As 2014 Approaches does this need to be addressed ?

[Lowlight]

So, I have been thinking, really there needs to be a better solution to the series, while many enjoy the series, just as many do not. The question becomes is the series concept doing enough to promote and propel the precision rifle sport ? What in fact are they doing aside from supporting the small handful who do participate in the majority of their events ? Is bringing in club shooters enough, or just a half hearted measure ?

The Series concept started on here, in my opinion it has been slow to adjust, and even worse at listening. That is not a direct attack on any one individual, but a general observation. Yes I have paid attention, yes I did let them use the 2013 SHC Scores. But beyond those scores what did it offer, better yet what was it about once those scores were tallied ? In my opinion, as a Match Director, once they were given the OK to say the scores from the SHC were available, they disappeared. I even offered a host of features (perks) on SH for them, and nothing. They made no effort to take advantage of the reach of this site. Especially considering the idea was born here. In some ways I understand, several don't like me, they feel this site is too big, and maybe there was a bit of animosity when I left working in TX. It fractured the community when they broke off, and created a site that mirrored this one in an attempt to capture what we have built here. Unsuccessfully.

When this happened several people have asked me to work towards something similar. They wanted the holes filled, to move away from the clique system and to open it up for as many people as possible in a fair and balanced way. I did work on this, and then put it on a shelf when I was given assurances the series was moving forward. Well I have not seen that forward motion and now the series wants to directly compete for not only sponsors, but shooters and slots when we put on our match in 2014. If that is the cases, I have taken my idea back off the shelf and want to put this up for consideration. Sure it's a different class of people, very few of their members shot the SHC last year. So the fact the SHC shot 125 people really limits the impact they might have. But I do have this plan and I do want to see if the members think it is viable.

The reach of SH is pretty wide. Placing the League here would broaden it's base and give it the exposure it deserves. Rules, Ranking, Sponsors, Match Promotion, much of that already exists, the idea would be to centralize it. Put it under specific forum sections with the purpose of uniting and promoting. But more than that, it's about education. There are a lot of guys that want to use land they have for a match. So why not give them a resource for this. A place they can turn to draw on the talent found here. Develop more matches in a variety of locations and then assist in the match set up so it's a successful event. That is big part it.

Next would be a classification system so new shooters are not standing on the outside looking in. A simple system but I think an effective one. In our sport, speed is what changes the balance of power. So why not classify the divisions by speed. Adding in a Team Division and Mil Spec one. From their the ranking of the individual is fair and balanced.

Do I pull the trigger on this, well it's up to members to decide, are they willing to support the concept or do they think it's too redundant and not worth the effort. As noted this will be free to join, materials will be supplied for ranking and classification and the system will be put in place to help match directors if they so wish. Most already promote their matches here, we are not looking to go even further in helping not only fill slots, to assist with sponsors, range officers, targeting, and lastly courses of fire if requested.

My thought, the Tactical Rifleman's League,

Certainly not new, but hopefully better positioned to help new shooters, new match directors, as well as rank and classified the established. I am looking for feedback, I am not married to any one concept here, and want to help promote and engage the precision rifle sport. The door is open, it's not a situation where I own anything written, it's about the shooters among us.

Tactical Rifleman’s League
Objectives

Competition
Rank Individuals through an objective, balanced scoring process
Assist Match Directors in promoting their competition
Assist Match Director when requested in establishing the best competitive experience possible. This includes help with courses of fire, range assistance, materials etc. The Best matches have the best courses of fire regardless of the resources available locally. Let the TRL help you.
Assist in establishing Guidelines to the precision rifle community.
Give the sport a classification system that helps balance the participation.

Training
Provide a List of Training Courses available to the shooter
Include any classes attended in overall rankings
Assist in setting up training programs

Promote the Tactical Precision Rifle Shooter to the community by establishing a one stop resource.
The TRL will be free to join, you will have a simple ranking form and all it will require is that you sign in with the TRL Forum. The TRL forum section will be open to sponsors, facilities, and the individual shooter to use. There will be a ranking posts, match announcements, updates, etc. Individual shooter just need to include their ranking form, the match director does not incur any additional work.
We will create another Sniper’s Hide Match as an earned Event so you can qualify and test your skills against the best shooters out there. We will also be expanding into new areas around the country. The matches will not be in any one location.

Scoring will be based around your ranking at the end of the competition, the distance shot, and the firearms used. As well credit will be given for those who attend training and you can use draw from both local and national matches to establish your ranking.


Ranking
Competition will be based off placement, there is a bonus for winning, firearms used, distance shot. This scale provides a sliding curve as not all events are created equal.
Placement - number of competitors will determine your placement score. Take you final placement in the match and reverse it based on the number of shooters. If you shot a match with 50 shooters. A 1st would be 50pts plus a bonus. 2nd would be 49pts, 3rd would be 48pts, coming in 32nd out of 50: 19 points, etc.
Bonus there is a 5pt bonus for winning a match.
Range Score - maximum distance shot divided by 100. Shooting a match to 1000 yards would be 10 points. Shooting a match with a max distance of 425 yards would be 4.25 points.
Firearm Scores - in order to be score the weapon used must be shot in at least 2 stages.
Handgun 2 points
Shotgun 2 points
Carbine 3 points
Precision Rifle 5 points
Training Score - For every 4 hours of training a shooter attends they will receive 2 points to their score. A One & a Half Day of training would be worth 6 points.

Example:
A competition at a facility with a maximum distance of 800 yards where the shooter attends a 1 day train up would be 12 points
Coming in 7th out of 50 shooters would be 44 points
Shooting a precision rifle plus a minimum of 2 pistol stages would be 7 points

Total for the weekend of shooting: 63 points out of a maximum of 74 points.


Classification
Open Division - Any rifle that shoots any caliber in excess of 2850fps +/- 24fps
Limited Division - Any rifle that shoots any caliber below 2800fps +/- 24fps
Team Division - Held by members of an organized team. These members may also compete as an individual in either division. Two people make up a team affiliated by sponsorships make up a team.
Mil-Spec Division - Any currently active member of the Military or Law Enforcement who uses a duty rifle or one assigned to them for their work.
A precision rifles unlike other rifles are assisted by the speed of the bullet to help elevate it to the next step. This is why are divisions are not based on caliber, but based on muzzle velocity. This is an easy measure to test on the range and during a competition.

UPDATED

Updated !

Tactical Rifleman's League

Objective:

Competitions

To rank individuals through an objective scoring system
To assist match directors in promoting their competitions by use of the forum and other outlets available
At assist match directors when requested in hosting & setting up matches in their local area. Assistance can come in a variety of ways from COF help, to standards, guidelines, ranking.
Assist in establishing guidelines for the precision rifle community for matches, ranking, and scoring.
To give the sport a classification & ranking system that is balanced, and including both matches and individuals

To Promote the Tactical Rifle Shooter to the community

The TRL will be free to join, there will not be any fees. We will include forum sections for Individual Shooters, Match Directors, Facilities and Sponsors

Classifications

Open Division
Limited Division
Mil Spec Division
Gas Gun Division

The open and limited division will be based on the Ballistic Coeffiecent and Velocity Factor power system.

Velocity X BC = BCVF

2900 X .61 = 1769

BCs will be held to 2 places as in .58, .47. etc.

The Limited Division will be BCVFs under 1575 with the Open Division over BCVFs over 1580.

Ranking will be done at the TRL level and not be require by the individual match director to manage. It will only be at the National Level will classes and ranking come into place, as well as part of the recognition and rating factor for the TRL.

The Gas Gun division will be determined by the member shooting a gas operated rifle at the Regional & National level.
The Mil Spec division will be for active duty military & law enforcement

This system is in place to leave the fields as open as possible while not expecting those shooting ballistically inferrer calibers to be held to a direct comparison with ballistically superior cartridges found in many of today's matches.

Guidelines

Guidelines will be created and assembled to assist members and match directors to choose from best practices found at other competitions and give them an opportunity to put them in place. By sharing information and resources we hope to increase the competitions around the country and overseas as well as standardize these best practice in an on going fashion. These guidelines will not be rules, but options a match director can choose from.

Match Design Support

The TRL will also help through the network and our resources any match director wishing to take advantage of the resources available. SH will make available it's "Match in a Box" package that will include 2 targets to choose from and some suggested uses for each of those targets. Ultimate it is up the individual Match Director to create their own match with its own unique course of fire. However we recognize the best matches in the country are not necessarily the biggest, but those with the most diverse & challenging course of fire. Using the combined experiences found through the TRL we hope that all matches will rise to national recognition for their excellence.

The layout of the TRL will be based on:

1. The Individual Shooter
2. Local Level Matches and Match Directors
3. Regional Matches & a Regional TRL Director
4 National Matches

The TRL Board will consist of Match Directors, Clubs & Facilities to help make changes and adjust the administration of the TRL Objectives. We understand this will be a work in progress.

The goal at the TRL level is rank individuals and matches according a system that balances the unique composition of the Tactical Rifle Sport. One such system is:

Distance = .5pt per 50yards, per target. Add up the yardage on multiple target stages to get the distance value. Do not do this if all the targets are all on the same line. We will count that like shooting at one target multiple times to keep things simple.
Short movement or transition = 1pt
Run & Gun (more than 25yards) = 2pts
Number of Targets engaged during a stage = 1pt per target
Competitor shooting in the prone only = 1pt
Shooting in the Sitting, Kneeling, Standing, Unsupported Prone, or Weak Side = 2pts
Use of prop or barricade (per prop) = 2pts
Lesss than 10 seconds par time per round in COF description = 2pt
Greater than 10 seconds par time per round in COF description = 1pt
Magazine change require = 1pts
Stage has UKD Targets : 2pts
Moving Target: 2pts
Average target size for stage equaling 1MOA or smaller = 3pts
Average target size for stage equaling 1MOA – 2MOA = 2pt
Average Target size for stage equaling bigger than 2MOA = 1


After you calculate the score for all your COFs, add those up and combine with the two values below to get a total event score.
Number of shooters for the entire match: 1pts per shooter
Total Estimated Round Count = 1pts per round


Example: The COF below would have a score of 19pts total.

 

[gugubica]

I am not against the concept, I think it has merit. I would just advise against competing with the PRS. Working together could benifit both groups.

I think the biggest problem with growing the sport from a PRS standpoint is that new shooters are still very intimidated to throw their hat in the ring, espesially now that it has become a quasi professional series.

Perhaps your system could be geared more toward novice shooters...one day matches, lots of matches around the country so travel is not an issue...etc. then work up to a confidence level that one would join the pRS and start shooting the big matches?

I own a facility and hold matches, I would definitely be willing to see where this goes.

 

[Idaho338Norma]

I like it and would be happy to join. Quite a bit of land to have a match here in southern Idaho. Would be nice to have matches within a few hours driving and not across the country.

 

[Lowlight]

@gugubica

The PRS has no interest in working with anyone, (beyond their buddies) we have been here 2 years, and once Myself & Others questioned their original motives we were off limits.

All they want is the scores, not much else as they feel they have it well under control. There have been more than one conversation and all were less than productive. If you offer anything they believe you are attacking them directly.

PS... the Sniper's Hide Cup IS the biggest match in the country, to think we can't add more, well, of course we can. No other tactical match of its kinds has hosted as many shooters or has had as big a prize table.

 

[gugubica]

This is not directed at just you Frank, but I would also like to make sure that any animosity is put aside. If we are going to truly grow this sport, everyone involved needs to work without any emotional pull and make solid choices based on outcome, not who fucked up and who did what in the past because so and so was pissed at this or that or them.

I honestly don't give a shit about any of that crap...I just want to see what's best for the future.

Thanks for all you do and all you have done, that goes to a lot of people have moved the sport forward.

 

[gugubica]

And, nobody is above improvement!

Fracturing a very small group of people will only hurt us.

 

[Lowlight]

We (me and a few others ) who have been around for 10 years+ have tried. There is very little to no interest in it, as the "improvements" were looked at as attacks.

Conversations, with an (s) have gone no where. The only reason this was not brought out this year was George & Shannon K reach out to me directly, but the decision makers have other plans.

I look at this as starting from the ground floor to make sure the issues observed are addressed and more people have a seat at the table. It was not this site that split the community in pieces, I never forced anyone out, they made their own decisions and those decisions were based off my simple dissent with their opinion. Many of which have born out as true. Maybe not all, but most.

The question is, does this fit the model a bit better. Competing with the PRS in my opinion is not a problem. They are happy to compete with me if I am not willing to play their game. So question becomes can we use the power of this site, the 4.5TBs of traffic a month to launch something in 2014 that promotes the sport, brings in not only new shooters, but new matches, and gives people a better balance on both ranking and classification. Why compete with the so called "pros" because they have new rifles from Surgeon. Divide it up and compete alongside them, and not be intimidated or move to the back of the room because you don't shoot on Team "XX" .

It's not so much us against them, that has been established since the beginning. Out of respect for George, Wade, Shannon, etc, we have just stayed out of their way. This was written over a year ago. They have announced to me the interest in competing directly with SH and the SHC. So rather than move to their song, we'll write our own.

 

[Mod Adahy]

I think the draw from the "hide" is the selling point. Huge data base, history and largest match of this type in history(the last SHC). Not familiar with any conflicts with PRS series so I can not weigh on that but the groups essentially are always the same, at least by posted scores. The key is gonna be to get the new shooters, this is gonna be the tough part and is probably best done with some sort of media. It could also inprove attendance by not having a small set number of shooters, most seem to be limited to 75 or less. Not many new shooters are going to attempt to get a slot while being a new shooter. I did like that the SHC was essentially unlimited and that may be the future.

No matter how it goes down, I would love to see the sport expand and not get boiled with politics (like local F class matches here).

 

[Lowlight]

As I said the Door is Open:

If you have a suggestion, if you have seen something that you believe is staring the community in the face that can be incorporated post it, email it, private message.

There are a lot of people out there that agree and don't want to be seen as being on one or the other, that is no problem. I am looking to move beyond, and by that I mean addressing these concerns and putting the best ideas into practice.

 

[GlockBlock]

I agree, there needs to be something for LR competiton that occurs with some regularity like an IDPA or USPSA or similar series where there are local matches often. Ranges near me typically have IDPA match one Saturday, USPSA the next, , practical rifle match that same Sunday, Steel Challenge the next Saturday, etc.

It would be pretty cool to get a weekend with a LR Rifle match included.

 

[Lowlight]

I am gonna finally print up the targets I designed and create a "match in a box" that will be available to guys who want to run local PR matches on their square Hi Power Range. Really they can do it any way they like, but we'll have something available for them to get. It will come with suggested courses of fire, but your only limitation will be the match directors imagination.

I want to help promote, not just high five the handful guys who are consistently in the Top 10 of the matches they attend.

The Match in a box will be a self contained solution, you can use the Training target for ranges with 300 yards or less, and the Hi Power Hybrid for ranges of 400 yards and more.

 

[*Nine]

I like the idea. I looked briefly at the PRS, but there's really no reason to sign up here in WA unless I planned to travel to a bunch of matches where the PRS is big, and even then it seemed more like a benefit only to the very best shooters with most of the cash coming from guys who may well be competitive in matches in their area but have a hard time against what are essentially a group of sponsored, professional shooters. If you could come up with a way to get more matches in more areas, and find a way to engage "regular guys" I think you'd see a lot of interest. (And by "regular guys" I'm not necessarily talking about someone who has never shot a match and shows up with a top-fed Savage .308 and a $200 scope, but I mean guys who you see at matches all the time who are great shooters and have quality gear but who just don't have the time/money to fly to big matches all over the country every year.)

One thing I thought though as I read the initial post was that awarding points for attending train-up events kind of seems like paying for points. Now don't get me wrong, there's definitely value in training and I don't at all have anything against such events, but if the point here is to reward shooters based on skill then I'd argue that awarding them points for showing up and paying for something really doesn't accomplish that. The time/money they invest in training should benefit them by earning them a higher placement in the match itself.

 

[Lowlight]

That point is well taken.

Part of the problem I wanted to address was, facilities make a lot of money back that they lose for putting on a match. The PRS has some rules against it, (they may have eased though, I don;t know) but basically telling guys not to attend train ups. But it really helps the Match Director.

So maybe it is not awarding full points for that, but figuring something else. Maybe award a 1/2 point or 1/4 point per 4 hours, as it will help promote attendance and recoup costs.

If it turns people off, then we definitely want to work on that part of it.

 

[WeaselWalker]

I'd have to agree with Nine! about the paying for points. Probably wouldn't be a problem at the beginning, but if you want to build for the future than scaling that back from the get go would be a good idea. LL, am I correct in understanding your "match in a box" idea as being similar to a franchise model? Obviously this is a good model for the business world, and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work here for getting things growing at a much faster rate.

 

[Graham]

As 2014 Approaches does this need to be addressed ?

I saw it happen with IPSC vs USPSA in the early 1980s: I was at the world meeting in 1983 when the Canadians, South Africans and other countries outvoted the US, which split the sport.

To do it right you will need a statement of principles, a rule book, and a governing board or body. Careful what you wish for, though: The politics involved in doing this can easily sap the energy that could otherwise be put into quality shooting competitions - and for years to come.

That said, I never joined the PRS. I'm not even sure that the PRS is working as intended, but I will leave that determination to be made by people more involved in the politics and more knowledgeable on that subject than I am.

 

[Lowlight]

No the match in a box is just a target package with a suggested course of fire. It's designed for square "hi power" ranges where guys can't put steel out.

It's a target, how you use the target is up to you, but its designed to help get people up and running. So you can run a local match without having to start from scratch.

Changing the points for training or removing them is no problem. That is why I am asking. So people can point out the holes and we can address them.

 

[Lowlight]

It's not like the politics now aren't causing a problem... how much worse can it get ?

The rules and guidelines are part of what we are doing now, hashing it out in public so we can balance it.

I believe starting it off simple, old school Nascar like and addressing problems as they are identified is a good method. First we discuss, in the open, pros-cons, refine.

Then, we can put ink to paper

 

[triceratops3]

This isn't a bad idea. I like it. I do several local matches every year and really have nothing to compare to besides myself and people I shoot with. I also think that providing information for match directors (potential, new and experienced) would be a good way to create even more new local matches.

One thing that I thought to consider after reading about scoring would to change the points awarded for distance. Instead of just dividing the longest distance by 100 perhaps to even things out even more just take the average distance for the course of fire and divide that by 100. (the average distance for a COF could be 573 yards and that would be 5.73 additional points, but with the same COF the longest distance (1 target) could be 1150 yards so that would be an additional 11.5 points. a little over double that of the average).

But this is definitely a good idea to get new shooters involved with matches and point system so we're not just wishing to compete in the big leagues one day.

 

[WeaselWalker]

I like the idea of throwing ideas around between the potential participants before things are set in stone. I think the more encompassing you can make the "match in a box" idea the more successful this will be. Instead of just a target package, make it target packages, courses of fire, POC at venders, POC for additional resources, and so on. This will make it a lot easier for a new match director to hit the ground running. He will just come to SH and say that he wants to run a match, (after some review) SH could then say ok, here you go. Here's everything you need to get started. Like starting a fast food franchise. The HQ has already done most of the work, you just have to make it happen. The HQ(SH) also holds the rulebook in it's hand for all the other matches to abide by. One central governing body. You could also consider a Crossfit model, probably others as well that I'm not aware of, and train people to oversee matches to ensure that they are run to their standards.

 

[Rob01]

I joined the PRS the first year and quickly saw the emperor was wearing no clothes. Does nothing but keep track of scores, take people's money and put their noses in the MDs business. Only governing because they said they were and MDs fell inline. The sport was better before it and was growing just fine. Already fought this fight when everyone was screaming how great it was. Good luck. I'm out.

Just to clarify in case it was read wrong, my remarks were towards the PRS and not Frank's endeavor. I think he has some good ideas.

 

[BusterB]

In my personal opinion, I think the best way to grow the sport and get more shooters would be as suggested earlier in this post. If the site could be used to coordinate many smaller matches that are part of the "snipers hide series" of matches. Have these matches culminate in larger regionals, leading to a nationwide match. This concept seems to make sense to me, and would also allow more in person meeting with other shooters, which could then coordinate with travel etc for the farther matches.

And my other suggestion is keep rules and scoring as simplistic as possible. Several shooting sports have made rules and scoring so complex that many shooters don't even want to fool with them. I personally am that way with IDPA, there are so many divisions and trivial rules that new shooters are turned off by it and ran off by the rest.

 

[pyrofx]

Frank ,
My .02

The idea sounds like a good idea. In our local area we have a monthly get together. Everyone from Barny Fife to STA boys compete .
The rules are always changing from match to match and that has caused a lot of discontent. A match in this style could bring fresh shooters and fresh ideas for us . The thought of our members being able to compare their standings with other across the country would also be a very nice benefit for them . At the same time it would be a confidence builder for them , and let them see that competitions such as the Cup are things that they could do . After R.O.ing for you for 2 years now , I have met every shooter that comes through the lanes . We have a very diverse group of people . I know that any range of capability shooter is welcome , but others are timid and do not feel up to the task. This kind of local match would help all figure out that they can compete and still have fun.

The point system of distance divided sounds good , but I would agree that average range divided might be better in the long run. But that is being said without seeing what you have in mind right now. We have a match in the first part of Dec if you want to try and throw it out for a quick and dirty test .

 

[lash]

...I think the biggest problem with growing the sport from a PRS standpoint is that new shooters are still very intimidated to throw their hat in the ring, especially now that it has become a quasi professional series.

Perhaps your system could be geared more toward novice shooters...one day matches, lots of matches around the country so travel is not an issue...etc. then work up to a confidence level that one would join the pRS and start shooting the big matches?...

I agree with this. As a novice LR shooter, I probably will never be set-up, time-wise to enter the PRS series, yet I love to shoot in local and semi-local matches when time allows, without the pressure or concerns about competing against professional competitors. Not that it bothers me to compete alongside them and with them, but I'll not likely ever have the opportunity nor time to enter that level of the sport.

I think that perhaps a good hard look at how IDPA works and is set up might reveal some great clues as to how to entice novice shooters and small clubs alike into the sport. They have been very successful, and a huge part of that, in my opinion, is the easy accessibility to the sport and the way that IDPA doesn't really care if a local club holds local unsanctioned matches monthly and yet still allows those competitor's scores to be recorded against their standing.

My local club does have a LR facility and is trying to work up to holding regular matches, but I can see that something as you suggest, done properly could help them in this endeavor, while bringing them into the fold as a larger and consistently administered organization. I hesitated for months before taking the plunge here locally and even now just signed up for the qualification and training here at our club. If the same accessibility existed for LR rifle/practical as does for IDPA, I likely would have taken the plunge a year ago.

I cannot offer expertise and knowledge in this case, but I can offer the perspective of the novice wishing to break into the sport. Ok, so maybe I'm already on my way, but the memory is fresh.

Also, I know that the local Range owner and Director would need to have a financial incentive to hold matches. There has to be a workable business model as suggested for this to really take off. Frankly, um pun not originally intended, I feel that the time is ripe for this sport to take off, IF carefully planned and relaunched. I can't say enough how I think that the IDPA model is a great place to learn from while doing so.

FWIW

Edit: After reading a couple more posts that were placed since I started typing the above, I notice a comment regarding the complexity of the IDPA rules and trying to avoid same. While I wholeheartedly agree in concepts, the reality is that the referenced complexity is the result of time and the natural desire by the more competitive types that exist in any sport to further define and narrow down rules. If you've ever competed, locally or otherwise, in any sport you know what I mean. Hell, you may even be that person. Well meaning, simplistic rules will almost always be challenged sooner or latter, and then the governing body (HQ) eventually has to further define and add rules to keep the ambiguity out and the whiners and criers from becoming too loud.

The best that you can do is to do the best that you can do, and then go from there. I cannot imagine that everything could be done perfectly the first time out of the chute and change will occur. Anything else is less than ideal.

 

[Lowlight]

Qualifying and cumulating score to have a "finale" is easy... that takes no effort and no real stretch. We used to do 2 matches a year, now we do one, doing several is not hard, it's just a matter of scheduling. Being able to compare yourself is easy, we can easily turn on a forum today and say, "post your scores"

the idea in a way is to say, if we're gonna compete for sponsors, shooters, and slots during the year to have a match, why not fix some of the issues people have seen, and make it all work out for the better. I can easily just thread the needle between every other match on the planet. Listen to gripes and move on, or I can get pro-active. Attempt to level the playing field.

@Rob01, there isn't a fight, and while it was better before, it was not organized in any way. There were far fewer matches, far less competition for time, sponsors and shooters, However because you have been around the block its worth looking at. It's said you can't put the genie back in the bottle, so it only makes sense to harness the power and make things work for more people instead of isolating those who don't shoot as a so called Pro...

I wanted the public discourse in order to tap into the brain power found here, I truly believe the answers are available that go a bit further than what we have seen.

I definitely agree in simple rules to start, less is better. There is no reason to micro manage people unless requested by a Match Director in the spirit of assistance. If this was F Class, okay, more rules, but this is Tactical Rifle, it's about adapting within the rules. So if we leave the door open, but limit the gear race as much as possible, it only moves the ball down the field

 

[Lowlight]

The Rules need not be overly complex to start.

We know were the benefit comes from, speed... if you say 308, guys run them at 3150fps, if you say no magnum, they run a 6mm at magnum speeds. So separating the divisions by speed solves a lot of that.

I thought about limiting scopes by power, say 25x but consider the price of a 30x XRS, it's cheaper, so you run into that problem. Do you have a stock division, off the shelf rifle with no modification, well maybe, but what constitutes a stock rifle ? You can still buy a stock rifle with a wind cheater caliber. So a guy buys a stock 6.5CM and loads it to 3100fps and competes in a stock division, that sort of defeats the purpose. Speed is the deciding factor, so keeping it regulated eliminate the gear race while allowing those to move forward. you can shoot a 6.5CM at 2800fps and be in the Limited division, decide to move and load it to 2900fps. It gives you an exit.

maybe 3 years from now we add a Stock division by speed there too... but for now easier is better.

 

[*Nine]

Does each affiliated club need to operate from the same exact rulebook? If you're planning on this "match-in-a-box" idea working at established ranges you'll quickly run up against the fact that each range will allow/disallow certain things. I think rather than trying to come up with an iron-clad rulebook it might be more helpful to an aspiring match director if there's a rule framework included with basic rules and scoring. That'll give them a workable set of rules they can take with them when they pitch their match idea to the board of whatever range they're working with, and it'll allow them to be flexible and comply with conditions of the range. As for more specific rulings that would have to come later as the MD runs across those situations. Perhaps that would be something that could be an ongoing discussion here where MDs and other members could talk about rules situations and how they were handled and MDs could exchange ideas and modify their own clubs' rules to address issues.

 

[Lowlight]

No, there is guidelines, but this is NOT FCLASS where every course of fire is the same... it's Tactical Rifle.

No two matches are identical and nobody is looking to make them so.

The Match in a box is a Target only with a suggested course of fire, more than one. I have clearly said the only limitation is the match directors' imagination.

We are not controlling the sport, but classifying it and helping to organize it. I don't care what the course of fire is... it's shoot and hit a target to score a point. The rules need not govern the course of fire at all. if one match scores a hit at 100 points and another scores it at 1 point it makes no difference at all. We are scoring based on factors that go outside the course of fire.

if a match director sees Range X is doing Y, and thinks it is better, he can adopt it. If Match Y sucks and the guys say, contact TRL for help making the match better, great, we are here to help. It's really quite simple and need not be made any harder.

 

[*Nine]

That being the case I don't think there's any need to worry about any fancy type of rulebook, but I'd wager it would be helpful to an aspiring MD to have a simple suggested set of rules they could work from to get going.

 

[Lowlight]

This can be put in practice tomorrow, Read the example, there is nothing about scoring, there is nothing about restricting the course of fire or how the Match Director holds their event.

it's scoring based on final standing, distance shot, weapons used, and say we remove the training part, it only then goes to classification.

How else do you gauge yourself ? By where you ended up when the match is over, but if you shoot a 200 yard match and win and another guy shoots a 1000 yard match and comes in 2nd, he can still be considered better because of the scoring. Say you shoot only a rifle and he shoots a combination of system as most tactical matches do... points are awarded.

Absolutely that is the part of the support system. To help match directors put on better competitions. We have guidelines to help...

 

[*Nine]

Is that directed at me? I'm not saying anything at all about scoring, I'm only responding to the discussion that was taking place above about specifics of rulebooks and IDPA and all that stuff. My feeling is simply that a very simple set of suggested rules might help someone interested in setting up a match have a solid foundation they can build from, and it would assist them by giving them something they can take to a range's board when they make their pitch to hold these matches.

 

[Lowlight]

I thought that was pretty clear in the first post...

Assist Match Director when requested in establishing the best competitive experience possible. This includes help with courses of fire, range assistance, materials etc. The Best matches have the best courses of fire regardless of the resources available locally. Let the TRL help you.

 

[Lowlight]

Most local match directors or aspiring match directors have lives outside the range. They want to hold a monthly match but usually work, life gets in the way.

We (SH) have been putting on matches since 2003. We have traveled around the country attending matches of every variety. So we want to help people by offering our experience in order to make the transition easier for them.

You guys are too focused on the Match in Box line, and don't really understand the concept of that. It's not for "every match" its for guys who want to do something locally. Say you have a range that you believe is being under used, or not at all as far as the precision rifle or tactical rifle shooter. It's a local range, max distance 200 yards. You want to start hosting a local monthly match but have no idea where to begin, or don't have the time to develop a course of fire. You can get the "match in a box" you are not required by any stretch of the imagination it's just a option. It will include a target (depending on which one you choose) that will also include a suggested course of fire or several. Scoring is also suggested but how you use the target is up to you. I don't care, I just want to help and offer that option.

We are not looking to standardize any course of fire... again, 3rd time at least. This for tactical rifle shooters, there is no standard. Sure plenty of matches follow a similar format, but not all. We have no interest in putting our foot in a Match Director's business unsolicited. If they have a match that works, great, drive on, now let's promote and recruit shooters.

if a guy calls up and says, I have 500 acres of land I want to hold a match, can you help me... Sure, in this case a match in a box won't work. So we put him in touch with Steel Dealers, buy this, set up this stage here, try this over here. Don't do a kims instead do KYL at distance... Stalks take up a lot of time, try building barricades instead.

 

[NOMAD]

As they say build it and they will come!!

The sport was growing on its own and matches were at full capacity 2-3 years ago. This concept easily opens the doors wide open for everyone to compete in some or whatever capacity they choose and want while not breaking the bank.

WIN WIN WIN!!!

 

[cmh2007]

I'm definately interested, but living in Houston I have to make a serious drive just to shoot a match. If more could be incorporated close to Houston I'd shoot them

 

[verdugo60]

I think it would be great to bring the scoring and standardized guidelines and rules to the Hide. This would be the ideal place to advertise, educate and discuss, and would make it fun to be able to compare your scores to a "Hide buddy" that you may never meet that shoots a local match across the country from you. If this would enable newer shooters to take the plunge, even better.

A possible merger with PRS would be good eventually too, for those who maybe have started out in local matches and excel or really get into the sport. Maybe this is not necessary, as long as one's scores for the same match could count for both? I understand that may not be possible for a while at least.

The speed thing makes sense, but I wonder if there could be sub-divisions for certain calibers? i.e. someone shooting a stock 308 PSS vs a guy shooting a full custom 6.5 with 142 smk's @ just under 2800 fps, the 6.5 guy would still have a wind advantage so maybe have a subdivision with a reward for guys shooting 308's, 223's or gas guns, etc? Because under the proposed example they would both be in Limited class right? Overall the velocity idea is great I think, maybe the way to do the caliber thing without naming specific calibers (that would enable equipment races in ballistics) would be to have bullet BC's x velocity to get a "ballistics" score that would factor into points allocated or something? Kind of like major or minor power factor in IDPA? I'm sure someone smarter than me could think up a bit better system for that but you get the idea.

Overall I think it's a great idea and I would love to see more local matches start up in CO/WY that aren't just "prarie-dog" shoots where you just shift from one berm to the next. Those are their own challenge but having some more monthly or bi-monthly "action" oriented ones where you can move, maybe use a "spotter carbine" etc would be awesome, especially when ranking with other matches in a fair way.

 

[Lowlight]

There is always gonna be an advantage, one could argue that a guy shooting a 308 at 2575 shooting against a guy shooting it 2725 has an advantage.

The idea is not to create a blow out situation and keep it competitive while not breaking it down into 10 different classes.

If the guy shooting a 308 is feeling it against a 6.5 shooting under 2800fps, then he can switch to a 155gr and shoot it up to 2800 himself and take back that advantage.

Open vs Limited based on speed eases you into it.

 

[bward]

I think this could work in areas that don't already have a club established. In OK we have the OPPS, and as a member you have full access to a trailer full of steel targets and target stands. Anyone can host a match at any time and have full access to all of our steel and stands. Usually when someone new wants to host a match there are several more experienced members that help them set up their course of fire. We also host a few train ups every year where the new members have the ability to come out and shoot a course of fire with the more experienced members there to offer advice and tips. We basically set up a match with out any of the scoring or anything else that may intimidate a new shooter.

I realize that many of the OPPS members do actively shoot PRS matches, and I don't want you to think I am here trying to say your idea won't work or anything like that. I just wanted to make the point that many areas of the country may already have local clubs set up to try to achieve the goal that you are after.

 

[Lowlight]

Many areas... not really when you consider the average range in the US is 200 yards or less. Maybe a few, and far less with resources to offer. I would suspect it's a lot less than you think.

However if, Many Areas have that ability then it real requires nothing more than a shooter / TRL member to get a copy of a score sheet to use the points. Nothing else is needed, hands off completely.

A TRL Member could attend a PRS event and still needs nothing more then the score sheet after the match. No more than that is required. They can operate in concert with each other without one affecting the other.

 

[AtOne]

Frank I like it and I think there is a gap in what's missing right now in this sport that this can fill.
One consolidated site, with all the results, stories, scoring, points and advertising all in one place.

I'm planning on hitting the first two PRS matches next year after shooting 16 matches this year here in the Northwest. The biggest draw for me to the PRS is that its the only game in town that gives points results from matches and actually gives you an idea of where you stand in this sport against other competitors.
It is a brutally tough sport to be a part of on that level not only in money but in time as well which is why our matches up here are great to hit.
BUT the one thing we're missing is just what your talking about, having an association that helps everyone feel like their a part of something larger and when they go to a match their points are posted up and they can check to see how they compare each month against other shooters in the area.
It gives a match more worth when the results actually mean something rather than just bragging rights until the next one comes up.

I can see the scoring be two fold, break it up into regions. Northwest, Southwest, Northeast and Southeast and also have a overall National score. This would make it easy for everyone who shoots within a couple state region on a regular basis to see all the guys and gals they compete with easily by looking at the scores from their region and would help it feel more localized. National scores are just everyone put into one listing.

The other thing with the scoring is that it would be good to take the top "X" amount of finishes like the PRS does for overall placement. That way it gives people a reasonable chance to have a good score without having to hit every match humanly possible and doesn't give someone who can hit 20 matches and only scores in the middle of the pack a better position than the person that hits 6 but scores in the top 5 every time.

Average target size might be needed in the equation for points also. A 500 yard longest range match with an average target size of 2 moa would be much more challenging than a match with a the same range and 4 moa size targets. May make it too confusing but it would give a better representation of the difficulty level of the match also.

Have tons of ideas for this but I'll start with that for now...keep it going your on the right track !

 

[bward]

I see your point. I guess I was thinking about a different setting for a match and different distances. It's easy to get spoiled where there is a vast amount of land that you have access to use.

 

[Lowlight]

I can see it being a Regional thing, I have the ability to divide a section of the site in regions. This way, people from the same area can discuss the relevant venues.

Then from those regions members could assign themselves the area, doesn't matter if they shoot outside their area, they still belong to a region. Then taking something like the Top 5 scores give them the qualifying score for a National ... It makes sense, as chances are if you start with a region, many of the same guys will shoot the same matches giving you a good idea of where you stand. Then take that standing and testing it on a national level. Clearly some popular matches are more regional to start, so it fits.

Taking smaller percentages from the regionals actually spreads out the overall composition of the Nationals

 

[AtOne]

Excellent and put that way it makes even more sense to break it up.

On another note and not sure how this could be done reasonably well but it would be great to have a simplified form on the site for match directors to simply input the criteria from the match results using your formula from above and it would automatically update the overall results.
Making it easy for match directors to post results by filling out one form and not having to keep track of everything themselves I'm sure would motivate them to get the results listed.
Easy is good especially when their putting the effort to run the matches.

I can also see benefits on the advertising side of the regional results also. You could target local advertisers dollars by giving them an option to have an ad in a select region. That way smaller companies that rely on walk in traffic can know that their ad dollars are being directed around their location.

Here on the Hide the SHWW and Puget Sound Area Shooters threads in the members link up section have been the way all of us up here have kept in contact, know whats going on for matches and have built a real tight knit group of friends with.The SHWW thread alone has over 5 million views to give an idea of how important the Hide has been to us ! Thanks BTW

 

[Massoud]

Why not just have one administrative team that puts on matches at various venues across the US? This would actually give the series the feeling of a series rather than a bunch of independent matches who really have very little in common, not even competitors outside the top guys really.

When the PRS first formed, I thought it was great to have a national series. Since then it has become apparent to me that it's a few pros competing against local amateurs. That's not a knock on the PRS, there's just very few pro LR shooters. It's kind of like the early days of pro motocross in that respect I guess. One thing I think for sure has to happen is that there has to be some separation between pros and amateurs, just like every form of competition basically.

I'll be watching this thread as some interesting things could come out of this.

 

[LawnMM]

I'm going to toss in an idea with regard to growing the sport and getting new shooters involved. People who are interested can be intimidated by price of a match and the level of competition. I suggest you have a couple different 'divisions' of sorts and maybe group prizes and entry fees accordingly. The SHC is great and everybody got their money back at the prize table, but not everyone knows that looking at match fees, trave expenses etc. Why not tier the prizes along with the divisions so that a new guy who's going to have a go of it with dad's hunting rifle can get in for maybe 100 bucks and get a taste for it with a chance at say 100 bucks in prizes. Come up with an intermediate level and an expert level. As you rank up the cost of admission goes up because your chances of walking away with a 2000 dollar scope go up to.

This way you get more new guys in the door for less outlay, but its still fair enough that a guy paying less to shoot beginner doesn't yank a rifle out from under somebody in the expert class. I know I'll get my moneys worth at SHC, some other matches are almost as expensive, I have to travel to get there, with a smaller prize table and the same group of talent to compete against.

You could build in auto rank ups as well to avoid sand bagging, if you place top 25 2x in the same year you auto rank up to intermediate next year, etc.

 

[Lowlight]

This has nothing to do with regards to the cost of a match, we can't even begin to think about that. It's not fair.

If you think paying for a match is expensive try running one. The time you spent setting up and checking the COF is more or less a complete loss. The paperwork, emails, questions, all the administrative stuff is free.

You have the land, targets, insurance, supplies, we paid for hotel rooms for Range Officers, it's really quite expensive to run a match. A majority of the competitions out there don't turn a profit even with so many volunteering their free time.

 

[Lowlight]

Justin,

I like the idea of regional representatives attending to help. There is a lot of good that can come from someone representing when necessary.

You can always ask the MD and see if they need the support and that way it doesn't encroach on them but instead offers another hand.

 

[LawnMM]

This has nothing to do with regards to the cost of a match, we can't even begin to think about that. It's not fair.

If you think paying for a match is expensive try running one. The time you spent setting up and checking the COF is more or less a complete loss. The paperwork, emails, questions, all the administrative stuff is free.

You have the land, targets, insurance, supplies, we paid for hotel rooms for Range Officers, it's really quite expensive to run a match. A majority of the competitions out there don't turn a profit even with so many volunteering their free time.

I don't think its expensive but I make pretty good money, cost is relative to your income. Maybe do a membership fee for your shooting league too? Help offset some of the costs you mentioned. Just tossing out ideas.

 

[AtOne]

I like Massouds idea too and think it can be expanded upon with whats already been discussed.

I'll use Washington as an example of what could happen

We have two ranges in the state one on the east side and one on the west that can and do run matches.
Each range would have a series of say 7 one day matches in the year, No prize tables, just points.
That gives everyone from Oregon to Idaho an opportunity to come shoot 14 matches even if they don't have matches in their own state.

Take the top 4 finishes of any shooter and use that for total scoring in the regional points race.
Lets say you take the top 20 % or "X" amount ( 400 total competitors so the top 80 are qualified ) of the competitors and have a regional finale that the association puts on located somewhere central to everyone. This match could be a two day match with vendors having a table and open it to paid spectators who want to follow along ( Picture golf lol )That way anyone that didn't qualify or wants to watch their spouse or friend compete could come watch and enjoy the experience of a finale.
This would give other people who have thought about trying this sport out a chance to see how much fun it actually is and would open it up to new shooters in the sport.

The regional finale would have a prize table and awards for not only the match but for regional points placement as well.
I could see setting up sponsors for each region with not only large companies but smaller ones as well that are local to the area and giving them ad space on the regions forum and a opportunity to be at the finale and meet with people as a great way for them to connect with their customers.

Then take the top 25% or "X" amount of shooters from each regional finale and they are now qualified for the National finale which would be the BIG show, televised match or just streaming coverage. Shooters could be squaded by their placements from a combined score of their regional points and finale points so that it keeps the same caliber level of shooters together for the match.

Coverage, stores and results are important to grow a sport, without it, its just another match with no meaning.

 

[AtOne]

One more thing , using Massoud's idea also you could have the association run 10 to 12 large matches throughout the year that would have prize tables and National points also. These would be more professional level matches and scored as National points with those having more points value than the smaller regional matches.

Take the top two finishes for total scoring and the top 20% or "X" amount of competitors for placement in the National finale.
This gives two routes for people to get to the finale, Professional level National shooters and regional shooters all combined at one final event to see who is really the top shooter in the nation.

 

[Rob01]

Coverage, stores and results are important to grow a sport, without it, its just another match with no meaning.

No. Fun grows the sport. You can have all that other stuff but if people aren't having fun they won't show up. And a match that you have fun at has plenty of meaning. This is the problem that the past couple years has been coming around. People are thinking like the quote. I got into this sport because it was fun. Fun shooting with like minded people and friends. The sport is growing and has been for years and will continue as long as it's kept fun.