BA .308 SA 1,000 yards?

[HousePlant]

I suspect Federal ammo uses Sierra 168MK which are not recommend for 1000yd because of instability (I expect someone to respond that they can hit 10"gong at 1000yd with this bullet all day long)

Yes, Sierra Match-King bullets. I couldn't get to 1100 or 1200. Well, I hit the 1100 once but barely and I didn't see it... my spotter said I did and he said it was a "really light hit". The 1200 yard plate... no idea where the bullet went when I shot at it. No splash, no nothing. It was gone.

At 1,000 though... 1,000 yards wasn't a problem to hit (when the scope's elevation for that yardage was validated). It wasn't a strong plate-moving, white paint destroying hit. But it hit. About 10 times total that weekend, actually out of maybe 14 total shots at it. Not a ton of wind though.

 

[Nik H]

I recently went back to 308 from 6.5 Creedmoor. I use the original LW barrel that was installed on my AT. Shoot 175 grain SMKs out if it. I really forget how pleasant it is to shoot this cartridge. It is more challenging to shoot than the 6.5 CM cartridge but 1,000 yards is not an issue.

I recently spun up a 26" Krieger MTU contour barrel for my AT. It is a 4 groove 10 twist barrel. Chambered to shoot the Berger 185 cartridge. I don't reload so I am at the mercy of factory. I can tell you that I like this cartridge a lot. Works pretty damn well at 1,000 yards even in high wind. Hope to try it to longer ranges in the springtime. I know it will shoot to 1,300 without fail.

 

[steve podleski]

I suspect Federal ammo uses Sierra 168MK which are not recommend for 1000yd because of instability (I expect someone to respond that they can hit 10"gong at 1000yd with this bullet all day long)

The 168MK keyholes at 1000yd. I have pulled many target and saw those keyholes during 1000yd matches. If you can get the Federal ammo with Sierra 175MK or 190MK or Berger 168 or Sierra 168TMK.

 

[eastexsteve]

Hey guy's quick question for you.

I am building my first long range rifle and wanted to get some feed back from the Pro's. I picked up a stock remington 700 sa that has an 18" tactical barrel.
Planning on dropping it into a Cadex chassis. Would a 26'" barrel get me to the 1,000 yard mark? Is there anything else besides the barrel and trigger I should change to push this gun as far a possible?

Currently not doing any competitions, but I would like to once I get this rifle where it needs to be to compete.
I have been reading a lot of mixed reviews when it comes to mags. Can anyone here vouch for the Magpul mags? I was leaning toward the AI mags, because it seems like they are fail proof. Definitely a price difference.

The 18" will get you to 1,000. A 24" or 26" will work better. You will see all the 6.5 fanboys chiming in here, but if 1,000 is your limit, the .308 is more than adequate. A 6.5 will be easier to reach further out with, but so would a Barret 50. For me, at distances out to 1,200, it boils down to cost of ammo, barrel life, and fun. I can usually hold it < 1 MOA at 1,000 with some pretty cheap ammo. I've got good glass, but my .308 rifle is pretty cheap compared to what you want to build. Someone mentioned trigger time. That will be paramount to get you further down the road, and it will make up for a lot of hardware shortcomings.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I think some here are overestimating their skills with a .308.

Check out any high level F class FTR scores and you’ll see even the best don’t hold as good as some here claim.

 

[eastexsteve]

I think some here are overestimating their skills with a .308.

Check out any high level F class FTR scores and you’ll see even the best don’t hold as good as some here claim.

Some may be stretching it. But, I think it's mostly about trigger time. For me, I have a half-mile range in my back yard with several steel targets. Ammo has been tight, but I usually shoot at least a few rounds two or three times a week. I have an 8" inch plate hung out at 800, so that's 3/8" less than a 1 MOA target. I can usually hit it cold, unclean bore first shot under easy conditions. If I miss it a second time, I start looking for something to be loose. I have a deer feeder to the far right of the line of fire at 880. It's a crow magnet. Those crows pecking corn off the ground at 1/2 mile, now that's a challenge. They're easier to hit if you can catch them facing you right after they pick up a few kernels. They tend to stand still for several seconds LOL!

 

[Dthomas3523]

Some may be stretching it. But, I think it's mostly about trigger time. For me, I have a half-mile range in my back yard with several steel targets. Ammo has been tight, but I usually shoot at least a few rounds two or three times a week. I have an 8" inch plate hung out at 800, so that's 3/8" less than a 1 MOA target. I can usually hit it cold, unclean bore first shot under easy conditions. If I miss it a second time, I start looking for something to be loose. I have a deer feeder to the far right of the line of fire at 880. It's a crow magnet. Those crows pecking corn off the ground at 1/2 mile, now that's a challenge. They're easier to hit if you can catch them facing you right after they pick up a few kernels. They tend to stand still for several seconds LOL!

Your situation is less about trigger time in general and more about trigger time on your home range.

 

[eastexsteve]

I recently went back to 308 from 6.5 Creedmoor. I use the original LW barrel that was installed on my AT. Shoot 175 grain SMKs out if it. I really forget how pleasant it is to shoot this cartridge. It is more challenging to shoot than the 6.5 CM cartridge but 1,000 yards is not an issue.

I recently spun up a 26" Krieger MTU contour barrel for my AT. It is a 4 groove 10 twist barrel. Chambered to shoot the Berger 185 cartridge. I don't reload so I am at the mercy of factory. I can tell you that I like this cartridge a lot. Works pretty damn well at 1,000 yards even in high wind. Hope to try it to longer ranges in the springtime. I know it will shoot to 1,300 without fail.

I promise you, it will shoot much further than that if you're getting good velocity out of it. I know Federal GMM loads that bullet up to an advertised 2600 muzzle velocity. Out of my 24" bolt gun, it's starting to flatten the primers and has a definite increase in recoil over the 168 and 175. a few years ago, I shot that round a mile at a full size IPSC silhouette and was 2 for 5 with no warm-up shots. I hit that target on the second and last shot. I would of had a couple fewer misses if I had followed my own advice and not listen to my spotter LOL! I usually shoot 168s and 175s of cheaper ammo, but I like that 185 Federal so much I have a case of it stored away for the "hard times."

 

[Nik H]

I promise you, it will shoot much further than that if you're getting good velocity out of it. I know Federal GMM loads that bullet up to an advertised 2600 muzzle velocity. Out of my 24" bolt gun, it's starting to flatten the primers and has a definite increase in recoil over the 168 and 175. a few years ago, I shot that round a mile at a full size IPSC silhouette and was 2 for 5 with no warm-up shots. I hit that target on the second and last shot. I would of had a couple fewer misses if I had followed my own advice and not listen to my spotter LOL! I usually shoot 168s and 175s of cheaper ammo, but I like that 185 Federal so much I have a case of it stored away for the "hard times."

I have never tried the Federal version but have shot the Berger version. I will have to give the Federal a try if I can find it nowadays.

 

[eastexsteve]

Your situation is less about trigger time in general and more about trigger time on your home range.

I'll admit, the home range has a familiarity. And, I don't usually deal with much wind here. But, I do occasionally get out and shoot other places. I have watched a few high-power matches out of curiosity. But, regardless of your hardware, you still have to get out and burn some bullets to glue down the fundamentals and get good.

One thing I saw many years ago, I was in Mexico and watched a standing long-range silhouette match. Those guys were hitting some pretty small steel targets at some pretty long ranges. They were doing it using what looked like your average Remington or Winchester bolt-action hunting rifles with iron sights. They were doing it standing offhand, and no fancy shooting jackets or big mitts. Though I was weak on Spanish, I asked a couple of the high-scoring contenders what their secrets were. They both said they had been shooting that way their whole lives. Those guys were impressive.

 

[eastexsteve]

I have never tried the Federal version but have shot the Berger version. I will have to give the Federal a try if I can find it nowadays.

It's the same Berger bullet. Federal just loads it up in their GMM offering.

 

[Mr. Worthington]

The 18" will get you to 1,000. A 24" or 26" will work better. You will see all the 6.5 fanboys chiming in here, but if 1,000 is your limit, the .308 is more than adequate. A 6.5 will be easier to reach further out with, but so would a Barret 50. For me, at distances out to 1,200, it boils down to cost of ammo, barrel life, and fun. I can usually hold it < 1 MOA at 1,000 with some pretty cheap ammo. I've got good glass, but my .308 rifle is pretty cheap compared to what you want to build. Someone mentioned trigger time. That will be paramount to get you further down the road, and it will make up for a lot of hardware shortcomings.

Appreciate the tips. When you say good glass, what are you using? I was considering the Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 with the EBR-2C reticle

 

[Chickentoast]

Went shooting today with two 308's running 208 eld-m's. Steel is at the top of the 2nd hill. From the targets, look up to the top of the ridge and see the road... that's the shooting spot. Just to put the distance in perspective. Approx 950 yds. required 7.3 mils with 27" barrel and 7.6 mils with 24" barrel. Wind was weird today, up to 0.8 mils in either direction.

 

[eastexsteve]

Appreciate the tips. When you say good glass, what are you using? I was considering the Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 with the EBR-2C reticle

Right now, I've got a 4-16x56 Steiner P4xi mounted on it. Nice glass and a very forgiving eye box.

 

[Hey You]

i have a 20" 308 barrel. I rarely shoot it anymore. It is fine at 1k. for sure will try out to a mile soon. doubtful to have anywhere near enough elevation as I can only get about 27 mils on the turrets...I guess I could hold and hope!!! probably 1500 max...if I am lucky on wind.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

6.5 "fanboy"

 

[Denys]

I think some here are overestimating their skills with a .308.

Check out any high level F class FTR scores and you’ll see even the best don’t hold as good as some here claim.

I completely agree with you.

I love it when people say they can hold <1 MOA at 1000 yards with a .308, a 16 to 24 inch barrel and factory ammo. Throw in the SMK 168 for good measure and we are now in complete fantasy land. Maybe their ammo uses unicorn farts instead of smokeless powder.

If you can actually do that, bring that rifle and about 400 rounds of that magical ammo to the next F-Class Nationals and you will be crowned National Champion at MR and LR.

 

[Lowlight]

This is why it took. 36 takes to film the Magpul hits at 1 mile, it’s neither accurate, precise or repeatable, it’s all a lie and a scam, turning a 308 rifles into a bad 380, even he can’t repeat it. Sure you can do it, and do it better, but not how it’s advertised

anyone claiming repeatability I offer my range, $1000 cash and all expenses paid, to get there, not to mention my range is at 5000ft above sea level giving you the advantage. I have an 18”x30” plate there for you.

will make the rules easy, factory Ammo of your choice 3 out of 5 hits, I am so confident you’ll lose, I will give you 2 hours practice in the morning, then one 5 round mag in the afternoon.

if you loose, you owe $2000 and a post on how you failed.

what these people don’t want to tell you, they got scattered hits after throwing dozens of rounds down range. You dump 3 boxes and only remember the few hits.

 

[db2000]

I went 1,000 yards on repeat at K&M's class with a Savage 12FV with a 24 or 26 inch barrel (can't remember) with factory Federal 168 gr. Rifle is in an MDT XRS chassis with a Nikon FX1000 scope. I could not for the bloody life of me hit the 1200 mark... it's as if the bullet just disappeared, haha. Worse, I could barely see the damn thing with all the mirage being picked up by the scope that far out but... whatever.
I can hit the IPSC as well as gopher silhouette steel beside it at 1000 yd repeatedly with a similar rifle (Savage APO) and 24” barrel. I use 185 Juggs w/ Varget though. That’s with 5 or less wind. I have the same scope and really like it. I agree about the mirage at 1200+ some days, mostly suppressed shooting otherwise not bad.

 

[Chickentoast]

If I can't get 8/10, I get closer. I can generally do 1MOA at 1000 with a 308 (208 eld-m @ 2625fps), but not in all conditions. In all conditions, my max range with the 308 to hit 1MOA 8/10 times is ~800 yds. When conditions are perfect and I'm on, I've done 10/10 on a 12" plate at 1200, but it's useless because it's not repeatable. I've tried further, but without much luck, even in perfect conditions. I also don't have any steel larger than 12" round.

 

[eastexsteve]

I completely agree with you.

I love it when people say they can hold <1 MOA at 1000 yards with a .308, a 16 to 24 inch barrel and factory ammo.

I hope so, because I did it yesterday. I also held <4 MOA with a 7.2x51 iron sight gun and milspec ammo at that distance. I can't do it everyday, but I'm good for it on most good days. Heck, I thought all you bench rest and lead sled guys could do at least that good. Maybe you just need more practice.

Throw in the SMK 168 for good measure and we are now in complete fantasy land. Maybe their ammo uses unicorn farts instead of smokeless powder. If you can actually do that, bring that rifle and about 400 rounds of that magical ammo to the next F-Class Nationals and you will be crowned National Champion at MR and LR.

I wouldn't use 168s for that. But, I have more pending things to do these days. Not that it wouldn't be fun, but it's a matter of priorities. Business calls, and I have bills to pay.

 

[Denys]

I hope so, because I did it yesterday. I also held <4 MOA with a 7.2x51 iron sight gun and milspec ammo at that distance. I can't do it everyday, but I'm good for it on most good days. Heck, I thought all you bench rest and lead sled guys could do at least that good. Maybe you just need more practice.

I'm not sure that a .308 147gr FMJ-BT bullet can even make 1000 yards out of a short barrel.308 Winchester without keyholing some of the time. When I first started shooting High Power and Fullbore almost 40 years ago, we shot a lot of that stuff out of our 30 inch barreled bolt actions and I saw a lot of keyholes on the targets. Perhaps your "7.2X51" shoots them faster. I always need more practice, but work and family...

I wouldn't use 168s for that. But, I have more pending things to do these days. Not that it wouldn't be fun, but it's a matter of priorities. Business calls, and I have bills to pay.

That's really too bad, I was looking forward to witnessing history at the next Nationals. You would have about 7-8 months to prepare. I understand priorities and showing a bunch of F-TR (and F-Open) shooters how pitiful they are and how much better you do with your short-barreled rifle and factory ammo certainly does not constitute a priority for you.

Might I suggest that you take up Lowlight on the offer he made earlier? This way, it would not cost you anything and you would actually make money on the deal and gain fame and glory.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I completely agree with you.

I love it when people say they can hold <1 MOA at 1000 yards with a .308, a 16 to 24 inch barrel and factory ammo. Throw in the SMK 168 for good measure and we are now in complete fantasy land. Maybe their ammo uses unicorn farts instead of smokeless powder.

If you can actually do that, bring that rifle and about 400 rounds of that magical ammo to the next F-Class Nationals and you will be crowned National Champion at MR and LR.

It’s always interesting to see the claims online. When they haven’t done their research and don’t realize their claims would put them in the most elite (or better) category. And they do it with only casual shooting time when the elite shooters are out their shooting all the time. Not to mention in this instance, the elite shooters are using joypod and specialized rear bags, along with rifles made to track back as perfectly as possible.

There’s a guy who goes around to all the Rimfire FB pages posting groups that were obviously shot much closer, but he posts longer ranges. They would easily make him the best Rimfire BR and F class shooter on the planet.

And similar story, when invited out, all of a sudden business calls and this is just a game that he does better than the rest of the world in his spare time.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’m also betting we could get a pool of people together and come up with a $50k or more prize for an individual who has no known F class accomplishments to go and win Berger SW FTR long range.

Deal would be person to declare they are going to do it. Be vetted they aren’t someone known hiding behind a screen name.

Then, just show up and win berger ftr LR. I bet there would be 50+ who would agree to pay $1k each.

 

[eastexsteve]

I'm not sure that a .308 147gr FMJ-BT bullet can even make 1000 yards out of a short barrel.308 Winchester without keyholing some of the time. When I first started shooting High Power and Fullbore almost 40 years ago, we shot a lot of that stuff out of our 30 inch barreled bolt actions and I saw a lot of keyholes on the targets. Perhaps your "7.2X51" shoots them faster. I always need more practice, but work and family...

I'm also not sure a .308 147gr FMJ-BT bullet can even make 1,000 yards accurately. I know it will make it accurately to 850 out of my M1A. When I shoot 1,000 with it, I use M118LR rounds. Milspec calls for them to be loaded with SMK 175s.

That's really too bad, I was looking forward to witnessing history at the next Nationals. You would have about 7-8 months to prepare. I understand priorities and showing a bunch of F-TR (and F-Open) shooters how pitiful they are and how much better you do with your short-barreled rifle and factory ammo certainly does not constitute a priority for you.

You sound like one of the guys who thinks that because Mike Tyson was the heavyweight boxing champion, he could kick anyone's ass that walks the planet. You know how that story goes, right? Here's a hint: just because you can't do something, that doesn't mean there aren't a boatload of others who can.

Might I suggest that you take up Lowlight on the offer he made earlier? This way, it would not cost you anything and you would actually make money on the deal and gain fame and glory.

That sounds like an interesting and sincere challenge. I haven't tried a mile in many years. I only tried it once, and I was 2 for 5. I would have to see if I could do it with some consistency. However, 1 MOA out to 1,000? Not a problem.

 

[steve podleski]

... I can usually hold it < 1 MOA at 1,000 with some pretty cheap ammo. I've got good glass, but my .308 rifle is pretty cheap compared to what you want to build. ...

You're missing out on fame and medals at the FClass Nationals and World Championships.

 

[Roscoe_M4]

I suspect Federal ammo uses Sierra 168MK which are not recommend for 1000yd because of instability (I expect someone to respond that they can hit 10"gong at 1000yd with this bullet all day long)

You're exactly right. The "Sierra 168 MK has a unique dynamic instability that prevents it from flying at long ranges" according to Bryan Litz in Applied Ballistics for Long-Range Shooting and should be avoided for long range applications. It's great to 600 yards and may or may not make 1,000 under the right conditions but it is also apt to "just disappear" when it goes transonic. That's why Sierra came out with their 175 MK that does just fine to 1,000 yards. Other .30 caliber 168s are different from the SMK, but I avoid them also for long-range (past 600 yards) whenever possible.

To the OP, Theis is giving you some great advice above!

Wish I had followed that course, but I won my first 1,000-yard match with a lowly 700PSS (custom tuned by GA Precision) about 20 years ago, then came back the second year with a hot new full custom 260 Remington and did worse, because I never took the time to fully learn with my .308 - I expected the new rifle to make all the difference. The .308 is a great caliber to learn with and the barrel lasts 4 - 6 times as long as the 6.5 Creedmoor. Shoot out a .308 then re-barrel to the 6.5mm.

 

[stello1001]

This is why it took. 36 takes to film the Magpul hits at 1 mile, it’s neither accurate, precise or repeatable, it’s all a lie and a scam, turning a 308 rifles into a bad 380, even he can’t repeat it. Sure you can do it, and do it better, but not how it’s advertised

anyone claiming repeatability I offer my range, $1000 cash and all expenses paid, to get there, not to mention my range is at 5000ft above sea level giving you the advantage. I have an 18”x30” plate there for you.

will make the rules easy, factory Ammo of your choice 3 out of 5 hits, I am so confident you’ll lose, I will give you 2 hours practice in the morning, then one 5 round mag in the afternoon.

if you loose, you owe $2000 and a post on how you failed.

what these people don’t want to tell you, they got scattered hits after throwing dozens of rounds down range. You dump 3 boxes and only remember the few hits.

Damn, this is so fucking awesome. You have no idea how bad I want someone to bite the bullet. It will be a nice reality check for them and put them in their place as well.