Remember the focus is to try and grow the sport. Having a limited class that's so utterly limited that all it winds up containing is a .223 and 105 amax's at nearly 3100fps is insane.
"Go get a bigger/faster gun" sounds too much like "no place for you here."
Telling people they are in the game by simply snapping a different upper on their AR is a huge growth potential for this sport that has remained almost completely untapped. A DMR or gas gun class accomplishes that, sure.
Military/LE lines should at least be given some thought when drawing up the classes. At least in terms of making sure such platforms are included somehow in a range where they are not completely dwarfed. The .308 is in huge play there, like it or not. In gas and bolt guns. So is the .223. I'm not saying carve a bubble out, but that's the connection to reality, like it or not because that's what's being used.
I know it's competition, but to me it has to have at least one tentacle reaching into the real world or it no longer remains relevant.
--Fargo007
This rationalizing really doesn't work on hard numbers, it works on emotions or a bias for a specific platform. The excuses in the name of being inclusive for newbies however it's really just a way to fight for a DMR gun to be competitive in Limited when it really isn't and we all know it. The disparity in capability between a DMR 223 running 77's is so far out of bed with even a 308 with M118LR ammo in it the argument is a total red herring when we look at numbers.
Also, the current state of the industry completely contradicts that we will have a 223 and a speedy 105Amax only. It currently doesn't happen whatsoever and it's an outright open class. There are 2 people I know running DMR guns in these matches, 1 of them is Fargo and he does it with an open admission that he's taking the hit in performance knowingly adn doing it as a training tool. So creating a class biased to run for 950-1250 BCVF's "for new shooters" because of these 2 red herrings is biased completely, I was going to leave it alone, but this is too much to just let sit since the rules now will affect so many shooters down the line.
The example of a 5.56 running 77's @ 2770fps is a 1025 BCVF
Comparably a 175SMK @ 2650 is 1259 and that's supposed to be a limited class (albeit lower level, limited class) caliber
The 185 Jugg @ 2700fps is 1501! almost 50% higher value than the 223.
Or, as was popular about 2 years ago the 208 Amax over RL17 in a 26" 308... at 2576-2600fps --> 1640... Blatantly an Open Class load, all with a 308
"Get a bigger/faster gun" because I said we need to curb the fairness train somewhere? Exactly, the application is unrealistic for the problem statement at hand. Let's look at the 1025 factor by addressing my question above with the 55gr bullets in a M193 spec, which is a 500m application.
Since M193's aren't a "match bullet" let's look at an equivalent weight 22c bullet at an equivalent speed, for sake of argument this is a very popular varmint load, the 55 Blitzking and it runs 3350fps from my old 20" upper, 3375 from the 21" upper I have now, and 3300 from the 18" upper that my friend owns.
The 55 Blitzking is a 0.295, so 0.3 and 3300fps
That is a 990 BCVF, only 35 points behind the 77SMK load, approximately 3.2%
Is the 55 Blitz a reasonable application here? What if someone has a 12tw upper and doesn't have a 9tw upper to shoot the 77's? "Get a faster barrel twist"
sounds too much like "no place for you here."
The solution there for "Being Fair and Including New Shooters" would be DMR class, which Fargo has pushed before. Dumbing down "Limited" to the point that a 308 with 185 Berger bullets (1500+) or 155 Scenars (1400+) in there doesn't fit into "Limited" because we're including 223's in an AR15 is foolishness for growth of the sport. I have no issue with the DMR class provided it is 223's only and 10x or less scopes to limit the arms race. An 18" 308 with heavy bullets in an AR10 is far more capable than the 223 as I showed above via BCVF, it doesn't belong in the DMR class whatsoever.
If the argument is to be inclusionary and we're not going to have the equipment race, then make DMR what it really is, a <600yd class with lower tech. Then you have no powers over 10x, basic mil-dot reticles only.
An upper limit BVCF at 1575 includes very reasonable level between the 6.5's and the 7's and the 308's using the newest and heaviest bullets in here.
"A 3000fps 105 Amax it is 8" less wind at 1000yd"
So look at that 8" as a matter of subtension instead of 8" It's a touch over 0.2mil out there. Always bring it back to the numbers as the shooters see them, it's not 8" it's 3/4 MOA or a little more than 0.2mil on 2+ mil wind call
That 105 Amax at 3100fps has a 0.2 mil benefit on a 2.2 mil wind hold. 10% on wind with a 308 adn with a 140 Amax at 2800fps the benefit is a complete push.
So, base the comparison on actual ballistics instead of emotional reactions to "it's a fast value and it's a 6mm, therefore it must be bad" the perceived "massive benefit" washes away or becomes a disadvantage in wind call when the "right bullet" is chosen for a 308, 7mm or 6.5mm with another Limited class caliber.
Numbers rule here and we all have access to JBM's tools, so let's use them and be smart about it. I think Frank's initial level-set of 1575 and 1580 being the line in the sand works very well and I ran a lot of numbers through JBM at 600 and 1000yd to look at it.
