As 2014 Approaches does this need to be addressed ?

[Lowlight]

It's already been stated the PRS has no interest in working with site, none. That is why the majority of them left this site after they used it to launch the PRS. Apparently the heavy axe is not worth anything in their opinion as they made no effort to find any sort of middle ground.

As I noted I gave the PRS the scores from the Cup. Once that deal was made which included numerous offers to use the site to their benefit and mine. No further contact was made with me. Thanks for the scores, bye.

This is week I received an email from the PRS stating if I was not gonna have the SHC as a PRS event in 2014 they were gonna schedule a match in WY the same week as the Cup. So... How does that sound? Think we can find common ground and work together.

There is good in the discussion, the fact a match directors or some one associated to a particular match would get their feelings hurt because the size of their match skews the numbers means another solution needs to be looked at. And I believe I have the answer to that. So last place in 48 person match is the same as last in an 85 person match. Though I did find it interesting researching that even golf courses rank each other. But I get the butt hurt feelings, guys are emotionally tied to "their" regardless of the differences. A 1.5 day match feels every bit the 2.5 day one. Clearly it doesn't matter 48 vs 85 vs 125 they all have to get weighed as close as possible.

I honestly fail fail to see what the PRS offers in terms of the membership. I get it, and the point is made here, it elevates certain matches but overall if you in the bottom 1/2 of the membership because you can't shoot 4 or more bigger matches what is the return? A $100 to see your name on a webpage. Which is why I am not charging anything.

Clearly that is an issue as my back channel discussions with PRS members who read this feel the same way. None have spoken in public but behind the scenes plenty have something to say.

Funny, nobody ever considers how long and how much this place has to do with helping these matches. It's always about something else. I often wonder how that competition would fair if I charged to advertise your match? Or how many would continue to grow if I said, the PRS and any associated match is a commercial entity now. Can you survive talking to the same 100 people having to start over and not use my axe to clear the field.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Leaders move task's, game's & teams forward. Wallowing equates to being static.

 

[-Nick-]

Whatever happened to just shooting a match, having a good time, and not getting focused on whether or not you get something off a f#$king prize table or points on a board? This is the problem with almost all associations. It no longer becomes about the sport and enjoying the company of others while learning from each other, but instead becomes a numbers game and politics. Fuck all that noise. Some of us just want to go out and shoot and shoot well. Same thing happens when match directors start experiencing growth. They become prima donnas and start using the matches as a way of exerting their belief of how the sport should be and turn their matches into politics within the sport. Next thing you know there's no semi-autos allowed, no magnums, no calling shots for other team members, no this, no that, blah blah blah... and why? Because it's all in the name of "fairness"? Yeah... right. I'm just waiting for the next move which is when these associations start forcing people to be paid members in order to shoot their matches. That's essentially what will end up happening.

 

[Lowlight]

Thanks for watching,

My match means more to me than you,

up next,

Soapbox Confessions, the stories of things, never said or suggested.

Later a tribute to Tom Hanks in,

I don't get it....

 

[Night Eagle]

As they say build it and they will come!!

The sport was growing on its own and matches were at full capacity 2-3 years ago. This concept easily opens the doors wide open for everyone to compete in some or whatever capacity they choose and want while not breaking the bank.

WIN WIN WIN!!!

I agree

 

[Night Eagle]

you dont have to have shooter ability or classification. speed is the main factor here. obviously the "pros" will be going w/ their custom high speed rigs and that leaves the rest of us blokes with our crappy ol' .308's to compete w/

 

[Dagsta]

Interesting thread no doubt. I'll throw in my humble opinion if no one minds. I believe wholeheartedly Franks idea with some refinement and support is valid and has merit. I think like Tony that the sport is growing and there is surely room for another venue of a classification which breaks down equipment or velocity or whatever the community agrees to that is valid.

The PRS has been successful in their mission and I believe it has brought to light how really good the top shooters in the sport really are. It has been successful in pairing the top shooters together and competing together. and an avenue for shooters who have trained and honed their skills to compete in an arena with those top shooters. I have no problems whatsoever with the PRS, I think it has been good for the sport. I am not a PRS member only because I have little time to compete anymore, and the fact that I'm devoting more time to our training venue at K&M.

I competed in NRA sanctioned competitions for many years, and the classification system worked very well. It gave shooters of equal experience and ability the venue to compete against each other as they were progressing and moving up. However without a consistent format that same type of system wouldn't work.

I do hate to see the chest pounding and butt hurt as I don't believe at all Frank's motive to promote the sport with another venue was intended as anything but positive. Lets have an open mind and see if the idea can gain some momentum and support.

Not everyone is going to be in the PRS, just like some people like Miller Lite and some like Bud Light!! So if there is another venue that has an attraction for shooters not intending to compete on the PRS circuit, it could be very successful in its own right.

Just my .2 cents

 

[D Miller]

Ideas and observations from my tiny little speck in the shooting universe:

*Great idea at heart!

*Growth lies with the MDs- Running a match sucks, shooting matches is awesome, more quality matches please!
-Attendance is not usually an issue, waiting lists can be longer than the actual roster.
-Support for new and upcoming MDs would be great especially to encourage new matches in regions that may not have one.
-Restrictions, penalties or handicaps on the size of the match would likely discourage new MDs and smaller clubs from hosting a "lesser" match. Not everyone has thousands of acres and a 100+ man club at their disposal.

*Quality over quantity- I would rather shoot a quality match with 30 people that is fun and well run than sit on my butt for 3+ hours waiting for the next 100 people to go. Bigger isn't always better, don't take more than your facility can accommodate.

*I don't think there will ever be one united tactical shooting organization with the crybabies, big axes, and egos constantly dividing the sport(equal blame placed on both sides) so don't waste the effort.
-Would 2 separate leagues with similar goals ending in a "Superbowl" type finale on neutral gang territory be out of the realm of possibility? IE- top shooters from group "A's" series finale vs top shooters from group "B's" finale???

*Train-ups
-Im not a fan of train ups the days before the match. Do it live, jump in head first with every one on the same level playing field! Not against guys that have had 2 days of prior practice and dope gathering on the range.
-training clinics for newer shooters throughout the year is a good thing

*Classifications
-If you want to keep track of it on a league level then by all means but it will be a big burden for MDs to chrono and equipment check all shooters prior.
-Honor system works 90-95% of the time in this community from my observations.


Frank has enough clout in the industry to make what ever he wants happen. Im just offering some thoughts from my last few years shooting experience.

 

[Lowlight]

So the question is,

if the points were not # of shooters reversing the order, because that means bigger matches eclipse smaller ones, is it worth doing it by percentage

So in a 50 person match you have the winner getting 100%, so that is 10 points
2nd Place would be 96% so 9.6
3rd Place would be 94% so 9.4
48th Place would be 4% so .4

A bigger match really only moves by points of the whole number.

Does this percentage value level the field in a way that recognizes the bigger matches vs smaller ones, without overly swaying the values.

I honestly don't get why people don't understand the value of the train up. I guess because most don't; own the range, instead they are working in a club environment. But they completely miss the point of the match director being able to balance the money put into the event. I always read on here, "Gee my match doesn't make any money" .. and I get that but one way to recoup those costs in a train up, and if not a train up, training. If you put on a "big match" in your small pond, how beneficial would it be to have a "Novice Shooter" Train up the weekend before, you can use this to acclimatize them to the flow of the match and at the same time give them a training opportunity.

Nobody today has patience for new shooters, they all act like they should know things or just let them fall and if they are serious they will pick themselves up. Training, Train Ups solve so many problems. And for guys calling their matches "National" matches to discount the ability for someone who just stepped off a plane to verify everything is good, is a bit foolish. Very few people like it when the match is a 2 Day Big National Match and the director says, "Nobody can verify zeroes, No shooting until the match starts" we have done a few like this and I will tell you people just look for another place to shoot to confirm this stuff.

It's really narrow minded thinking to decry the training opportunities a Match Director can take advantage of. Maybe the problem is the ranges they use won't let them ?

But i can see moving that scale to .25 points per 4 hours of training. I think missing the promotional opportunities and incentives is wrong.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Frank,

Good points. NCPPRC doesn't offer train ups because we are not instructors but this year we are considering an open range day where all competitors can confirm 0s on all the ranges used in our event. Cost will probably be 50.00.

Making money off our events isn't a huge deal to us as long as most of the cost is covered. Our club walks away with a few new targets and some hardware we can use for future events. Charging enough to pay my range crew would be crazy expensive for the competitors since most of those guys much rather spend the weekend with their families vs. running around the range.

Personally I see a lot of merit getting more clubs or organization online to help folks get something started on a monthly basis. We run 18 monthly matches a year ranging from 35 to 60 shooters depending on the match and season. It is the monthly local events that really help build our sport. These are the events where a noob can come get help at and refine their skills month after month.

I wish we had more local monthly events out west because the nearest one of quality is Vegas. That is about 9 hours one way for norcal guys.

 

[Massoud]

Back to the classes thing...Zach mentioned several things that are right on. There has to be a situation where a novice shooter has an enjoyable experience. The class system in MX provides for this but I do agree with the problems mentioned. For example how could someone justify a "novice" national championship.

However I disagree with Rob in that I think a pro shooter is not a peer to a novice shooter except in the general human sense. From motocross to football, no one competes or even practices with as large a skill/experience gap as what happens now in LR shooting. I don't think handicaps or rankings are the way to go. I personally think it will be too complex and not useful in the end.

There is one way that I could see working. Classification could be outcome based, as in, the pros go for money, the rest go for trophies (for example, or just fun). The pro class could be open to anyone but if you want to win the cash then you better be up to that level otherwise you just finish last and get no money. The pro class wouldn't need velocity/gear rules necessarily, it would be an all out brawl for the cash, no whining, just win.

The fun class would be where guys get experience, have a good time, hang out with buddies, etc. Maybe this is divided up by velocity to even things out a bit, I don't think a novice sub-class is necessary here because there's nothing on the line but I could see it being useful although you don't get anything for winning it. Then when guys get experience and gain skill they can decide if they want to get serious and step up to the pros. A lot of guys still do like the competitive aspect even in the lower skill classes so some recognition of winning/ top 3 would be best.

This is where it gets tricky because you have the prize table. In a way it's a stumbling block. I agree with Zach and others that having it random is illogical. On the other hand, what other sport has a prize table? I really don't know. When I go to a MX race, as an amateur I don't expect to take home a new set of tires just for showing up or even for winning, a trophy or plaque for winning is what guys get. If I wanted to win something I would compete in the pro class (and get beat). Maybe it's time for prize tables to go away, and sponsors pay money to sponsor a match, just like the rest of competitive sports. The money goes in part to the director, part to the pros. The sponsors get to set up banners and booths at the match. If an an amateur goes to a match and takes home a NF scope for finishing 4th or 10th or even winning, doesn't that make him a pro in some respect? Maybe that type of compensation is where the line is drawn in the classes. Pros get money or stuff, amateurs have fun and gain skill/experience.

As a corollary to that, sponsors could expand their sponsorship of pros (and get exposure through the pro classes even at matches they don't sponsor). Sponsors could also do like in MX where they have contingencies for amateurs, i.e. if you win a certain match using a certain NF scope then NF will kick back 100 dollars or NF bucks.

 

[Lowlight]

Vu,

One thought, while you guys are not instructors, you are accomplished Match Shooters, and your insight has value, especially to a new shooter, or an older shooter looking to get back into the sport.

it's not so much as instructing like a Rifles Only does, but more about imparting best practices when it comes to a competition of any type. It doesn't have to be expensive, but it has value and helps in several ways, especially taking the shock of a first match off the shoulders of a new shooter. It does ease them in and manages expectations.

For the Match Directors reading this, most set up the matches ahead of time. (we do) The idea you can do test runs with these new shooters a week ahead of time will help tighten up the overall competition. "Hey are you signed up for the match on Saturday, come out the Sunday before and for $20 you can get a train up from accomplished match shooters". It's that easy.

I know I spent the last month helping Trigger Time set up their ranch for monthly matches out there. We had 20 or so shooters show up yesterday and try it out. It was cut short thanks to 40 to 60 MPH Winds. (one team read 62MPH on the side of a hill) CO has a lot of monthly matches, most of them 600 yards and in. To shoot further they go to Raton, so having a new option 1 hour from Denver is awesome, so I was happy to help.

I just think the guys arguing against certain things don't quite understand the bigger picture, from both a shooter and Match Director's perspective.

 

[D Miller]

I honestly don't get why people don't understand the value of the train up. I guess because most don't; own the range, instead they are working in a club environment. But they completely miss the point of the match director being able to balance the money put into the event. I always read on here, "Gee my match doesn't make any money" .. and I get that but one way to recoup those costs in a train up, and if not a train up, training. If you put on a "big match" in your small pond, how beneficial would it be to have a "Novice Shooter" Train up the weekend before, you can use this to acclimatize them to the flow of the match and at the same time give them a training opportunity.

Nobody today has patience for new shooters, they all act like they should know things or just let them fall and if they are serious they will pick themselves up. Training, Train Ups solve so many problems. And for guys calling their matches "National" matches to discount the ability for someone who just stepped off a plane to verify everything is good, is a bit foolish. Very few people like it when the match is a 2 Day Big National Match and the director says, "Nobody can verify zeroes, No shooting until the match starts" we have done a few like this and I will tell you people just look for another place to shoot to confirm this stuff.

It's really narrow minded thinking to decry the training opportunities a Match Director can take advantage of. Maybe the problem is the ranges they use won't let them ?

But i can see moving that scale to .25 points per 4 hours of training. I think missing the promotional opportunities and incentives is wrong.

Train ups:

From the MDs point of view- Financially it makes perfect sense if you own the range. However it could net you a loss if you pay for additional range time and fail to get the numbers needed to clear your overhead.

From a competitors point of view- Not every one can take additional days off to get the Cliffs Notes for the up coming competition. It is buying an advantage in the competition is it not?


Edit- Maybe we have 2 different thoughts on what a train up is. To make the match run smoother is great, to practice the match or similar distances and stages is not.


I would not expect to see any new shooters in a "big" league match. Most if not all have some kind of local match experience by the time they are spending hundreds to a thousand dollars in travel and match entry.

All the multi day matches I have experienced so far have a 100y zero range set up at sign in but not a practice for the range/match days before.

 

[Lowlight]

Very few see a big advantage to attending a train up. There is no huge difference. Normally you never let them shoot the COF at all... so they are not getting an advantage.

It's not buying any spots in the match.

As I said we have done it where there was no sight in, or shots before.

 

[Nate O.]

Back to the classes thing...Zach mentioned several things that are right on. There has to be a situation where a novice shooter has an enjoyable experience. The class system in MX provides for this but I do agree with the problems mentioned. For example how could someone justify a "novice" national championship.

However I disagree with Rob in that I think a pro shooter is not a peer to a novice shooter except in the general human sense. From motocross to football, no one competes or even practices with as large a skill/experience gap as what happens now in LR shooting. I don't think handicaps or rankings are the way to go. I personally think it will be too complex and not useful in the end.

There is one way that I could see working. Classification could be outcome based, as in, the pros go for money, the rest go for trophies (for example, or just fun). The pro class could be open to anyone but if you want to win the cash then you better be up to that level otherwise you just finish last and get no money. The pro class wouldn't need velocity/gear rules necessarily, it would be an all out brawl for the cash, no whining, just win.

The fun class would be where guys get experience, have a good time, hang out with buddies, etc. Maybe this is divided up by velocity to even things out a bit, I don't think a novice sub-class is necessary here because there's nothing on the line but I could see it being useful although you don't get anything for winning it. Then when guys get experience and gain skill they can decide if they want to get serious and step up to the pros. A lot of guys still do like the competitive aspect even in the lower skill classes so some recognition of winning/ top 3 would be best.

This is where it gets tricky because you have the prize table. In a way it's a stumbling block. I agree with Zach and others that having it random is illogical. On the other hand, what other sport has a prize table? I really don't know. When I go to a MX race, as an amateur I don't expect to take home a new set of tires just for showing up or even for winning, a trophy or plaque for winning is what guys get. If I wanted to win something I would compete in the pro class (and get beat). Maybe it's time for prize tables to go away, and sponsors pay money to sponsor a match, just like the rest of competitive sports. The money goes in part to the director, part to the pros. The sponsors get to set up banners and booths at the match. If an an amateur goes to a match and takes home a NF scope for finishing 4th or 10th or even winning, doesn't that make him a pro in some respect? Maybe that type of compensation is where the line is drawn in the classes. Pros get money or stuff, amateurs have fun and gain skill/experience.

As a corollary to that, sponsors could expand their sponsorship of pros (and get exposure through the pro classes even at matches they don't sponsor). Sponsors could also do like in MX where they have contingencies for amateurs, i.e. if you win a certain match using a certain NF scope then NF will kick back 100 dollars or NF bucks.

I understand what you're sayin and while i do love shooting/competing, i would not burn 4 days vacation and drive out to wyoming for a chance to win a trophy.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Lowlight]

One thing people don't get,

The CUP would be the Finale / Big National / Championship, so the prize table would be used to spread among the regional people who qualify, and talking we can take close to 20 people per region and shoot them no problem.

It wouldn't be travel for a 4 day match for a trophy with no prizes, we have over $200k in prizes at the CUP. We gave away 7 rifles alone.

 

[Rob01]

However I disagree with Rob in that I think a pro shooter is not a peer to a novice shooter except in the general human sense.

I guess everyone sees themselves different. I don't see my abilities or wearing a shirt with names on it making me any different than anyone else wanting to shoot the sport. They are my peers. If anyone needs or wants anything or just wants to shoot the shit I am cool with it and will help anyone. Guess my head hasn't swollen like some in this sport. Not saying you but that is what I used to like about the sport. Guys/friends shooting and having fun.

 

[Mike]

that is what I used to like about the sport. Guys/friends shooting and having fun.

Truer words never spoken

 

[Massoud]

Nate it seems you'd be a natural fit for the pro class then, you could run a hot 6mm against the big boys for a chance at a real prize.

If we look at a football analogy, we could say the cup would be the superbowl. Players/teams that go to the superbowl get compensated in cash and free stuff, but those guys are serious, they are pros. Even regionals are for more serious shooters. For the novice guys and other amateurs there's the local matches where it's more fun based in that class. There's no superbowl for intramural football and there's no prizes for winning an intramural game, just fun and pride (okay sometimes a t-shirt).

I'm not saying necessarily that the cup would be for pros only, just that it seems like logical division for the classes, competing for cash/stuff vs lower skill, less serious competition where you get a plaque.

Rob I understand what you are saying but look at the sponsor list under your name. You have that list for a reason, you've earned it, you are a sponsored shooter, basically what we have for a pro in this sport right now. A lot of pro football players would happily play a game of flag football with average joes and have beers after but no one would imagine that they'd have a real competition against each other or that Joe hobbyist would line up for the Giants on Sunday.

Maybe it's time to have a discussion about compensation. If nothing is on the line and we're all just having fun, then the discussion of rules and classes really doesn't matter. But will the sport grow and what's the purpose of regionals and nationals if nothing is on the line and the results don't matter? I still think if it's going to grow as a competitive sport then someone has to make money. You know what I saw on TV at the gym last night, frisbee. Maybe someone can enlighten us as to how frisbee grew from a stoner college kid sport to being televised and maybe that's a model we can use, seriously.

 

[Zak Smith]

Good comments Justin. I see a good argument for the other way though, the reward for the pros is the notoriety and what it brings to their sponsors, and maybe cash prizes in 1st-3rd or whatever. If you want a shot at the pro title you take your chances. The amateurs actually get a lot of benefit from the normal prize table IMO and those guys are over the moon if they get a Kifaru pack or a new Nightforce.

 

[Nate O.]

Nate it seems you'd be a natural fit for the pro class then, you could run a hot 6mm against the big boys for a chance at a real prize.

Forget it....how could any farm boy/girl compete?




Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Gray]

Normally you never let them shoot the COF at all... QUOTE]

That one thing that pissed me off about the last PRS match I shot in. Guys who did the train up shot the same movers as we did during the match. Not that big of a deal, but I definitely didn't have dope on it like all the others that did the train up. It's little stuff like that that ruin it for me.

 

[Massoud]

I have to say Zach that the prize table is one of the neater things that I like about the sport. From the sponsor side of it, I don't know if it's sustainable. I've spoken to a few other sponsors to get their philosophy on it and I'd like to hear yours offline sometime. I do see what you mean about the pro compensation. Jeremy Mcgrath's race win purses were not large compared to his salary from Honda and other sponsors.

One key difference that keeps popping up to me is that our sport doesn't have a spectator base wherein a shooter could promote his sponsors. This was mentioned a few pages back. Tide in Nascar, for example, paid a driver/team because 100K+ eyes were on that sponsor logo every week. Can we make LR shooting something spectators will watch? Do we want to? Do we need to in order to grow the sport? I don't know.

 

[Lowlight]

The sponsorship model has to change a bit.

This is why SH Is unique because I offset Site Sponsor Costs by siphoning the money away from the site and into the prizes for the match. This is a key advantage for me and my Matches, it's sort of written into the deal up front. This is a key reason why my tables are so big.

There are a lot of people vying for sponsorship, especially with the individuals now in the market. I talk to a number of sponsor and request are pretty high out there.

I can see the local matches pretty much staying the same, but i believe we can filter some of the sponsors we have to the regionals and then maintain or even grow the big Nationals ... that is the best way, but locally it would remain as it does.

Been having a lot of conversations today with people as this message is getting out and the suggestions and feedback has been super positive. The nice thing about the back channels is they stay above the fray and give really great criticisms and feedback to help fine tune the proposal. There are a lot of people looking to see this succeed and that is awesome.

 

[Massoud]

I could see how it would work if TRL admin was clearing house for prizes and sponsors had one POC (TRL admin) and sponsors just directed requests for prizes to TRL admin who could then sanction the match, send prizes, both, or neither. Of course sponsors could still send stuff to their favorite matches or whatever outside the TRL.

 

[Disturbed]

Wow, I just read this entire thread. And feel free to ignore my comments if you would like.

I have shot in IDPA, USPSA, 3-gun and F-class. Each have there own pluses and minuses.
IDPA has too many rules, and they only have a single classifier. But the field is balanced for gear and ability
USPSA has a scoring system that takes a computer to solve but they are much less restrictive on rules and equipment while still maintaining a solid division on ability by using a large amount of uniform classifier stages.
3 Gun puts shooters into classification by equipment, some people would argue that the lower level shooters end up paying for the prize table for the top shooters.

I think that LL is on to something with his plan. I will say that there will be a time when a central governing organization like the pistol sports will be needed. I love the regions idea. In the Southeast we do not have as many places to shoot long range and, short of shooting in a hurricane, almost never get winds of 40+ mph.

I like the equipment divisions. 2-3 divisions based on equipment are a great start. If it takes off and you have a large enough membership then you will need to add sub categories for ability but not at this point.

A uniformed scoring system needs to be in place for any of this to work. You could do this in many ways but there are a lot of variables to consider. Prone vs. improvised, target size in relation to distance, par time or Virginia count. I like basing it on an average distance to target or a formula for target size. (distance/target "MOA"/100 = points) Example 1: shooting an 8" target at 400 yards would net you 2 points. Example 2: a 10" target at 1000 yards would net you 10 points.

Training before hand would be necessary for me. I have never shot in a high winds or high elevations so I would need a chance to practice. This is not a big deal for short range shooting but at this type of event it would be critical.

I would not Chrono at the local level. I have never done this with pistols and if you are cheating at a low level match you are only hurting yourself when a shoot a major match.

 

[Raven 6]

Lowlight if I'm reading this correctly you pretty much want to run it like the BASS Federation. Do well on the local level and work up to State then regional, the to the classic so to speak, except not all the 100 page rule book. I think you are on to something and hope you can get the details worked out. As a local match shooter I would welcome the opportunity to work my way up to the big show (provided I was good enough).

 

[Rob01]

Rob I understand what you are saying but look at the sponsor list under your name. You have that list for a reason, you've earned it, you are a sponsored shooter, basically what we have for a pro in this sport right now. A lot of pro football players would happily play a game of flag football with average joes and have beers after but no one would imagine that they'd have a real competition against each other or that Joe hobbyist would line up for the Giants on Sunday.

Maybe it's time to have a discussion about compensation. If nothing is on the line and we're all just having fun, then the discussion of rules and classes really doesn't matter. But will the sport grow and what's the purpose of regionals and nationals if nothing is on the line and the results don't matter? I still think if it's going to grow as a competitive sport then someone has to make money. You know what I saw on TV at the gym last night, frisbee. Maybe someone can enlighten us as to how frisbee grew from a stoner college kid sport to being televised and maybe that's a model we can use, seriously.

Whether people are competition or not doesn't and shouldn't matter if it's about people getting out and having fun. Maybe I am just a little nostalgic or simple. I didn't shoot any rifle matches in 2013 because honestly I was turned off at the way the sport has gone from the sport I used to enjoy. I think Frank's ideas might bring some of that back.

What is on the line really? Nothing worth getting worked up about but people are starting to take it way too seriously and when it becomes work it loses it's appeal to me. A wise man has said this to many people before his match, paraphrased- "It's just a rifle match. In a few months no one will remember who won and who came in last except those people."

 

[Lowlight]

Talking with people and reflecting myself, I think a modification would be close to

Scoring Final Placement / Percentage of overall. Then slide the decimal point.

Winner = 10 Points and it goes down based on the percentage of the number of total shooters. Plus a 2 point bonus for winning a match. (lowered)

This way if you shoot against 50 people and come 10 spots from last you get that percentage, it should work out very close to the same. One interesting thing i noted, and my math could be wrong, but I noticed with the PRS scoring if a match use the 100 point per stage method their PRS score works out better than a match that uses the 1 point per hit method. If you have bigger numbers you get a higher score vs a match that uses a lower number format. Someone may have to check my math but it appeared to work out that way. (the SHC had a max score of like 150, other matches can have over 2000 points it doesn't appear to translate the same) So working via percentage, I think you are only swinging the number by a percentage point and not by a large margin.

I think getting rid of the firearms score is a good thing. Don't see a need for it.

Range score is based on average shot overall for the match. So average distance / 100 = Range Offset

That gives your scoring Percent of Final Placement on a maximum of 10 point basis plus 2pt bonus for winning. Then a Range Offset via Average Range shot / 100.

Training points are .25 per 4 hours of training. I really believe in promoting this, and if smaller local matches don't want to explore this I think they are missing out.

The speed classifications are good, I think it's fair. Not perfect, but fair and levels the playing field to reasonable expectation.
Limited = 2800fps and under, Open = 2850fps and over.

I am thinking about the Pro vs Joe classification and it was suggested to use a qualifying stage. Basically a 100 yard Stage that is based on time & score. As an example you would shoot 2 Shots Standing, 2 Shots Kneeling, 2 Shots Sitting and 5 shots prone (mag change between Sitting & prone) on something like a dot target. Have a cut off for score and time that creates the classification you shoot under. Of course someone could sandbag the classification but if you mix the incentives for winning where the Pros earn more in the end, you hopefully eliminate much of that. Not perfect but considering it strongly.

There is talk of a gas gun qualifier too, and I am all for a gas gun division, but I honestly think you should shoot a season with it, not just one match. (or at least shoot a regional with it.)

You have local matches, regional matches and then the Nationals with a regional director for each area to help oversea everything. The regional directors would be that areas coordinator to help delegate so those local matches receive the proper attention. In my thinking the National Match, would not add to the overall score but be the winners take all. Reset the year. (Other National Matches would qualify, feed the overall score but not the same as the TRL National Matches)

That is where my head has progressed on this...

 

[turbo54]

I don't see how you can effectively chrono shooters.

Anyone could easily down-load some "chrono" cartridges, and keep them ready for their turn on the chrono.

A "surprise" chrono inspection to address this?

Yeah, try catching ~75 shooters by surprise with the chrono....

Another thing:

All the top teams will split up into the different classifications, and GAP/Surgeon/etc/etc will dominate all, just as they currently do.

Net effect: zero

 

[c ward]

Getting chrono ammo is easy , you pull ammo from the shooters mags right before or after shooting a stage and then have them come to the chrono area to shoot it

 

[Lowlight]

As Pete C posted, you can do it on a regional level easily as well you can do it in a stage.

We have done it before, you have a stage that has a chromo... how about a loophole shot ? With a Chrono on the other side ?

On the local level its not as big a deal, but regionally and nationally this is very, very simple. More than enough time.

I love guys who only see problems, offer no solutions and try to shoot down everything as if their line of thinking is the only way.

How about this too, if you think you can cheat your way through something to a win, do you really think you won't get caught ?

 

[Lowlight]

LOL,

Like I said this morning, "Later the Tom Hanks Tribute -- I don' t get it" .

Right on cue

 

[lash]

Turbo54, you may be right. Probably even. However, that does not change the pluses of the proposed system. Why should I care if the top shooters win in a national match. I would hope so, or something is broken. The goal is not to make it so that a novice will trounce a pro in head-to-head competition. The goal is to make the sport more accessible at the local level, by offering a way that people at all levels can get an idea of how they compare to others not in their region. Many may never get that chance to compete in a national match, but they can get the chance to see how they stack up against others like them.

If I've I interpreted this wrong, feel free to correct me.

 

[turbo54]

OK, so long as I'm being vilified as the "poo-pooer" of the idea, I'll share more criticisms:

Is a 7mm Berger 180 hybrid @ ~2815fps in ANY way comparable to the .308 175smk @ ~2650-2700 so many newbies use?

No.

I agree with the fundamental concept you're proposing; ultimately aimed at making the tacmatches more inviting to newer shooters. I don't think a velocity cutoff threshold addresses it. It is a little better than nothing, but I estimate not by much.

Frankly, I think the NRA F class approach of 223/308 in one group, and everything else in another is a more logical solution.

This sorta works because most all newbies are running a 223/308 anyway. Trouble is nothing stopping the top teams from sending their shooters in with full-tilt custom 308s running 155s @ 3000fps.

Either way you slice it, if you have prizes available for the low performance equipment shooters, top shooters will pull their 308s out of the safe, swoop in and dominate. If you remove prizes from the 308 class, no one will shoot in it.

 

[Lowlight]

Well maybe you should read the F /TR thread about them dividing things up... again.

No a 7mm going 2815fps is better, of course, but you can run a 155gr at 2800 and it's much closer. The idea is NOT To level the field completely but to stop it from being a complete blow out. And a 155gr at 3000fps is in the Open Class... So it would have to compete against 6mm at 3100fps.

Comparing the windage on a 7mm at 2800fps is 1.7 where the same shot with a 155 @ 2800 is 2.4, not a monster advantage like the completely open competition we have now.

Please go back and read this thread from the beginning as you simply rehashing the same old bullshit we have already discussed.

Please read the goals, which is not to even out the field but to help build confidence and level when compared to a Open Field.

 

[MikeeBooshay]

Frank,

I like the idea - more matches are better, and some consistency without snuffing the MD creativity is a good thing.

One idea you might use from another discipline, regarding qualifer points, or points in general, would be something like the BR guys use. Every match is worth 75 points, regardless of the number attending, and prorated across all the finishers. The large National Match, has unlimited points, one point per competitor. So, if for example, you have a match with 100 poeple, winner gets 75 points, here is a clip I borrowed from the NBRSA website:


For matches 1 thru 4 each competitor will be awarded one (1) point for each competitor he/she beats in the LV and HV Grands up to a maximum of seventy five (75) points per grand in matches having at least seventy five (75) competitors. Should a match have fewer than seventy five (75) competitors the actual amount of competitors will be used as the maximum points awarded. The competitors LV and HV grand point totals will be added together to establish their awarded points for that match.

"For the NBRSA Nationals each competitor will be awarded one (1) point for each competitor he/she beats in the LV and HV grands regardless of the number of competitors. There are no point restrictions for this match. The competitors LV and HV point totals will be added together to establish their awarded points for the match.

In all qualifying matches the number of competitors in each grand shall be determined by the largest quanity of shooters to shoot at least one (1) group in either yardage of that class.

Final qualifying point totals will be established by using each competitors best three (3) of five (5) qualifying match totals. Based on this system attendance at the NBRSA Nationals will almost be imperative."

You could adapt this system, and use the CUP results as the "National" final event, with unlimited points depending on the number of competitors. I'm not that creative, I like borrowing good ideas.....

As a more casual competitor, I would also offer the following feedback. Figure out how to penalize the team aspect of the comp - especially for a newbie in the sub 2800 fps class, seeing a group of guys sharing come-ups, wind calls and shooting a common round/load, pretty much sends the signal that you aren't going to be competitive without your own group, and new guys won't have that. Squading these teams such that those guys shoot together, also sends the same message. In the +2800 fps class, sure, everything goes, but if we want to grow, make it easy for the new guy to see that improving his ability, not his gaming skills, is the best path to success.

I did shoot a few comps a couple years ago with a semi 308, it was fun! Won top 308 a couple times, could have won top overall once, except a mental error on my part ( left 1100 yard dope on at 200-400 timed leg, shot over it all! ). Point is, it is possible to have fun, do something a bit different, and move the sport forward. Leaving things open enough to allow that, is a great idea, the gas gun was an advantage on some stages, a hindrance on others, BUT IT MADE ME THINK AND BECOME A BETTER SHOOTER! Maybe have a event something like "any top loading, no DBM, max 10x scoped rifle" match, give extra % for shooting 308 or 30.06, and not for points, but just because?

I'll volunteer to RO for your next Cup btw, and pay my OWN hotel!

 

[turbo54]

Please read the goals, which is not to even out the field but to help build confidence and level when compared to a Open Field.

Explain to us how you propose to:

A. Entice newbies to come shoot these matches

...while...

B. Discouraging good shooters from "hanging back" in the low performance class and kicking ass.

Serious question!

 

[lash]

Turbo54, I still think that you are missing the point by focusing on large regional and national level matches. Do you think that a team will bother with a local match in Central Florida, or in many other places where there is a current lack of focus on precision rifle? I doubt it.

Do you think they will bother with sandbagging a small match or powering down just to win small potatoes in Alabama? Not likely.

The pros still want to beat other pros and want to compete against the best available in their region. It's human nature.

Sure there may the ocassional schmuck who games the system for short term gain, but I can hardly see the thrill for a top shooter to dominate a few locals just for some swag. Most have too much integrity and pride even if there is some whining and moaning during tough matches.

Then let's get down to it. I'd be happy to shoot alongside a top shot if he/she decided to power down and shoot the limited class. Will he outshoot me? I would imagine so. Will I have the chance to learn and rub elbows with said "star". You betcha! Will I be upset if he wins the class? No. Think pro-am.

 

[Lowlight]

Clearly you have no interest in actually reading what has been discussed already.

I get it Tom Hanks, you don't get it. Great, there are plenty that do.

The enticement comes in many forms, from recruitment to promotion. How does any sport grow, because I can't think of any other shooting sport that has 1 class... Anything Goes, Wide Open Only ? Cause that is the current model for what we are doing. There is no division, no classification, just winner take all, the losers pay the bills.

So ask yourself how does F Class grow, how does IDPA grow, how about 3Gun ? They have classifications and division do they not ? Must be a ton of sandbaggers out there.

If you want to hang back and be known as the best marksman level Limited Shooter, more power to you. To think someone would purposely hang back over and over to win a limited division seem pretty weak to me. If I saw you coming up the ranks the second year in a row I would skew the prizes towards the other end, make it a cheap win.

Really I don't think you have an serious question in you. Cause if it's truly serious you must assume there are large contingent of cheaters out there -- Seriously.

 

[Lowlight]

Mike,

Thanks I like that and thinks it solves a big problem... make it 50 points because these are local to start, where any match has a max of 50 point possible and you get a bonus for winning. If less than 50 you get the actual number of shooters score. (like above.) You can then say, a regional is 75 points max and national 100... etc, I believe this is something to explore.

"teams"
It's definitely part of the intimidation factor people have echoed over and over. This is the hardest part... do you say, "a team is a team" and they can shoot individually but are still part of the team so overall they are not ranked individually, or do you leave it alone. While the whole team concept has caused a problem for Precision Rifle there are some good points to having them. The biggest problem is, the bullet does not go were we want it to. We have wind, we have UKD, we have other factors that other disciplines don't have. So them sharing data changes the dynamic of an individual match for sure. The no coaching on the clock rule the PRS uses is sort of after the fact, if a team mate shots the stage before you and passes the info before your turn to shoot, the information sharing is still legal. It's an issue. I think having the teams there raises the bar and we are not looking to hand anything to anyone, we are just trying to balance the field, even just a little. Nobody is looking to completely homogenize this, but at least show them the goal post is not that far away.

I have been looking at others as well, because I see no reason to reinvent the wheel, and this might be a nice way to do because each match is actually very unique.

 

[gugubica]

Frank, please don't take this as an attack, but I think your vision may be getting ahead of your goals. You have a great idea, but, what are you wanting to accomplish? Is it goal oriented or "better than PRS, cause them wouldn't work with me" oriented?

What are your goals...attract more shooters, make big matches less intimidating for newer shooters, more matches, better quality matches, get more attention for the sport, make it more fun, less competitive, more fair, more sponsors, etc?

Some may not necessarily be attainable together and some might even discourage others.

The only observation I would share is that if the market gets flooded with matches on all levels, sponsors are going to get dried out pretty quickly.

Rob, not an attack, but I just want to clarify; I understand where you are coming from, I know a few guys that have backed off of the PRS because it stopped being as fun. They got so competitive and felt like they had to shoot every match...got burned out. A lot of that is a personal thing though, not a series or sanctioning body thing. People see your sponsor list and are a little confused about the "PRS made it no fun" stance. Sponsors are not going to throw money or products to shooters unless they have something to offer, usually lots of wins or high placements, this makes it competitive if you like it or not. They want people to see good shooters and think...Huh, he shoots Hornady ammo and is awesome, maybe I should try it. Again, not attacking, I know you are sincere, it just may not come off that way to guys who have not shot with you.

So, what is the answer to a "fun" match? Don't keep score? Don't have prizes or cash payouts?

 

[oathkeeper]

I'm nowhere near the level anybody that has posted in this debate but I have an idea.

When there is a point system set up you can have a pro and amateur class based on a cut off of points.

Think of it like division I and II. You can dominate in division II for so long before you move up to division I. That way once somebody has enough experience and skill they are forced to move up.

You can compete right along side someone at a different level but not be scored against each other.

Another post tracked by the government.

 

[redirt78]

I like the idea of being able to come here and see a sub forum that looks something like:

Southeastern region match locations

Southeastern region match scores

Southeastern region match discussion/suggestions

Ect

Ect

Make it easy to follow, talk about, get new people into it. Hell, I might have to work harder on getting better quicker so I'd want to come to one. I used to fish a few professional inshore tours and I just don't like showing up unprepared so I have a ways to go before I feel like I'm ready for a match.

 

[Lowlight]

Rob was one of the originals, they called him the Anchor, cause he was strong and consistent. he's been around the block a long time.

Yes the sponsors are drying up, and being tighter with their money because too many have their hand out. From matches that are the shooting the same 50 guys in a circle to the individuals who see the Nascar shirts and want theirs. That is clearly happening already. I talk to several of the site sponsors about this and they are getting hit up a lot. Many of them do ask for recommendations on which matches to support.

The idea is to grow the sport and support the local matches as well as using the site as central ranking service. Right now it's all outlaw, even with the PRS in place. There are lot of people who feel turned off by them. This is growing. The clique is strong, and while some see the team aspect and want a piece of that pie, others see it as a negative. No matter how people argue it, it's a Ponzi scheme that let's the bottom 80 feed the top 20. That is bit harsh, I know and I do have some friend deeply involved but its the truth. Look at the matches and the scores, it's the same group of guys competing against each other. Just a small handful, one week George, next week Dustin, week later George, week after Francis, following week Wade. No change in the last 2 years.

Consider this, when SH left TX and moved our match West, less than 10% of the guys who shot the SHC at Rifles Only attended the Cup in WY. At the same time, you had the PRS guys leave and work their angle, very few of them shot the Cup. Maybe 20. So here our last match had 125 shooters. you have K&M shooting close to 100, you have Rifles Only adding another 75, with the cross over between 25 and 50 guys in the Southern Region. Then you have the Washington crowd, the California based guys, Arizona, Vegas, and the East Coast, both North and South. All wanting to do the same thing, shoot a tactical rifle match. While they are all similar they are all just different enough to make it unique. There is nothing bonding these groups... The PRS wants to feed their effort, the Outlaws are feeding theirs, we have our, with a host of smaller matches fighting for what is left over.

When I spoke to the PRS guys about using the Cup, (still nobody acknowledges this was a PRS Event, why, they never promoted it) I asked for two things, 1. I said we need to work together to support each other matches with help. My biggest concern was qualified ROs and I wanted to use the PRS pool of shooters to work towards this. 2. I wanted them to bring guys to the match from the TX / OK area. With that small percentage of old SHC Shooters following me West I knew there was a big pool who consistently shot the match before not shooting it anymore. At the end of the day, there was no PRS Promotion, and zero help... not a single assist. So honestly what the point ? If you can't stand behind a match that was wide open, we had NO LIMIT on the number of shooters, we could have easily shot 200 guys. So what are THEY looking to accomplish if you cant give even the basic support to a match of this size.

Scoring is all over the board, some have a 100 point system, we use a 1 point, K&M a variation of the 1 point, using 1,2,3. Its just an Open Class system with anything goes mentality. I find it amazing nobody is questioning a group designed as series that refuses to support the system. They don't want coaching, they want an alibi system, we need the score to see were WE stand, but as far as anything else, you're on your own. And people pay for that...

People say, "oh you swing a big axe" or "oh he's an asshole, he's all about himself, etc" but not a single one of you can point to something I work at that is just about ME. I am happy to work with anyone to achieve a common goal. I saw the train up at the Cup was not working how I wanted, and I immediately said before the weekend was over, This needs to be open and free, let everyone shoot a day before however they want. We need 50 targets up and let people have this for nothing. I didn't like the 100 point scoring I said 1 point per hit, why guys asked how come a UKD at 630 yards was worth 100 points and a 1st round hit at 1000 was worth 20 points... hey let's change that. I treat people like they treat me, and walk the talk. I don't hide behind my keyboard and I am out on the range, I will walk into a competition and perform in the Top 15, if not the Top 10. I am not some guy who doesn't practice what i preach.

Which is why it's strange i get my motives questioned, but not the other guy.

Talked tonight with a group, hey let's support each other, let's standardize this, let's not level the field but balance it bit so it's not Wide Open Only... so why question my motives. Cause I speak my mind and call it like I see it ?

 

[gugubica]

Rob was one of the originals, they called him the Anchor, cause he was strong and consistent. he's been around the block a long time.

I know that, I was not challenging that at all. I like Rob, he is a genuinely great guy. I don't say that to kiss his ass, he really is.

For the record, I am not questioning your motives what so ever. I understand why you might be a little defencive, people think you are an ass. I don't. I know that you are an influential, strong willed individual. I also know and acknowledge what you have done for this community and this sport. A lot of where we are today is due to you and this site. I also know that you didn't for a long time, and maybe still don't make a dime from it.

I don't think I am alone in this...I shot the Cup a handful of times at RO, it was the best match available. I have talked with Ray and know he knows his shit, between you and CD, I know the Cup in its current location will be a bad ass match. I have not shot it yet for one reason only...geography. It is just to far out of my range. I would very much like to. A lot of the 80% you referred to are probably in the same camp. I don't think there was much "picking sides" in the split.

 

[gugubica]

And, for better or worse, PRS doesn't really promote any matches, per se. I did a PRS match last year as well.

I rewarded and thanked people who stepped up to RO or MD a match with a 24 hours head start on registrations. I hoped more MDs would do that to encourage more ROs throughout the year. If everyone did that, more people would want to help out so they could get a head start on getting into matches.

The hardest part of running a match is getting enough ROs...that and the time, and the expense, and the...

 

[Lowlight]

I raffled off a Surgeon Build to my ROs, a non-practicing PRS member won and the competing PRS members complained I gave a Rifle to an RO.

 

[AtOne]

I'd still like to see scoring as three parts.

Regional for the state and local matches, totals from these get you to the regional semi finals.
National which I kind of view as the big matches either put on or sponsored by the TRL throughout the year including the Finale.
Team which uses the top combined scores of all team members, this can be in both the Regional and National standings, that way local clubs can have a team in the regional standings even if they don't shoot at the national level.

Still don't want to see different categories separated by skill level or any handicaps added.

Team shooters are a plus to our sport, I had the opportunity to shoot my second match I'd been to a few years back and had Scott P, Francis, Jason K and the Nor Cal guys in my squad for 2 days and they we're all awesome to hang out with and learn from while I was out there competing with them. It was and still is a very positive memory for me and made me realize how important it is to have the guys in the jerseys out there shooting side by side with the new competitors.

 

[Gil P.]

I really like your ideas, however there are a couple of things in your original post I think could be improved:

1) "We will create another Sniper’s Hide Match as an earned Event..." I think that having any "earned events" would not be a very good idea, because it would turn a lot of people off from participating in such a match. I think anyone should be allowed to compete in any match. A novice might want to test his skills in a high level match so that he/she can get an idea of what tot practice. We should have a level system (from 1-5 as an example); the higher the number, the more difficult the match. The match difficulty can be determined by the size of the targets and their distance. This difficulty should be listed whenever a match is posted. This would be great for new and experienced shooters to know what they are signing up for, because as we all know, traveling is not cheap. The more difficult the match, the more points its worth. This way, you cant have people doing only level one matches and being ranked number one. Shooters will see their progression from a level 1 shooter on up. Of course we would need to make sure that there is quality control between all levels of matches, so that they are all getting good funding and sponsors.

2) As posted by others above, getting points for paying for training that the range offers can be seen as unfair. The men/women with more money will have an unfair advantage. I wonder what other incentives can be offered to get people to pay and participate in these trainings...

3) This is more of a question because I really have no idea how all the financial stuff works but; I think it would be best to charge a monthly fee to use the TRL website. As long as there is a promise that all of the funds gained from the site will be used to help fund more matches. If you can get enough members, I cant imagine that many ranges would have reservations about hosting a TRL match if we were helping them pay for the expenses. Something like 10 dollars a month doesnt sound unreasonable, especially if the TRL becomes prominent.