I just seen the new sniper magazine and it had an article on adjusting your scope so as to use all mils on the reticule to save from dialing kinda like a "pore mans Horus reticule" as it is said in the article. Is this a good idea, is there any problems with this? By the way I am using a center point scope 4-16x40 1/4" turrets with mil ret.
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Rifle Scopes article in sniper mag
- Thread starter 223man
- Start date
Re: article in sniper mag
A reticule is a ladies handbag.
Using the mil-dots for holdovers is not a new concept.
A reticule is a ladies handbag.
Using the mil-dots for holdovers is not a new concept.
Re: article in sniper mag
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A reticule is a ladies handbag.
Using the mil-dots for holdovers is not a new concept.
</div></div>
I under stand its not a new concept. But what the deal is, is to zero your scope at the top most mil and then you will have all mils going down for your hold overs so you dont have to dial at all. Oh and sorry "reticle" for the grammer nazis.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A reticule is a ladies handbag.
Using the mil-dots for holdovers is not a new concept.
</div></div>
I under stand its not a new concept. But what the deal is, is to zero your scope at the top most mil and then you will have all mils going down for your hold overs so you dont have to dial at all. Oh and sorry "reticle" for the grammer nazis.
Re: article in sniper mag
If you zero at your topmost mil at 100 yards, you'll be 5 mils low at 100 yards (on most reticles), you need to zero at the bottom dot, but I understand what you meant.
Sounds like a waste of time.
Why not zero at 100 yards and use your mildots for holdovers?
On many of the enhanced mil-dot scopes that will give you 10 or more mils for holdovers, enough to get you to 900 plus yards with a .308.
If you zero at your topmost mil at 100 yards, you'll be 5 mils low at 100 yards (on most reticles), you need to zero at the bottom dot, but I understand what you meant.
Sounds like a waste of time.
Why not zero at 100 yards and use your mildots for holdovers?
On many of the enhanced mil-dot scopes that will give you 10 or more mils for holdovers, enough to get you to 900 plus yards with a .308.
Re: article in sniper mag
Ok, I'm not understanding why I would zero at the bottom mil. When I say at the top, I mean when I look threw the scope there is the intersection of the reticle, I am looking at the last dot above it at the top. So all I have to do is hold over how ever many mils for my firing solution.
Ok, I'm not understanding why I would zero at the bottom mil. When I say at the top, I mean when I look threw the scope there is the intersection of the reticle, I am looking at the last dot above it at the top. So all I have to do is hold over how ever many mils for my firing solution.
Re: article in sniper mag
You can do that, i.e., zero at the top of the vertical part of the reticle - that's similar to the way a Horus reticle is used. Just don't get confused, and start using the center crosshairs as your zero. However, you'll be zeroed at the edge of the glass, and some scopes may lose resolution at the edges.
You can do that, i.e., zero at the top of the vertical part of the reticle - that's similar to the way a Horus reticle is used. Just don't get confused, and start using the center crosshairs as your zero. However, you'll be zeroed at the edge of the glass, and some scopes may lose resolution at the edges.
Re: article in sniper mag
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can do that, i.e., zero at the top of the vertical part of the reticle - that's similar to the way a Horus reticle is used. Just don't get confused, and start using the center crosshairs as your zero. </div></div>
Lol, I did think of that too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can do that, i.e., zero at the top of the vertical part of the reticle - that's similar to the way a Horus reticle is used. Just don't get confused, and start using the center crosshairs as your zero. </div></div>
Lol, I did think of that too.
Re: article in sniper mag
from what i understood from reading the article, you zero at the top of the vertical line where the thin section transitions to the thick section. then you note the dope for different distances along the verticle line and record it on a diagram in your scope cover.
it is meant to eliminate having to dial for distance to save time and/or elimnate issues if your scope does not track well.
i want to try this on mine but havent gotten around to it.
from what i understood from reading the article, you zero at the top of the vertical line where the thin section transitions to the thick section. then you note the dope for different distances along the verticle line and record it on a diagram in your scope cover.
it is meant to eliminate having to dial for distance to save time and/or elimnate issues if your scope does not track well.
i want to try this on mine but havent gotten around to it.
Re: article in sniper mag
223man
You are right in that if you dial 5 mils of elevation then you will have 10 mils of holdover in your reticle to play with 100 yard zero would be 5 mils above the crosshair). Would I recommend it? Nope not usually, but it is an option for those trying to reach out and touch something beyond the range they can dial on the knob. You can also dial your scope back to half power (second focal plane only) and dial 10 mils of elevation and have 20 mils of holdover. Not much utility to it, but fun to play with on occasion.
223man
You are right in that if you dial 5 mils of elevation then you will have 10 mils of holdover in your reticle to play with 100 yard zero would be 5 mils above the crosshair). Would I recommend it? Nope not usually, but it is an option for those trying to reach out and touch something beyond the range they can dial on the knob. You can also dial your scope back to half power (second focal plane only) and dial 10 mils of elevation and have 20 mils of holdover. Not much utility to it, but fun to play with on occasion.
Re: article in sniper mag
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KeithR41</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ummmm, huh?
Dude, you can't reinvent the wheel.
41 </div></div>
who said anything about reinventing the wheel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KeithR41</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ummmm, huh?
Dude, you can't reinvent the wheel.
41 </div></div>
who said anything about reinventing the wheel?
Re: article in sniper mag
I made a post about the same article.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2488681#Post2488681
I made a post about the same article.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2488681#Post2488681
Re: article in sniper mag
Okay, I think i get what you're saying now and I believe that I am thinking backasswards, which is not unusual.
However, I still think it is a waste of time.
For example, my IOR has 15 mils of half and full mil marks for holdovers. If I have my dope and it tells me my comeups are 8 mils, I can either dial it or holdover with a 100 yard zero.
Okay, I think i get what you're saying now and I believe that I am thinking backasswards, which is not unusual.
However, I still think it is a waste of time.
For example, my IOR has 15 mils of half and full mil marks for holdovers. If I have my dope and it tells me my comeups are 8 mils, I can either dial it or holdover with a 100 yard zero.
Re: article in sniper mag
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, I think i get what you're saying now and I believe that I am thinking backasswards, which is not unusual.
However, I still think it is a waste of time.
For example, my IOR has 15 mils of half and full mil marks for holdovers. If I have my dope and it tells me my comeups are 8 mils, I can either dial it or holdover with a 100 yard zero. </div></div>
And indeed it may be a waist of time but that is what I am trying to figure out. Is it one of those things that just looks good on paper, or is it something to consider? And so far I think that it is just something that looks good on paper. But I am no expert either.
Thanks,
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, I think i get what you're saying now and I believe that I am thinking backasswards, which is not unusual.
However, I still think it is a waste of time.
For example, my IOR has 15 mils of half and full mil marks for holdovers. If I have my dope and it tells me my comeups are 8 mils, I can either dial it or holdover with a 100 yard zero. </div></div>
And indeed it may be a waist of time but that is what I am trying to figure out. Is it one of those things that just looks good on paper, or is it something to consider? And so far I think that it is just something that looks good on paper. But I am no expert either.
Thanks,
John
Re: article in sniper mag
Zero using the center, dial up 5 mils, then use the top mil dot/line as your new 100 yard hold point.
Wala - same thing accomplished.
Maybe I should write an article about it for something cool like SOF or Vanity Fair.
Zero using the center, dial up 5 mils, then use the top mil dot/line as your new 100 yard hold point.
Wala - same thing accomplished.
Maybe I should write an article about it for something cool like SOF or Vanity Fair.
Re: article in sniper mag
Playboy would be more fun to read... at least when I am rolling my eyes, I can look at the pictures.
Leo is right though, you can simply dial for the range you feel needs to be engaged and hold anything that come up unexpectedly. With a 308 and a standard, no frills mil dot reticle a shooter can engage targets from 100 to 600 yards using the space between the center of the reticle and heavy post.
We shoot a drill called moving chaos, which uses a mover, and stationary targets engaged for 200 yards to 550 yards, since the mover is 400 yards away you dial the mover hold the horizontal then you engage the stationary with a combination of vertical and horizontal holds, the targets on that range are 5X10 in size out to 550. Hitting them with a reticle hold in both planes is easily done.
When you work for a company that sells reticles, you tend to advocate holding over anything else..., articles in magazines are simply a sales tool in some cases.
It is incumbent on the proficient tactical shooter to be adept at more than one method of target engagement.
Playboy would be more fun to read... at least when I am rolling my eyes, I can look at the pictures.
Leo is right though, you can simply dial for the range you feel needs to be engaged and hold anything that come up unexpectedly. With a 308 and a standard, no frills mil dot reticle a shooter can engage targets from 100 to 600 yards using the space between the center of the reticle and heavy post.
We shoot a drill called moving chaos, which uses a mover, and stationary targets engaged for 200 yards to 550 yards, since the mover is 400 yards away you dial the mover hold the horizontal then you engage the stationary with a combination of vertical and horizontal holds, the targets on that range are 5X10 in size out to 550. Hitting them with a reticle hold in both planes is easily done.
When you work for a company that sells reticles, you tend to advocate holding over anything else..., articles in magazines are simply a sales tool in some cases.
It is incumbent on the proficient tactical shooter to be adept at more than one method of target engagement.
Re: article in sniper mag
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/?p=5
"Hybrid Knob & Reticle" method, written c.a. 2005-2006. Wasn't new then, isn't new now.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/?p=5
"Hybrid Knob & Reticle" method, written c.a. 2005-2006. Wasn't new then, isn't new now.
Re: article in sniper mag
Todd also says some where in that magazine that thanks to ballistic computers the bullet doesn't get a say, that once the computer gives you a solution the bullet listens... Horus also sells a computer program.
However, because of so many factors that are not mentioned, the bullet in fact gets the last word...
the shooter should always believe the bullet, it will tell you what it needs during the current conditions. In fact it has the final say. Computers are just a starting point, a predictor of a possible, maybe even hopeful outcome, but like the acronym says, DOPE is simply Data on Previous Engagement, things change that effect it's flight, both internal, and external, to include the shooter and their influence on said DOPE.
Todd also says some where in that magazine that thanks to ballistic computers the bullet doesn't get a say, that once the computer gives you a solution the bullet listens... Horus also sells a computer program.
However, because of so many factors that are not mentioned, the bullet in fact gets the last word...
the shooter should always believe the bullet, it will tell you what it needs during the current conditions. In fact it has the final say. Computers are just a starting point, a predictor of a possible, maybe even hopeful outcome, but like the acronym says, DOPE is simply Data on Previous Engagement, things change that effect it's flight, both internal, and external, to include the shooter and their influence on said DOPE.
Re: article in sniper mag
Dialing for one range and noting the holdovers/unders for other targets is something worthy of its own article?
Hell, I think its worthy of its own stage at matches, and kind of figured it was a no-brainer on how its executed......
I also caught the drift that real field dope wasn't necessary anymore, and wondered why I never got the memo.
Dialing for one range and noting the holdovers/unders for other targets is something worthy of its own article?
Hell, I think its worthy of its own stage at matches, and kind of figured it was a no-brainer on how its executed......
I also caught the drift that real field dope wasn't necessary anymore, and wondered why I never got the memo.
Re: article in sniper mag
Those inclined to put unlimited faith in a ballistic program might want to read Sources of Ballistic Program Inaccuracies.
Those inclined to put unlimited faith in a ballistic program might want to read Sources of Ballistic Program Inaccuracies.
Re: article in sniper mag
Horus Atragg program works like a charm. Once you have a gun built and trued and the correct atmospherics, just plug in the data and it spits it out to where it the bullet should hit. Me and a buddy were making 1st round hits on various targets out to 1000m using .300WM. The data in the PDA does not lie.
Horus Atragg program works like a charm. Once you have a gun built and trued and the correct atmospherics, just plug in the data and it spits it out to where it the bullet should hit. Me and a buddy were making 1st round hits on various targets out to 1000m using .300WM. The data in the PDA does not lie.
Re: article in sniper mag
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gits</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...just plug in the data and it spits it out to where it the bullet should hit...</div></div>Exactly: It never lies as to where the bullet should have hit.
It sounds as if, in your experience, the batteries worked flawlessly that day.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gits</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...just plug in the data and it spits it out to where it the bullet should hit...</div></div>Exactly: It never lies as to where the bullet should have hit.
It sounds as if, in your experience, the batteries worked flawlessly that day.
Re: article in sniper mag
I'm still looking for an explanation why the Horus program uses (for lack of a better term) yardage barriers to determine the BC change over points VS velocity barriers like Sierra or the other ballistic programs do.
I'm also hoping to get a chance to test it on paper to see how well it actually tracks. Being able to hit an 20" wide by 40" tall Iron Maiden at 800M isn't really that impressive. The vertical could be off by quite a bit and you'd still get a hit.
I'm still looking for an explanation why the Horus program uses (for lack of a better term) yardage barriers to determine the BC change over points VS velocity barriers like Sierra or the other ballistic programs do.
I'm also hoping to get a chance to test it on paper to see how well it actually tracks. Being able to hit an 20" wide by 40" tall Iron Maiden at 800M isn't really that impressive. The vertical could be off by quite a bit and you'd still get a hit.
Re: article in sniper mag
Dodgefan,
How familiar are you with the aTrag software from Horus? I will tell you the software is spot on. You are right, hitting a 20" X 40" iron maden at 800m isnt that impressive.
BUT, Do it time and time again, including on your cold bore shots, oh, and lets take it further, lets make that 800m shot on a 12" X 12" plate, first round hits, and consistently hitting that plate center mass. Now that is impressive. That is what the aTrag software along with the Horus Reticle will do for you.
The aTrag software from Horus allows you to select different measurements. Yard and meters. You have True Minutes of angle, or even your mil dot holds. These are for the different types of reticles that you utilize. For instance, if you use a Horus reticle, you'll want to use your settings on mil holds. If you are using a Leupold M3 L/R, you want to use the TMOA (True minutes of angle) setting.
Yardage comes into play for a couple different reasons.
1 Minute of angle is 1" at 100 yards. 1 yard = .91 meters. In essence 1 MOA = 1.14" at 100m.
Knowing that information helps determine how many moa or how many mils you will hold.
Additionally you have to know what measurements are being used. A lot of civilian ranges are marked out using yardage, military uses meters.
If you would like to know more, feel free to pm me
Dodgefan,
How familiar are you with the aTrag software from Horus? I will tell you the software is spot on. You are right, hitting a 20" X 40" iron maden at 800m isnt that impressive.
BUT, Do it time and time again, including on your cold bore shots, oh, and lets take it further, lets make that 800m shot on a 12" X 12" plate, first round hits, and consistently hitting that plate center mass. Now that is impressive. That is what the aTrag software along with the Horus Reticle will do for you.
The aTrag software from Horus allows you to select different measurements. Yard and meters. You have True Minutes of angle, or even your mil dot holds. These are for the different types of reticles that you utilize. For instance, if you use a Horus reticle, you'll want to use your settings on mil holds. If you are using a Leupold M3 L/R, you want to use the TMOA (True minutes of angle) setting.
Yardage comes into play for a couple different reasons.
1 Minute of angle is 1" at 100 yards. 1 yard = .91 meters. In essence 1 MOA = 1.14" at 100m.
Knowing that information helps determine how many moa or how many mils you will hold.
Additionally you have to know what measurements are being used. A lot of civilian ranges are marked out using yardage, military uses meters.
If you would like to know more, feel free to pm me
Re: article in sniper mag
I'm very familiar with the Horus software the "trueing process" and "BC extrapolation." I have seen a bunch of guys true up on a 12" steel plate and then shoot over or under a smaller plate at a closer distance (half the trueing distance plus 10 percent.)What I want to do is test it on paper to validate the data it puts out and also I'd like to take a rifle that I've trued up and done BC extrapolation for at my location and then try it at sea level without re-trueing. Until it passes those tests by either myself or some other disinterested person I'll pass on it.
Right now most of the scopes in the Army system are setup with MOA knobs and a Mil reticle and you can only get data output in one UOM, if it was capable of giving elevation in MOA and windage in Mils it would be better IMO. When everybody in the Army gets Mil/Mil scopes then it won't be an issue, but for now I don't think it is the best software out there. For combat shooting it's an alright program I just happen to prefer other software for personal use. Well done DA cards are faster and just as accurate anyhow. I've seen that time and time again.
I'm very familiar with the Horus software the "trueing process" and "BC extrapolation." I have seen a bunch of guys true up on a 12" steel plate and then shoot over or under a smaller plate at a closer distance (half the trueing distance plus 10 percent.)What I want to do is test it on paper to validate the data it puts out and also I'd like to take a rifle that I've trued up and done BC extrapolation for at my location and then try it at sea level without re-trueing. Until it passes those tests by either myself or some other disinterested person I'll pass on it.
Right now most of the scopes in the Army system are setup with MOA knobs and a Mil reticle and you can only get data output in one UOM, if it was capable of giving elevation in MOA and windage in Mils it would be better IMO. When everybody in the Army gets Mil/Mil scopes then it won't be an issue, but for now I don't think it is the best software out there. For combat shooting it's an alright program I just happen to prefer other software for personal use. Well done DA cards are faster and just as accurate anyhow. I've seen that time and time again.
Re: article in sniper mag
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cskyler22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yardage comes into play for a couple different reasons.
1 Minute of angle is 1" at 100 yards. 1 yard = .91 meters. In essence 1 MOA = 1.14" at 100m.
Knowing that information helps determine how many moa or how many mils you will hold.
Additionally you have to know what measurements are being used. A lot of civilian ranges are marked out using yardage, military uses meters.
If you would like to know more, feel free to pm me </div></div>
Actually, one minute of angle does not equal 1 inch at 100 yards.
Additionally, your software will determine what angular offset is required at a certain distance, you don't need to know how many inches equals what MOA at a given distance.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cskyler22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yardage comes into play for a couple different reasons.
1 Minute of angle is 1" at 100 yards. 1 yard = .91 meters. In essence 1 MOA = 1.14" at 100m.
Knowing that information helps determine how many moa or how many mils you will hold.
Additionally you have to know what measurements are being used. A lot of civilian ranges are marked out using yardage, military uses meters.
If you would like to know more, feel free to pm me </div></div>
Actually, one minute of angle does not equal 1 inch at 100 yards.
Additionally, your software will determine what angular offset is required at a certain distance, you don't need to know how many inches equals what MOA at a given distance.
Re: article in sniper mag
Oh, and your math is backwards...if 1" did equal one MOA at 100 yards and a meter is shorter than a yard, an angular measurment would be less at the shorter distance.
Oh, and your math is backwards...if 1" did equal one MOA at 100 yards and a meter is shorter than a yard, an angular measurment would be less at the shorter distance.
Re: article in sniper mag
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cskyler22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot of civilian ranges are marked out using yardage, military uses meters.
</div></div>
Oh, and every Marine Corps range I can remember firing on was in yards.
Strike three............
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cskyler22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot of civilian ranges are marked out using yardage, military uses meters.
</div></div>
Oh, and every Marine Corps range I can remember firing on was in yards.
Strike three............
Re: article in sniper mag
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 10Xview</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cskyler22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot of civilian ranges are marked out using yardage, military uses meters.
</div></div>
Oh, and every Marine Corps range I can remember firing on was in yards.
Strike three............</div></div>
Unless its a reference to Europe
But here in the good ol US of A its still yards.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 10Xview</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cskyler22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot of civilian ranges are marked out using yardage, military uses meters.
</div></div>
Oh, and every Marine Corps range I can remember firing on was in yards.
Strike three............</div></div>
Unless its a reference to Europe
Re: article in sniper mag
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Playboy would be more fun to read... at least when I am rolling my eyes, I can look at the pictures.
Leo is right though, you can simply dial for the range you feel needs to be engaged and hold anything that come up unexpectedly. With a 308 and a standard, no frills mil dot reticle a shooter can engage targets from 100 to 600 yards using the space between the center of the reticle and heavy post.
We shoot a drill called moving chaos, which uses a mover, and stationary targets engaged for 200 yards to 550 yards, since the mover is 400 yards away you dial the mover hold the horizontal then you engage the stationary with a combination of vertical and horizontal holds, the targets on that range are 5X10 in size out to 550. Hitting them with a reticle hold in both planes is easily done.
When you work for a company that sells reticles, you tend to advocate holding over anything else..., <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">articles in magazines are simply a sales tool in some cases. </span></span> It is incumbent on the proficient tactical shooter to be adept at more than one method of target engagement. </div></div>
Im beliveing that more and more,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Playboy would be more fun to read... at least when I am rolling my eyes, I can look at the pictures.
Leo is right though, you can simply dial for the range you feel needs to be engaged and hold anything that come up unexpectedly. With a 308 and a standard, no frills mil dot reticle a shooter can engage targets from 100 to 600 yards using the space between the center of the reticle and heavy post.
We shoot a drill called moving chaos, which uses a mover, and stationary targets engaged for 200 yards to 550 yards, since the mover is 400 yards away you dial the mover hold the horizontal then you engage the stationary with a combination of vertical and horizontal holds, the targets on that range are 5X10 in size out to 550. Hitting them with a reticle hold in both planes is easily done.
When you work for a company that sells reticles, you tend to advocate holding over anything else..., <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">articles in magazines are simply a sales tool in some cases. </span></span> It is incumbent on the proficient tactical shooter to be adept at more than one method of target engagement. </div></div>
Im beliveing that more and more,
Re: article in sniper mag
What are you going to do when you find out that not all scopes dial exactly what the knobs say they do? What do you do then?
What are you going to do when you find out that not all scopes dial exactly what the knobs say they do? What do you do then?
