As 2014 Approaches does this need to be addressed ?

[Lowlight]

Oh well... it would not be the first time I have made a broad stroke, and by my count, since 2001, it's me 13 the other guys 0.

The scoring is an after the fact issue, not a match issue. It's how to rank the members, not score the match.

Right now if you look, the ranking currently employed by the PRS leans towards matches that score using the 100 point system as opposed to the 1 point system.

This is a combination of score, plus match offset like they do at the local level in golf, the courses are ranked by difficulty.

 

[verdugo60]

I gotta say, I am excited for this development. It will be a year or two at least before I could afford the time off and cash to shoot several PRS matches, much less the finale.

With this local format being on the Hide, I can shoot more local matches starting in the 2014 season and then see how I rank in my area. I can also track progress and moving up right here on the Hide. I will also be more excited to try out the Hide Cup for a bigger stage and prize table (if in WY or CO again), and know that I can shoot my current precision rifle and not have to feel like I will not be able to have a chance in wind vs a 3000 + fps 6mm or 6.5.

I think it's good to rank local matches in the proposed points system and see the speed cut-off as a simple solution, for now. If people start gaming that, eventually maybe we can add a "BC x velocity" rule or something. Honor system is what we go off at CRC, "heavy" rifle class vs "light", etc.

I like the idea of running a gas gun for at least 2-3 matches to be in that division. Would be fun to switch it up and compete with different equipment sometimes.

In short, I will be pumped to get more involved in competition locally and I think this system will aid that increased involvement for many shooters who may have dabbled in, or want to get started in, local matches. Would be awesome if it spawned more matches locally all over the country too, I know it's a ton of work to get one going for MD's and is probably a bit intimidating too.

 

[nicko]

Because they become pro when they reach the top 50 . Any 2013 pro on the standings were previously semi pro . There is also a semi pro standing for the "up and coming shooter" like myself..

 

[Lowlight]

[MENTION=56175]nicko[/MENTION],

well then, you're on your way... you won't have to sweat hanging out here, you have it all figured out.

When the same 200 guys are shooting the same 10 matches and getting beat by the same 20 people, maybe it will click.

 

[Lowlight]

Understand this was part of the problem with the SHC back when it was in TX... and I readily admit this.

We were shooting the same 60 people, maybe 10 guys rotated in and out at any given time.

People were seeing the same guys win over and over, (like the Terry Cross reign) and saying,

1. it was too hard to get in
2. It was the same people
3. we know we won't come close to the top 10 so why bother

it's was the beginning of the end for that stage of the match. Moving it here, we are shooting more people than every and not the same people over and over again you're seeing a mix of guys from all over in the Top 10.

Just like people noticing how these PRS matches are more more turning to "Invitationals" ... that is being noticed already.

 

[-Snyper-]

I keep hearing all this talk about LOCAL matches. Who's to say these local ranges are even going to jump on board with this. Now my definition of a local match may be totally different from yours Frank, and I'm sure it is, but how do you propose getting them on board?

 

[Disturbed]

If Snipershide offers an easy scoring system and the score cards that can be downloaded; that will reduce what a match director needs to do himself. People will adopt it.

The problem is the easy scoring system. So many variable are in play. Range, wind, shooting position, target size, etc,

To me, shooting a 1 MOA sized target at 600 prone is much easier than a 2.5 MOA target that you need to shoot while standing behind a barricade at 300

 

[MikeeBooshay]

Understand this was part of the problem with the SHC back when it was in TX... and I readily admit this.

We were shooting the same 60 people, maybe 10 guys rotated in and out at any given time.

People were seeing the same guys win over and over, (like the Terry Cross reign) and saying,

1. it was too hard to get in
2. It was the same people
3. we know we won't come close to the top 10 so why bother

it's was the beginning of the end for that stage of the match. Moving it here, we are shooting more people than every and not the same people over and over again you're seeing a mix of guys from all over in the Top 10.

Just like people noticing how these PRS matches are more more turning to "Invitationals" ... that is being noticed already.

I will readily admit, that is a large part of why I am shooting less Precision Rifle matches, at least the"big" ones, and more BR stuff. That and I am approaching the age where I ain't as rugged as I think I am! It's not as much fun when:

1. Entry is limited to the "select few".
2. "select few" has a hand in course layout.
3. Blatant team shooting - sharing dope, wind holds, strategy, during the event, again among the "select few".

I'll be real clear on this point, I am not taking away or disrespecting anyone who did well as part of this in those events, you shot well and did well. What I am saying is that it is not a way to grow the sport and make it FUN ( remember fun, we all started this for fun didn't we?) for everyone, particularly for the new guys. Yes there is help for the new guys, but, the other stuff, is kind of blatant, and a newbie would have to be blind not to see and be negatively impressed by it.

I would also like to thank Rob for his comments here, much on the money. Also, FWIW, he was very helpful and considerate to me the first time I ever met him, at the first match I shot. That man walks his talk.

 

[c ward]

Every body keeps missing the part about the match's will still be run and scored the way they are now with the rules they all ready operate under .

What Frank is proposing is an independent rating system that the SHOOTER submits their scores to . The guidelines he is proposing are for this rating system and have nothing to do with the match itself .

The only match that I've read that he wants to tie in is the cup and that is already his any how .

 

[ctressler]

In response to the question, “The question becomes is the series concept doing enough to promote and propel the precision rifle sport?” I ask, how much more can this sport grow, and isn’t it growing fast enough?

We need to realize that not all people that shoot guns want to compete, and not all competitors want to take the time or can take the time to get good hard dope out the 1100 yards. Precision rifle matches are not for everyone and I don’t think we should dumb down major matches to try and appeal to more shooters. When the PRS started I liked the idea of being able to rank myself against the best shooters in the nation, I wanted to see where I stood. Major matches are not the place for a new shooter to develop skills, monthly club matches and practicing on your own are the keys to getting more comfortable with major matches

There is no such thing as a PRS match. There are however matches that a shooter can participate in that meet the PRS requirements, which then allow the shooter to obtain PRS points. The PRS was never about an administrative oversight and it is not about limiting who can shoot in a match. The PRS has no control over who the match director allows into the match.

I don’t see how it is the fault of the PRS if a new shooter “is still very intimidated to throw their hat in the ring” and shoot with the big boys. The PRS has not changed major matches so if a new shooter is still intimidated in a major match it is not the fault of the PRS. New shooters should find local matches to shoot in, gain confidence and then jump to the next level. Should we not have Major League Baseball because it might intimidate a Little League player? If a guy thinks there is a better way to do the series, then do it and let’s see what happens. Seems to me that a question was asked and anybody that doesn’t agree with Frank is just wrong.

It’s right to call the top shooters in the nation a clique, because they are. If a guy wants to be part of that clique go practice. A shooter is not going to get better at shooting by spending countless hours on internet forums. If this game was easy everyone would be doing it.

I think one of the choke points to growth in this sport is finding enough people that want to work a match instead of shoot it. When match directors are filling up rosters for events, I like that some take into account that a shooter helped RO his own clubs major match.

As far as the gear race and divisions, hasn’t it already been proved that ultimately it’s the Indian not the Arrow?

 

[Bluejazz]

After reading this entire thread, I will admit to being somewhat confused.
As a new comp shooter,( not a novice shooter, as I have taken deer out to 840+yards)
I will trust in Lowlight agenda. I hope he is successful in getting it done. Not interested in being the big dog, just want to have fun shooting, learning, and anything that promotes more matches in the Midwest area is a plus for me.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Just like people noticing how these PRS matches are more more turning to "Invitationals" ... that is being noticed already.

I will admit that there are certain people like Terry Cross and George Gardner (and the likes of them) that I will always reserve slots for because they have done more than I can ever do to help this community and sport.

Popular events have always had the problem of too many people wanting to shoot and not enough space.

This year I plan on doing a invitational/lottery system that will be transparent to all. Probably around a 50% split between 80 slots.

 

[Lowlight]

Leave it a PRS member to defend the series while in the same breathe telling new shooters they have no business showing up to any big events. Cause back before this we all started with both feet in.

 

[ctressler]

On a side note... I noticed the PRS standings...if I am reading it right, the Top 48 or so are all PROs... so much for recognizing the up and coming shooter.

Nascar Shirts matter...

What is your definition of a PRO? I'm on that list and I don't consider myself a PRO and I'm not a sponsored shooter.

The PRS uses the term PRO to indicate someone that has finished in the top 50 for the year. What are you going to call the top 50 shooters in your series?

 

[ctressler]

Competition breeds excellence.

Vu

^^^^^^^

 

[Zak Smith]

My take on the "same 20 guys winning everything" is that this is not going to occur when there is more variety match to match in terms of challenges. I'm talking about larger matches, here. If we all wanted to shoot the same stages we could do standards like USPSA or IDPA on square ranges. All matches are not created equal like Frank said, but another aspect is that many aren't, and shouldn't be, even on the same scale. By that I mean they are qualitatively different in the skills they test. In the superset of matches discussed on this site, we have everything from dot shooting and prone square-range matches up to multi-gun to adventure races that just happen to include sniper guns, and everything in between. The same guys are never going to win across that whole spectrum.

 

[nicko]

Thats why its called a competition at a professional level if you want to start a series to make new shooters feel good about losing by all means do... no body is bashing you for doing that i just dont see what the point is for bashing the prs for having successful shooters. i had not one issue getting in any matches this year and im a nobody. its one thing to be shooting for fun like my father for a example shot the same matches as my self and he is not a prs member. he shoots for fun and now he has a interest in joining next year im not opposed to your ideas I'm just not understanding why you have to be bashing the series. your wrong frank i dont have it all figured out but your right about one thing i dont have to sweat about hanging out here. and when i keep getting beat by the same 20 guys maybe i should step up my game.

 

[ctressler]

TRL
Team Division
Earned Event
Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert


PRS
Club Series
Finale
Semi-Pro, Pro

Seems like the same things to me

 

[Lowlight]

You have no issue getting into PRS matches because I was told by several they are not selling out...

Tell me how the PRS has improved the sport when, like Rob01 and myself stated several times, prior to the PRS all these matches were selling out.

Nobody said a word about dumbing them down or lower the quality of the event. However just like the PRS members bitched about the SHC prize handout, the idea is to NOT only reward the Top 10, or 20, but to spread it out so everyone is working off a balanced field. It's not US Pros against the New Guys and splitting off into Cliques to make sure you can justify your position by placing. By assisting each other at the detriment of the new shooters. Clearly you're not listen to the real world gripes about what the PRS has created, the negative atmosphere... It's the same guys running in the same circle, rewarding the same people with no excuses for doing and justifying it by saying they are the best.

it used to be, there was only big matches, if you wanted to shoot precision tactical rifle you have about 5 places across the US. We have added more, but now what you are saying (PRS members) is you don't rate to attend, this is our domain. Originally the PRS was saying, "our members get to the front of the line in these sold out matches", if you wanted the PRS Label, we get preferred treatment. Now that is gone because you pushed people away. The first year, several of PRS members were not allowed to shoot any events they applied for, they were all filled up before the match registration opened. Now ... This is the primary reason I did say I wanted an event that had NO LIMIT, because the limits hurt the sport, which shows.

You guys can make excuses all you want, Rob, myself, a couple other have been doing this very thing since 2001, some like Tony G since before that... if you think you are doing it right now, we are telling you are you dead wrong. Don' t like me, don't want to take our word for it, doesn't change the facts. Why do you think you are seeing changes in the PRS, because the original model didn't work.

Heck I remember when the AZ crew couldn't find the Top 20 with a seeing eye dog, along comes the PRS and now their local match is a "National Match" because guys came from TX to shoot it... Big deal... that happens every month in some places. It's not to say you haven't improved your competitions, you absolutely have, and I have supported them. But it was not that long ago, YOU ALL were the new Kids on the block. You fought and stood alongside everyone else when you could and now look. But you are happy to deny others that as having NO BUSINESS shooting a BIG MATCH.

Take the blinders off, see what people are saying, ask yourself how comes these matches are not selling out, and why you always see the same 20 names over and over. They created a system and they are dictating how it will operate.

There are no rules, except, no coaching, must let members dispute their score, no team matches, no pistol, (oh wait back to pistols) No train up prior to the event, priority seating at the event, and on, and on, and on... You all act like nobody is paying attention to this stuff.

 

[Lowlight]

I will tell you this, a sponsor spoke to me today and he wanted to know how to spend his money and he wanted to reach, and shooters, and host of other things.

If the same guys are shooting the same event, do you think he wants to support that. The PRS says, we want a prize for 15 competitions, and I guarantee at least 3 of the same guys will have at least 2 of those prizes for themselves. So instead of 15 different people it will be spread among the same 6 people. Bet me...

You all are happy to keep giving to the same people, its clear read the SHC after action report... you feel entitled to it. And put that in writing, think I am kidding head to your google docs and read it for yourselves.

The same guys, placing 5 slots apart in the same events over and over... that is gonna build the sport. please ...

 

[Lowlight]

TRL
Team Division
Earned Event
Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert


PRS
Club Series
Finale
Semi-Pro, Pro

Seems like the same things to me

Not even close... The SHC can host 200 shooters, I can guarantee the Top 20 in every region a slot, plus open it up to anyone else who wants to do that... can you say the same thing genius ?

I also noted our Team Division is a side bet, and not an Actual Division> I understand there are Teams and they should be recognized, but I also said the Team Members will be scored as individuals ... go back and read it.

The real split is the Velocity, because like every other shooter sport they recognize the equipment matter..> The Indian not the Arrow, are you Fucking Shitting me, then why aren't they shooting 308 and why was the Top 20 shooting 6mm... If you are allowed to shoot the Finale, I challenge you to shoot a 308... Dare Ya !

You have to quality for the 3 others, so you can compare your score and your improvement against someone with the same skill set. It's not just, we're calling you a Pro, or Expert you have to earn it. Same thing found in many other shooting sports. It's not a throw around term. In the PRS quantity equals high score... you shoot more matches, you score higher... so a person can buy a PRO Rating by showing up more often then the next guy... Really classy.

 

[ctressler]

In the PRS quantity equals high score... you shoot more matches, you score higher... so a person can buy a PRO Rating by showing up more often then the next guy... Really classy.

Your wrong about this, only your top three scores count no matter how many matches you've shot in.

But it was not that long ago, YOU ALL were the new Kids on the block. You fought and stood alongside everyone else when you could and now look. But you are happy to deny others that as having NO BUSINESS shooting a BIG MATCH.

My point is that if a person is uncomfortable shooting in a big match they should shoot in local matches, but twist it how you want.

 

[Lowlight]

It's not a twist, it's the wrong attitude...

When people ask, "can we come and watch, because we might want to get into it" the answer was always, no come and shoot it ...

You're an elitist tool, who thinks only the chosen people deserve to shoot the big matches.

Local Matches do not mimic what is happening in the big matches, there are distance issues, there are course of fire issues, do you really want me to list more. Not everyone has a local Club with 1100 yards. Some are lucky to 300 yards.

You can't learn unless you do it, and being push aside by the guys who feel above the new shooter is not the way it was done, which why a lot of the original want nothing to do with it.

 

[Lowlight]

So if I can only afford to shoot 3 matches, I better score high enough, because the guys that can shoot 7 matches have twice the chance to score higher... No, I am completely wrong.

 

[Rob01]

Just as an example you could host around Reno (drawing northern and central California); Vegas (drawing SOCAL and Arizona; western Washington, Idaho, Utah, Wyoming or Montana; Kansas-Nebraska or Dakotas; and possibly Missouri; maybe ranch land in oklahoma or Texas -- all culminating somewhere centrally-located like Utah, Colorado, or Raton (someplace guys can fly into on a commercial flight).

And what about the northeast?

 

[Lowlight]

Sinister,

The goal is to support the local and regional section. We are not looking to focus on the West, although we have a lot of matches to work with, they do vary. But understand I have been contacted by people from the East as well. Because these matches are so independent, as Zak would say, "Outlaw" the idea is not to homogenize the Tactical Rifle Matches, but to help guide them towards some proven standards.

in the beginning it will focus on a few smaller things.

1. The TRL member will be the driving force. He can choose to shoot locally, Regionally, or Nationally and feed into the system which will rank his progress. Through the individual and through this site, we then bring in the Match directors on two levels.

2. Match Directors, on both the local & regional scale. This where our experience works to support their efforts. If someone is looking to put on a local match, we have resources to support them, like our "Match in Box" which is just a Target and series of potential courses of fire to use them. However if they already have something in place we don't have any rules, but we can help adjust them in order to fall more in line with the standards the Big Matches are doing. It can be as simple as adjusting the scoring from 100 points per stage to 1 point per hit and eliminate the problem of someone shooting a 600 yard UKD and scoring a 100 points vs shooting 5 shots at 800 yards and getting 20 points per hit. From there on the local level working with the individual to rank them, and the match director to help them, you have the Regionals. The only thing we would look for on the Local level is a qualify stage, most likely shot at 100 yards to help rank the shooters. This qualify standard will change, and will be something they can use as a stage, plus it helps rank the individual.

3. The Regional level so where we get more involved. By having a Regional Director, he can coordinate these local matches. We would still use the site to promote the local matches, but it would be at the regional level it would then move into the Divisions and have the Velocity Split. The Regionals can be 2 to 3 times a year and from there we would funnel the shooters to matches like those hosted by Sniper's Hide. The grand finale, big National Event, what ever it wants to be called. The Regionals would chronograph the shooter's system, would classify them or at best confirm their classifications. It would also be here SH would help promote and feed the sponsorships. Locally the goal is to go regionally which then goes nationally.

Currently everything is open, you have Teams working openly alongside individuals, who are competing against equipment that is best suited for a Hot Rod Class. There is no division, it's just winner takes all and when Johnny Individual shoots against the Team Yankee onslaught there is no way he will place. He sees the team working together, the gear working against him and becomes disillusioned in the process. On top of that, you have matches that only invite their team buddies and the cliques so they can say, hey we had Team Rocket win our match, we are awesome. Sponsored shooters can afford to attend more matches, and that pushes out the small guys because they only want the big shots at their match.

Cutthroat is absolutely right, while it may have calmed down. There was widespread open cheating taking place. Texting Facebook, Teams helping teammates cause that is what they do, all to justify being on the team. You have to secure you place in line and people will do anything when it comes to that. It was one of the reasons during the CUP we put everyone in a Staging area and said, go ahead all work together and help each other build range cards, locate targets, (not all were visible) this way it removed the need to go back later and tell your buddy. What we found was, people spent all day scouting the locations so we had to say, you could only go to your next segment 1 hour prior to your call, and nothing else. Otherwise they spend the day scouting the entire place.

Tactical matches are unique in that there is no standard right now. Sure most will shoot a host of similar events with minor twists, but overall, the goal is to not only hit the target but to solve a problem. I don't want to change that, I want to encourage creativeness in the Match Director. That creativeness maybe in the form of access to ideas, Guidelines for Best Practices, a better target to use when their square range can't put steel out. This is why I am looking for way to compare the individual when the match varies from location to location. I want a number that scores the shooter and ranks the match too, because they are not all created equal. You have our match which is all UKD, or the others which are KD that have booklets explaining the stage so there is no surprise. (I like the booklet nothing wrong with that)

But the biggest thing I see is the equipment that has made it into the matches, the teams that work together alongside the individual, the ability to manipulate the system to work in your favor. This is what I would like to change.

 

[Rob01]

I understand that but alot of those people like to shoot too and keeping matches in the south and west was one of the complaints back when the PRS started. TX and OK guys could drive to many matches without even thinking about a plane ticket. Peacemaker NTC might be a place for a match but you can't forget about the Northeast like everyone else does.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Rob,

I don't think anyone is forgetting you guys out there, you're just kinda fucked like we are. Who else on the west coast puts on monthly events or a TBRC level event? The Voight/SF event this year was the first real quality event we had out here besides ours. I hope more pop up in CA, but I won't be holding my breath.

The SoCal guys head up here to shoot our matches, we drive to Vegas to shoot theirs. No way to compare your area and CA to OK and TX. They got a lot of open land and a gun friendly environment out there. Their AO is just prime for these type of events.

 

[Rob01]

Yeah Vu I understand all that but you guys have much more up your way and when I brought this up back when the PRS was coming around I was told to basically run my own match or shut up. Well i don't have the location, time or desire to run a match and I say that openly. I was attacked last time like I was an asshole for saying that but not everyone wants to or can run a match. The PRS was made for south central and west shooters. Take a look down the PRS list of shooters and look at the locations they are from. You will see alot of TX, OK, LA, AZ and CA. Basically where the matches were. The whole PRS thing forgot the northeast or wrote us off. New England itself basically has nothing for an arena but down in PA, MD and WV there are places with venues. Hopefully they will be brought into the fold under Frank's plan. I was bring this up to Sinister because as you saw he did like the PRS and totally forgot us.

 

[Rob01]

Fargo puts on some good matches on PA and they just had the first one down at Peacemaker in WV and I know MD does some matches too. None on any federal land or bases. I think there are some in VA too.

You might not have intentionally forgot the northeast but you could have mentioned it and the need for possible spots. Not even putting it on the table is basically the same as ignoring it. Yes we don't have all the land but I know we have a lot of shooters.

 

[steve123]

Just a suggestion but here's a simple formula that might be a solution for the 308 vs the hot rod cartridges debate.

I'll call it the "Ballistic Coefficient Muzzle Velocity Factor" - BCVF

It's easy....BC x FPS divided by 1000.

Cartridges equaling a rating of 1.5 or less go into what amounts to 308 or ballistically similar cartridges. Over 1.5 go into the ballistically superior cartridges category.

Examples...

223 with 77 grainers. .4BC x 2850 fps divided by 1000 = 1.14 BCVF

308 with 155 grainers at 2900 fps divided by 1000 = 1.334 BCVF
308 with 168 .47BC x 2700 fps divided by 1000 = 1.269 BCVF
308 with 175 .515BC x 2650 fps divided by 1000 = 1.364 BCVF

243 with 105 - .545 x 3150 = 1.71 BCVF
260 with 140 - .6 x 2800 = 1.68 BCVF
7-08 with 168 - .62 x 2750 = 1.705 BCVF

6.5 SAUM 140 .62 x 3100 = 1.922 BCVF

7 SAUM with 180 - .67 x 2900 =1.942 BCVF

 

[cypriss32]

Idea:

223/308 class

243/6.5/7mm08/30-06/284/280AI/260 (other NONE mag rounds)

6.5 SAUM, 7wsm, 7SAUM, 300wsm, 300SAUM, 300win, 7rem, (all mag rounds)

I think that is the best way to divide the sections. That was the 223/308 guys are fair matched, all none magnum guys have a pretty level playing field. The big ultra high velocity mag rounds are grouped together. When I see what one person in particular wrote on here, I understand where people are coming from when they stop shooting matches/or dont want to.

 

[Lowlight]

Steve that is really good metric but we don't want a 308 only (or 308 & under) category as a lot of new shooters are moving towards a 6.5 like the Creedmoor.

The idea is not to completely split it perfect, we want some room to move, that allows people to be competitive.

A 6.5 @ 2800 is 1.7 Mils at 1000 yards in a 10MPH wind

A 7-08 is 2.0 Mils @ 1000

and A 155gr at 2800 is 2.4 mils ... that is competitive and that is what we want. It doesn't hurt the new guy that bought a 6.5CM as his first rifle and it still makes it a race.

The idea is just to not have an Open Race where anything goes.

Every shooting sport has classes in this way, whether it is a Power Factor, Light vs Heavy, F/TR vs Opens, it's model that works and is seen across the board.

If it doesn't work out, which is gonna be tried out locally to see, I have talked with several people about this, we can always change it.

 

[Lowlight]

It was said today that NorCals monthly matches has no more 308 shooters in it...

So, there are guys that can run factory Creedmoor heavies and be under 2800s, as I know I have a few that are 2750fps or so... 260 & 6.5CM so you want to include them, so the shooters have a direction to move in.

We don't want it level, we want it Fair... The 308/223 only is old and played out. That is so 2003...

 

[verdugo60]

Steve, that's exactly what I was proposing earlier, because speed doesn't tell the whole story. Speed and BC does. You just backed it up well with the numbers. Maybe make the cutoff at 1.5 BCVF.

In locals it's on your honor to state your own BC and velocity, at regional and national you get chronoed and list your bullet and BC. Would that be too much Frank? I understand wanting to keep it simple.

Might not be needed the first year, but wouldn't be surprised to see guys running 7mm or 260 right at the edge of velocity requirements. Still won't give an automatic win but an advantage for sure over the guy that brings his three gun AR, shooting 77's at his first match, or the off the shelve 308 noob.

 

[Lowlight]

A 1.5 basically makes it a 308/223 classification and I don't want to do that...

Many are being steered towards a 6.5 and not all 6.5s are going over 2800fps especially 139-142. And really, I have never seen anyone show up with a AR like that, maybe locally they do, but not really anywhere else.

I think the speed limit I am proposing is a good start without boxing us into a 308 or less class.. cause people will just say, why do the math just call it a 308/223 division.

It has to be really, really simple to work, and give you flexibility that is inherent to a Precision Rifle match. This is one area I am pretty sure is right, and the feedback has been really positive.

If you have matches now with no 308s what is the point of having a 308 or below classification ?

 

[cypriss32]

Makes sense, just an idea.

 

[NorCal Vu]

It was said today that NorCals monthly matches has no more 308 shooters in it...

So, there are guys that can run factory Creedmoor heavies and be under 2800s, as I know I have a few that are 2750fps or so... 260 & 6.5CM so you want to include them, so the shooters have a direction to move in.

We don't want it level, we want it Fair... The 308/223 only is old and played out. That is so 2003...

Here are our club stats for 2012 and 2013. Scroll to the bottom of each month and you can see what people are running. Back in the day 3 to 4 years ago we would tell the noobie to buy a 308win, but now we just tell them to buy a 6.5CM. Ammo is cheaper per box and performance is way better than a 308win with factory loads. Recoil is also easier on smaller shooters or the ladies wanting in on the sport.

The days of noobies rolling to a match with a ole 5R with 10X loopy are over with. I see noobs roll up with GAPs, KMWs, Spartans, S&Bs, NFs, USOs, Vortex, in every freaking wizbang caliber you can imagine. Guys that jump into this game both feet aren't fucking around. I started with a savage 10FP with a loopy mildot. I haven't seen a rig like that hit our line in a LONG time.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkJvfCOwH5YndGs5RHpVVkJfZ2ZERWc1bDJBYklERlE#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArL0_DH1rR-3dEhkb0xvWDhwMUtLYXF3YkhqUUtXQ0E#gid=0

 

[Graham]

I really do want to say more here, but I am giving thought to what people are saying and I will post later. I continue to follow the discussion with interest, though.?

 

[Svendogg]

I think this is a great idea. As a novice competitive shooter, looking to get into the sport more, one of the biggest frustrations that I have, is the general lack of organization and communication of these types of events. In my area there are a handful (that I know of) of competitions, the only way that I know of these events and get updates on them is thru SH. Those that put them on, are very organized and communicate thru the hide very well. But if I am sure there are other events in the area (aside from the few that I am aware of), and I would love to have an organization that consolidates and summarizes these local events, so that I can see what other events are going on locally, and in the states that surround me, provides some sort of basic standardization to classes/ranking/rule system, and helps foster those of us that are relatively new to the sport. From my limited exposure, it feels as though there is plenty of room for improvement to help unify the community and great events that are currently being held by our local clubs & SH sponsors. Thanks or your ambitition and determination to better the sport for us all.

 

[cw8541]

I have to applaud the time you have to put into the TRL idea. I am the director of operations of the Marksmanship Training Center in Michigan. Right out of the gate, I agree 100% with this idea. We only opened in the spring of 2012 and have been experimenting with tactical precision rifle match as well as researching other matches on what works and what doesn’t to keep them challenging, fast paced, and fun. The idea of having a HQ to lean on for ideas and support would be a huge help in growing the turnout of new shooters for our matches. And not to mention to have a “national type” scoreboard (similar to the NRA) would be appealing to some – not all – shooters to engage in more competitions.

I’ve contacted PRS to get MTC on the circuit, but they gave us the thanks but no thanks cold shoulder. If this league is a corporate competitor to PRS, who cares? Competition in the market place builds a better product.

The COF score offset was a bit complicated at first, but I’m sure it would get ironed out for multistage events. For example: We plan on running 2 matches (more if interest is shown) in 2014 with a tentative 80 round, 1 day, COF of:
100 yard Modified FBI Sniper qual
Target ID
25 yard Snap Shot
Range Estimation
300-1000+ yards Steel Shoot
1000 yard bulls eye
300-600 yard Barricades
300 yard Dot drill – strong and weak side.
300 yard Movers

I’ve been struggling with division break ups, and your idea based on velocity is perfect. In regards to quality of rifles, optics, gear, etc… My opinion is a new shooter will run with what they have, but eventually will upgrade. Don’t set up classes based on gear type, if you don’t WIN with your rifle system then look around at what is working for others (gas/bolt guns, low/power optics, etc). Seems simple to me.

We’ve purposely been avoiding getting our F Class type matches sanctioned by the NRA because I don’t like governing body breathing down our backs and the idea of paying them just to be sanctioned isn’t appealing either.

As much as MTC preaches continuous training and improvement (we run courses too), I personally believe when you show up for a competition it's game time. Time to test the professional and personal training you've had. Bad business for me, but pregame clinics shouldn't be included in points for a competitive event.

Marksmanship Training Center is on board – count us in.

Q: Is the national scoring collection for shooter recognition only, or are there other incentives to “boost” placements as marksman, sharpshooter, expert? (Besides entry into national matches)

 

[Lowlight]

Back a few pages it was noted we'd have a separate military / LE division that is its own entity. It will compete the same but get ranked on its own.

The he military is behind the times, but it's not when it comes to magnums. As well with the discussion of a. Gas gun division the military is satisfied there as well.

In all honesty the military and gas gun is the easiest to handle, they're small and not moving anywhere near as quickly as the competition shooter.

 

[fargo007]

As for shooting in the east I am a victim of my experience. If "Sniping" is as popular as you've indicated, Rob, then it shouldn't be hard to find places to host events. I don't pretend to know who or what has been hosted back there other than what Rod Ryan used to host at Storm Mountain almost 15 years ago. Surely there are far more commercial operations up now.

Storm Mountain still does that match. My partner shot in it the last time it ran, and it was full IIRC. It was extremely well run, very difficult and a lot of fun.

It's all in how you define a "sniper" match. I see it as distinct from the type that has silk shirts, baby strollers and beep timers. Pressing and scoring the non-shooting skills. It doesn't have to be a full blown 3 hour stalk either. KIMS, Scav hunt, Land Nav, physical fitness... Things like that.

You've also got the competition dynamics 24hr sniper challenge out there.

We are doing a two day sniper match in 2014. If for no other reason than to put something different up. I expect it to fill up.

These ARE popular, but for some reason they just aren't done a lot. Suitable facilities may be a a large part of it. We've got a suitable facility so we are going to give it a go.

We were asked to participate in the PRS but I declined.

A few of us MD's got together and ran a two club 0-637Y series this year that was wildly popular. We did our own thing and it worked. My point is that what Frank is proposing will work too. It has the added benefit of creating MORE matches out there for guys to shoot. More matches pull more shooters in, and every once in a while a platoon of shooters will squat and shit out a shiny new MD.

Having gone through a two club series, I believe score keeping will be the most challenging part of this.

--Fargo007

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Here are our club stats for 2012 and 2013. Scroll to the bottom of each month and you can see what people are running. Back in the day 3 to 4 years ago we would tell the noobie to buy a 308win, but now we just tell them to buy a 6.5CM. Ammo is cheaper per box and performance is way better than a 308win with factory loads. Recoil is also easier on smaller shooters or the ladies wanting in on the sport.

The days of noobies rolling to a match with a ole 5R with 10X loopy are over with. I see noobs roll up with GAPs, KMWs, Spartans, S&Bs, NFs, USOs, Vortex, in every freaking wizbang caliber you can imagine. Guys that jump into this game both feet aren't fucking around. I started with a savage 10FP with a loopy mildot. I haven't seen a rig like that hit our line in a LONG time.

You can't buy ability or experience, shocking just shocking, I say. The Call Of Duty programers never knew what they started, did they?

 

[MikeeBooshay]

Back a few pages it was noted we'd have a separate military / LE division that is its own entity. It will compete the same but get ranked on its own.

The he military is behind the times, but it's not when it comes to magnums. As well with the discussion of a. Gas gun division the military is satisfied there as well.

In all honesty the military and gas gun is the easiest to handle, they're small and not moving anywhere near as quickly as the competition shooter.

Frank, will it be possible for non .mil types to compete in this division, as long as their equipment is comparable ? Say a guy with a 308 bolt gun shooting 175's, or a 7.62 gas gun, not making it an equipment race? The intent would not be to take away from the serving guys, but to run those particular systems.

I actually enjoy shooting the 308's, it does force me to be a better shooter, make better wind calls and range estimations. As you noted, and the core of the classification system, speed is your friend, and covers up a lot of shooter shortcomings. For those of us that these comps are a path to better marksmanship, shooting the 7.62 is also a lot of fun!

 

[Big Dog Steel]

Just a suggestion but here's a simple formula that might be a solution for the 308 vs the hot rod cartridges debate.

I'll call it the "Ballistic Coefficient Muzzle Velocity Factor" - BCVF

It's easy....BC x FPS divided by 1000.

Cartridges equaling a rating of 1.5 or less go into what amounts to 308 or ballistically similar cartridges. Over 1.5 go into the ballistically superior cartridges category.

Examples...

223 with 77 grainers. .4BC x 2850 fps divided by 1000 = 1.14 BCVF

308 with 155 grainers at 2900 fps divided by 1000 = 1.334 BCVF
308 with 168 .47BC x 2700 fps divided by 1000 = 1.269 BCVF
308 with 175 .515BC x 2650 fps divided by 1000 = 1.364 BCVF

243 with 105 - .545 x 3150 = 1.71 BCVF
260 with 140 - .6 x 2800 = 1.68 BCVF
7-08 with 168 - .62 x 2750 = 1.705 BCVF

6.5 SAUM 140 .62 x 3100 = 1.922 BCVF

7 SAUM with 180 - .67 x 2900 =1.942 BCVF

FWIW, I think a concept similar to this has merit. Similar to power factor in pistol sports.

However, wind is the decisive factor here. I think we can all agree that gravity is fairly constant so elevation is much more predictable than wind. Wind is typically what gets us, and I think this is what Frank and others were also eluding too. With that said I think you will always have gamers, guys that will run at 2875 or 2900 if you limit the speed in their division at 2850. Some of this, to a point, will happen depending on powders and atmospheric conditions as well. Personally I don't think 50-100 feet per second will make me shoot any better or worse. I started with a R700 308 1:10 twist rifle, then 30-06ai and 7RM and a host of other calibers before going to 260Rem and finally 243win. My 260 rem was shooting a pointed 142SMK at 2850-2875, my 243 is shooting a 105 hybrid at 3080. Why 3,080? Because that's currently where my gun shoots the most accurate. I've never had a gun that would shoot to its highest accuracy potential at the top end of the velocity scale without pressure signs and excessive wear on brass. I've learned my lesson there.

243 win, 105 hybrid @ 3,080fps, DA of 1500, temp 70, 10mph wind @ 90* I get 7.0E/1.8W @ 1K.
260 rem, 140 hybrid @ 2,800fps, DA of 1500, temp 70, 10mph wind @ 90* I get 8.1E/1.8W @ 1K.

Exact same wind.

I would hate for this sport to end up regulated to death like an IPSC comp. We have enough to worry about without adding a bunch of rules on top of everything else. I honestly do not agree that someone shooting the same caliber and bullet 100fps faster has any clear advantage. We are not shooting from benches. We are shooting from unstable positions, in varying wind and light conditions. We do not all shoot the exact same stages at the same time in the same conditions, that is a given in any competition. There are WAY too many variables to make separate divisions based solely on velocity.

To me, this is like saying, if you neck turn, weigh your powder on a prometheus, point your bullets, etc. you have to be in open division. Only factory ammo can compete in "X" division. In the end some people practice more than others with what they have...practice is what makes a better shooter not just the caliber. Do I agree that someone shooting a 7WSM from a prone position has an advantage over someone shooting a 223 @ 1K yards? Sure, but only to a point. The advantage is lessened and may even be in favor of a gas gun 223 shooting from a wobbly barricade at 323 yards over the 7wsm. To me caliber advantage plays a little higher in matches where longer shots are possible and the majority of shots are taken from stable positions. Someplace like K&M where you are tested on positional shooting more than prone, a whizbang caliber loses some of its advantage and the shot comes down to more skill than caliber.

No one is forcing anyone to run a certain caliber. Caliber, velocity, bullet, barrel twist, etc., etc. are completely up to the individual shooter. That's what great about the sport is that you can literally run just about anything so long as it does not exceed the matches maximum velocity and caliber. Not to pick on him, but you could give George a 308 shooting a 175smk at turd velocities and he would still easily come in with a top 10 finish at just about any match I could think of, especially one that has a lot of positional shooting.

Just food for thought.

 

[NorCal Vu]

You can't buy ability or experience, shocking just shocking, I say. The Call Of Duty programers never knew what they started, did they?

I don't think it has anything to do with COD or whatever. Let's face it. The precision rifle game isn't cheap to begin with. It is hardware intensive if you want to compete at a high level. This is not like IDPA where you drop some coin on a holster, glock, mags/mag pouches, belt, and go for it. We have stats clear back to 2006 I think. The average age of our shooters is like mid 30s to mid 40s, a lot of them being mid 40s to early 50s.

I don't fault anyone that has the coin to buy once, hurt once. If a guy wants to roll his custom rifle with S&B in 6.5CM, 260rem or whatever...good for him. We all know gear will only buy you so much of an edge because the wind doesn't give a fuck what you spent on your rig or what caliber it is. Sooner or later, you get owned.

I have gotten over the whole "gotta start with a good ole 308win" concept. With 6.5cm ammo costing 27 to 28 a box, and with FGMM going 30+, I am going to tell people to buy a 6.5CM. Even reloading for a 6.5CM is cheaper than 308win these days.

I think the majority of people that come out there with high end rigs realize it will only get them so far. Hell, I wish I wouldn't of just dropped the coin from the get go on what I have now. Would of saved me a whole lot of coin in the long run trying to upgrade here and there.

Vu

 

[Lowlight]

If anything I would drop the velocity rating down to

2750fps & Below, and 2800fps & above

That might change it a bit... but I still think the ease and understanding of this method has merit

Also,

Using the Power Rating like Steve did above, it would have to be 1.6 and below, and like 1.62 and above something like that in order to allow some factory 6.5s in the mix.

 

[Lowlight]

Another note too,

We can expand this easily into other countries, because it is local and regional. Then those guys can come over for the Nationals it easily opens up to more places and people

 

[Lowlight]

Gonna be out most of the day, but we have a lot of movement on the scoring and ranking systems.

Lots of really great feedback,