Rifle Scopes At what point am I wasting money?

six 4 sure

six 4 sure

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 15, 2004
107
1
53
Harrisburg, IL
#1
Let me start off by saying I have lurked here on and off for several years, but rarely post anything. I’m still basically a noob, but I did perform several searches I just didn’t find any answers. Or maybe I didn’t find answers I wanted to hear.

For that past several years my financial situation has prevented me from building/buying, what I would consider, a good precision/sniper rifle. Fortunately, that has now changed, but it has raised several questions. I have made a decision as to which rifle I plan to buy (FN SPR), but I’m still unsure of what kind of scope to use.

I’d consider myself and average shooter skill wise. However, my current work schedule and geographic location don’t allow me to shoot at ranges much longer than 200 yards. So my question is, given my circumstances, at what point am I wasting money on a scope? I understand good/great optics are expensive, but given my limited trigger time I think a USO is probably more than I need. I think a nice Zeiss or Leupold mil-dot will fulfill 90%+ of my needs. I’d love to own a USO, but the way I look at it I could purchase two nice scopes for the price of one USO. Am I correct in my assumption or should I just “cry once” and buy a USO. Or would I be better off buying a decent mil-dot, becoming proficient with it, and then upgrade later?

Thanks.
 
#2
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by six 4 sure:
<span style="font-weight: bold">should I just “cry once” and buy a USO.</span></div></div>Yep. And with Leupold and NF prices rising - a USO isn't that far of a stretch (sometimes).

You may not be able to shoot past 200 right now, but all kinds of things change.

As your rifle tastes change and you get into custom guns, there's no reason the scope can't follow.

Realistically, a USO is probably more than you "need" but so are a lot of other things. A lot of this is about wants rather than needs ..... afterall, this is a hobby for a lot of us.
 
#3
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I'm a hobbyist as well.
I started shooting centerfire with a 6mm Remington varmint rifle and a Weaver fixed 15x.
With the availbility of cheap laser range finders and ballistics data I'd still be ok with that setup.
High magnification is great for precision but finding a scope that is over 20x while on a budget might end up in a waste of money.
I have a spotting scope that looked like a great deal 10 years ago that is falling apart and useless over 30x and 200 yards.
My first 308 came with a 6x Springfield Government model.
The mention of that scope might bring shudders or chuckles from experienced shooters but I thought it was the cats ass as a 24 year old.
It worked well at the range and allowed me to shoot decent groups out to 500 yards.
I kept it for 4 years and when I upgraded to a higher magnification scope my groups didn't get that much smaller.
In my experience(from what I've owned) most of the glass from Weaver, Sightron, Leupolds, Bausch and Lomb and the Super Sniper 10x are just fine for shooting range use.

Keep an eye out for folks selling good used glass.
I got a Bausch and Lomb 6-24 a few years back thats brighter and clearer than my new Leupold VX-III 6.5-20 for a third of the price.
I got an IOR 6x from this board for a fraction of the initial cost as well.

Are you shooting a 22 regularly? I shoot as much as I can with my 22 just to keep "limber".
An accurate 22 with good glass is money well spent.
 
#4
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

rule of thumb....

you get what you pay for.....and when you buy the best....it do what its supposed to do and longer,.....when it comes time to sell ,....you get more ROI (return of investment) then compared to the lower priced "stuff".......thus in the span of ownership.....it cost less to use the best.
 
#5
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Every one above has great points. But if you do not have the $$$$ go get a Leupold Mk4 PR line scope. I use the MK4 PR 3.5-10 and works just fine.

John
 
#6
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I'm going to take the opposite tack. Most people don't need the ultimate. Unless you are a working sniper, serious competitor or hard core tactical shooter, there's plenty of glass available that will serve well.

If you basically haul your rifle from safe to range and back again, you don't need to spend a mint. You don't buy a Ferrari to drive to 7-11. Of course, you might have to buy a USO or S&B if you are worried that other tactical shooters will look down on you.
 
#7
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by GunTech:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> Of course, you might have to buy a USO or S&B if you are worried that other tactical shooters will look down on you. </span></div></div>Dude,

That is the best line ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:beer:

John
 
#8
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

GunTech is very correct. I believe most people either buy the cheapest scopes, treating them as an aftertought. On the other hand, people who come to forums (fora?) such as this one end up buying scopes far beyond their means or their needs, just because they don't want to be seen as wimps.

Figure out what you realistics needs are and buy to meet those needs. If you are going into combat or if you are competing at national level, then do get the best possible scope, your life or your score may depend on it.

But for us ordinary, run off the mill, low-level competitors and shooters, spending extravagant amounts of money on a riflescope is ludicrous. Plus things change and products evolve. As six 4 sure said, he could not afford good stuff before but his situation changed and now he can. I am sure that as time goes by, he will be able to afford ever more.

Also, there is a wave of new scopes with interesting technology that is about to hit and this will render all the current scopes obsolete.

As an ordinary shooter, I would suggest that you get a good scope with the best glass and keep it under $400-500. I would definitely look at Nikon (that phenomenal Monarch 6.5-20X44, $349), and the Buckmasters series. I would also look at Burris, Pentax, Leupold and maybe even the Zeiss conquest.

Get good glass, but use your moeny on the best ammunition you can handload or buy. That will be more critical to good performance.
 
#10
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by GunTech:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> +1.

And practice a lot. Money spent on trigger time is money well spent. The most awesome rifle and glass won't do you any good if you don't shoot. </span></div></div>Exactly !!! :beer:
-
???:
- How much shooting will you really do?
- Is buying something in the higher dollar range going to set you back from funds for more "quality" ammo?
- What is your scope budget?
- Do you know what you want if you were to buy a US Optics Scope?
* trying to help

JMHO/.02-

- I feel/understand what your saying, I too wish I didnt buy this & that in the past.... BUT, Was it a waste of money? I'd say NO, I learned what I like/dislike from different rifles/scopes in different ranges.

- Most readily available off the shelf scopes will have its pros/cons & many shooters wish "if I could only get this scopes features/option w/ this scope that would be perfect" Well, thats were a manuf. like US Optics steps in - Get What You Want Made to Your Needs/Wants.
- Will other scopes in the off-shelf range such as Night Force, Leupold, IOR, get the job done....YES, but just depends what you want/expect from your dollar & equipment, everyone has a different flavor.
- IMHO - I wish I had a US Optics SN-3 Tpal, w/ this & that opts, I know "Buy/Cry once" easier said than done at times ...
- So, if you can afford it, BUY WHAT YOU WANT !!! Ur $$$ Ur Choice, BUT make sure you know what you want in the scope as for options. Of course US Optics has TOP NOTCH Customer Service & will assist you w/ any questions/needs/wants you may have.
- One thing that works for someone else may not be something for you, YMMV.

Again, just trying to help. :beer:
F.T.K.
 
#11
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by six 4 sure:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> I’m still basically a noob...

I have made a decision as to which rifle I plan to buy (FN SPR), but I’m still unsure of what kind of scope to use.

I’d consider myself and average shooter skill wise. However, my current work schedule and geographic location don’t allow me to shoot at ranges much longer than 200 yards. So my question is, given my circumstances, at what point am I wasting money on a scope? </span></div></div>Money doesn't equate to performance as a rule. David Tubb will clean your clock with a BSA scope on a Ruger bolt rifle vs. your world's-best setup.
smile.gif


I suggest you buy whatever you can afford. Lots of scopes will do what you want. A $250 Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14x40 mildot, to a $400 Sightron, to a $650 Burris XTR, to a $900 Leupold Variable Mark 4, to a $1,500 Nightforce NXS, to a $2k+ USO or S&B.

The question is do you want bragging rights for shots on target, or that AND for the gear you sport. Nothing wrong with either. It's your money.

The guy that drives to the range in a Bentley Flying Spur vs. the guy that shows up in a Toyota Highlander. Both get the job done, both in a certain style. In my view, budget affects style options...

cool.gif
 
#13
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

There is no such thing as cry once when it comes to guns and optics. After you cry the first time there is going to be another and another and another
smile.gif


Get what<span style="font-weight: bold">YOU</span>want (that is within your budget) if that budget is a BSA than at least you get to shoot. IF your budget is for 2k glass then you shouldn't cry because its within your budget.

I look at good optics like a savings account. The money is there if something happened and you need to sell it (most high end scopes dont last long here). BUT the best part is you get to play with your money and enjoy it.
 
#14
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Would you rather be looked down upon for showing up at the range and cant shoot with cheap gear or with high end gear? At least you could blame the poor shooting on the gear until you improve.
 
#15
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Rookie has it right!

:p


There was a newbie who showed up at our Tac match several years ago with about $4k worth of rig. He barely hit the target at 200y, and missed every shot thereafter. Worst performance I've witnessed at the match. He even brought his hottie girlfriend to watch. I felt sorry for the guy. Substance over style wins the day.
 
#16
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Rookie:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> Would you rather be looked down upon for showing up at the range and cant shoot with cheap gear or with high end gear? At least you could blame the poor shooting on the gear until you improve. </span></div></div>Agree Again, :beer:
 
#17
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Just accpet the fact that if you stay in this game you will upgrade. Even the guys with top of the line USO's and S&B's will eventually upgrade, even if it's to USO's/S&B's next best greatest. Let USO come out with a rugged and durable solar powered auto ranging/auto adjusting 1.1-30x50AO scope for $3000 and you'll see some guys selling their SN3s and such to buy it.

There is another side to the point about buying beyond what is needed. As you progress, you'll learn, and as you learn, part of what you learn is what suits you and what does not.

Case in point- I started with a 10x super sniper. It was a good scope, but I found that with the fixed magnification, I was severely limited when it came to closer in, moving targets. Next I bought an IOR 2.5-10. It was a nice scope, FFP, etc, but after shooting to 1000 yards, I saw how I was limited by 1/2 MOA clicks, so I bought a Nikon 2.5-10 with AO and 1/4MOA clicks. It's served well, but now I can see that I'd like a bit more magnification for the extended ranges. The 10x is fine for out to 600 or so, and fine for pretty accurate shooting, but I can't see a 1/4-1/2" dot at 500 with it, so I'm now looking for a used USO or a Nightforce.

so point is, you needs will progrees along with your ability. As your needs progress, justifying the cost will as well.

I'd be surprised to find anyone here that has shot long range for 10 years or so that still uses the same gear they started with.

when you accept that your needs will change, you will see that you won't be crying when you finally spring for a USO.
 
#18
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Kletzenklueffer has a great point.

I bought an original 10X Leupold Mk4 M3 for my min tactical rifle, After shooting it for a while, I decided I needed a variable as well, and one with finer adjustments thna 1 MOA. I replaced it with a 4.5-14x w/ M1 knobs.

You shouldn't plunk down a lot of money unti you have a good idea of what you want/need.

Another of his points is equally valid. Most of us can remember when the Leupold Mk4 was king. Then it was USO. Now S&B is the big dog. Times change.
 
#19
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

for the loooooongest time my only access to a range was to a 100Y one...
where i live now, i have access to a 1000 Yard range...
if you can, buy once cry once
 
#20
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I can't imagine needing anything better than my mark 4 6.5-20x50 IR mildot and I've looked through the uso's alot. Definitely not worth another $1000.00 to me. Now read again I said me.
 
#21
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Nate Haler:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> Money doesn't equate to performance as a rule. David Tubb will clean your clock with a BSA scope on a Ruger bolt rifle vs. your world's-best setup.
smile.gif

</span></div></div>Let me disagrre with these statements. In the world of competition, the difference between winning and losing is many times measured in mere fractions of an inch. I have no idea if you have ever competed but let me tell you that preparation and excellent equipment are key to success, along with mental preparation and practice.

You can be the world's greatest shooter, but if your reticle drifts or you can't see your target or the rifle has a wandering point of impact, you will not do well at all.

David Tubb and all other topnotch competitors are totally familiar with their equipment and make sure they have nothing but the very best.

Indeed, knowing what the best equipment is for your purposes and setting it up, then knowing everything about that equipment and practicing with it every day is what makes a champion.

Highpower shooting is not like golf where the golfer makes all the difference. Shooting is a system made up of rifle, sights or optics, ammunition, ancillary equipment and the shooter. If any of these components fails, the system fails. A top notch shooter orchestrates all these components and makes the system perform to the very best of its possibilities.

In some ways, money does equate to performance in this discipline. But money will not make up the basic skills required.

I have proven this to myself several times. I can take someone who has never shot, put them behind my Precision Rifle and teach them how to hold the crosshairs on the target at a known distance and get them to pull the trigger without moving anything and they will hit the X-ring every time. The skill is needed to properly set up the rifle, ammo, sight combination to do that. Then after that, skill is needed for reading the wind and the mirage and doing the same thing over and over again, consistently. There is skill required with shooting at unknown distances.

A David Tubb has to focus totally on the task at hand, doing the same thing consistently over and over and over again, without fail and adapting as conditions changes. These people are always looking for that extra edge in equipment, mental preparation and yes, practice.
 
#22
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Thanks for the response everyone.

I’ll try and answer some of the questions. Yes, I have a nice CZ 22 that I shoot pretty regular. It was worked over by a friend and now one hole groups at 25 yards aren’t much of a problem.

Currently I work every other Saturday. I’m hoping that will change sometime this summer. I am a member of a local sportsman’s club, but it only has a 50 yard range. I’ll probably be joining another range (200 yard) but it will be a bit of a drive. If I start getting all my Saturdays off I plan to increase my time at the range. I reload so I don’t know that ammo will be much of a problem. Just need to acquire the components.

I have a nice Ziess Conquest 6.5 – 20 X50 I just purchased from gr8fuldoug here. I put it on one of my AR’s, but if need be I could move it to my bolt gun.

I’ve looked at the USO’s a lot. I have a pretty good idea what I want, but I need to do a few more searches before I make any kind of decision. Look like there will be a group buy sometime in the next couple of months. I’ll probably make my decision then.

Thanks again
 
#23
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I have a 6.5-20x50 Zeiss Conquest, IOR 6-24x50, NXS 5.5-22x56, Weaver T-36, Redfield Target 10x.

I bought the IOR on a gamble because of conflicting quality concerns on the Burris and Leupolds. Like many, when a lifetime warranty is offered your not supposed to actually need it. The IOR is a fine scope but has some issues, less stress if you buy one from the right place... Price wise it was the same if not a tad more than a LEupold. The NXS was purchased because I didn't want to have ANY problems with the scope at all, so far it's perfect and problem free. The Zeiss is a terrific scope, clear, durable, good clicks, but somewhat limited on moa adjustments so depending on what your shooting and how far you might need another scope or a compensating mount/rings. For the money or bang for the buck the Zeiss is the clear winner out of my collection.

I wish I didn't buy the IOR, for a few dollars more I would have been 100% satisfied with another NXS or USO ST-10. The other USO's/S&B's would be nice to have but the budget says otherwise.
 
#24
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by GunTech:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> I'm going to take the opposite tack. Most people don't need the ultimate. Unless you are a working sniper, serious competitor or hard core tactical shooter, there's plenty of glass available that will serve well.

If you basically haul your rifle from safe to range and back again, you don't need to spend a mint. You don't buy a Ferrari to drive to 7-11. Of course, you might have to buy a USO or S&B if you are worried that other tactical shooters will look down on you. </span></div></div>+1 to GunTech and all others of his ilk in this thread for the common sense shown. Not everyone has the thousands to spend on a scope.

I mean, I'd love to have a USO, S&B etc., and like them very much, but it's just not in the cards for me at this time.

I'll be one using a Sightron(great scope for the $$, BTW), Nikon Buckmaster(another good one), and the like. I even have a BSA on a .22RF of mine and I don't think I could shoot any smaller groups with any higher valued scope.
confused.gif
wink.gif


Learn to shoot well with what you can afford. If the time comes that you can afford higher dollar optics, it'll pay off then.
laugh.gif
 
#25
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Sig685:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Nate Haler:
Money doesn't equate to performance as a rule. David Tubb will clean your clock with a BSA scope on a Ruger bolt rifle vs. your world's-best setup.
smile.gif

</span></div></div>Let me disagrre with these statements. In the world of competition, the difference between winning and losing is many times measured in mere fractions of an inch. I have no idea if you have ever competed but let me tell you that preparation and excellent equipment are key to success, along with mental preparation and practice. </div></div>Go ahead and disagree. But you vs. David Tubb in a high power or silhouette match, and you shoot your best gear and DT shoots the gear I cited? My money is on David Tubb.

We're not talking benchrest, friend. We're talking shooting that puts the premium on the human factor.

If the original poster were a top-notch competitor, he wouldn't be asking the question, would he?
 
#26
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Buy the best that you can!

If you can afford a USO or S&B, why would you not buy it?

I have learnt buy the best and only buy once over the years I have been shooting.

I started with a Ruger MK1 as my first rifle, and since then I have always bought better gear, and now I am at the stage of only custom gear.

Although, the funds have increased over the years to allow this to happen which I am lucky enough to have!

Cheers
AI
 
#27
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Nate Haler:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Sig685:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Nate Haler:
Money doesn't equate to performance as a rule. David Tubb will clean your clock with a BSA scope on a Ruger bolt rifle vs. your world's-best setup.
smile.gif

</span></div></div>Let me disagrre with these statements. In the world of competition, the difference between winning and losing is many times measured in mere fractions of an inch. I have no idea if you have ever competed but let me tell you that preparation and excellent equipment are key to success, along with mental preparation and practice. </div></div>Go ahead and disagree. But you vs. David Tubb in a high power or silhouette match, and you shoot your best gear and DT shoots the gear I cited? My money is on David Tubb.

We're not talking benchrest, friend. We're talking shooting that puts the premium on the human factor.

If the original poster were a top-notch competitor, he wouldn't be asking the question, would he? </div></div>You neglected to include my next sentence that qualified my statement that you highlight above:

"You can be the world's greatest shooter, but if your reticle drifts or you can't see your target or the rifle has a wandering point of impact, you will not do well at all."

However, I was not comparing myself to David Tubb in any way. My point is that whereas a golf pro can take ordinary clubs and still be competitive with other pros, a world class competitor using a hunting rifle with a BSA scope will NOT be competitive with other world class shooters who use their regular equipment.

If your rifle/sight/ammo combination gives no better accuracy than 3-4 MOA, being the very best shooter in the world will not make up for it when the other competitors scores are differentiated by fractions of minutes of MOA.

It is also well known that inferior shooters using superior equipment can beat superior shooters using inferior equipment.

Have a look at this article. Particularly paragraph 4:

"...In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges...."

Equipment does make a difference. The top competitors all know this and spend a lot of time making sure the equipment does not detract from their finely honed skills.
 
#28
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Your assumption is that it's shooters of comparable skill.

My post in that regard made no such assumption. I replied to the original poster that HE would get his clock cleaned by David Tubb.

If HE was, say Norm Houle or Jim O'Connell or Kent Reeve, then HE wouldn't be asking that question, would he?

My comments were in context. His post didn't say "If I'm as good a shooter as anybody there is, will I need to have the best gear possible to be competitive?", did it?

He wants to know if spending $3k on a scope will get him where he wants to be vs. spending (for example) $500 on a scope. Given your argument, the driver who wants to get to work as fast as possible should purchase an F-1 Ferrari. But he's not competing on the Formula One circuit, is he?

:bandit:
 
#30
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

The "buy once/cry once" is a pretty popular slogan around here. I gotta say though, I kinda cringe when I read it. Everyone has to make their purchase decision based on thier respective wants, needs, and BUDGET. Using that slogan has a tendency to convince shooters that they really NEED to buy a USO or Schmidt and Bender regardless of whether they can afford it! That's a reckless recommendation, I believe. I'd love to have a USO or S&B, but I simply cannot afford it. I have car payments, a mortgage, and 3 kids still in the house to raise. I have to be fiscally responsible, and make my purchases based on what I can afford and will work for me. I have a very expensive custom rifle, but only because a business associate built it for me and donated his labor. I had to sell a Savage Tactical rifle, and my beloved Benelli Super 90 to pay for it, but it was well worth it. I have a Leupold Mark 4 LR/T M1 sitting on top of it, and I'm tickled pink with it. I also had a Rock River Arms rifle that I put a Leupold Vari-X III on, and that thing shot fabulous groups. Would a USO or S&B make me shoot tighter groups with these rifles? I doubt it. Would I still love to have one? Sure, I just can't afford it. My point is, buy what you can afford,and what will fill your needs. If you can afford the top shelf stuff, and are comfortable dropping that much dough, do it. Otherwise, research your options and buy what you can AFFORD and will be HAPPY with.


Donnie
 
#31
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I think you should buy what you can afford, keep in mind that low priced tactical scopes "target turents/mil-dot" carry some risk as to if it will work as advertised. The super sniper brand comes with unquestionable quality. It isn't top notch, but it will perform as advertised. The BSA looks nice has nice numbers "good magnification, mil-dots, and low price", but some people have problems with them, I don't own one, however some people like them.
My advice, buy a scope, buy ammo, proceed to shoot until ammo is gone then repeat the process of buying more ammo. If you get rid of enough ammo the scope will eventually be replaced with another scope. I am currently getting rid of ammo, not buying a better scope.
 
#32
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I agree with fpdsniper. I have a Leupold sitting on top of a Surgeon. Might seem a little odd to some here. But, for now, it is good enough for my recreational shooting. I would love to be able to get a USO or S&B (even thinking of upgrading to a NF). Right now, that is what was in my budget. Maybe after saving for a while (and shooting alot), I'll be able to get something nicer. I know there are alot of Leupold haters out there, but I think they are pretty nice... for me. Shameless plug for my new stick (man I love this thing!!!):


Dsc00874.jpg
 
#33
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

If you can afford it - great! But be careful.

It is real easy to get caught up in "the latest and greatest game," especially when you frequent sites like this and other similar sites (ARFCOM, etc.)

There will always be something new, something better and there will always be a guy or group of guys that always seem to have and post pictures of this fantastic stuff. Getting sucked into it is not hard. It's called "keeping up with the Joneses."

If you compete this may be necessary - if not - it is a trap and a never ending drama.

I have had to catch myself a couple times. Buying - selling - buying - selling - to get the "next build" done. I want good stuff just like the next guy. But at some point you just have to be content with what ya got. For me that is Leupold - used Leupolds as a matter of fact. For most people who don't frequent specialty sites it's Bushnell, Tasco, and Simmons and they are having every bit as much fun shooting as the guys with USO and NF. Maybe more?
 
#34
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I do not have nearly as much experience with long range shooting as most people here, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Here is my take on this though:

If you are independently wealthy, buy the best (USO, S&B, etc), so that there will be no regrets later.

If you are on a budget, figure out what your budget is. The competition in the optics industry these days is such that you can buy a very serviceable scope from $300 (Super Sniper) and up.

If you are a truly serious competitor or if you do this for a living, you will end up upgrading later. In all seriousness, you can keep tweaking your equipment until the world ends.

However, if your budget does not allow you to buy a USO right now and you buy a cheaper scope from reputable maker, you can always sell it later and not loose much money. Super Sniper, Sightron S2, Nikon, etc actually hold their values adequately well (especially if you do your homework and not overpay to start with).

ILya
 
#35
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I suggest giving nightforce a try. They come available here at prices that are very close to Leupold prices. there is a difference in the quality of the glass. Quality glass is habit forming.

I dream of the day I can purchase a USO or an S&B however with two sons to put through college, it may be a while.
 
#36
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by WarNerve:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> For most people who don't frequent specialty sites it's Bushnell, Tasco, and Simmons and they are having every bit as much fun shooting as the guys with USO and NF. Maybe more? </span></div></div>Lotsa truth in that statement.
 
#37
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Pal O' Mine:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by WarNerve:
For most people who don't frequent specialty sites it's Bushnell, Tasco, and Simmons and they are having every bit as much fun shooting as the guys with USO and NF. Maybe more? </span></div></div>Lotsa truth in that statement. </div></div>A lot of you folks seem to have forgotten about Sightron scopes. They make excellent optics in the median price range. Lifetime of the scope warranty, solid clicks, repeatability, etc.
eek.gif

http://www.sightron.com/index.php?action=view_category&cat_id=1047415659

Or there's the Nikon Buckmaster running about $269.00 with a coupon for a free mil dot master for just postage.
http://theopticzone.com/detail.aspx?ID=3613
 
#38
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I am one cheapo old fart.

I am a firm believer in starting with affordable stuff, then buying better stuff only if and when the affordable stuff proves inadequate.

I seem to save a lot of money that way; and yes, I also get some nasty disappointments along the way. But those lessons only need be learned once, and I figure I'm way ahead of the game where costs are concerned. I put my leftover (yeah.., right...) shekels into reloading components and shoot a lot more often.

I also think you should buy what you can afford. If you can't, the question is moot anyway. If you can, I don't at all believe there is such a thing as wasting money by spending more for more adequate gear. You get what you pay for.

Maybe there's an ego thing at work here, I can't say. I buy as much ego as I can afford. Others have a different price range.

I will say this about recent Chinese products, in my instance, Tasco. The Chinese seem to be getting better at making a useable product. Not comparable to the bigbuck stuff, but clearly adequate for my own modest needs. Once again, you get what you pay for.

So, to answer your original question, you're wasting money when you buy something you don't need.

The more important question is how to figure out what's necessary and what's superfluous. We're all still working on that one...

My method has worked for me so far.

Greg
 
#39
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Gun-tech is spot on!! And I applaud him for is statement!! I agree fully!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course, you might have to buy a USO or S&B if you are worried that other tactical shooters will look down on you.
</div></div>
 
#40
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

There's no shame in being on a budget.

Of course I like the finest, but a guy can't always afford the finest.

For a budget-priced scope, I'd seriously look at a Super Sniper. I've got one, and I'm pretty dang impressed with it all the way around considering what it cost.

At last count my dad and I have approximately 30 Leupold products between us, and the only thing to ever let us down was a pair of binoculars. They were sent to Leupold one week, and the following week Leupold shipped a brand new pair back, free of charge of course. That pair has been running strong for several years now.
 
#41
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Another scope worthy of consideration is the UK made Falcon series. They are in the price range of the Super Sniper (just a little more), but offer more variety/choices as well. I recently picked up the Falcon Merlin 4x14x56mm Illuminated MilDot reticle (red and green w/rheostat), 30mm tube, pretty sturdy construction, great glass, Target Turrets (1/8 adj... a negative for me, prefer 1/4 which is now available as well), 2.5 & 4" sunshades, a 90mm (HUGE) extra wheel to place on top of the very stiff side focus knob, proprietary flip ups, and a few other bells & whistles.... came in at $400 shipped...

I have it mounted on top of a M700 PSS .308 with a 24" fluted factory barrel in an HS Precision M24 style stock ( it was a special limited PD run I was told...) with Seekins 6 screw rings & 20 moa base (LOVE these Rings & Base!!!). It has only been to the range 3 times so far & performed flawlessly at 100 & 240 yards. I haven't run a box test on it yet, and am planning a full eval to share here. It was very easy to set up, adjustments (clicks) were perfect & positive. I removed the scope from the base twice, and it held it's zero very well when returned to the rifle. I've been waiting to see Tactical's review of the infamous Counter Sniper scope & will copy his review outline with this one (as long as it's non-destructive!!).

Just another option available for those on a budget (like me!!!)... I own & use a couple higher end scopes, but have been looking for one that wouldn't break my savings account, had the features I wanted, good quality glass, and was sturdy & reliable... So far this one fits the bill, but further evaluation is needed to see just where I would rank this among other brands... As of today, it's a keeper for me! But, that is subject to change after I put it through all of the paces! YMMV!!!!
 
#42
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I have not tried the Falcon scopes so can not comment.

I say this, just get either a Super Sniper in 10X (300.00 new) or a Leupold MK4 M1 or M3 used for 650.00 or so.

I have been testing the counter Sniper Optics in 3x9 for about a month now. On my SPR I like it a bunch. I just got two more Counter Sniper Optics yesterday set up for snipers not DMRs. I will be testing them over next month or so and will let you know. These are the new Locking Turrett models. Glass is excellent and clciks fell great is all I can tell you right now. I need to see how they hold up before I say buy them.

These will do evberything you need and if you wnat to up grade later your wont lsoe any money on them.
 
#43
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I have a Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40 and a BSA 6-24x40 IR w/ Mil-Dots.

The BSA is more clear and easier to use. I actually prefer the BSA and it's a $120 scope vs. the $600 Leupy. I have no shame using these scopes. Good luck!
 
#44
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sw99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40 and a BSA 6-24x40 IR w/ Mil-Dots.

The BSA is more clear and easier to use. I actually prefer the BSA and it's a $120 scope vs. the $600 Leupy. I have no shame using these scopes. Good luck! </div></div>

Youve got to be shitting me..... Ive seen alot of Leupold bashing here, but to say a BSA has better glass is BS.
This one definatetly takes the cake..
 
#45
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Youve got to be shitting me..... Ive seen alot of Leupold bashing here, but to say a BSA has better glass is BS.
This one definatetly takes the cake..</div></div>

Where did I mention the quality of the glass? I know the Leupy has better glass and I would never dispute this. I will tell you that the BSA is more clear (perhaps because it not as old). Call is BS if you would like. I am merely stating my personal observations on these two particular scopes that I have.
 
#46
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I finally ordered a US Optics, thanks to Augustis and his 1000 yard match.

One place where optical quality makes the difference is very long range. If you only shoot at 300, 500 or even 600 yards it's not such a big deal. When you stretch out the distance, it's another matter.

I also discovered that while I had a 2.5-10x Nikon tactical on my rifle, I inevitably left it set at 10X. If you can live with a fixed 10x, you can get the USO ST-10 at a <span style="font-style: italic">very </span> reasonable price.

In my case, I got an MOA reticle, 1/2 MOA elevation, 1/2 MOA winday all for under $1200 shipped. I decided on a fixed objective, but AO was only another $200. The leupold Mk IV 10x runs $1360 from SWFA, making the two scopes cost nearly identical, with better glass on the USO, and built to my specifications.

Mike at CS Gunworks is the gut to talk to.

Now I just have to wait for them to build it.
 
#48
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

I am sure Leupold uses a better quality glass. I have no idea what BSA uses. I got this scope as a gift. I am just giving my two cents. You are more than welcome to look through them both.

I am not a scientist but... I am pretty sure there a fair amount things that go into quality glass. I just call it like I see it. Take that for what it's worth.
 
#49
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

sw99,

Sorry if Im sounding like an ass, but Ive heard to many local gun shop gurus lately saying that thier BSAs, Trashcos, Barskas, etc, are "just as good a those expensive Leupolds and such". IT drives me fucking crazy!!

Have a good one.
 
#50
Re: At what point am I wasting money?

Totally of track but - I've seen some Chinese glass recently that looks very clear - because it is BRIGHT. But I think due to it passing a tremendous amount of BLUE spectrum light.

I'll not say which because it's not been mentioned here and that's then not fair - but when put up against another marque in the same price class it is noticeably less SHARP and lacks the contrast of (for example) a Falcon. BUT you'll not see this ins a shop-front glimpse test unless you are really used to it. You wont hold it still enough for a start.

I've a real ace custom Premier Leupold that at first glance is NOT as BRIGHT as many new "better range" chinese stuff. But start looking at "holes (bullet or other)" at 200yards - and then the quality shines through. My other scopes are generally IOR or S&B so wont use those for comparison.

My USD0.02 is that if you can SEE what you want to shoot at in the light & field conditions you will shoot in - then more is luxury. If you cannot - you need better glass.

I happen to be VERY fussy about glass and so pay (too much?) for the luxury. Do I NEED it? - no - not always.


 
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