Commandant's head would still be spinning.

You did say those budgets dont have to be justified, which sounds patently false.

 

[Steve_In_29]

You did say those budgets dont have to be justified, which sounds patently false.

You got me there and I used too broad of a term. I meant it in the context that they don't have to be justified in the way Big Army and the (non-SOF parts of) other Branches have to.

The budgets are black and not open to public scrutiny by anyone outside the community other then a few politicians that have the necessary security clearance to be on the oversight committee.

I would venture that there has been VERY little that JSOC and SOCOM have asked for that they haven't received.

 

[Aftermath]

Are each of these rifles worth the $39,000 tag?
Asking for a friend of mine that pays taxes in the USA. Lots of them.

 

[USMC-FURY]

SIG IS T R A S H !!!

 

[C-130 Dude]

While the 5.56 mm reaches its lethality limits at or before the 300 meter range, the 6.8 mm can effectively destroy targets at 600 meters and beyond, according to Army officials.

So if I am 301 meters away I'm gtg if the other guy has a 5.56?

Yes

 

[Im2bent]

Yes

Sweet just ordered my new light weight plate carrier

 

[Archer0826]

Sam

Who did Sig payoff to get all these contracts? Most of their products are meh. Their older European rifles are sweet though.

Same people that sold the M9 to the army. Springfield or Smith could have come up with better.

 

[beavis1971]

...I found the statement about the cartridge selected to be an interesting twist, what with the recent advent of the 6ARC. As was pointed out in the article, it's intended initially for "close combat forces", but also has greater lethality beyond the current 5.56's "300 meters".

....not alot of technical info on the selected round, just it's caliber....wondering if, and how much, it might diverge from the current SAAMI 6.8 SPC II specs, i.e., ala SIG's proprietary casing that allows much greater PSI operation?

...there will be lots of debate in the civilian firearms communities about the "lethality" aspect when comparing the 6ARC & 6.8 cartridges, especially in regards to the "distance" factor.

...it will be a while before the services transition completely due the quantity of 5.56 ammo stocks that the services have inventoried, not to mention NATO allies. I doubt we will be seeing any "dumping" of those inventories to the civilian markets just to hasten the services transition.

I can't find the article at the moment but the one I read stated that the new rifles would be firing rounds capable of 83K psi chamber pressure. I am sure that will really help with barrel life.

 

[Babo]

Not if I'm holding it.

Exactly right.

 

[alanapone]

Not sure if anyone posted this yet but I just saw the thread title in my daily roundup.

$39000 per unit!!

Surely their is more than just the weaponry being sold here?

 

[n2ishun]

Not sure if anyone posted this yet but I just saw the thread title in my daily roundup.

$39000 per unit!!

Surely their is more than just the weaponry being sold here?

Of course, blowjobs all around.
Duh.

 

[pmclaine]

Not sure if anyone posted this yet but I just saw the thread title in my daily roundup.

$39000 per unit!!

Surely their is more than just the weaponry being sold here?

Well you got to have spares.....

I think in the walnut and steel days per unit costs were about $120. M-16 was less than $150/ea.

An M1 was like $85 or something. Granted that was a lot of money than but not $39k.

Cloward and Piven

 

[Fig]

A M1911 cost the government $15 in 1940. That's $240 in today's dollars.
A Thompson was $45 in 1945 (the price went down from $270 as contracts got bigger during the course of the war).

I remember seeing a controlled equipage list that had values listed and the rickety 1911s we were still using cost $25 when they bought them...

Even if it included spare parts and full support for the life of the weapon I'm not seeing $39,000. That can't be right.

 

[308pirate]

So?

The transmission in my car is made there too. Runs fucking sweet.

 

[308pirate]

Are each of these rifles worth the $39,000 tag?

The contract is not for just rifles and machine guns. There are spare parts, tools, training, logistics, and possibly some one time expenses like R&D that are covered.

It's never that simple.

 

[308pirate]

Even if it included spare parts and full support for the life of the weapon I'm not seeing $39,000. That can't be right.

Does the contract include ammo? One time charges like R&D, prototyping, production tooling, testing and qualification?

 

[Fig]

Sure, I get that's baked into the price, and those numbers add up for 120,000 weapons, but when you break it down to the unit price you see just how fabulously irresponsible, stupid, and utterly retarded this deal actually is. Should cost 1/3 of that at the very most all things considered.

I would think that if this included ammo for the life of the weapon that would have been said. I'll bet it only includes the manufacturers hard costs, and what's a few more billion of our dollars anyway?

I do want the "Best" equipment for our soldiers, but this is fucking dumb. At some point there is a cost/benefit analysis, and this doesn't make it at $40k/unit, period.

 

[308pirate]

Sure, I get that's baked into the price, and those numbers add up for 120,000 weapons, but when you break it down to the unit price you see just how fabulously irresponsible, stupid, and utterly retarded this deal actually is. Should cost 1/3 of that at the very most all things considered.

I would think that if this included ammo for the life of the weapon that would have been said. I'll bet it only includes the manufacturers hard costs, and what's a few more billion of our dollars anyway?

I do want the "Best" equipment for our soldiers, but this is fucking dumb. At some point there is a cost/benefit analysis, and this doesn't make it at $40k/unit, period.

How much do you think the tooling bill is for the entire manufacturing run of both products? There's a lot that we don't know because we can't see the contract.

I don't see how using unit costs of old ass guns is anywhere close to accurate.

Product costing is something I do every day, including stuff for .gov contracts.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

How much do you think the tooling bill is for the entire manufacturing run of both products? There's a lot that we don't know because we can't see the contract.

I don't see how using unit costs of old ass guns is anywhere close to accurate.

Product costing is something I do every day, including stuff for .gov contracts.

You can't reason with people who A. have zero business experience and B. have zero government contracting experience.

To break down with 308 is telling you, The government funds the development of weapon systems. Its not 1940 anymore where a company comes up with a design on their own dime, and then tries to sell it to the government. Costs today are way to high to gamble as well as government requirements and specifics are so exact that its impossible to get your money back, much less make a return on the investment. Same thing happened with the SCAR program.

The US tells sig to design them a weapon. They will pay for the R&D cost which a portion of this is most likely baked into the contract along with everything from spares to ammo, to onsite contractor support to accessories and their spares. I am not privy to the structure of the contract, but usualy there is a R&D contract to develop and then any other costs are passed on to the first production run making it look more expensive than it really is.

If somehow this gun gets widespread adoption, which i seriously doubt it will, the cost per unit will amortize and come down significantly. In 2005 a Colt M4 cost less than $600 to the government. That is what happens when you have already bought tens of millions for half the western world.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Sure, I get that's baked into the price, and those numbers add up for 120,000 weapons, but when you break it down to the unit price you see just how fabulously irresponsible, stupid, and utterly retarded this deal actually is. Should cost 1/3 of that at the very most all things considered.

I would think that if this included ammo for the life of the weapon that would have been said. I'll bet it only includes the manufacturers hard costs, and what's a few more billion of our dollars anyway?

I do want the "Best" equipment for our soldiers, but this is fucking dumb. At some point there is a cost/benefit analysis, and this doesn't make it at $40k/unit, period.

A US soldier is worth about 750k-1M. That is a run of the mill soldier/airmen/sailor ect. SOF, Pilots, Nukemen and other specialties are worth much much more.

SLGI is $400K
Death Gratituity is $100K
Recruiting & Training Cost $100K
Healthcare, billeting and misc services $150K
Equipment loss when KIA $5-25K.
Medivac- Advanced Care cost to try and save someone $50-200K
Bunch of other costs that are harder to capture.

They are already running around with $40K weapon systems and optics packages. Hell I used to run a $400K laser optical device, and that was without the mounting system.

What you think things "should" cost and what they actually do are not the same.

 

[Makinchips208]

You guys have more knowledge than me, and I’m not questioning your opinions of the pricing, but it does seem that the private sector could do an equal or better job for far less.
That said, this is not for the private sector with option to be applied to military like the old days, as you already mentioned.

 

[GUNNER10]

Sure, I get that's baked into the price, and those numbers add up for 120,000 weapons, but when you break it down to the unit price you see just how fabulously irresponsible, stupid, and utterly retarded this deal actually is. Should cost 1/3 of that at the very most all things considered.

I would think that if this included ammo for the life of the weapon that would have been said. I'll bet it only includes the manufacturers hard costs, and what's a few more billion of our dollars anyway?

I do want the "Best" equipment for our soldiers, but this is fucking dumb. At some point there is a cost/benefit analysis, and this doesn't make it at $40k/unit, period.

While the contract price amortized across the number of weapons may come out to 40k, there is actually a lot of bullshit that goes along with the stuff that you really need to dive into the contract to figure out. The blub mention's, ammo, spares, optics, and engineer support for 10 years. half the contract looks to be dedicated towards the fire control system/optic. so of that 40k you are looking at 20k for electro optics, which is not crazy, and 10 years with of spares and ammo. So really you are probably looking closer to 5 to 10k for the stand alone rifle which is right in line with what we pay for M110's Scars, and Beltfeds.


In some regards i think the M5 is a little silly but we shall see. I am more excited to see how the M250 is integrated, especially compared to the Mk48's

 

[slowlearner]

Soooo…who has read the specific contract for exactly what is included for the cost and number of units? All I have read so far in this thread is a bunch of people throwing ideas at a wall, with some much more likely to be correct than others.

Until the exact scope of the contract is known, speculation is fairly pointless.

The new rifle offers advantages and disadvantages. I only wonder what forums would have looked like when we went from trapdoor rifles to bolt actions, or revolvers to semi-automatics. I’m sure the speculation would have been just as wild with similar levels of unintelligible nonsense by people that will never use the equipment.

 

[Im2bent]

Soooo…who has read the specific contract for exactly what is included for the cost and number of units? All I have read so far in this thread is a bunch of people throwing ideas at a wall, with some much more likely to be correct than others.

Until the exact scope of the contract is known, speculation is fairly pointless.

The new rifle offers advantages and disadvantages. I only wonder what forums would have looked like when we went from trapdoor rifles to bolt actions, or revolvers to semi-automatics. I’m sure the speculation would have been just as wild with similar levels of unintelligible nonsense by people that will never use the equipment.

Damn you are a slow learner how dare you use logic and common sense here.

 

[slowlearner]

Damn you are a slow learner how dare you use logic and common sense here.

Bingo! it seems to be less and less common. I tend to keep my mouth shut on the hide because I recognize that there are many folks that are further down the path of learning.

As someone who has seen the rifle and MG shoot, and have actual experience with the optics, I’ll be interested to see the roll out of it.

Heck, the M17 change over was impressively fast for the army in my book.

 

[cas6969]

We're going to pair these really expensive flat shooting rifles with obscenely expensive optics that make it's flatness far less important. Because that's government at work.

 

[Strykervet]

So you guys are aware that these rifles won't be issued in bulk to just every joe in the army right? The first batch goes to SFG, the second batch to the Ranger batt's, then the infantry components of SBCT's, finally to "other" infantry units.

So they're just for the infantry. Everyone else still gets M4's.

And as a former SDM instructor with a shitload of time behind an M4/ACOG and an insane amount of range time, IMO, yeah, we needed something better for a long goddamn time. Trust me. Training SDM's to hit shit with an ACOG and an M4 firing M855 at moving targets at 600m isn't easy --and the damn round doesn't really do much that far out. You have a 1 in 3 chance of hitting most targets that distance with that setup in the first place (that's saying the shot is perfect to begin with) and even less to hit an unprotected vital. The round goes transonic just beyond that so then it's just pure luck and not much different that just using a .22lr.

And while the M4 is great for personal security and combat within the 300m range where pretty much all soldiers get tested/qualify, and where the army figured engagements would happen (first in the jungles, then in urban combat) it turns out that 20 years in the desert shot that idea to shit...

I was upset I didn't get my M8 back in the day --now glad that didn't happen.

This new rifle has what I think are similar, if not slightly better, ballistics to the 6.8 Western (which IMO is the civilian version of this round that uses a traditional brass case, essentially a .308 case with a 6.8mm bullet and ballistics that just piss all over the Creedmoor).

The glass is what we needed twenty years ago but I haven't looked at it in detail.

HOWEVER, there are cons, the most being the fact many commanders still don't take marksmanship serious --just "fire in the general direction and fire a lot" attitude. They're generally more interested in finding ways to waste soldier's time, like sitting in barracks ALL DAY, then at the last minute making all this shit happen so they go home. Procrastinating on field exercises. Doing spendex's yearly because they NEVER go to the range, then waste millions of rounds literally firing at 25m targets on burst ALL DAY for days on end until they run out, just so they can get the same lot of ammo to do it all again next year --now that's wasteful (but the demo spendex's, those were fun and big thanks goes out to all the tax payers in the early 2000's --I had a "blast" --get it!?).. It sort of undermined what we did at the advanced infantry skills center where we were trying to turn that shit around (we had one of those rare, excellent commanders that really cared about accelerating infantry proficiency in all areas, taking the best at their job and putting them in charge of training regardless of rank, piss and shit politics or big green policies). But again, this was very rare, and the first thing the new commander did was to dismantle the skills center, said we were "a bunch of cowboys that got away with murder" --was mostly pissed because we didn't wear rank, made up our own uniforms, didn't teach traditional army marksmanship principles like dime drills and zeroing at 25m and farting around on popup ranges.

So yeah, I do see the technology being wasted as many commanders will see the technology as a "fix" for lack of basic marksmanship abilities and IMO, won't even begin to know how to use or employ these rifle correctly, let alone train the soldiers to be able to get the most out of them. It's sad really.

But in the right hands with the right training, this rifle can be a game changer.

And FWIW, I do expect it to have initial problems. It's a new weapon being given to guys that can break a goddamn hammer with a rubber duck.

I also knew Sig was gonna get the contract three years ago. Why wouldn't they? They're the new Remington. In bed with the generals and politicians. That POS M17 is proof alone. I just hope the rifle doesn't have too many problems out of the gate... But there'll be an A1 and A2, etc., version to patch deficiencies like always.

As for bitching about tax dollars, there are a fuck load of other areas we can save money. Like for one, not upgrading ALL those rusting tanks in the desert that the army itself said it doesn't need.... Or two different engines and half million dollar helmets or whatever for one fighter jet.

And if it was you or your kid, you'd want them to have this, trust me. BTDT and memory ain't that goddamn bad yet...

 

[TonyTheTiger]

HOWEVER, there are cons, the most being the fact many commanders still don't take marksmanship serious --just "fire in the general direction and fire a lot" attitude. They're generally more interested in finding ways to waste soldier's time, like sitting in barracks ALL DAY, then at the last minute making all this shit happen so they go home.

So yeah, I do see the technology being wasted as many commanders will see the technology as a "fix" for lack of basic marksmanship abilities and IMO, won't even begin to know how to use or employ these rifle correctly, let alone train the soldiers to be able to get the most out of them. It's sad really.

This is something I've always wondered about. I don't have any of the military experience you're talking about but I see a lot of parallels at matches.
Both civilians and the mil/leo guys I see at matches spend a ton of time talking about the gear needed to excel, that being a firearm or an accessory or ballistics all while being truly awful at shooting. They can suck at every aspect of shooting, moving, position building, speed, thinking on their feet, the level of fitness required to stay oxygenated during a stage, clearing the malfunctions that they are usually to blame for. Then after they bomb a stage they immediately go back to discussing ways to buy performance.
All these "new high speed gear for .mil" threads seem to attract similar comments and mindsets. I've got good friends in or formerly in the military that in theory could have benefited from this gear, but then I watch them shoot and I can't help but think high speed gear is putting the cart before the horse.

 

[RUTGERS95]

So you guys are aware that these rifles won't be issued in bulk to just every joe in the army right? The first batch goes to SFG, the second batch to the Ranger batt's, then the infantry components of SBCT's, finally to "other" infantry units.

So they're just for the infantry. Everyone else still gets M4's.

And as a former SDM instructor with a shitload of time behind an M4/ACOG and an insane amount of range time, IMO, yeah, we needed something better for a long goddamn time. Trust me. Training SDM's to hit shit with an ACOG and an M4 firing M855 at moving targets at 600m isn't easy --and the damn round doesn't really do much that far out. You have a 1 in 3 chance of hitting most targets that distance with that setup in the first place (that's saying the shot is perfect to begin with) and even less to hit an unprotected vital. The round goes transonic just beyond that so then it's just pure luck and not much different that just using a .22lr.

And while the M4 is great for personal security and combat within the 300m range where pretty much all soldiers get tested/qualify, and where the army figured engagements would happen (first in the jungles, then in urban combat) it turns out that 20 years in the desert shot that idea to shit...

I was upset I didn't get my M8 back in the day --now glad that didn't happen.

This new rifle has what I think are similar, if not slightly better, ballistics to the 6.8 Western (which IMO is the civilian version of this round that uses a traditional brass case, essentially a .308 case with a 6.8mm bullet and ballistics that just piss all over the Creedmoor).

The glass is what we needed twenty years ago but I haven't looked at it in detail.

HOWEVER, there are cons, the most being the fact many commanders still don't take marksmanship serious --just "fire in the general direction and fire a lot" attitude. They're generally more interested in finding ways to waste soldier's time, like sitting in barracks ALL DAY, then at the last minute making all this shit happen so they go home. Procrastinating on field exercises. Doing spendex's yearly because they NEVER go to the range, then waste millions of rounds literally firing at 25m targets on burst ALL DAY for days on end until they run out, just so they can get the same lot of ammo to do it all again next year --now that's wasteful (but the demo spendex's, those were fun and big thanks goes out to all the tax payers in the early 2000's --I had a "blast" --get it!?).. It sort of undermined what we did at the advanced infantry skills center where we were trying to turn that shit around (we had one of those rare, excellent commanders that really cared about accelerating infantry proficiency in all areas, taking the best at their job and putting them in charge of training regardless of rank, piss and shit politics or big green policies). But again, this was very rare, and the first thing the new commander did was to dismantle the skills center, said we were "a bunch of cowboys that got away with murder" --was mostly pissed because we didn't wear rank, made up our own uniforms, didn't teach traditional army marksmanship principles like dime drills and zeroing at 25m and farting around on popup ranges.

So yeah, I do see the technology being wasted as many commanders will see the technology as a "fix" for lack of basic marksmanship abilities and IMO, won't even begin to know how to use or employ these rifle correctly, let alone train the soldiers to be able to get the most out of them. It's sad really.

But in the right hands with the right training, this rifle can be a game changer.

And FWIW, I do expect it to have initial problems. It's a new weapon being given to guys that can break a goddamn hammer with a rubber duck.

I also knew Sig was gonna get the contract three years ago. Why wouldn't they? They're the new Remington. In bed with the generals and politicians. That POS M17 is proof alone. I just hope the rifle doesn't have too many problems out of the gate... But there'll be an A1 and A2, etc., version to patch deficiencies like always.

As for bitching about tax dollars, there are a fuck load of other areas we can save money. Like for one, not upgrading ALL those rusting tanks in the desert that the army itself said it doesn't need.... Or two different engines and half million dollar helmets or whatever for one fighter jet.

And if it was you or your kid, you'd want them to have this, trust me. BTDT and memory ain't that goddamn bad yet...

it's not a 600m platform which is the reason you want something else. 95% of global engagements happen inside of 300meters. This is huge waste of resources. You can't use a bush knife to filet fish and expect excellent results.

 

[Steve_In_29]

I'm genuinely curious why you always come across as so authoritive and sure of your statements. You're probably going to take this as a dick punch but here's how I read your statements. FWIW to you.

"The budgets are black and not open to public scrutiny by anyone outside the community other then a few politicians that have the necessary security clearance to be on the oversight committee."

While funding of OAI's can be classified, funding of programs of record for large scale programs of record for conus based formations isn't. Which is what we're talking about. Force Modernization of weapons for a "common to all" system. It's like you're mixing and matching myths, perceptions, and half truths to weave a belief that you deliver as a statement authoritively. But I see parts and pieces of your posts and can tell you're going off mismatched fragments.

So just curious. What experience are you speaking from? What involvement or participation have you had in Force Modernization or a G8 functional area in the last 20 years? Or funding of programs of record?

Sorry for the slow reply. I was dealing with car repairs.

While I was doing that it hit me that I am conflating one level of spec-ops with another in my replies.

SOCOM has always been the visible and public face of the SOF community and as such their accquisition procedures are more akin to Big Army's. Though I still maintain SOCOM doesn't need to beg as hard for money or justify equipment needs as the regular forces.

While JSOC was the in the shadows part. The .Gov was actively denying we even existed while I was there and for quite some time afterwards. AFAIK, their budget is still classified to this day.

 

[Milf Dots]

What's the Geissele carbine model reportedly being ordered by SoF and does Geissele offer a civilian version of it in 14.5 or 16 inch?

 

[GUNNER10]

What's the Geissele carbine model reportedly being ordered by SoF and does Geissele offer a civilian version of it in 14.5 or 16 inch?

It's the URG. They sell them.

 

[Milf Dots]

It's the URG. They sell them.

I can't remember who kept saying that SoF was ordering Noveske and Geissele rifles and not piston based guns, but I'm disappointed it's just the URG-I uppers and not some new complete rifle model.

 

[slowlearner]

I can't remember who kept saying that SoF was ordering Noveske and Geissele rifles and not piston based guns, but I'm disappointed it's just the URG-I uppers and not some new complete rifle model.

Why would they do complete rifles when the uppers work on the already owned, and functional lowers?

 

[Jsp556]

Isnt the handguard the only thing Geissele on the URG upgrade? Last I’d read, the barrels were from Daniel Defense. Lol

 

[Lightning8]

I will add another "cost" to the new rifle and ammo combo. Ranges. I suspect that few of the US military rifle ranges will fit this new rifle and round combo into their current safety range fans so the ranges will need millions of $$ in modifications, upgrades, etc. Common for the Operations side of the Army to get a new weapon system and not work with the Facilities side of the Army to insure that the infrastructure is synchronized. It takes years to get a Military Construction through Congress - programmed way out. So new high speed low drag system shows up and Soldiers have nowhere to qualify with it. Example I saw first hand was the surge of UAVs (aerial drones) that were expedited and pushed to units with no facilities to support them and issues getting FAA to approve their flight patterns.

 

[GUNNER10]

I can't remember who kept saying that SoF was ordering Noveske and Geissele rifles and not piston based guns, but I'm disappointed it's just the URG-I uppers and not some new complete rifle model.

Honestly, I don't think there are really any game changers out there and while I have come around on the idea of Piston AR's. good guns are good guns.

 

[GUNNER10]

Isnt the handguard the only thing Geissele on the URG upgrade? Last I’d read, the barrels were from Daniel Defense. Lol

lol,

I think so... There is a long thread about it, but think its essentially its just a mid length 14.5 mix master. Seems like a ok upper.

 

[Milf Dots]

I can't remember who kept saying that SoF was ordering Noveske and Geissele rifles and not piston based guns, but I'm disappointed it's just the URG-I uppers and not some new complete rifle model.

On their own budget SoF order Geissele URG-I complete uppers and attach them to complete m4a1 lowers already paid for by Big Army- definitely a cost savings over ordering "unique to SoF" complete rifles on SoF's own budgets.

 

[Jsp556]

The URG-I was basically a reliability upgrade. The 14.5 middy had more rounds between failure and less parts wear. It’s just a freefloated, hammer forged, mid length gassed barrel on an m4.

IN my honest, nonprofessional, unqualified, civilian opinion, the only upgrade left to be done to the m4 is in the bolt. LMT and KAC have already shown them how to improve there.

 

[GUNNER10]

The URG-I was basically a reliability upgrade. The 14.5 middy had more rounds between failure and less parts wear. It’s just a freefloated, hammer forged, mid length gassed barrel on an m4.

IN my honest, nonprofessional, unqualified, civilian opinion, the only upgrade left to be done to the m4 is in the bolt. LMT and KAC have already shown them how to improve there.

While I shoot a lot of KAC and LMT's, You are definitely not wrong that the URG evolution of the M4 is a pretty damn good rifle. I would like to grab one one eventually