Army To Replace The 9mm

[no1special]

in a time of decreasing military budgets a new cartridge/handgun is very low on priority list. congress sees it as unimportant as no "FLASH" for the next election. can't compete with a new model ship or plane. plus how much 9mm is in the pipeline? rest of nato will scream loss of common ammo. not a good way to get the world to "love" us.

 

[catatonic]

GetSome? There are times when the rifle runs dry.

Only the Special Forces can use the 45 and yes even in the +p and +p+ rating it is not the stopper the .45 is.

The only real benefit to the 9mm is when it is suppressed unless they have made big progress on the 40 or 45?

For the love of God.

Let me tell you how sidearms are issued in the .mil, SOF units have the option, most infantry do not, military police, and generally rank will get you one to tote around the FOB.

Please do some ballistic research, .45 isn't the end all be all of handgun calibers. The advantages to 9mm are much more then suppressed, not to mention the fact that a suppressed handgun has a VERY small niche in the military as a whole. Try higher capacity, lower recoil, and the ability to use all the other NATO countries ammo when needed (gotta figure out logistics from thousands of miles away from where your shit is). Again if a Soldier, Marine, Airman, Sailor, or whatever is using a handgun IT IS A BAD DAY. The ONLY time a handgun is a primary weapon for use is when you're an MP on patrol.

Please don't respond with "I only use .45 because they don't make a .46"

 

[Smcarroll]

For the love of God.

Let me tell you how sidearms are issued in the .mil, SOF units have the option, most infantry do not, military police, and generally rank will get you one to tote around the FOB.

Please do some ballistic research, .45 isn't the end all be all of handgun calibers. The advantages to 9mm are much more then suppressed, not to mention the fact that a suppressed handgun has a VERY small niche in the military as a whole. Try higher capacity, lower recoil, and the ability to use all the other NATO countries ammo when needed (gotta figure out logistics from thousands of miles away from where your shit is). Again if a Soldier, Marine, Airman, Sailor, or whatever is using a handgun IT IS A BAD DAY. The ONLY time a handgun is a primary weapon for use is when you're an MP on patrol.

Please don't respond with "I only use .45 because they don't make a .46"

Actually they do, 460 S&W.

 

[catatonic]

Actually they do, 460 S&W.

No .46 ACP

 

[Niles Coyote]

Hope they wait long enough to get things right cause low velocity lumps of lead suck at killing in all but skilled hands and a lucky few.

 

[icu812]

Why the hell would they scrap the m9 now? Seems like a waste of $$$.

 

[shankster..]

My buddy that was 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (1st SFOD-D) said that they are looking about to adopt the FN 5.9x30 cartridge.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Was a dumb move to go to the 9mm when we did most of the tier 1 units still use the 45 although it's always about bullet placement I would still vote for a 230 grain +p as the round to base the gun on

I also agree it won't happen for 5-10 years anyway if at all

SEALs use Sig 9mms, Delta uses Glock .40s, and MARSOC uses G19s and 1911s.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Actually they do, 460 S&W.

The .460 S&W magnum shoots a .452 bullet, same as the .45 ACP.

 

[pawprint2]

Hope they wait long enough to get things right cause low velocity lumps of lead suck at killing in all but skilled hands and a lucky few.

This just does not square with the vast historical record. From the low velocity lumps of lead that almost wiped out the Bison, to the probability of a one round kill with a 45ACP (based again on actual facts), it appears large heave slow moving chunks of lead do seem to have a very final effect on their targets. Am I suggesting that fast light projectiles do not also work well? Hell no, but the 45 has far to much historical evidence (actual kills) to suggest it is in any way "not effective".

 

[proneshooter]

This just does not square with the vast historical record. From the low velocity lumps of lead that almost wiped out the Bison, to the probability of a one round kill with a 45ACP (based again on actual facts), it appears large heave slow moving chunks of lead do seem to have a very final effect on their targets. Am I suggesting that fast light projectiles do not also work well? Hell no, but the 45 has far to much historical evidence (actual kills) to suggest it is in any way "not effective".

Q: How many people did the German Army kill with 9x19 pistols during WWI and II?
A: At least as many as we did with .45 ACP, if not more.

 

[Niles Coyote]

This just does not square with the vast historical record. From the low velocity lumps of lead that almost wiped out the Bison, to the probability of a one round kill with a 45ACP (based again on actual facts), it appears large heave slow moving chunks of lead do seem to have a very final effect on their targets. Am I suggesting that fast light projectiles do not also work well? Hell no, but the 45 has far to much historical evidence (actual kills) to suggest it is in any way "not effective".

Maybe so but let me ask which you would rather be hit with a 230 grain slug at 700-800ish or a much lighter slug at 2-3 times that speed. I do a lot of hunting with a muzzleloader and several handguns and can sure see a difference in a subsonic impact verses supersonic... just about anything will kill given proper shot placement or enough time.

 

[Deadshot2]

Why? Because sometimes you NEED a pistol. With your theory, there would be no reason to even carry a handgun.

When I served the only troops that were issued a sidearm were those manning crew served weapons, MP's, and pompous-assed officers.

Most of the 1911's that were issued rattled like a baby rattle when you shook them. Weren't accurate much beyond bayonet range.

 

[trauma1]

For the love of God.

Let me tell you how sidearms are issued in the .mil, SOF units have the option, most infantry do not, military police, and generally rank will get you one to tote around the FOB.

Please do some ballistic research, .45 isn't the end all be all of handgun calibers. The advantages to 9mm are much more then suppressed, not to mention the fact that a suppressed handgun has a VERY small niche in the military as a whole. Try higher capacity, lower recoil, and the ability to use all the other NATO countries ammo when needed (gotta figure out logistics from thousands of miles away from where your shit is). Again if a Soldier, Marine, Airman, Sailor, or whatever is using a handgun IT IS A BAD DAY. The ONLY time a handgun is a primary weapon for use is when you're an MP on patrol.

Please don't respond with "I only use .45 because they don't make a .46"

Roger that! Side arm will inevitably become nothing more than a tool in hand to hand when you run dry



Trauma1

 

[pawprint2]

,

Q: How many people did the German Army kill with 9x19 pistols during WWI and II?
A: At least as many as we did with .45 ACP, if not more.

You must have gotten busy, and did not read my complete post! If you would have taken the extra 2 seconds, I did mention fast light projectiles, please re-read. How many people did the german army kill with 9 x 19 is a ridiculous argument-I'm surprised you'd make it! This would be like asking how many people were killed by 8mm mauser, as opposed to the 3006 in WW-I, by just using these numbers-the 8mm mauser must be a superior caliber. I believe utilizing the one shot kill data, I, would be a far better way to determine killing power. Between grease guns, Thompson sub guns, 1911's etc, I am un able to find the exact numbers you seem to have access to, please direct me to the source of this info. Do you also have any info on the exact number of one shot kills made by 7.62 x 25 sub gun? I believe there is some Actual data, based on let's say, a several year period, on all deaths from a single handgun round, and let's also say for the entire U.S., when we study this, how effective is the 45? It sounds as if the 45 round alone is very inaccurate and doesn't have the special killing powder associated with the 9mm Luger. Is the 45 really as inaccurate as some claim? How close to a man sized target do you need to be, in order to even hit the target? I have several 1911s chambered for 45ACP, I beginning to think I have some really amazing guns, they must be worth a fortune, they must be close to the most accurate 45's ever made!! If a gun chambered for a 45 is so inaccurate, I've just gotten lucky.
How many Jews did the German Army kill with a 9 x19 in the back of the head during WWII? Are you counting this as combat kills? I hope not.
Are you saying if I take a 1911 chambered in 9mm Luger, it is more likely to be more accurate than if it is chambered in 45ACP? Where does one find this data?

 

[pmclaine]

Q: How many people did the German Army kill with 9x19 pistols during WWI and II?
A: At least as many as we did with .45 ACP, if not more.

I tend to think the German Army had more kills with 9x19 but thats because when the target is on its knees at the edge of a pit.....well you get the idea.

 

[Veer_G]

How many Jews did the German Army kill with a 9 x19 in the back of the head during WWII? Are you counting this as combat kills? I hope not.

The German Army, or Heer, and the SS, or Schutzstaffel, were quite different. Don't mistake one for the other.

 

[pmclaine]

The German Army, or Heer, and the SS, or Schutzstaffel, were quite different. Don't mistake one for the other.

I think you will find the soldiers followed orders regardless of branch of ideology.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Maybe so but let me ask which you would rather be hit with a 230 grain slug at 700-800ish or a much lighter slug at 2-3 times that speed. I do a lot of hunting with a muzzleloader and several handguns and can sure see a difference in a subsonic impact verses supersonic... just about anything will kill given proper shot placement or enough time.

This. Ive never got the chance to go after Elk, but believe it or not, from my experience, either the .223 or .308 are much more effective on hogs than .45-70. Ive seen hogs soak up .45-70 hits like nothing. There were a few instances where it really didnt make any sense at all.

Just saying.

And yes I know hogs are quite a bit tougher than your average human when it comes to taking gunshot wounds.

 

[Veer_G]

The German Army, or Heer, and the SS, or Schutzstaffel, were quite different. Don't mistake one for the other.

I think you will find the soldiers followed orders regardless of branch of ideology.

Soldiers? Some soldiers would be offended at the comparison. MacArthur's "duty, honor, country" doesn't equate to participating in genocide as a matter of clandestine, official policy.

 

[Doc68]

+1, and yet those 120k seem to all come back with "PTSD" and war stories, even though they never left the FOB. That's one of the few things in life that actually gets me bent out of shape.

+100. Totally agree

 

[Smcarroll]

When I served the only troops that were issued a sidearm were those manning crew served weapons, MP's, and pompous-assed officers.

Most of the 1911's that were issued rattled like a baby rattle when you shook them. Weren't accurate much beyond bayonet range.

I bet sergeant York was happy to have a 1911.

 

[Veer_G]

I bet sergeant York was happy to have a 1911.

Given the born-on date of the one that he had, I doubt that it sounded like a maraca when shaken.

 

[Smcarroll]

Given the born-on date of the one that he had, I doubt that it sounded like a maraca when shaken.

I bet it would still have killed krauts at that range if it did.I would rather have a hi point as a last resort than foul language and karate chops.

 

[proneshooter]

,
You must have gotten busy, and did not read my complete post! If you would have taken the extra 2 seconds, I did mention fast light projectiles, please re-read. How many people did the german army kill with 9 x 19 is a ridiculous argument-I'm surprised you'd make it! This would be like asking how many people were killed by 8mm mauser, as opposed to the 3006 in WW-I, by just using these numbers-the 8mm mauser must be a superior caliber. I believe utilizing the one shot kill data, I, would be a far better way to determine killing power. Between grease guns, Thompson sub guns, 1911's etc, I am un able to find the exact numbers you seem to have access to, please direct me to the source of this info. Do you also have any info on the exact number of one shot kills made by 7.62 x 25 sub gun? I believe there is some Actual data, based on let's say, a several year period, on all deaths from a single handgun round, and let's also say for the entire U.S., when we study this, how effective is the 45? It sounds as if the 45 round alone is very inaccurate and doesn't have the special killing powder associated with the 9mm Luger. Is the 45 really as inaccurate as some claim? How close to a man sized target do you need to be, in order to even hit the target? I have several 1911s chambered for 45ACP, I beginning to think I have some really amazing guns, they must be worth a fortune, they must be close to the most accurate 45's ever made!! If a gun chambered for a 45 is so inaccurate, I've just gotten lucky.
How many Jews did the German Army kill with a 9 x19 in the back of the head during WWII? Are you counting this as combat kills? I hope not.
Are you saying if I take a 1911 chambered in 9mm Luger, it is more likely to be more accurate than if it is chambered in 45ACP? Where does one find this data?

Stream of consciousness

 

[Maggot]

Given the born-on date of the one that he had, I doubt that it sounded like a maraca when shaken.

Or lack thereof

 

[Veer_G]

Stream of consciousness

Hey, it worked for Bill Faulkner.

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