Bad knob job.

M

mtscott

Guest
#1
While sighting in a recently purchased used rifle the bolt knob broke off in my hand. This was while normally cycling the bolt. No abuse and nothing out of the ordinary. I knew the bolt knob was an after market modification but it was "professionally" installed. Apparently the installation involved cutting off the factory knob, drilling and tapping the end of the bolt and threading the knob into the bolt lever. The break was at the base of the threaded hole.
2m319u9.jpg


So here are some questions -

How robust are after market knobs?

What degree of hard use have your modified bolts endured?

The broken bolt from this rifle is going back to the manufacture to be restored to original configuration.
 
#3
Re: Bad knob job.

I was thinking of several attention getting titles but settled on the semi bland. I originally was going to title the post "Busted nut from bad knob job".
 
#4
Re: Bad knob job.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtscott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was thinking of several attention getting titles but settled on the semi bland. I originally was going to title the post "Busted nut from bad knob job". </div></div>

ROFLMFBO
laugh.gif
 
#6
Re: Bad knob job.

I see the phrase "bad knob job"

And the last post before me is from "Tbag"

I thought you were kidding...


Hope you get your bolt fixed... PTG makes a straight handle that can be soldered on if you can't fix that one..
 
#8
Re: Bad knob job.

I really like the rifle. I got what I consider a good deal. The rifle manufacture has been easy to deal with and indicates a quick turnaround on the bolt repair. I am not going to get too worked up over the problem. I just can't understand why the knob was installed the way it was. It looked good but the design was sure to eventually fail. They took what was a solid design and made it weak point. I try to take care of my equipment but I want something that will take a beating when things go wrong.
 
#13
Re: Bad knob job.

How are these knobs typically installed? Im getting a badger knob put on my Remi 700Police. Do they cut the old one off and weld the new one on? Or put the bolt in a lathe, shave off the old knob, thread the neck, and screw the new knob on?
 
#14
Re: Bad knob job.

On the 4 rifles I have had a knob job on, the factory knob is either cut off or ground down. The "handle" that remains is threaded and the new knob screws onto and OVER the handle.

That pencil-dick little stud in the OP's pics is an abortion begging for aborting. Definite weak link.
 
#15
Re: Bad knob job.

depends jig. some mill the handle off and thread whats left, some shave it and drill it and tap it for a threaded rod and some use silver solder. azprecision has had no issues that i know of
 
#16
Re: Bad knob job.

My smith, turns the existing bolt knob off, then threads the remaining material, which he threads the new knob onto. Some are cut off, drilled, and have a stud inserted that is threaded on each end. To me, the 1st example is much stronger.
 
#17
Re: Bad knob job.

Im pretty sure my smith was going to put the bolt in his lathe and shave it down. Then thread the neck thats left of the hold handle, and screw the badger to it. I hope it turns out nice....and strong. I should be picking up the run this weekend. Ill post some pictures.
 
#18
Re: Bad knob job.

There's issues with jsut turning the factory knob and threading it. Anyone that's done it for a minute or two will tell you find voids in the Remmy cast knobs.

A hardened stud inserted into the handle after the knob is cut off is a solid install if done right.

I have had one done with a stud that broke, and that was only after I drove my TrailBlazer over my rifle in its soft case. Other than that bolt knobs done with studs have held up to everything I've tossed at them.

Nothing is as good as a one piece bolt/handle, or a TiG welded one piece handle/knob.

"Professionally Installed" just means someone got paid to do it. "dine by someone that knows what the f#ck they are doing and dealing with" is a whole 'nother ball game.

AZPrecision and P&D Custom know how to do the "stud knob job" well.
 
#19
Re: Bad knob job.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are these knobs typically installed? Im getting a badger knob put on my Remi 700Police. Do they cut the old one off and weld the new one on? Or put the bolt in a lathe, shave off the old knob, thread the neck, and screw the new knob on? </div></div>
The Badger is attached per the latter. Forget about the Badger and the rest of the bolt knobs that shorten the bolt handle. Shortening the bolt handle (thereby decreasing clearance in the above-mentioned areas) is exactly what you don't want. Why would anyone want to <span style="font-style: italic">decrease</span> clearance, thereby <span style="font-style: italic">increasing</span> the possibility of bumping your fingers on the scope ocular while you work the bolt? This can be a serious problem for shooters with large hands and/or when shooting with gloves on. Extra clearance also helps keep the shooter's hand from pressing up on the bolt handle, which is another issue which may or may not affect an individual shooter/rifle combination.

Functionally-speaking, a slightly longer bolt handle combined with a moderately-sized bolt knob allows the bolt to be operated more smoothly because of the additional clearance between the shooter's fingers' and the ocular bell. A longer bolt handle also creates slightly more clearance between the shooter's index finger and the bolt knob while shooting. The Tac Ops Bolt Knob Conversion is also extremely strong because a hardened threaded stud is TIG welded to the bolt handle itself.

The Tac Ops Bolt Conversion actually adds more clearance by lengthening the bolt handle slightly through the installation of the hardened, threaded steel "bung". This is preferred over shortening the bolt handle (as with most other bolt knobs) because shortening the bolt handle reduces the operating clearance between the bolt knob/fingers and the scope's ocular bell. Randy from R & D Precision in California (HateCA) said <span style="font-style: italic">Sounds like you might need a longer bolt handle"</span> to <span style="font-style: italic">banks74</span>.

If, for some strange reason - someone wants a short bolt handle like with other bolt handle installs, the bolt handle just needs to be cut a bit shorter before the "bung" is TIG welded on. However, shortening the bolt handle somewhat defeats the purpose of changing the bolt knob because this decreases the <span style="font-style: italic">working clearance</span> between the scope's ocular bell and the shooter's fingers.

Contact <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">monteboy84</span></span> here on the Hide' or over at Sniper Central. <span style="font-style: italic">monteboy84</span> (Matt) uses the best tactical bolt knob setup around for the Remington 700, which happens to be the Tac Ops Bolt Knob Conversion. Check-out the photos below I borrowed from <span style="font-style: italic">monteboy84</span>'s <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Some bolt knob install pictures</span></span> to see some great photos of the steps required to correctly and professionally install a Tac Ops Bolt Knob Conversion, which is NOT a DYI install.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">monteboy84</span>'s photos of Tac Ops Bolt Knob Conversions in progress:</span>
100_0001.jpg


100_0010.jpg


100_0011.jpg


100_0006.jpg


100_0008.jpg


100_0009.jpg


100_0002.jpg


100_0014.jpg


100_0017.jpg


100_0016.jpg


For post grinding & sanding / pre-finishing photos of bolt handles see <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">monteboy84</span></span>'s <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Re: Some bolt knob install pictures</span></span> thread. The bolts are ground smooth and ready for finishing before re-bluing / coating.

Check-out my post below this one for some photos I shot of the bolt on my Tac Ops X-Ray 51 rifle, compared to a bolt knob conversion (and bolt) from a competitor on that competitor's rifle.

BTW, I can personally assure you that the Tac Ops Bolt Knob Conversion is extremely strong. I watched Mike Rescigno (Tac Ops Master gunsmith and President) work and slam the bolt closed hard about twenty (20) times attempting to slam-fire my X-Ray 51 after adjusting my trigger to my requested 2.5lbs pull. Barring any un-filled voids in the factory Remington bolt handle, unless you've had the bolt handle is TIG welded onto the bolt, the bolt handle will break-off the bolt well before the bolt knob breaks.


Keith
 
#20
Re: Bad knob job.

Below are some photos of the bolt from my <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Tac Ops X-Ray 51</span></span>. The bolt is coated in Birdsong "Tac Ops" Green-T and Black-T. The first is a close up of the bolt knob on the rifle from the side, followed by a photo off of the rifle where you can see the seamless transition from the handle to the bolt knob.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Close up of the bolt knob on the rifle from the side:</span></span>
TacOpsBoltHandle8x6P.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Seamless, perfectly round transition from the (round) knob to bolt handle:</span></span>
TacOpsBoltKnobFlushFit8x6.jpg


For comparison below are a few photos' of a Tac Ops Bolt Knob installed on a RH SA M700 bolt and a competitor's bolt knob installed on a LH SA M700 bolt. Keep-in-mind that the competitor's bolt handle isn't even as short as most others, which are sometimes so short that the shooter can barely grasp the knob without fingers hitting the ocular bell.

Also, if for some strange reason someone actually wanted a shorter bolt handle like with nearly all other bolt knobs, this is easily accomplished by cutting the shank shorter before welding the threaded insert to the bolt handle. That said, compare the <span style="font-weight: bold">length of the handle and the diameter of the threaded shank</span> of the Tac Ops bolt to the length of the handle and the diameter of the threaded shank of the competitor's bolt:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Tac Ops bolt handle:</span>
TacOpsBoltHandle8x6-1.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold">Competitor's bolt handle:</span>
CompetitorsBoltHandle18x6.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold">Competitor's Bolt (on left) and Tac Ops Bolt (on right):</span>
TacOpsCompetitorsBolts8x6.jpg


Now on the rifles. Getting the angle the same for both guns was tricky, so it may be difficult to see the actual clearance difference in in the photos. However, in person the clearance delta is substantial.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Look at the clearance between the bolt knob's "top" and the stock on this Tac Ops Bolt:</span>
TacOpsBoltKnobClearance26x8-1.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold">Compared to the clearance between the bolt knob's "top" and the stock on the competitor's bolt:</span>
CompetitorsBoltHandlleClearance6x8.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold">Also, look at the distance between the bolt knob's "bottom corner" and the grip on the Tac Ops rifle:</span>
TacOpsBoltKnobCloseup6x8.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold">Compared to the distance between the bolt knob's "bottom corner" and the grip on the competitor's rifle:</span>
CompetitorsBoltKnobClearance6x8.jpg



Keith
 
#21
Re: Bad knob job.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's issues with jsut turning the factory knob and threading it. Anyone that's done it for a minute or two will tell you find voids in the Remmy cast knobs. </div></div>

Sobrbiker beat me too it.....
 
#23
Re: Bad knob job.

Man, that bites. Looks like a Winchester bolt?

I've installed a bunch of bolt knobs, in the hundreds, but I've only had 2 break, both were Howas damaged in shipping. That was a process flaw I had at the time and have since changed. I stand behind them 100% though, I tell my customers if they happen to run over their rifle with a Humvee and the knob install breaks, I'll stand behind it
wink.gif


That install makes for a difficult scenario. I could fix that, but the point of the break is in an area that has very little material, but very high stress while working the bolt. If it were me, I'd make a new bolt handle, and attach it closer to the bolt body. Yes, the stress would be higher there, but there is more material available for making a strong union of the new bolt handle and existing stub.

If you'd be interested in having it repaired with the installation of a new bolt knob, shoot me a PM and I'll cut you a screaming deal (cost of parts alone, no charge on labor) to get you back in the game.

-matt
 
#24
Re: Bad knob job.

We (APA) install our knobs in a fashion similar to 300sniper.

apaBoltKnob2_L.jpg


If we're installing something like a Badger the threading process is the same.

Here is one of ours installed:

specBuild1_03_adjustLarge.jpg



Regarding comments about voids in bolt handle materials, yes, we've seen them on occasion.

IMG_7100_adjustLarge.jpg


I'm not saying a bolt handle can't exist with bad enough voids as to compromise the structural integrity with our (or a similar) bolt knob installed the way we do it. But I can say the guys in the shop have been doing this for a long time and have never seen that as a potential issue. In fact, the bolt knob we installed on that handle with the void was plenty structurally strong after our install. The knob bridges that gap/void and in fact provides extra strength. Dave, Jered and the guys will tell you of the several hundreds of knobs APA has installed over the years we've had zero failures of the knobs.

There are obviously differing thoughts/opinions on what way to install a bolt knob is best. There are often different ways of achieving the same end result.
smile.gif


Now, "feel" is completely user preference. Whether the knob needs to be extended or tapered to clear an optic is also another topic entirely. Each user will have to pick what tool works best for him and hopefully have the product installed by a competent 'smith. I used an APA bolt knob for a long time before ever joining the company so I'm not just pimping the product my current employer makes. I was a fan and APA customer for years before joining the team.
wink.gif


I tried several different bolt knobs before settling on the APA one. It just fit my hand best and let me run the bolt faster. I liked the knurling as well since I do use the rifle for hunting and competitions so the rifle does get used in inclement weather conditions.

While some extended knobs might be needed to clear some optics, I didn't find that was a requirement for me when running a Nightforce 3.5-15 FFP scope. As they say, YMMV. Again, everyone needs to pick what piece of gear will work best for them.

Best of luck to the OP.
 
#25
Re: Bad knob job.

That looks like an HS Precision bolt. They are pretty slender. Is the bolt handle even big enough to thread it for the Knob or does it's small diameter require this method of attachment?
 
#26
Re: Bad knob job.

If you have a CNC mill, the shaving the factory and threading the stub (as 300sniper pictured, and APA and GAP do) is the most cost effective way to do it.

As far as length, it looks like the OP's knob had a long stud on it, longer than Keith's pics of the TacOps.

Length is a give and take-while it adds leverage and clerance, it also can become a hindrance if folks have meaty trigger fingers.

Mark pegged it with the what works best being user preference.

I just think the OP is a bit off by declaring that doing stud installs is a bad way to do knobs-he just got a bad knob job.
 
#27
Re: Bad knob job.

I stand corrected on stud installs. As illustrated in some of the post above there appears to be situations where stud installs are viable options. On this bolt the diameter of the bolt handle and the size of the stud created a problem.

Yes it is an HS Precision bolt.

Thanks for all of the information and posts.
 
#28
Re: Bad knob job.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have a CNC mill, the shaving the factory and threading the stub (as 300sniper pictured, and APA and GAP do) is the most cost effective way to do it.</div></div>
Cost effective yes - as long as any visible voids are filled and the install is performed correctly.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as length, it looks like the OP's knob had a long stud on it, longer than Keith's pics of the TacOps.</div></div>
Possibly. Maybe the long, slender handle provided too much leverage and it broke under the pressure. Looks like a poor installation job though.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Length is a give and take-while it adds leverage and clerance, it also can become a hindrance if folks have meaty trigger fingers.</div></div>
As I understand it, <span style="font-style: italic">Rob01</span> has rather thick fingers, and the Tac Ops BKC worked much better than the Badger knob that had been installed on his bolt handle before. This was despite the fact that the existing bolt handle had been shortened quite a bit when a Badger knob had been installed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mark pegged it with the what works best being user preference.</div></div>
True.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just think the OP is a bit off by declaring that doing stud installs is a bad way to do knobs-he just got a bad knob job. </div></div>
I'd say more than <span style="font-style: italic">"a bit off"</span>, but agree that it looks like a poor installation. Below is a "bolt knob photo montage" of <span style="font-style: italic">TXBRASS</span>'s that I borrowed from a thread of his. The photo montage shows a hack job installation that someone did on a Tac Ops BKC. Goes to show that having the mechanical skills and the right tools for the job can make a world of difference.

CopyofBOLTKNOBS.jpg



<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">The photos below are representative of how a properly installed TO BKC should look like when completed:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Close up of the bolt knob on the rifle from the side:</span></span>
TacOpsBoltHandle8x6P.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Seamless, perfect transition from the (round) knob to round shank on bolt handle:</span></span>
TacOpsBoltKnobFlushFit8x6.jpg


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtscott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I stand corrected on stud installs. As illustrated in some of the post above there appears to be situations where stud installs are viable options. On this bolt the diameter of the bolt handle and the size of the stud created a problem.

Yes it is an HS Precision bolt.

Thanks for all of the information and posts. </div></div>
You're welcome.


Keith
 
#29
Re: Bad knob job.

this is a great post. Bolt knobs seem to be a pretty popular upgrade that people do. Maybe this should become a sticky or something. A post about different types of bolt knobs, installations, needs, etc...
 
#30
Re: Bad knob job.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: patriotoutlaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My smith, turns the existing bolt knob off, then threads the remaining material, which he threads the new knob onto. Some are cut off, drilled, and have a stud inserted that is threaded on each end. To me, the 1st example is much stronger.</div></div>

Is he by chance in silex?
 
#31
Re: Bad knob job.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bolt knobs seem to be a pretty popular (<span style="color: #CC0000">YET TOTALLY UNNECESSARY</span>) upgrade that people do. </div></div>

Added a little to your above post--and I too am guilty of gilding the lily.

 
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