Bad lot of Lapua Scenar 300 grain bullets

[nnn66]

I think I have a couple of boxes of 300 gr 338 Lapua Scenars that are defective. I recently purchased 200 of them from Powder Valley and was loading some this morning when I noticed (after loading 53 rounds) that the bullets all have deep longitudinal gouges around the circumference of the bullet. I had taken my glasses off while seating the bullets and didn't notice them until I realized that they had a weird feel to them, so I put my glasses back on and inspected them. One of the boxes arrived to me with the seal already broken, so I thought that perhaps someone had pulled these bullets and then returned them to Powder Valley. The other box seemed to still be factory sealed and they are the same lot number, so I opened it and discovered that all of them have these same longitudinal gouges in the jacket. I compared them to some others that I have from different lot numbers and they are all totally smooth, with no gouges. It seems to me that having these gouges in the jackets would surely affect the flight of the bullet, so I'm not happy with this. The lot number on these boxes is P00610501/1231813. I'll attempt to attach a photo. I had difficulty getting it to show up in my pics, but if you zoom in, you should be able to see it. Anyone else have bullets from this lot number with the same issue? Any thoughts on what created these gouges?

 

[Icewater]

I'm no expert but it looks like some sort of tool or die marks to me, whether it was from during manufacturing or post manufacturing I wouldn't know. Contact the manufacturer see what they say

 

[Icewater]

On second thought are you sure these aren't for the hollow point to expand?

 

[nnn66]

On second thought are you sure these aren't for the hollow point to expand?

The gouges are irregular. Although they are mostly evenly spaced, with approximately 25 or so gouges around the circumference of each bullet, they are not ALL evenly spaced and they are of varying lengths, ranging from about 1/8 inch to 1/2 inch in length. Also, some are deeper than others and they are not all perfectly straight....some are straight and others are a bit crooked. I have compared them to other identical bullets that I bought in the past with different lot numbers. This particular lot are the only ones with the gouges. I will contact Powder Valley and Lapua this week, but was hoping someone here might have an idea of what this is or maybe has seen it in the same lot of bullets.

 

[mdmp5]

I'd rather no marks than having them, but I wouldn't think that they would really affect the performance. If you can get them replaced, then by all means do so. But I would bet that they are fine to shoot. I am making my judgment based on what I can see in your picture.

 

[mdmp5]

The bullet swager may have had some grits inside it when it made this particular lot.

 

[nnn66]

I suppose they might shoot ok and I guess I'll find out because I really don't want to pull 53 of them. However, I'm hoping Powder Valley would be willing to replace the rest of them. I've been shooting between 1400 and a mile and my rifle has had outstanding performance at these distances. At this point, I think I would definitely be suspecting the bullet if my long distance groups started to open up. The place where I shoot these distances is about 75 miles from where I live and I only get to go down there for a weekend about once every 2 or 3 weeks, so I don't want to risk wasting a weekend of shooting on a batch of bullets that don't fly right. I can just imagine all those little grooves disrupting air flow and creating a disturbance for my bullet's flight. At these distances, it seems like even the slightest disturbance might have noticeable consequences. I have already sent an email to Powder Valley and I'll call them on Monday. I definitely don't want any more bullets from this lot number!

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Do you have an older lot to compare--all 338 scenars I've had experience with have the lines which is where the nose portion is formed I believe. Went out and looked at a couple different boxes, some bulk 300gr'rs I recently got and loaded ammo I put together a while back--all have the longitudinal lines towards that shoulder forming the tip.

None had deep gouges though, just lines.

 

[nnn66]

The gouges are difficult to see in the photo I put in the initial post, so I'm going to try again and see if I can post a pic so you guys can see what I'm talking about. I just can't get my camera to focus very close-up, so the gouges aren't showing up very well in my photos. Every bullet in the box looks like these:

 

[Dogtown]

I've seen that before as well, though only on a handful out of a box and nowhere near as pronounced as yours, yet I didn't notice any degradation in performance.

 

[nnn66]

Do you have an older lot to compare--all 338 scenars I've had experience with have the lines which is where the nose portion is formed I believe. Went out and looked at a couple different boxes, some bulk 300gr'rs I recently got and loaded ammo I put together a while back--all have the longitudinal lines towards that shoulder forming the tip.

None had deep gouges though, just lines.

I had ordered a large quantity of these bullets in the past, so they are an older lot and none of them have these gouges in them. I still have some and they are completely smooth. If this is a design change, I don't understand why they're doing it. They are deep enough that they will catch on your fingernail if you spin the bullet across your nail.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

That is the formation lines, they do appear more pronounced but all have them to varying degrees. My 136, 167, 175 and 300 scenars all have them--just went digging and looking myself. Yepper, all have them--makes them look fast.

Also the Hybrid Bergers I have, 140's and 300's as well as 175 and 210 SMK's have them too.

There was a Lapua rep that had posted here or on accurate shooter re: these sometime. I came across it last week reading on posts about either the newer 136 or 175. Might do a search. Can't recall the full context but part of his lengthy post was addressing the formation (think he may have used "gilding") lines.

 

[nnn66]

Here's a pic of some 300 grain Scenars from an older lot that do not have formation lines or gilding lines. They are badass accurate and I wish they still made them like that! Maybe the formation lines won't affect performance, but I would prefer to have mine smooth like the old ones.

 

[DocB]

nnn,

VictornTN? told me these are from cold swaging dies when the bullets are made. I sent him several JLKs which had these marks, and that was his explanation. Since he make custom bullets for a long time, I have accepted his diagnosis. They probably won't make any difference @ under 600 yards.

HTH,
DocB

 

[nnn66]

nnn,
They probably won't make any difference @ under 600 yards.

I'd say that 99% of shots I take with this rifle are far beyond 600 yards, so I'm concerned about the difference it will make out to a mile. If these are swaging marks, I'm still wondering why they get past quality control at the factory. I realize that some say they are normal and won't make a difference, but I'm not convinced. I have purchased Scenars from a couple of different lot numbers in the past and, as the photo I posted above shows, they did not have even the slightest swaging grooves in them. How common is this? Have I just lucked out in the past and always got nice smooth bullets that aren't all marked up? I've purchased thousands of bullets and never had these marks on them before. I showed them to a friend who has been an avid reloader for 30 years and he said he never got any bullets that looked like that.

 

[Dan Newberry]

Send Lapua the photo and I'm sure they'll make things right. Kevin Thomas (a Lapua rep) is a member here, and he may check this thread and advise.

While it may not affect accuracy to any noticeable extent, I'd rather have unblemished bullets--since that's what you paid for.

Dan

 

[neiltus]

I have those on all my berger and lapua lots. More noticeable on the lapua-155&168. On Sierra I have to look hard to find them.

 

[leadbullet]

I am sure your target won't mind a couple tiny marks on your bullets, it is not jewelry after all, if accuracy is there those are not defective at all.
Shoot and see.
Cheers.

 

[nnn66]

I am sure your target won't mind a couple tiny marks on your bullets, it is not jewelry after all, if accuracy is there those are not defective at all.
Shoot and see.
Cheers.

I do intend to shoot the ones that I've already loaded and I know how my rifle normally performs with this load, so I should be able to tell if accuracy is as good as with non-blemished bullets. Although it seems like a small thing to be concerned with, I just imagine those grooves creating extra drag that isn't experienced with a smooth bullet. I don't pretend to have any degree of expertise in understanding the air flow around a bullet in flight; I'm just guessing at what might happen and hoping those who know more about it will offer their thoughts. Thanks for all the input!

 

[nnn66]

For anyone interested, I have spoken with Kevin Thomas from Lapua and he has explained to me that these grooves are known as "fractures" and are a normal result of the forming process. The reason I have not seen them before is that they can be visible or not according to the hardness of jacket material in a particular lot of bullets. Kevin told me that they are not a concern and should not alter the performance of the bullet unless they wrap around onto the bearing surface, in which case they are referred to as "wrap-arounds", which are unacceptable. Also, he said they are not a problem as long as they are only on the surface and not actual fractures through the jacket.

I also questioned whether these fractures would create additional drag as compared to a bullet that does not have visible fractures. He explained that there is a turbulence created while the bullet is in flight which prevents any air contact with that portion of the bullet, so there is no reason why these bullets should behave any differently in flight than those which do not have visible fractures.

I know that several of you have said that you routinely have seen these fractures before, but this was my first encounter with them. I feel satisfied with Kevin's explanation and will go ahead with shooting them and expect no problems. However, just to satisfy my curiosity, I will take some identically loaded cartridges that I've used smooth bullets in and compare their performance with these bullets. I'll report back if I discover anything of interest. Thanks to all who have contributed to my learning in this thread.

 

[neiltus]

It is interesting that the fracture visibility is dependent on jacket hardness. And this makes me want to ask other questions. Questions that outcomes really don't matter with my ability...

Neat-o...makes me think.