Rifle Scopes ATACR vs S&B PMII 5-25

The "Tactical Crowd" you mean like the SEALs and Crane who have been using SFP Nightforce scopes in Combat for how long ? It's just a training issue, if you learn to use your optics correctly you can easily work the landscape with a SFP and in the context of ELR it's a solid choice as there are very few benefits when using a FFP, some but very few.

Haven't the SEALs also been using mil reticles with MOA turrets? May be a training issue, but it doesn't mean they have the best tool for the job. Training overcomes shortcomings of gear by all means, but there's no reason for the mis-matched turret and reticle. Didn't the Navy award a new contract for S&B 5-25x56 with locking turrets, .25 MOA turrets and H2CMR reticles?
 
All I gotta say is the S&B 5-25 DT/H-59 has won the scope wars in my book. Why??? As a whole it's hard to find fault with it. Too me the tunneling beginning on low mag and the illume mounted on the tube are non issue. Everything else on it is optics heaven to me.

Since I can't afford a $$$$ scope for every rifle I own, the most used being air rifles and 22rf's, and I'm picky about certain features with stellar glass towards the top, I decided if a scope isn't FFP mil/mil with 10Y parallax my money won't be spent.

I know my criteria for owning a scope is different than 99% of the shooters out there but it sure floats my boat when I can win a Field Target air rifle match the 2cnd weekend of the month then win a long range match the 3rd weekend of the month with the same exact scope! Man I love that S&B!
 
Don't know about you, but during the GAP Grind with a 6mm Creedmoor I never held off the plate. So why do I need to worry.

Clearly there are proper tools for the job at hand, I use mostly FFP however the ATACR changed my opinion on SFP. I shot the Oregon match with my Kahles, 308 only event, I had no need for FFP there. Day one was inside 100 day two to 800 was slow fire.

If I was building an ELR rig, which already cost a lot saving $1k buying the NF is a huge win. The last XLR class I took my S&B took a dive on the last day. It was well worn and needed a break, but still
 
When 14 of the Top 20 are using them, why would you consider anything else, cause that is what you are saying about the scope ... think about it:

Team GAP is using Bushnell, most debating in this thread would say the Bushnell is not up to par optically. Still guys are winning with it.

There is a lot of stuff out there, and there is a lot of reasons to use Product A over Brand B, however let's not fool ourselves into thinking you can't make do with just about any modern brand available today ----- > after all winning is all about Training & Practice and if you practice enough odds are you'll win. Doesn't matter what you use, it matters how you use it.
 
Actually, I've been considering switching, but I'm stacked deep on .260 stuff at the moment. After I'm done with school and devote more time, I'll probably be ready for a barrel and have more time for bigger matches. At club matches where the competition isn't as stringent, .308 and .260 are doing me quite well.
 
@tyler02 ya, cause guys like Terry Cross never won a competition with a SFP - and he uses a NF.

The difference is both of those groups is experience. Very few people on this site shoot as much as Terry Cross or a SOCOM Sniper, along with the conditions they shoot in.

For people like me, and probally most who buy these items, the difference is one less variable to screw up. I don't have to do an additional calculation or introduce another variable when I'm calculating a firing solution.

I can set my power range on whatever works the best for the given shot, and not worry about how it changes my hold overs.

Its the same as Mil/MOA. Yea it was done that way for years.... And it can still be done, but why?
 
Nothing wrong with the Bushnell or ATACR. I got an ATACR after seeing one at the range. I run it on my 223 so the SFP means little to me. Its a rifle I get prone with and shoot varmints.
 
@Cobracutter,

What ever excuse you need to justify a poor performance... if you can't or dont' practice you can't expect to do well.

Problem is, people make these justification without ever going out and doing anything or doing very little poorly so they blame it on the equipment.

No competition I have ever run or shot didn't give me enough time ahead of the clock to make my wind call. At that point I can dial on whatever I need then favor slightly.

There is more way to skin a cat... I have used it all, and while I continue to compete with a FFP if someone said, use the ATACR I would not hesitate to use it.

hate to tell ya Too, Terry works more than one job and has other stuff going on, he is not "shooting that much" he is just shooting better than you.
 
@Cobracutter,

What ever excuse you need to justify a poor performance... if you can't or dont' practice you can't expect to do well.

Problem is, people make these justification without ever going out and doing anything or doing very little poorly so they blame it on the equipment.

No competitive I have ever run or shot didn't give me enough time ahead of the clock to make my wind call. At that point I can dial on whatever I need then favor slightly.

There is more way to skin a cat... I have used it all, and while I continue to compete with a FFP if someone said, use the ATACR I would not hesitate to use it.

hate to tell ya Too, Terry works more than one job and has other stuff going on, he is not "shooting that much" he is just shooting better than you.


Well not all off us are fortunate enough to be able to shoot every day
Or live anywhere near a range where we can get a chance to shoot at distance all the time
Or have soo much disposable income, that we can just takes classes all the time, and shoot a few hundred rounds a weekend, and buy new gear to try out all the time.

So back when Terry Was winning all the time, was he not practicing? This sport wasn't as big as it is now, so the competion has gotten much better, but bottom line is, he shot more than the vast majority.

Personally, I don't shoot matches. Besides that fact that there are none around here, I don't have the time for those games.
I get out and shoot when I can, and try to make the most of it when I do.
Having used SFP for years before making the jump, I will never go back.
I will spend more time shooting and less time doing math (which I get more than enough at my day job)
 
That is nothing but your perception of it... none of that is true. North VA, not close to ASC at all is it.

You dont have to do math with a second focal plane if you don't want and if all you are doing is shooting by yourself, why not take your time dialing ? To get the most out of your practice, you want to have solid data. When I practice I dial, then I have a real number which I can then use to hold later when I have too. But dialing gives me solid feedback which I can record.

Any practice I do for me, or for a competition, I go out and shoot on paper dialing, not holding then when I need to hold, I know my numbers are solid.

You're completely mistaken in your assumptions and your excuses are duly noted.

Nothing wrong with a FFP scope, nothing at all, I have dozen's but in terms of the ATACR it is one of the best scopes on the market today. That is the point. If you want FFP get the BEAST when it comes out... or will the excuse be, the .1 lever... cause we all now the Marines didn't use a lever 40 years or did they ?
 
Actually Yes...

Mounting it gives it a more centered and steady platform than hand holding it. Being just slightly off center (which normally does not happen when mounted) can cause a problem. Stability matters.

This is why guys who actually test stuff lock them in a mount and don't free hand them.

Kahlesparallax.jpg



If these guys just held up the scope in their hand you'd be like WTF ?

You complained about the Kahles without even using it, yet at the 2013 SHC we used that exact scope to hit an 8" plate at 600 yards at Night with no illumination. Mod Armory supplied the Night Vision and I set up both my AX & AE with the Kahles Scopes, and the top shooter hit 3 targets in 13 seconds at Night. How come resolution wasn't a problem for him ? Or the others? And the targets were not easy to see as they were unpainted, hanging with a Sage Filled hillside as a backdrop.

Hand holding a scope the worst thing you can do.

D3S_1361.jpg




I can;t find the image but even Ilya used a plywood V Cut Mount to test or a tripod with a rail on it ...
 
Frank,

Please tell me what ranges there are to shoot around here? The only one I know of is Quantico (Which I am a member of), but they have such shitty hours and the only range worth shooting is open maybe, once a month. Half the time, no RSO's show up and then you just wasted an hour drive, with traffic most likley.....
 
Where To Shoot | Find a Range

All kinds of resources on the internet

NSSF Members always appear at the top of the list in BOLD

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Clark's Gun Shop, Warrenton VA 20186
Colonial Shooting Academy, Richmond VA 23230 * * * * *
Izaak Walton League - Alexandria, Stafford VA 22554
Izaak Walton League - Loudoun County, Leesburg VA 20177
Izaak Walton League - Lynchburg, Amherst VA 24521
Izaak Walton League - Prince William, Bristow VA 20136
Page Valley Sportsman's Club, Luray VA 22835
Rabbit Ridge Enterprises, Ararat VA 24053
Range 82, LLC, Midland VA 22728
Sharp Shooters Small Arms Range, Lorton VA 22079
Silver Eagle Group, Ashburn VA 20147
Superior Pawn & Gun Hampton, Hampton VA 23669
Superior Pawn & Gun Indoor Range, Virginia Beach VA 23452


A & P Arms, Hampton VA 23666
Airfield Shooting Club, Wakefield VA 23888
Amelia Wildlife Management Area, Amelia Courthouse VA 23002
Arrowhead Gun Club, Inc., Chase City VA 23924
BATH COUNTY SHOOTING RANGE, Hot Springs VA 24445
Bedford Rifle & Revolver Club Inc, Bedford VA 24523
Big Woods Hunt Club/Hunters Clays, Inc., Washington VA 22747
Blackcreek Shooters Association, Mechanicsville VA 23111
Blacksburg Shooting Range, Jefferson National Forest, Newport VA 24128
Blue Ridge Shooters Club, Inc., Vesuivus VA 24483
Brookneal Sportsman Club, Brookneal VA 24528
Brushy Mountain Club, Gretna VA 24557
Buggs Island Fish & Wildlife Club Inc, Chase City VA 23924
C2 Shooting Center, Inc., Virginia Beach VA 23457
Camp David 2, Waverly VA 23890
Cavalier Rifle & Pistol Club, Montpelier VA 23192
Chickahominy Range, Charles City VA 23030
Conservation Park - Charles City, Charles City VA 23030
Dominion Shooting Range, Richmond VA 23225
Fairfax Rod & Gun Club, Manassas VA 20111
Firearms Novelity, LLC, Farmville VA 23901
Franklin County Gun Club, Rocky Mount VA 24151
Fredericksburg Rod & Gun Club, Fredericksburg VA 22408
Hite Hollow Shooting Range, Staunton VA 24401
Kettlefoot Rod & Gun Club, Bristol VA 24202
Lafayette Gun Club of Virginia, Inc., Yorktown VA 23692
Low Moor Shooting Range, Covington VA 24426
MCCS Camp Allen Indoor Shooting Range, Norfolk VA 23515
National Sportsman Association, Woodbridge VA 22195
Northern Virginia Gun Club, King George VA 22485
Nottoway Wildlife Association, Crewe VA 23930
NRA Headquarters Range, Fairfax VA 22030
On Target, Inc., Roanoke VA 24012
Piedmont Sportsman Club, Gordonsville VA 22942
POTTS SLOPE SHOOTING RANGE, New Castle VA 24127
PSS Range and Training, Roanoke VA 24012
Quantico Shooting Club, Quantico VA 22134
Richmond Gun Club, Charles City VA 23030
Rivanna Rifle & Pistol Club, Inc., Charlottesville VA 22901
Roanoke Rifle & Revolver Club, Inc., Hardy VA 24101
Southern Virginia Defensive Firearms Institute, Nelson VA 24580
Sussex Shooting Sports, Waverly VA 23890
Tactical Shooting Academy & Custom Shop, Surry VA 23883
The Homesteads Shooting Club, Hot Springs VA 24445
Triangle Sportsmens Club, Bluefield VA 24605
Virginia Beach Rifle & Pistol Club, Virginia Beach VA 23466
 
That had me wandering what I screwed up, makes sense now though.

And you are correct you eye must be aligned with the scope, I know this. When I compared scopes I use vee bags with heavy sand off a steady rest like a bench, or tripod. I do have a decent grasp on rifle scopes and how they should be set up and used. I am only trying to share my opinion on the subject at hand. I have not tried to say that there is only one way of doing things or that you can't get by with a little lesser quality. I am only saying that if all other things are equal then I delineate with optical quality. How you decide what you use is up to you and as long as you are happy then the world is good...
 
Some How I fucked up Jbell's post, not sure how I did that... was supposed to quote it.

This is the quote that I got from jbell: "So what you guys are saying is that a scopes optical quality actually improves after it is mounted on a rifle? Or is it that there is no way to tell how the scopes resolves a target with out actually shooting it?" Is the right one?

I am not sure I understand the first question, that a rifle scope's optical quality improves. I think having it mounted is helpful.

I think there is some validity to how well a scope tracks when making adjustments. I mean, how much have we REALLY tested the tracking accuracy of our scopes? I will eventually do this on my S&B, I just need more time between competitions.
 
Nevada,
I was being sarcastic. Having a scope mounted to a rifle does not change a damn thing in the optical quality of a scope or the ability to correctly see it. Nor will shooting a rifle with a particular scope change how well the intended target is resolved by that scope. No matter what anyone says it has nothing to do with anything. These questions were directed to the comments about holding a scope free hand or looking through your neighbors window at their TV to judge how good the optical quality a scope has. I have not said or alluded that this is how I have tested scopes (specifically a Kahles K624I that I was not very impressed with). These were just used to lower my credibility and there by render my thoughts uneducated opinions. Now I will be the first to say that the MOST important feature of a rifle scope is that it is mechanically sound, actually I have said this many times.
 
Actually Yes...

Mounting it gives it a more centered and steady platform than hand holding it. Being just slightly off center (which normally does not happen when mounted) can cause a problem. Stability matters.

This is why guys who actually test stuff lock them in a mount and don't free hand them.

Kahlesparallax.jpg



If these guys just held up the scope in their hand you'd be like WTF ?

Frank what makes you assume that I freehand a scope when I test it? Also what makes you think that I don't know what I am talking about when I test a scope? In case you are unaware you don't have to work for an optical company to understand what optical quality is and how to identify it. If a scope is unable to remove the parallax then there is a problem. If brand X scopes resolution is noticeably less than brand Y scopes resolution then there is a problem. If there is optical distortion in a scope then there is a problem. If there is a noticeably darker image between 2 different brands there is a problem (this one is the least important to me). These are some of the things I look for when I test a scopes optical quality. True I don't have a lot of expensive tools made specifically to measure these things like the guys who "actually test" scopes but I bet you don't either. However I am not going to take some guys word for it that the optical quality of a scope is where it should be just because they can measure it, I am going to see for my self, as you know everyones eyes are different.

But if you could be so kind to not put words in my mouth I would appreciate it. If you have a question as to how I do something you could just ask instead of assuming, I am more than happy to share.

As for the guys who hit the 8" plate at 600yds at night good for them. Again I never said that the quality of that specific scope would hinder my ability to effectively engage targets day or night. Quite the contrary, I said that scope was a very good scope and faired very well. However I was just expecting more based on what others have said and therefore was unsatisfied with it and sold it before I mounted it knowing I would not be happy with it. If I thought there was a problem with it I would have sent it back to Kahles to be inspected, but I knew there was nothing wrong with it, it just didn't blow the wind up my skirt...

I hope you understand where I am coming from with all this. I do actually appreciate what you do for this sport by providing this site which has some great people who have a lot more knowledge than I ever will.
 
Tell us how you checked the "resolution" as you put it ... ? Give us a run down of your process, and how are you sure you are "removing parallax" if you are holding it ? (or resting it on a bag) You know what parallax is right, and it's not "focus" so maybe we can start there. Explain the parallax issue to us.

What was your test target ? Throw us a image of the resolution chart you used ... we all want to try it.

I have consistently used it without any issue, and believe me if it had an issue sending it back would be a piece of cake. In fact I would just say, "something it wrong Kahles, take this back and give me a Gen 2" however it works flawlessly.

Now I will be the first to say that the MOST important feature of a rifle scope is that it is mechanically sound, actually I have said this many times.

Your words, yet you never mounted it...So tracking wasn't an issue. I stand behind my assertion that Bay Windows Reviewers are clueless and don't know what they are looking at. That hand holding the scope, even being off centered a bit can and does cause a problem. Not my fault you can't adjust it correctly. Maybe you thought it had to be perfect inside the detent and not between, cause sometimes you do need to put it between numbers. The detent can be deceptive.

Hell, 2 days before the Oregon Sniper Match I was using a different scope, cause I knew we'd be shooting inside 100 yards, down to 25 yards so I wanted a scope that would focus down that far. However getting my dope to distance I noticed I was 1.3 Mils off my known Dope (scope was mounted on Monday, wheels up Thursday) so checking tracking this scope was off and removed. I replaced it with the Kahles and voila it was dead nuts. Dope worked out perfect. Checked Zero in OR, never had to touch a thing. So your "known quantity" wasn't so perfect, yet the sub par Kahles, rocked the cat box.

Maybe the S&B you compared it too resolved to 2.8 and this resolved 3.0, maybe it was more, maybe less, but who the fuck cares as long as it works 100% Was it resolution, was it contrast, was it something else, a cloud that covered the sun when you were looking out your backyard. Who knows, could have been anything. But I will say the scope suits me perfectly and to constantly come on the board and say:

"I tested the Kahles again my S&B and it was noticeably darker" blah blah blah... how is "resolution" darker, resolution controls brightness now ? If you said blurry, not sharp, then maybe you have a point -- Darker ? That sounds an awful like contrast, and coatings, not resolution. Same thing guys confuse with the NF, no color, no pop, so the resolution is off, when it has nothing to do with resolution.

And please don't patronize me with your BS about what I do for the sport.

But please, explain your resolution test to us. And PS I do have resolution charts from Edmund, I have several kinds in fact, to include color ones.
 
Frank did you even read a word that I had said in any of the post that you refer to? You know I guess you are right I have no clue what I am talking about. There is no way I could ever test if a scope can correct parallax, or compare the resolution between two scopes, or any thing else for that matter. I am done here because it is apparent you are only going to hear what you want to hear.

For the record I was being sincere when I said thank you. I have not tried to be malicious in anything that I have said through out this whole time when you have continue to slander me. I guess you are the only person who has a fucking clue, and I am happy for you.

I am sorry for getting this thread off track so I will keep my uneducated falsely based comments to myself.
 
Yes, the same Glass in ATACR as the BEAST

The BEAST and ATACR are the exact same quality and clarity of glass. No speculation there. You are paying
For the ffp, digital illumination, and high speed turrets in the beast - not higher quality glass.
PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg

Just wanted to agree that the glass is the same as per factory customer service today.

11 weeks out on custom ATACR build if ordered from factory.