Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

[cavscout1983]

http://jonbhorton.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/atomic-bombs-japan-remembered/

(Just added)Part 2: http://jonbhorton.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/atomic-bombs-japan-remembered-pt-2/

Well, today is the anniversary of the bombing of Nagasaki.

I get really damn sick of hearing how "awful" it was, as if everyone forgets how absolutely insane and brutal the Japanese were.

I put this blog post together in the hopes that some of the information I've been fortunate to find, through the research of others, can help us remember WHY we did it.

Regards,

Jon

 

[Wolvenhaven]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

When people mention how horrible it was, and how many people died, and how it was unnecessary. I remind them that more people died during the fire bombing of Tokyo which they have no problems with because it was "conventional" than died in either Hiroshima or Nagasaki. The problem being, generally those people are to truth what ducks are to water.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

The War department had placed an order for one million purple heart medals to be manufactured prior to the invasion of Mainland Japan.

They had no illusions about what lay ahead for the soldiers, sailors, Air Corps pilots and Marines.

Loss of life in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was nothing compared to the loss of civilian (and military) lives that would have occurred had the Allies invaded mainland Japan. And Japan was not on the verge of surrender.

The military there was so unwilling to capitulate that they tried to kill the courier carrying the record of Emperor Hirohito's voice being taken to radio broadcast the Emperor's message of surrender. The country would have committed national hara kiri under Tojo et al.

IMHO, one GI going home to his family in 1945 was worth the whole population of either city. Then again, I am an unsympathetic SOB. So there.

Bombs away.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[500grains]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

I hope no one from DC went over to apologize.

 

[cavscout1983]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

One of my High School teachers had been a missionary's kid in the Philippines when the Japanese invaded. He spent a few years, as a teen, in a concentration camp outside of Manila. The most we got out of him about the experience was pretty much, "the happiest day was when the US Army raided the camp and freed us". Outside of that, he couldn't really bring himself to talk about it.

He made short mention of seeing friends who had gone off before the rounding up and joined militia. They got to experience Japanese "creativity" in view of the entire camp when they got caught, including their parents.

He mentioned that they eventually faced total starvation and resorted to eating rats and bugs.

I have no qualms at all about the bombing. The Japanese brought it on themselves.

 

[ggmanning]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

When you start a fight with a capable adversary don't be suprised if you get punched in the mouth. At least our military was allowed the luxury of fighting to win without as much BS politics and ROE's as later conflicts. Consider me in the same boat as sirhr....unsympathetic SOB.

 

[Johnny Sasaki]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Then again, I am an unsympathetic SOB. So there.

Bombs away. </div></div>

You and me both.

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

We did what needed to be done, but if you ever travel to Hiroshima and see the shadows that still remain, you hope it never has to happen again.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

You fuck with the bull, you get the horns.

Those were the days.

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

For those interested in this topic, I highly suggest Richard Rhode's "The Making of the Atomic Bomb". It's incredibly rich with not just the history of nuclear weapon development, but also the context in which it was first deployed.

 

[cavscout1983]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

Ended up doing a Part 2 since I was getting a bunch of historically ignorant jackasses flooding me with stupid comments, consisting of their labia majora flapping all over the place.

http://jonbhorton.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/atomic-bombs-japan-remembered-pt-2/

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those interested in this topic, I highly suggest Richard Rhode's "The Making of the Atomic Bomb". It's incredibly rich with not just the history of nuclear weapon development, but also the context in which it was first deployed. </div></div>

I have read this. It is absolutely an amazing book. And delves deeply into the decision process. While it is 'non-judgemental' regarding the final decision, my opinion after reading was that the facts of the time clearly pointed to using the bombs just as they were used.

It was only Nagasaki's bad luck that the primary was under weather that day and could not be bombed. I think it was Kokura that was the primary target.

Amazing book... makes physics read like a thriller and brilliantly researched.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Sgt. 0811]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

Always a hard topic for my wife and I, we are both Half Japanese. Her family suffered incredible loss in Japan. My family had already moved to the US and my Grandfather wittnessed the bombing of pearl harbor, he was working on the docks durring the attack. Both of us had family members imprisoned in the camps, simply for being Japanese.
Of course We both know how long the war would have gone on for if it were not for the Atomic bombs and we know our families may have been in those camps for much longer. Ill die for America, but still very sad so many innocent people had to die.

 

[wildmanjeff]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

easy to say about the bull---someday we may not be the bull--

 

[longguntoter]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

I spent 3 months in Japan and 7 months on Okinawa, while in the Marines. I saw, for the most part, a Japanese populace that did not like Americans and for some of that I understood, but most of the guys I hung around did not treat the Japanese bad in any way. Still, they did not like us.

Fast forward to today, and I have a 16 year old daughter who thinks the Japanese are the next best thing since sliced bread. Sigh.

My father was in the Army Air Corps at Pearl Harbor when it was attacked, and he spent the next three years as a gunner on a B-25, that is until he got shot up and sent home in 1944. Now, my experience growing up was different than my kids had/have, but I don't understand why they think Japan is so damn great. Must be all the Japanamation I guess.

The one thing I noticed about the average Japanese is that they did not give a crap about anyone else, so why do so many young Americans think they are so great? Burns me up. Also, being as though the Japs started WWII by attacking us, then they got what they deserved.

I guess the American people need to ask themselves this one thing, that is "What would the Japanese have done to us if they would have won the war"? I'm damn sure they would not have been as nice to us as we were to them.

In conclusion, I think not only did the dropping of the A-bomb save thousands of American lives, but in the end it saved thousands of Japanese lives as well. I would venture to bet the death toll of Japanese lives would have been higher if we would have continued the war on a conventional basis. Just my thoughts.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

My kid, (who retired from the Navy last Oct.) got in trouble when he stationed at Pearl Harbor.

He was visiting the Arizona Memorial when some Japanese Tourist asked "where is the Arizona"?

My kid looked at her and says "at the bottom of the harbor where you left it".

The Japanese Tour Guide thought that was Rude.

 

[rusty815]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

I had a Japanese friend who refused to admit that the atomic bomb helped save lives, after all how can a large loss of life save lives? I showed him the plans for Operation Downfall, the Allied invasion plan of mainland Japan, and the projected casualties it would take to conquer Japan. It was an estimated 1.7-4 million American deaths and 5-10 million Japanese. Roughly 300000 Japanese were killed by the bombing and later by its affects, I say 300000 vs. 6.7-14 million is saving lives. It was a tragedy that it had to be that way, but it was a necessary tragedy.

 

[Parallax]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

Ran in the "Ashland Daily Press", Ashland,Wisconsin.... sez it all.

 

[smutly]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

You'll need a bigger boat, I also am an unsympathetic sob. My Dad and several uncles in the Pacific in WW2 one uncle got beat up pretty bad by the Japs.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Parallax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Ran in the "Ashland Daily Press", Ashland,Wisconsin.... sez it all.</div></div>
Parallax, that post says it all. Any sumbitch who whines and complains and snivels about the 'loss of lives' bullshit at the former sites of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have only their fellow countrymen to thank for it all. I'm sure that we (the good guys and ladies) did not ask to be attacked, invaded, enslaved, raped, murdered, imprisoned, tortured, and disdained.

For one 'people' to look upon all others with impunity (anywhere) is wrong at the core. Take a hard look at the core.

Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition.

Pissed off and somewhat intolerant, right now.

 

[luckydube56]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

That's great the Japanese remember the atmoic bomb because there seems to be a whole lot they dont remember. Their educational system refuses to mention much of World War 2 history. Pearl Harbour? Bataan Death March? The Rape of Nanking? The rape of S Korea?

The Japanese culture and government is wrapped up in the concepts of honor and shame. As such, they refuse to acknowledge their own atrocities. Even today, their presence in other Asian countries is not welcome.

 

[Sgt. 0811]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

Longguntoter,
Amazing, how there is still an overwhelming amount of racism. Terms like Japs, coming from fellow Marines, your a disgrace and a poor excuse for a man.
I hope your daughter marries a "Jap" fucking ignorant bigot.

Posts like that waste of space remind me that, although the Hide is generally a place of good people its still the internet. Lost some faith in the Hide today.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

I'm sorry, I must have missed something...

Hasn't WWII been over with for 67 years or so?

In other news, young Americans are currently dying in Iraq, Afghanistan...

 

[Sgt. 0811]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry, I must have missed something...

Hasn't WWII been over with for 67 years or so?

In other news, young Americans are currently dying in Iraq, Afghanistan... </div></div>

+1

 

[shootist2004]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My kid, (who retired from the Navy last Oct.) got in trouble when he stationed at Pearl Harbor.

He was visiting the Arizona Memorial when some Japanese Tourist asked "where is the Arizona"?

My kid looked at her and says "at the bottom of the harbor where you left it".

The Japanese Tour Guide thought that was Rude. </div></div>

Now that's fucking funny!!!!!!!

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Amazing, how there is still an overwhelming amount of racism. </div></div>

On both sides. The Japanese consider any thing "gaijin" as barbaric. The word is used the same as the KKK uses the N-word.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Amazing, how there is still an overwhelming amount of racism. </div></div>

On both sides. The Japanese consider any thing "gaijin" as barbaric. The word is used the same as the KKK uses the N-word. </div></div>

Most groups have something like that. The jews think of all non jews as "Goy", or unclean. The gypsies have a similar term, and to the Muslim we are all Infidels. Yet if yuo get behind all the horseshit you find we are all pretty much the same.

 

[athhud]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

Do Britts, Swedes, and Aussies take offense to those terms? Keeping up with the PC shit these days requires far more effort than I'm willing to put into it....

 

[Bad-Andy]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

Afaik, calling someone a Britt, Swede, or Aussie(which Australians use to refer to themselves), was never considered derogatory. On the other hand, Japs is akin to Ni**er from what I've seen.

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yet if yuo get behind all the horseshit you find we are all pretty much the same.</div></div>

Genesis 11:9

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

Japanese have traditionally held the view that all <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Gaijin</span></span> are inferior. It is a racist attitude that has permeated the Japanese culture since the days of Shogunate. For a Japanese to call a <span style="font-style: italic">Gaijin</span> 'rude' is redundant. By implication, all <span style="font-style: italic">Gaijin</span> are barbarians, and are rude without needing any such description.

This racism was the motivating force behind the <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Asian Holocaust</span></span> perpetrated by the Imperial Japanese Forces in WWII. Despite much subsequent denial and face saving since that war, it still perisists widely in today's Japanese culture.

We Marines are instructed in such history as part of our Boot Camp indoctrination. It is part of how we became who we are.

I don't mind that the Japanese hold us Americans in contempt. It's only fair. For a few of us older Marines, the feelings are mutual.

Just as my Brother would never buy a bottle of French wine while de Gaulle was alive, I will extend warmth toward Japan when Bushido and the Emperor are actually history. Odds do not favor my living so long.

Greg

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

For a fun twist, there's been a few occasions where a 'superior' Japanese needed to learn just a little 'humility'. So I would thank him. In Korean.


Oh, let me tell you... they DON'T LIKE that. he he he.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

Thank You.

So sorry...

 

[Maggot]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yet if yuo get behind all the horseshit you find we are all pretty much the same.</div></div>

Genesis 11:9 </div></div>

And this, besides being religious, has what to do with my statement?

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We Marines are instructed in such history as part of our Boot Camp indoctrination. It is part of how we became who we are.</div></div>

I remember being "indoctrinated" after arrival on Okinawa and later the mainland. The briefings usually ended with, "Remember, you are a guest." Never felt like a welcomed guest. I guess it's true, second place does suck.

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maggot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yet if yuo get behind all the horseshit you find we are all pretty much the same.</div></div>

Genesis 11:9 </div></div>

And this, besides being religious, has what to do with my statement? </div></div>

Did you check the reference?

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

AFAIK, Gulf War I was the first war in US history when the military didn't institutionalize the use of race and racism as a motivational tool. I remember WWII training films of bayonet drills when the trainees were encouraged to shout racial epithets as they stuck the target. I guess they figured it was easier to get farmboys from Pascagoula riled up enough to stick a knife into a complete stranger if he'd been conditioned to hate him for the color of his skin ...or the iron eagle on his tunic. War Department propaganda posters in both World Wars promoted racial and ethnic stereotypes to foment civilian hatred of "the enemy," both to dehumanize them and to help Americans justify sending their sons off to war. It was a common tactic up until Vietnam, after which I guess the PC got too thick, or maybe the US just got too multicultural.

You can search on racist war posters and find plenty of them but I haven't posted any of them here to try to keep a lid on this thread.

The US dropped more tons of conventional bombs on Tokyo than the combined yields of the Fat Man and Little Boy. Casualty counts are pretty inexact but at least half as many Japanese were burned to death -- a pretty gruesome way to go -- in the fires started by the conventional bombings as were killed by both the atomic bombs combined. At war's end, the Allies had air supremacy and could have reigned conventional bombs down on Japan endlessly and with impunity. Anyone who denies the atomic bombs saved lives either is willfully ignorant or still harbors the belief the Japanese could have pulled it out.

 

[Rthur]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

On another note, how many American lives were lost as a result of the war with Japan? It seems to be the same every time these anniversaries come around. No one can remember the atrocities they committed. I think this could cover all nations/colors, ethnic groups ect.

Kinda like creating a cluster over a video you disagree with.

 

[MtnCreek]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

Maybe a little off topic, but it may well be that the atomic bombing of Japan is what kept the soviets from continuing Westward.

As far as the race issue some have raised, would it be racist if I referred to the Nazis as krauts? Is that also racist or does it not count because they’re white?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

I think the general concensus was that a good historical discussion doesn't need pejorative language to get points across.

Doesn't have to do with being politically correct or thin-skinned, IMHO. It just as to do with showing respect for our fellow SH members, who come from every background you can imagine.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[MontanaKid]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My kid, (who retired from the Navy last Oct.) got in trouble when he stationed at Pearl Harbor.

He was visiting the Arizona Memorial when some Japanese Tourist asked "where is the Arizona"?

My kid looked at her and says "at the bottom of the harbor where you left it".

The Japanese Tour Guide thought that was Rude. </div></div>

Good for him.

 

[Wes_Mantooth]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

"Jap" was about the kindest thing my grandgfather could call a Japanese person. Believe me I heard many words describing the people of Japan. Of course he limped until the end of his days because of an encounter with the Japanese in the south Pacific.

I'm sure the people of Japan would feel much better if we had invaded with ground forces.

If nothing else, we should take from that war that our forefathers knew what it takes to win a war. Something we have never achieved since.

 

[Guy Montag]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SfPwR00HXM0&feature=related"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SfPwR00HXM0&feature=related" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>


Questioning the use of atomic weapons doesn't excuse Japanese atrocities.

The strategic necessity of dropping atomic weapons on Japan is not as simple as you're suggesting.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

^^^ That is one amazing documentary.

Before he died, Robert McNamara is the person from the 20th century who I most wanted to meet. Probably one of the most interesting people in all history. To have had just a few minutes to talk with him would have been incredible.

See that film... I have the DVD. It is amazing on so many levels.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Hunt4life]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

Well, if they did not want to get blown to hell, I guess they should not have attacked Pearl Harbor without a declaration of war. The largest Terrorist act in history at that time.

We also told them they were to face complete and utter destruction if they did not surrender. They wanted leverage to bring the war to an end on their terms and frankly, they deserved no terms.

War is Hell. Many in command knew it was a mistake to kick the sleeping giant.

 

[dbsinh2o]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

Amazing what you'll find laying around in the desert.

 

[t185]

Re: Atomic Bombs: Japan Remembered

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Parallax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Ran in the "Ashland Daily Press", Ashland,Wisconsin.... sez it all. </div></div>

This^