ATF gearing up to ban braces

[deersniper]

I know some of you pit dwellers own firearms but don’t know there are tech forums here.

Heads up looks like atf in the middle stages of banning braces:

Email from Q - ATF issues Cease & Desist for Honey Badger Pistol *UPDATE*

Anyone else get this email from Q...WTF?

www.snipershide.com

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Killing all the lawyers will be a good start

 

[JbBooks]

As I posted in the other post, it may be a length of pull issue with their brace, their brace looks longer than their sbr stock, I think it’s something like 12.75” max lop on braces

 

[10ring'r]

Any more F'n stress we can be put thru?? Retirement just F'n sucks, I'm going back to work. Mac

 

[Edgecrusher]

This is why I never got on the brace train and just SBR'd. After Don folded on the bump stock issue I knew this day would come. Tired of winning?

 

[E. Bryant]

As I posted in the other post, it may be a length of pull issue with their brace, their brace looks longer than their sbr stock, I think it’s something like 12.75” max lop on braces

Yeah, well, LOP can be influenced by a number of other factors as well - like the presence of a folding adapter. If that's the standard by which we're going to determine "stock" vs "brace", then they ATF needs to publish guidance accordingly.

Better yet, Congress needs to reign in this creature.

 

[JbBooks]

Yeah, well, LOP can be influenced by a number of other factors as well - like the presence of a folding adapter. If that's the standard by which we're going to determine "stock" vs "brace", then they ATF needs to publish guidance accordingly.

Better yet, Congress needs to reign in this creature.

I 100% agree, rein em in, but they do have a lop requirement

 

[IrishWind]

I was on a different board when Sig announced braces in their line up. 1/2 the board was screaming legal, back door SBRs without stamps. The other half, including me, were WTF someone wants go to Federal Ram Me Up The Ass Prison over a $200 stamp. And then the ATF getting pestered with opinion questions after the Sig Brace hitting the market it was no shock that eventually the ATF gave up and issued their 'you shoulder it, you go to jail' opinion. Only DJT getting sworn in caused them to reverse that letter. But yeah, we gun owners can be our own worst enemy. Instead of getting DJT and a RNC Congress to pass laws we like, we're out screaming over bump stocks and I predict 'fuel filter/solvert traps' in the near future. Two years wasted.

 

[Jscb1b]

One bite at a time.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

And Trump could put a stop to this nonsense with 1 signature!!

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[E. Bryant]

I 100% agree, rein em in, but they do have a lop requirement

There has been no formal requirement - just a "grey area":

ATF Says That Shouldering Shockwave Blade is Okay! - Shockwave Technologies

Okay, Shoulder your Brace! I just got off the phone with a very nice gentleman at ATF Tech Branch—who was fielding these calls today. (He was, understandably, very well versed on the subject—and very nice about it even though he’s been on the phone all day, repeating himself ad nauseam.) I...

shockwavetechnologies.com

When it comes to $10k and 10 years in jail, we shouldn't need tiptoe around a "grey area".

 

[OldSalty2]

Meh, it will help reduce crime so I guess it cant be that bad. After all, look at how many crimes are committed with a weapon sporting a brace....

 

[Krob95]

Hi,

And Trump could put a stop to this nonsense with 1 signature!!

Sincerely,
Theis

You would think, especially with his son shooting fancy built custom rifles that are all donated to him, but highly unlikely it’ll change. I hope to be proven wrong but it’s not looking too good

 

[GUN NUT in IA]

I do not evaluate a politician on their "gun support" based on the numbers of law they refuse to make / sign / enforce.

I prefer to evaluate them on the number of laws they repeal.

So far I have not favorably evaluated any politician as a "gun supporter".

 

[JbBooks]

There has been no formal requirement - just a "grey area":

ATF Says That Shouldering Shockwave Blade is Okay! - Shockwave Technologies

Okay, Shoulder your Brace! I just got off the phone with a very nice gentleman at ATF Tech Branch—who was fielding these calls today. (He was, understandably, very well versed on the subject—and very nice about it even though he’s been on the phone all day, repeating himself ad nauseam.) I...

shockwavetechnologies.com

When it comes to $10k and 10 years in jail, we shouldn't need tiptoe around a "grey area".

You’re right, there is no actual length specified, all it says is rifle lop is between 13.5 and 14.5, and braces should not be consistent with that length of pull, a whole bunch of grey area!

 

[deersniper]

I was on a different board when Sig announced braces in their line up. 1/2 the board was screaming legal, back door SBRs without stamps. The other half, including me, were WTF someone wants go to Federal Ram Me Up The Ass Prison over a $200 stamp. And then the ATF getting pestered with opinion questions after the Sig Brace hitting the market it was no shock that eventually the ATF gave up and issued their 'you shoulder it, you go to jail' opinion. Only DJT getting sworn in caused them to reverse that letter. But yeah, we gun owners can be our own worst enemy. Instead of getting DJT and a RNC Congress to pass laws we like, we're out screaming over bump stocks and I predict 'fuel filter/solvert traps' in the near future. Two years wasted.

Sig is awesome. They are great for expanding our freedoms back to where they should be.

Check out this that they were trying to sell. Lol. File a form 1 and screw a tube on and you have a silencer

ATF Rules Against SIG SAUER MPX | Buckeye Firearms Association

While filming last season's studio segments for "Guns & Gear" TV, SIG SAUER brought several of their new guns to the studio as highlights of their 2014 products. One caught the eye of everyone -including production crew members who normally had no interest. It was, even to a "gun person" a...

www.buckeyefirearms.org

 

[Doc68]

ATF cant make laws

Will NOT comply. I will die on this hill if need be.

Doc

 

[gunjunkie45]

I'll be keeping mine because fuck you.

 

[gunjunkie45]

ATF cant make laws

Will NOT comply. I will die on this hill if need be.

Doc

I'm with you 100%.

 

[deersniper]

I'll be keeping mine because fuck you.

Might as well put a stock on at that point

We live in upside down bizarro world

 

[gunjunkie45]

My line has been drawn.

 

[TexPatriot]

I'll be keeping mine because fuck you.

If you like your doctor brace...

 

[gunjunkie45]

No work around or loopholes... I'm done. Any new gun law from this day forward will not apply to me. I am a free man. I will die on this hill.

 

[acudaowner]

get them before they are gone or worse . all my guns went down with the boat in a freak boating accident out there in the ocean way out there .

 

[deersniper]

get them before they are gone or worse .

Why?

At that point just use stocks.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

You would think, especially with his son shooting fancy built custom rifles that are all donated to him

You need to stick to the facts. What you just stated is not true at all. In short, you dont know what the fuck you are talking about.

 

[Krob95]

You need to stick to the facts. What you just stated is not true at all. In short, you dont know what the fuck you are talking about.

If you say so buddy

 

[gunjunkie45]

If you say so buddy

You are pretty full of shit. Trust in armorpl8chikn.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

If you say so buddy

I dont say so, I know so. You may indeed be a smart guy, and im not saying you are full of shit.
However, in this particular instance, you are absolutely, categorically, wrong.

 

[Jgunner]

How many sbr’s or pistol ar’s have been used in crimes?

reason to not sbr: needing Letter From your masters to cross state lines. Can’t hamb hunt with a rifle. Forever a class 3 item and not easy to sell.

 

[Krob95]

I dont say so, I know so. You may indeed be a smart guy, and im not saying you are full of shit.
However, in this particular instance, you are absolutely, categorically, wrong.

Hey man. I’m just going off of what it seems like on Instagram. But I suppose with all social media, it doesn’t paint the whole picture. So thank you for the correction.

 

[IrishWind]

Sig is awesome. They are great for expanding our freedoms back to where they should be.

Check out this that they were trying to sell. Lol. File a form 1 and screw a tube on and you have a silencer

View attachment 7440447

ATF Rules Against SIG SAUER MPX | Buckeye Firearms Association

While filming last season's studio segments for "Guns & Gear" TV, SIG SAUER brought several of their new guns to the studio as highlights of their 2014 products. One caught the eye of everyone -including production crew members who normally had no interest. It was, even to a "gun person" a...

www.buckeyefirearms.org

The same Sig (Sig-USA) that violated Germany's export laws for a quick buck by selling German made Sigs to a war zone in violation of German laws? And pissed of Germany to the point that they changed their position to stop Sig Germany from exporting their guns outside Germany. And last I heard, Sig Germany closed their doors for good. So now if you want a German Sig, you either buy used, hope some shop has old, NIB collecting dust in the back, or find a third party importer to bring old Sigs or Swiss Arms into the country. Great Job in taking care of your customers in the USA!

And please tell me how that 'brake' will work? From that photo, the second thing I notice is the angle of the baffles would push the muzzle up. Isn't one of the features of a brake is supposed to reduce muzzle rise? First thing is it looks just like many monocore baffles for suppressors out there. In what world did Sig think the ATF wouldn't notice either? Sig knew better, and it is still a shame they tried any way.

And I won't even start on Sig-USA passing their R&D onto the customers by releasing weapons before they're ready. What Gen are we on with the MPX or MCX now? I used to be a huge fan of Sig in the 90s and early 2000s. But not anymore.

 

[SilentStalkr]

And we care because? When people are actively killing, raping, burning, looting, taking over sovereign territory and claiming it as their own and not shit is being done to the bulk of them? Then why on earth would someone follow such nonsense. Either apply laws equally or not at all. As soon as all the other shit and people are prosecuted for, then I might, just might consider this nonsense but not until then. I think we have bigger fish to fry than worrying about a stupid brace. Just my opinion. Either way, I haven’t heard anything from anyone I know in the ATF and I’m not worrying about what Q says lol. Lmao, I thought you meant Q like the conspiracy guy, not Q the firearms manufacturer. I think in this case it only relates to this specific case!

PS...you can’t keep flip flopping on laws. It either is or it ain’t, we either have rights or we don’t. People grow tired of legal, illegal, legal, illegal. Ridiculous. Make a damn ruling and stick to it. Otherwise, we look foolish. I swear this country is becoming dumber by the minute.

 

[Aries256]

Chip chip chippin away the 2nd amendment, and yet nothing is done to stop it. Imagine if antifa controlled bidoof gets in. Oh it will get exponentially worse.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Chip chip chippin away the 2nd amendment, and yet nothing is done to stop it. Imagine if antifa controlled bidoof gets in. Oh it will get exponentially worse.

They claim they coming to take them...think anything happens then?

 

[OldSalty2]

They claim they coming to take them...think anything happens then?

Rhetorical?

 

[TexPatriot]

So a communist, criminal organization, formally known as the Democrat party, is going to come and take Americans guns?

"Don't reach for them, just tell us where they are and we'll get them."

Lol...no.

 

[Aries256]

They claim they coming to take them...think anything happens then?

Well they’re emboldened, treasonous, stupid enough and crazy enough to try this time imo. I mean yeah they’re gonna get their asses handed to them, but i also didnt expect a lot of shit they tried this year to fly. Yet here we are, looters, and attackers are left untouched, and those defending themselves arrested. Yes I know what will happen then, and overall none of us want that.

 

[Ctrapp]

I was afraid of this happening in 2020. Glad I ditched the pistols and went to a bullpup.

 

[E. Bryant]

Hey man. I’m just going off of what it seems like on Instagram. But I suppose with all social media, it doesn’t paint the whole picture. So thank you for the correction.

Whether Don Jr pays for his own guns or has them gifted has about as much effect on his personal finances as mine are affected when my kids get a free piece of candy at the credit union. It's a non-issue; when one is worth some untold millions of dollars, a Q Fix or whatever piece of ugliness that Spikes is pushing at the moment are truly trivial in cost.

Now, if someone showed me evidence that Don Jr had, say, jumped to the front of the tax stamp line, or was allowed to possess a post-'86 machine gun, or was able to exercise some other privilege that us plebs aren't allowed, then maybe I'd get a bit pissed. But as far as I know, that's not what is being alleged by anyone.

 

[Doc68]

 

[2ndamendfan]

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Disclaimer: I completely agree the BATFE needs to be reigned in but in reality it is the SCOTUS that needs to remove the 2A restrictions and limitations imposed onto it. That is pretty much the only way to stop things like this from occurring now but also in the future.

That being said----

The firearms industry can be its' own worse enemy at times if we were all being completely and brutally honest...

Pistol braces came about as a pure "F*ck You" to what was the written regulations at the time. It was like a 3 year old throwing a fit because was told to pick up his garbage and he picked it up but just moved it 2 feet and sat it back down.

Solvent traps came about as a pure "Hold my beer and watch this" in regards to lets see if we can get the BATFE attention.

Like it or not when you signed the terms of your FFL, you acknowledge to abide and uphold the BATFE regulations so the industry needs to stop fucking with its' "Parent" and then cry when that "Parent" slaps the taste out of your mouth for being a smartass.

As much as I agree there should not be any reason for BATFE to have any say on braces, shit..on pretty much anything firearm related; that is just not the way laws are upheld here on this land at this time. So stop poking the bear before you call down the thunder and ruin more rights for more people.

The old saying of "Let sleeping dogs lay"........

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[2ndamendfan]

Hi,

Disclaimer: I completely agree the BATFE needs to be reigned in but in reality it is the SCOTUS that needs to remove the 2A restrictions and limitations imposed onto it. That is pretty much the only way to stop things like this from occurring now but also in the future.

That being said----

The firearms industry can be its' own worse enemy at times if we were all being completely and brutally honest...

Pistol braces came about as a pure "F*ck You" to what was the written regulations at the time. It was like a 3 year old throwing a fit because was told to pick up his garbage and he picked it up but just moved it 2 feet and sat it back down.

Solvent traps came about as a pure "Hold my beer and watch this" in regards to lets see if we can get the BATFE attention.

Like it or not when you signed the terms of your FFL, you acknowledge to abide and uphold the BATFE regulations so the industry needs to stop fucking with its' "Parent" and then cry when that "Parent" slaps the taste out of your mouth for being a smartass.

As much as I agree there should not be any reason for BATFE to have any say on braces, shit..on pretty much anything firearm related; that is just not the way laws are upheld here on this land at this time. So stop poking the bear before you call down the thunder and ruin more rights for more people.

The old saying of "Let sleeping dogs lay"........

Sincerely,
Theis

You left out bump stocks.

It would appear to either be human nature or at least USA citizens nature to raise a middle finger and say "catch me if you can".

the exact same thing has happened in the diesel tuning world.

 

[E. Bryant]

You left out bump stocks.

It would appear to either be human nature or at least USA citizens nature to raise a middle finger and say "catch me if you can".

the exact same thing has happened in the diesel tuning world.

Honestly, it doesn't matter what the industry - anyone with a big enough set of balls to go into business for himself is probably going to use those balls to get into trouble with authority figures. Anyone successful has heard "You can't do that!!!" and ignored it so many times that it eventually doesn't matter who is saying it - the ATF, EPA, IRS, whomever.

That works up until it doesn't. Subjugating one's ego is essential in avoiding that problem. Anyone who's listened to one of Kevin Brittingham's podcasts or read a Q LLC Instagram post should work get the idea that there is an ego gone wild. It's abusing as all hell when he's dishing dirt on Remington or dunking on SIG, but at the end of the day, the ATF is the *real* honey badger.

Obviously, the blame is not solely on Q and SB; the ATF rules by adminstrative law using terms like "grey area", and that's fucked up in so many ways.

 

[Clover_Jack]

Maybe a stupid question... but what if someone were to just remove the brace and shoulder the buffer tube? Obviously not the most comfortable or desirable solution, but would it be legal?

Fair warning: If this is indeed a stupid question, I'm just going to claim I was being sarcastic.

 

[TexPatriot]

So a fundamental question. Unless one posts pics on FB and gun forums, how would ATF and their minions know someone has a brace? Monitoring online sales?

Or are they going to default to 'Anyone found to be in possession of a brace after -- date will be charged with a felony.'

 

[E. Bryant]

Maybe a stupid question... but what if someone were to just remove the brace and shoulder the buffer tube? Obviously not the most comfortable or desirable solution, but would it be legal?

Fair warning: If this is indeed a stupid question, I'm just going to claim I was being sarcastic.

Not stupid at all. Prior to the invention and approval of braces, there were dedicated pistol buffer tubes, and people would often put rubber tips (such as the no-slip tips for walking canes) on the end to improve comfort. It sucked, to be honest.

So a fundamental question. Unless one posts pics on FB and gun forums, how would ATF and their minions know someone has a brace? Monitoring online sales?

Or are they going to default to 'Anyone found to be in possession of a brace after -- date will be charged with a felony.'

Both. We already know that the ATF is chasing down other NFA parts that were purchased online (presumably based upon bulk electronic surveillance of purchase records). And we know how possession will be treated (even if it's "constructive possession"). This shouldn't come as any surprise, although I'm sure that there will be plenty of that reaction in the weeks and months to come.

Assume that there are already multiple paths by which the feds and various private entities know what you own. Assuming that one didn't generate an electronic trail by purchasing, say, an SBA3 brace in FDE from Brownells on 7/27/2019 at 12:19PM using card # 1234 4567 0910 1112 and the email address [email protected], then they can find out when you snap a picture of your build using your cloud-connected phone (no forum or Twatfacegram required).

And it's actually wise than that; using your online activity (scraped from a variety of sources), they might be able to figure out that you likely own a brace based solely upon your habits and conversations.

Welcome to 2020.

 

[Clover_Jack]

@E. Bryant thanks for the response, I'm picking up what you're putting down, despite having joined the scene after braces were already a thing. I actually have a spare pistol buffer tube from strike, partially the reason for my curiosity.

I guess I was more wondering as to how far this ban is going to extend. Is there any chance that even with just a buffer tube you'll have to classify the pistol as an sbr instead? Or is the consensus on here that they will still be allowed?

 

[seanh]

ATF will track all sales. They will send out a letter and when they don't get the appropriate responses they will send somebody to the home of the original purchaser... And track it out there after.

The whole innocent until proven guilty goes out the window... Still have evidence of your purchase, it's up to you to prove the destruction of the device or turn it in or pay your $200 tax stamp.