Ballistic Loophole Clearance

[jasonk]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

The DC killer also had a hole in a trunk that he stuck his barrel through, ever so slightly, then retracted it after the shot. He was not a loophole "sniper".

As Lowlight stated, it's not magic and barely even science, anyone with 20 minutes and a piece of cardboard with a hole in it can figure it out.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Woj8541, I know what you mean, but the 'DC sniper' wasn't a Sniper. He was a criminal with a rifle.</div></div>

Graham: Don't Buy into that BS.

I recommend you Or anyone interested in LE Counter Sniping read

"THEY SHOOT TO KILL, A Psycho-Survey of Criminal Sniping" Ronald Tobias

Sniping isnt just for Good Guys, don't underestemate the Bandits or any other enemy.

 

[Woj8541]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Woj8541, I know what you mean, but the 'DC sniper' wasn't a Sniper. He was a criminal with a rifle. </div></div>

Absolutely correct, he was definitely not a "sniper" by any stretch of the term. I am simply using the term in the context that the criminal was known for. My point is that if someone has the desire to obtain information they will in any way they have access to.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

As long as people stomp their feet and wave their hands there will be a issue, where no issue should exist. Concealment is a requirement for any sniper, and is one of the first thing people look for, and has been around since the beginning.

and people will always copy what they see, especially if attention is brought to it

Again, if nobody mentioned it, people would pass right by, but instead those easily impressed will bring unnecessary attention to anything simply because its supposed to be Taboo.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

How can you say that?

Protective distance is the range at which the sniper feels he can maintain his sense of emotional remoteness from the victom and not be threatened by him or bystanders. But the literal physical distance is not what distinguishes a sniper from oher types of killers. There have been snipers who have killed from nearly pointblank range.

Protective distance dosn't have to be distance per se, it can be from a "HIDE", such as shooting from a Loophole in the trunk of a car.

One must understand YOU CAN HAVE CRIMINAL SNIPERS. I believe the DC Sniper fits into that catagory.

It isnt just the military that needs counter-snipers, its LE as well and the LE Counter-sniper needs to understand that just because one is a criminal, dosnt mean they cant be "snipers" nor can they, (the LE counter-sniper) be lured into the ideal a sniper needs distance. They must understand this and be prepared to deal with such.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

Edited to correct the misunderstanding

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

lowlight, sorry for the misunderstanding, my last post wasnt directed at you, but the post above yours regarding the DC Sniper, You just snuck in your post between ours.

I should have been better at what post I was directing mine at, I'm not the fastest poster around.

 

[TresMon]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance


I'm NOT ASKING HOW to actually FIGURE OUT out how to shoot my bullet through some/a/any hole, so there will be no taking me out back to the wood shed.

I'm asking for someone to -define/clarify the question- only...

I dont actually even know what is being asked, what the hypothetical scenario is when the "how to figure loops" question is posed.

Scenario: Let's say I'm going through Mayberry Police Sniper Academy. Barney step's up to the front of the class and say's "now we are going to learn how to figure loop hole shooting".....

A:
Am I about to learn how to figure/shoot a target I CAN see THROUGH a little hole only,

B:
Or am I about to learn were to position my little loop hole, so that if/when i shoot through dead center of my loop which is near range the bullet with it's natural drop- will hit a NOT VISIBLE (to line of sight) target far beyond the hole?

I guess I'm asking are real snipers with a real need figuring a loop through which they CAN see the target, or are they needing to learn how to figure where to position a loop where they target is unseen but the bullet if put through the center of the loop will drop onto an unseen target far distant?


I mean I could easily figure for both if i needed or wanted to. But obviously the second scenario is much more complex than the first. and would have to be set up well in advance.

So yeah, I'm not asking how to successfully FIGURE the end result. I just want to know what in the hell the question actually interrogatively details, regardless of the highly controversial argument as to wether an answer should be given to a nobody such as myself.

Is it also wrong for a commoner to ask that the question mark itself be brought from fuzzy to sharp focus irregardless of the actual answer being classified?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

Dude, just drop it...

In reality it is very, very limited in its application because realistically you can't see shit as it completely cuts off your field of view that is makes it almost impractical for most applications including the military.

You would have been perfectly lined up to do it, and then you have to hope the person is not moving on the other side, both your guys and theirs because you can't see them.

For the PD it is good to know to understand where a criminal has shot from if someone did employ it, but again, super limited.

I would just let it go... its dumb that there are some out there advocating it like they are teaching voodoo.... its akin to the guys who show people how to "Bend the Bullet" around one target to hit the other.

Most people use a more than large enough hole that negates the need to "calculate" anything other than mechanical offset. Why, because they want to actually see something on the other side.

 

[benjaminzero]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

This was all explained in 1954:

 

[jasonk]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

On the subject of mechanical offset, I once watched a guy shoot a hole in the hood of his Ford Bronco using a 375 H&H Magnum. It was an impressive display the say the least, it taught me right then that just because the scope can see over the top of it doesn't mean the barrel can.

 

[TresMon]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance


Thanks.

 

[BugSniper]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would just let it go... its dumb that there are some out there advocating it like they are teaching voodoo.... its akin to the guys who show people how to "Bend the Bullet" around one target to hit the other.
</div></div>


case in point, everyone that takes this guy's class, or any similar class, gets it close enough
http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2010/05/jefferson_county_geometry_teac.html

Now planetary orbits were all voodoo and stuff once, but this is just geometry, Newton's gravitational observations with the little fudge of projectile paths added in. It's older than the rifle. It's not what would have occurred spontaneously to me in the heat of conflict, but it's a pretty darned obvious strategy to not get spotted and blown to crap.

 

[Chanonry]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zeroed1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone who can't figure this out is officially not allowed to borrow my chronograph...</div></div>

ha ha very good. I just joined the chrony shooters club, despite watching the mechanical offset lesson in the online training. At the time I didn't think I had any practical use for me. About half a second after drilling the thing I had a vision of Jacob shooting at 10 feet or whatever. Practical reinforcement of theory.

Re the loophole shot, if that is a huge military secret god help us...

 

[Lindy]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

There are lots of members of that club. My chronograph has a couple of nicks in it.

 

[Mustafa]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

The first round I fired with my first chrony completely took the thing out! Stupid offset...

 

[fargo007]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

Ya gotta use the pre-zero-stop trick for "which rotation am I on?" - take the bolt out and peek through the bore just to be sure.

I don't have a chrony, I shamelessly mooch them so I have to be extra careful. Only one I borrowed did not have at least a scrape or smear on it. LOL

--Fargo007

 

[High Binder]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm asking for someone to -define/clarify the question- only...
</div></div>

Tres, last time this topic came up I hadn't even head of a loophole, 20 mins later and a little research, I had everything I ever needed to know about loophole shooting as well as knowing that I will never need it. You wont get the answers your seeking here on this forum, you'll have to find them yourself, its out there.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: runnin8842</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You do not need this formula, and KUTF was exactly right in what he said about opsec. If you are deploying downrange to eliminate targets as a sniper and you haven't learned it then obviously its not for you either, it's def not for a recreational shooter.. no offense... to post on a public internet forum. Get up at arms call me a A$$ whatever you gotta do, but until your boots are on the ground and you or your buddies get shot bc someone wanted to look cool and display their intelligence by posting a secret/noforn formula in a public setting then come talk to me. And whoever stated terrorists aren't that smart obviously hasn't been there either.</div></div>

Noforn?? Well, fuck me dead, I'm an aussie - so guess I'd better jump out of this thread before someone sells the crown jewels and accidentally teaches me to shoot out of a hole without damaging it..

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are lots of members of that club. My chronograph has a couple of nicks in it.
</div></div>

I did a solid 4 hours of algebra the night before Jasonk let me shoot at his Oehler.

 

[Graham]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

Am I the only one who has shot a chronograph on purpose?

There's a joke in there somewhere... Question: What can you a tell a chrono that reads 437fps, then 5587fps? Answer: Nothing; it's already been told twice.

Fire away!

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am I the only one who has shot a chronograph on purpose?

There's a joke in there somewhere... Question: What can you a tell a chrono that reads 437fps, then 5587fps? Answer: Nothing; it's already been told twice.

Fire away! </div></div>

hahahaha oh man

 

[gugubica]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

I can always tell when they rerun the Army Snipers show...the loophole threads start poping up.

If you are serious about know "the loophole" formula you either...

1. Are such an accomplshed shooter that you have nothing else left to learn or...

2. You are jumpng on the "it is forbidden, so I must know" train.

In reality, this application offers such limited utility in the real world that you will be waisting time chasing it. Unless, that is, you fall into the first catagory above.

 

[fargo007]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Priest</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: runnin8842</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You do not need this formula, and KUTF was exactly right in what he said about opsec. If you are deploying downrange to eliminate targets as a sniper and you haven't learned it then obviously its not for you either, it's def not for a recreational shooter.. no offense... to post on a public internet forum. Get up at arms call me a A$$ whatever you gotta do, but until your boots are on the ground and you or your buddies get shot bc someone wanted to look cool and display their intelligence by posting a secret/noforn formula in a public setting then come talk to me. And whoever stated terrorists aren't that smart obviously hasn't been there either.</div></div>

Noforn?? Well, fuck me dead, I'm an aussie - so guess I'd better jump out of this thread before someone sells the crown jewels and accidentally teaches me to shoot out of a hole without damaging it..



</div></div>

Nope Mate. You're good!<span style="font-style: italic">

The restriction of NOFORN no longer applies to Australia or Britain when the matter concerns either a) military operations (including training) in which they are participating or b) the broader war on terror. It was reported that this change took place in July 2004 when President Bush signed a presidential decree changing US national disclosure policy.
</span>

 

[TNT]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

I'm questioning whether someone will seriously wade through 4 pages of opsec bickering before they actually sit down and do some geometry.

I've provided a detailed top secret compartmentalized data template below:

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

TNT,

Do you offer those templates in MultiCam?

 

[hopps]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TNT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm questioning whether someone will seriously wade through 4 pages of opsec bickering before they actually sit down and do some geometry.

I've provided a detailed top secret compartmentalized data template below:

</div></div>

I heard impact data books was going to use your data template and make this one of those stickey things like ballistic tables.

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

See,

Whats so sad to me is people are on the internet talking about shooting and not going to the range with a piece of cardboard and seeing how this crap works.

What and idea!!!!!!

GO AND DO IT!!!!!

John

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Priest</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: runnin8842</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You do not need this formula, and KUTF was exactly right in what he said about opsec. If you are deploying downrange to eliminate targets as a sniper and you haven't learned it then obviously its not for you either, it's def not for a recreational shooter.. no offense... to post on a public internet forum. Get up at arms call me a A$$ whatever you gotta do, but until your boots are on the ground and you or your buddies get shot bc someone wanted to look cool and display their intelligence by posting a secret/noforn formula in a public setting then come talk to me. And whoever stated terrorists aren't that smart obviously hasn't been there either.</div></div>

Noforn?? Well, fuck me dead, I'm an aussie - so guess I'd better jump out of this thread before someone sells the crown jewels and accidentally teaches me to shoot out of a hole without damaging it..



</div></div>

Nope Mate. You're good!<span style="font-style: italic">

The restriction of NOFORN no longer applies to Australia or Britain when the matter concerns either a) military operations (including training) in which they are participating or b) the broader war on terror. It was reported that this change took place in July 2004 when President Bush signed a presidential decree changing US national disclosure policy.
</span> </div></div>

Well, thank goodness for that. I was waiting for the black helicopters... I can change my diapers now.

 

[fargo007]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.Boyette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">See,

Whats so sad to me is people are on the internet talking about shooting and not going to the range with a piece of cardboard and seeing how this crap works.

What and idea!!!!!!

GO AND DO IT!!!!!

John </div></div>

I like this Boyette fella.

And in this, the limited usefulness of it becomes apparent, and lo, the thrill is gone baby... but I always said this would be a cool and easy to run match stage idea....

Have a 500 yard target and provide holes of different sizes with shoot 'n c around the edges to expose flubs. The smaller the hole they shoot through (successfully, and hit the target) the higher the point value.

Hmm.....

 

[weaver126]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

this website is like an advanced math class!

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

I have always wondered if it were named "Shooting Through a Straw" if as many people would have interest.



Good luck

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

The fun part is forget the loop hole up close. How about the loop hole on the targets location?

Like through a gun port on a bunker? How would you guarantee a hit if the bad guy is oh, lets say 4 foot behind his "loop hole" how would you then get your X ring?

Thats more TS than what this topic is about and more realistic from a LEO point of view.

John

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.Boyette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fun part is forget the loop hole up close. How about the loop hole on the targets location?

Like through a gun port on a bunker? How would you guarantee a hit if the bad guy is oh, lets say 4 foot behind his "loop hole" how would you then get your X ring?

Thats more TS than what this topic is about and more realistic from a LEO point of view.

John </div></div>

I've always wanted to try shooting targets over a hill to see if I was really that in touch with the flight path of the bullet.

Would be a fun experiment no doubt.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

Just get a subscription to the online lessons, end of discussion.

Danger space... interesting.

I also like the idea of 3 different holes for 3 different point values, Fall Bash maybe as we already have it set up for the loophole shots. Only bitch is set up can, for some be a bit slow for our tastes.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like through a gun port on a bunker? How would you guarantee a hit if the bad guy is oh, lets say 4 foot behind his "loop hole" how would you then get your X ring?</div></div>

That's trivial to figure out with a ballistic program - but I'll see is someone wants to come up with ways to accomplish that.

 

[SFC Carpentier jr]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also like the idea of 3 different holes for 3 different point values, Fall Bash maybe as we already have it set up for the loophole shots. Only bitch is set up can, for some be a bit slow for our tastes.
</div></div>

Yes I thing the set-up would take a while.

 

[fargo007]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I also like the idea of 3 different holes for 3 different point values, Fall Bash maybe as we already have it set up for the loophole shots. Only bitch is set up can, for some be a bit slow for our tastes. </div></div>

Hear that.

I would set up three stations for this. Give them some sandbags and some old books to work with for height, and :60 - If the gun don't go boom in :60, unload, and point them to a nearby consolation prize table where they can pick up their box of Rice-a-Roni... "the san francisco treat."

We did do a couple defilade shots as described above - e.g. you could only see the top of the head. Aim where the body should be and ...ding. These are fun, and teach people quite plainly that trajectory and LoS aren't the same thing.

I'm glad this got hijacked. This is a way cooler thread now.

--Fargo007

 

[hopps]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm glad this got hijacked. This is a way cooler thread now.

--Fargo007


</div></div>

So you could setup a target that could only be seen through a window and you don't know how far inside / how far away the target is from the window so you have to know your bullet trajectory for that range to see if it will strike the edge of the window or if it will clear....

sort of like this?

 

[Lindy]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

Yeah, like that.

 

[Jburt]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

Why is there a deer in that house.

 

[pickpick]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jburt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why is there a deer in that house. </div></div>
it's not a house, it's "deer camp". They have to have some where to stay when going after hunters. Lol

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

Always here to help!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> COURAGEWOLF,
I've always wanted to try shooting targets over a hill to see if I was really that in touch with the flight path of the bullet.

Would be a fun experiment no doubt.</div></div>

What you are talking about is not a loop hole shot. Its a defilade position shot. Two diffrent ideas on the same curve

John

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hopps</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm glad this got hijacked. This is a way cooler thread now.

--Fargo007


</div></div>

So you could setup a target that could only be seen through a window and you don't know how far inside / how far away the target is from the window so you have to know your bullet trajectory for that range to see if it will strike the edge of the window or if it will clear....

sort of like this?

</div></div>

wtf is that deer doing in the house

 

[High Binder]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
wtf is that deer doing in the house </div></div>

I have deer in my house but it's wrapped up in little white packages.

 

[2manygunz]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

This problem would go away if you'd Just switch to 260 Rem.

 

[fargo007]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

I envisioned it differently.

The deer inside the house would be armed, and would be firing through the opening. They've taken enough of Elmer Fudd's shit.

--Fargo007

 

[zunrj5]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

This should be a T-shirt.

[/quote]

 

[Heshin]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zunrj5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This should be a T-shirt.

</div></div> LMAO!!!!!!!

 

[sharac]

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

OMFG what is the caliber of that rifle?? If i consider those ratios my guess would be a fifty cal however necked down to half a inch??

12.7x14? New backyard mortar round design or one huge ass house with huge ass deer from hell...

Seriously though curves the bullets fly sure ain't that round (.308 @ 1km would have ~12m of drop) and drastic. You'd get maybe 4m of elevation if you'd shoot @ 1000m but, angle is steep i give it that compared to the line of sight so maybe in first two meters you'd need a few centimeters of clearance but i just don't see this as a problem as shooting from holes is rarely done and if done is quite illogical as all men i know like to shoot the other way...

I don't know about the loopholes on your side of the pond however here they do not present such big of a deal and there are plenty of folks who can exploit them quite well

.