Ban on body armor in the works!

[JaysonF]

Leave it to California to force their insecurities and lies on the rest of the nation! While I know there will be opposition to firearms laws being passed, I find it difficult to believe that anyone in Washington will outright oppose this. Buy your armor while you still can!
Moving more and more towards a tyrannical society where it's ok for them, but not for you. Scary.
Rep. Mike Honda Introduces Bill Banning Civilians from Buying Body Armor | NBC Bay Area

 

[--BLACKOUT--]

Man... The ass-hatery knows no bounds.

What would be some good armor to pick up for regular civilian?

 

[JaysonF]

I would talk to the people at bulletproofme.com
Level IV stand alone plates if you want to run a kit.
Level IIIA for soft armor

 

[VoxPatriam]

For non AP threats, AR 500 is the most durable armor I've seen. Most ceramic plates are only rated for a few spaced shots. AR 500 stops hundreds of rounds. Just understand that even if someone makes a ban on body armor, there will always be people who figure out how to get it anyhow. I'm sure this is on a billion of those meme things by now, but if making things illegal made them irrelevant, why do drugs, prostitution and the like still freely roam the streets?
I propose a counter ban. I submit that politicians are known to the People of the United States to cause rampant stupidity and blatant disregard for the will of those who elected them. Ban those idiots. And take warning labels away. You'd be amazed at how many problems sort themselves out!

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Yet another example of the nanny state. Sure, I don't want to go up against someone wearing level IIIA body armor let alone a level III plate carrier while I am on a call. But who seriously thinks this would stop the determined person from getting this through other means?

A simple state law that is on the books as either a separate charge or an aggravator for sentencing that makes it illegal to be used during the commission of a crime is all that is needed. Will it prevent the use of the armor? No, neither will banning its possession. Look at how well gun control or the drug wars have gone for us.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

NV is next......

 

[Scotts556]

Steel is also the worst thing for body armor. Frag and ricochets are the problem with ar500.

 

[TheGerman]

lol so they're going to ban pieces of steel plating? Not happening.

This is going to Gowdey's committee anyways.

 

[rpk762]

Because this is such a problem. Haw many criminals use body armor? Maybe .000001%?

What is military grade? When I was in back in the late 90’s we had a few types that a cop or business man would wear. So because the government used them does that mean I am SOL and can not get a new set when we hire a new person? Sure hope not.

Yes night vision is a wanted subject for the chopping block. Just look at what other countries limit their citizens to. Many allow no access or to generation 1.

 

[VoxPatriam]

Steel is also the worst thing for body armor. Frag and ricochets are the problem with ar500.

Not the worst thing. If you put them behind kevlar soft armor you're golden. AR500armor.com sells them with some kind of line-x spall coating too. The only time it would suck is trying to use a compass.

 

[kraigWY]

As long as there is man hole covers, there'll be body armor.....................................and holes in the road.

 

[HD-Ghost]

It's all about control. Arguing any other point is fruitless.

If they reference the LA bank shootout of "89 (yes, its been that long), our talking points would be:
1. So...it happened once 15 yrs ago, is this a threat?
2. They used illegal full-auto machineguns, how did that law work for you?
3. Robbing banks and shooting people: isn't those the true crime here?

 

[pawprint2]

Yet another example of the nanny state. Sure, I don't want to go up against someone wearing level IIIA body armor let alone a level III plate carrier while I am on a call. But who seriously thinks this would stop the determined person from getting this through other means?

A simple state law that is on the books as either a separate charge or an aggravator for sentencing that makes it illegal to be used during the commission of a crime is all that is needed. Will it prevent the use of the armor? No, neither will banning its possession. Look at how well gun control or the drug wars have gone for us.

I do not agree, when you say, "That is all that is needed", you are wrong. The use of a firearm in the commission of a felony is in most places already is a more serious crime, and in many places adds a mandatory sentence. The problem is the DA's and Feds 'deal down', and the low life piece of shit that committed the crime(s) in the first place, get off on a 'lesser' charge. Felons with guns, if all felons caught by LE were, in fact, charged and given Federal Prison time, without exception-the gun crime rate would drop dramatically, however; as long as DAs and US Attorneys continue to make deals, drop the gun crime charges (based on who is being charged) etc. these laws become 'pick and choose who they'll apply to' by the prosecutors. Real Americans do not support laws that only apply to some people, some will be charged others will not, in short the law only applies to some and not others. Regarding your statement, where you state that you'd rather not "go up against someone wearing a level IIIA body armor", I'm sure you wouldn't want to go up against someone with a 2gal bucket full of gasoline and motor oil, and a road flare, or up against anyone at all. Politicos wanting to limit the tax payers from protective gear has ominous overtones. Making it illegal for convicted felons to own weapons-good idea, making it illegal for convicted felons to have body armor-good idea, making it mandatory for DAs and Federal Attorneys to prosecute convicted felons with guns-without favor or 'dealing down', a real must if we are ever going to go back to the rule of law.

 

[evilcoon]

So...it happened once 15 yrs ago, is this a threat?

Is my math off or did you mean to say 25?

 

[Smcarroll]

Not the worst thing. If you put them behind kevlar soft armor you're golden. AR500armor.com sells them with some kind of line-x spall coating too. The only time it would suck is trying to use a compass.

I have been experimenting with different things to stop spall, spalling? Whatever you call it. I use a piece of foam on the back and front right now.

 

[0311 Hesco]

oops....wrong thread...

 

[JaysonF]

I have ceramic plates, I hate the weight of steel. It's already illegal for felons to possess body armor, that should be enough. But no, we need more "feel good laws" that do nothing but strip the public of its defense from its own government.

 

[Phil1]

I have been experimenting with different things to stop spall, spalling? Whatever you call it. I use a piece of foam on the back and front right now.

Armorco Online Ballistic Kevlar Fabrics Sells fabric and all sorts of other interesting material by the piece and yard.

 

[JaysonF]

Ballistic Kevlar to stop spalling, that'll be on the chopping block to. I would doubt you will find ar500 on there. It'll most likely name Kevlar and ceramic specifically and go for "anything made with the sole purpose of armoring a person".
Most people use level II Kevlar for spalling to good results.

 

[Deadshot2]

Sure, I don't want to go up against someone wearing level IIIA body armor let alone a level III plate carrier while I am on a call.

I've heard that head shots render body armor moot. Start at COM and work up.

 

[VoxPatriam]

I have been experimenting with different things to stop spall, spalling? Whatever you call it. I use a piece of foam on the back and front right now.

That must be some serious foam. The spalling from a jacketed round splashing on metal is pretty intense.

No one can really argue the weight difference or effectiveness of Caramic type plates vs steel, but here's some food for thought. How many legitimate threats can you think of for a civilian that would use AP ammo? If you're really in a scenario where you need body armor, you better hope whoever is engaging you is fixated on center of mass shots instead of disbling (pelvic) shots or head shots. How many times were the bank robbers in LA shot in the torso? How did no one think to try a head shot? I have to assume this is a training-ism. Even military helmets are only Level 3a armor. 5.56 ball rounds will go right through a 3a helmet. I've tried. At best a helmet will alter the path of a rifle bullet. I've met and heard of many guys that have taken a shot to the helmet and the bullet "rode the curve" of their helmet completely around their head.

 

[Smcarroll]

Its a very dense foam rubber, it adds a couple pounds but works surprisingly well. I have an m1 garand and a couple cans of black tip AP. I also have a great big bag of pulled 164 grain black tip AP. I like to be prepared. This thread makes me think of a tweaker a few years back that killed and injured several cops with a 1911 and survived 16 or so hits from their weapons. He laid on his side and shot at them from under a car. Take out a leg then shoot their head while they are on the ground.

 

[Deadshot2]

How did no one think to try a head shot? I have to assume this is a training-ism.

Our local LE Academy now teaches "2 COM and one head". It's part of the qual and the officer only get's 1.5 sec to shoot this "set".

In practice I just find it natural to allow my fire rise after two shots COM and into the "head" portion of the target.

For those who's arms get tired just let the pistol drop and take out the "family jewels".

As for the Hollywood shootout, a large factor was the range. The AK's kept officers back beyond effective pistol range and the game didn't change until some rifles wre brought into the mix. It's said that this event was the prime reason shotguns are gone from gun racks in cars and are replaced with patrol rifles.

 

[VoxPatriam]

For the sake of this conversation, I was assuming the threat wasn't the civilians. If you've got AP ammo or know how to make it, then well done brother. I've been researching how to make my own SLAP ammo for a while for pokes and giggles. I tig weld so I have plenty of little tungsten rods laying around. If you really wanna go nuts, look up a Raufoss round.
As for the DBag under the car, shoot the tires and drop the car on him. Arm chair quarterbacking these scenarios is a little harsh, but in my personal opinion, most LEO do not have an appropriate mind set or level of training to deal with an active shooter scenario. Even in the military, for those not in a "combat arms" job, our rifle qualifications are regularly treated as just a check in the box. Even in the combat arms jobs, we aren't as proficient as we could be for several reasons.
Long story short, it doesn't matter what your threat is. If you have the appropriate mind set and the disciplined training to back it up, you can come out on top. Not a guarantee, but it vastly increases your odds. Case in point: The DBAG under the car. He had enough sense to use a barricade and actually aim.

 

[VoxPatriam]

Our local LE Academy now teaches "2 COM and one head". It's part of the qual and the officer only get's 1.5 sec to shoot this "set".

In practice I just find it natural to allow my fire rise after two shots COM and into the "head" portion of the target.

For those who's arms get tired just let the pistol drop and take out the "family jewels".

As for the Hollywood shootout, a large factor was the range. The AK's kept officers back beyond effective pistol range and the game didn't change until some rifles wre brought into the mix. It's said that this event was the prime reason shotguns are gone from gun racks in cars and are replaced with patrol rifles.

Does anyone actually know how far away they were? What is a 9mm's lethal range (taking the shooter's accuracy out of the mix)? I definitely agree on the switch from shotguns to rifles. The issue I have with the Mozambique Drill (2 COM/1 Head) is that unless it's conducted extremely rapidly, your target's head isn't going to be in the same place. In practice what you wind up with is 1 COM shot, a flyer, and a shap shot off into the distance. Poorly instructed shooters will treat the three shots as muscle memory with little attention to the actual points of aim after the first shot. Pistols are actually much worse in that aspect than rifles in general. There are really a lot of factors to consider, but ultimately the one that matters is training and discipline.

 

[Smcarroll]

I wish I still had the link to the article, but he was taking them on in waves. The first couple cars had officers without rifles or shotguns. They exited the car and were gunned down. Just goes to show you that we can fight back. If one tweaker with a 1911 can take out 3 and injure several more then my well armed and armored ass has a chance.

 

[VoxPatriam]

Kinda makes you wonder at what point you can run the sucker over with the patrol car doesn't it? Or at least smash the car he's under. Sometimes overkill is just the right amount of kill.

I still find it hard to believe that any LEO or service member would actually use force against American citizens in one of these SHTF scenarios. Are there really people that brainwashed that they would violate our Constitutional and God-given rights? I certainly hope not, but I will be prepared if that does happen.

 

[Smcarroll]

Kinda makes you wonder at what point you can run the sucker over with the patrol car doesn't it? Or at least smash the car he's under. Sometimes overkill is just the right amount of kill.

I still find it hard to believe that any LEO or service member would actually use force against American citizens in one of these SHTF scenarios. Are there really people that brainwashed that they would violate our Constitutional and God-given rights? I certainly hope not, but I will be prepared if that does happen.

You just don't get what was going on. Patrol car pulls up, officers dismount and are killed. Second car arrives and same thing happens except officer #4 calls in a report on the shooter. They finally got the Guy after he was shot 16 times and he still survived.

The police violate our rights on a daily basis. Its an all too common occurrence.

 

[Hairball]

Most people use bed liner coatings on ar500 steel to stop spalling. Personally I prefer steel plates. If you order plates from AR500 you can have them regular coated or what they call "build up" which is very thick. If you do go the steel plate route, get the shooters cut in the front and get the plate curved and for the back, get a full size plate, flat, without the shooters cut to provide as much coverage as possible. The best plate carriers will also double as a level IIIA vest that will run about 400-500 over the regular cost of the plate carriers alone. While regulations on ceramic plates and level IIIA vests could be a concern with this bill, they can't stop the purchase of regular steel plates. Now depending upon your size (I have 11x14 plates) if you have concerns, purchase a regular plate carrier and then purchase two AR 500 "rifle targets" that just so happen to fit in the vest (coat them) and if the time comes, you put the targets in the vest and roll with it. When I retired we had both IIIA vests and plate carriers but I also have the level IIIA plate carriers that are more of a compact package than placing one on top of another. Funny thing, I just spoke to the folks at bulletproofme.com on Friday and they are looking at 4-6 weeks for regular orders and up to 8 on special order sizes. AR500.com takes about a month to get stuff (just in case anyone was wondering).

 

[VoxPatriam]

No I got that. The SHTF comment was more of a general statement not related to the incident with the tweaker. It's scary how much damage one jerk can do when they're determined and/or drugged up.

 

[VoxPatriam]

AR500 took longer than that and their customer service was crap. I ended up cancelling my order. If I order AR500 plates they will be from somewhere else. Waited months and was told repeatedly that they hadn't gotten to my order yet. When a customer pays you, you get the product to them as fast as possible. It's just good business.

 

[Hairball]

I did a custom order through them and received my stuff in a little over 3 weeks. But I guess there are examples of bad customer service in every business as I had similar issues with Mile High and US optics and everyone raves about them.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

I do not agree, when you say, "That is all that is needed", you are wrong. The use of a firearm in the commission of a felony is in most places already is a more serious crime, and in many places adds a mandatory sentence. The problem is the DA's and Feds 'deal down', and the low life piece of shit that committed the crime(s) in the first place, get off on a 'lesser' charge. Felons with guns, if all felons caught by LE were, in fact, charged and given Federal Prison time, without exception-the gun crime rate would drop dramatically, however; as long as DAs and US Attorneys continue to make deals, drop the gun crime charges (based on who is being charged) etc. these laws become 'pick and choose who they'll apply to' by the prosecutors. Real Americans do not support laws that only apply to some people, some will be charged others will not, in short the law only applies to some and not others.

It is all that is needed, a state law on the books which does exist in several states already to my knowledge. With a law on the books that guarantees a minimum sentence under a conviction the prosecutor's cannot provide a "deal" lower than the minimum on these sorts of cases. On your more serious cases the deals are generally not all the favorable, but are better than facing the possibility of the maximum sentence. How much do you truly know about the legal system by personal experience vs what you hear?

Regarding your statement, where you state that you'd rather not "go up against someone wearing a level IIIA body armor", I'm sure you wouldn't want to go up against someone with a 2gal bucket full of gasoline and motor oil, and a road flare, or up against anyone at all. Politicos wanting to limit the tax payers from protective gear has ominous overtones. Making it illegal for convicted felons to own weapons-good idea, making it illegal for convicted felons to have body armor-good idea, making it mandatory for DAs and Federal Attorneys to prosecute convicted felons with guns-without favor or 'dealing down', a real must if we are ever going to go back to the rule of law.

You are taking my statements out of context by using only a portion of my post. The reason why I mention rather not going up against someone with body armor is because it's not an ideal situation for LE to go up against. You've eliminated the context of my statement by cherry picking. Use of the proceeding statement of me mocking the idea of this law being another example of the nanny state at work or the following statement that the implementation of this law would be just as bad as gun control or the failed war on drugs kills the context. (i.e. even as a police officer I do not support the passage of this)

 

[Scotts556]

Not the worst thing. If you put them behind kevlar soft armor you're golden. AR500armor.com sells them with some kind of line-x spall coating too. The only time it would suck is trying to use a compass.

Ill shut up and go back to my corner. SHould of looked before I shot my mouth off.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

I've heard that head shots render body armor moot. Start at COM and work up.

Easy on a square range. Not so much in a dynamic situation where someone is firing back at you and you're stuck in your 3A armor as the officer and you have a suspect wearing 3A or better armor who already has the jump on you in an ambush situation or pretty much any other situation where a patrol officer is not going to have their long gun with them. Factor in the distance between the shooter who doesn't give a shit what his back drop is vs the officer who is accountable for where that round goes and his back drop and you can't always guarantee that a head shot is going to be available.

Either way, I still do not support ban on body armor just as much as I do not agree with gun control or the failed drug war. It's all just another example of the nanny state.

 

[VoxPatriam]

Ill shut up and go back to my corner. SHould of looked before I shot my mouth off.

No big deal. An AR 500 bare plate by itself is definitely a bad idea. If I'm rocking a bare steel plat the poo has hit the fan at levels I can't fathom though.

Easy on a square range. Not so much in a dynamic situation where someone is firing back at you and you're stuck in your 3A armor as the officer and you have a suspect wearing 3A or better armor who already has the jump on you in an ambush situation or pretty much any other situation where a patrol officer is not going to have their long gun with them. Factor in the distance between the shooter who doesn't give a shit what his back drop is vs the officer who is accountable for where that round goes and his back drop and you can't always guarantee that a head shot is going to be available.

Either way, I still do not support ban on body armor just as much as I do not agree with gun control or the failed drug war. It's all just another example of the nanny state.

Training strikes again. Suppression is key. One officer can suppress (shoot the guy anywhere he can) while another lines up a well aimed shot or 12. The goal being to keep the threat as stationary as possible and focused on one thing. I agree it's much simpler in theory than in practice, but it does work. And if all else fails, I still vote to duck behind the engine block and ram the sucker with the patrol car.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Training strikes again. Suppression is key. One officer can suppress (shoot the guy anywhere he can) while another lines up a well aimed shot or 12. The goal being to keep the threat as stationary as possible and focused on one thing. I agree it's much simpler in theory than in practice, but it does work. And if all else fails, I still vote to duck behind the engine block and ram the sucker with the patrol car.

Yes, in an ideal scenario where backup on scene that is definitely one possible and very effective option. But in many places that do not have large PDs and backup is minutes away a lone officer who has found himself in that situation it may not be possible. My point is that some people here act as if there is a magic solution to everything.

And yes, training is definitely key. Thankfully a lot of the training has come a long way and the trainers are teaching students to be more resourceful, but there's no magic single one answer. Use of the car as a weapon is always an option in my book.

 

[VoxPatriam]

Absolutely. I'm just suggesting it as something to train to. Hind sight is 20/10. When the SHTF the best option is the one that brings the good guys home. If there is a magic solution to every situation I wish someone had told me about it in the desert.

 

[W54/XM-388]

My guess is the oppressors are concerned that some of their soon to be victims of police murder will live to tell their side of the story.
Funny how the same people who don't want you to have any guns to defend yourself also don't want you to have any purely passive purely defensive items to try to keep yourself from getting murdered by either oppressors or criminals.

Just you wait... first it is: "Military grade Assault body armor" then next it is anything that might let you survive a run in with your local oppressor force ... Just ask people in other countries how the story went.

In the end the oppressor class wants the public to be sheep for the slaughter, either by them or sometimes by wolves to keep them scared.

 

[Sharpsman]

And THEN....we've had these two 'goons' supposedly wearing body armor and whereby just one old country boy armed with his hunting rifle could have fired two shots and made head shots and prevented the entire encounter! But THAT was way beyond the capability of the LA Swat Squad!!

North Hollywood shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Brasscow]

Absolutely. I'm just suggesting it as something to train to. Hind sight is 20/10. When the SHTF the best option is the one that brings the good guys home. If there is a magic solution to every situation I wish someone had told me about it in the desert.

 

[VoxPatriam]

[MENTION=31259]Brasscow[/MENTION] Notice how I failed to specify who the good guys are?

 

[Switchblade]

face, groin, thighs are where all the good arteries and veins are. Remember, not so long ago we lost one of our deployed members who was trying to save his buddies in an attack to a flowing femoral artery injury he sustained during the ambush.
If it kills ours, it will kill theirs just as fast. Learn your targets, apply aimpoints to improvise, adapt, and overcome

 

[Brasscow]

[MENTION=31259]Brasscow[/MENTION] Notice how I failed to specify who the good guys are?

 

[JaysonF]

The writing is clearly on the wall with the measures which have been passed over the last 10 years. I just want to be left alone with my family. I'm certain I'll be moving to Alaska. I just want to be away from this mentality and nonsense.
Shitty thing is, if you want to be left alone, anonymous people will call the cops and tell them you molest children. Then there will be a siege and if you surrender (if you are even given the opportunity), you'll be found guilty of something, anything. If you don't surrender, they'll fire thermite grenades into your house and let you and your family burn alive.
It's not America anymore.
Best case scenario, there will be a revolution. Worse case scenario, it will spiral into tyranny. Either way, I don't want my family in the kill-zone.
I think cops should be armed and protected, but the only thing to keep our government honest is to afford citizens the same means of which to protect themselves.
When you compare our current society to medieval times, the monarchy which we fled is starkly apparent on our own soil. Sure, they have different titles and on some levels are "elected", but this is a far stretch from what the founding fathers had imagined.

 

[Switchblade]

Being left alone is great, but at what cost to all free men? Would your choice to be left alone rise above that of making a stand? What then is so valuable as to cost life when it is not to stand, but to walk away to be left alone? Does one walk until the bully pushes from behind, or does one simply stop, turn around, and fight? How far ya gonna walk?

 

[JaysonF]

Being left alone is great, but at what cost to all free men? Would your choice to be left alone rise above that of making a stand? What then is so valuable as to cost life when it is not to stand, but to walk away to be left alone? Does one walk until the bully pushes from behind, or does one simply stop, turn around, and fight? How far ya gonna walk?

I have no problem with standing for what I believe in, however that is not a decision I will make lightly. I am not a single, reckless guy who could give a crap about living anymore. I have a family and my number one priority is to assure their safety and survival. What good am I to them if I'm dead in a field somewhere else. I didn't have kids while I was in the military for that reason. It is easy to be hypothetical and argue the "save America through a revolution" aspect. If I was younger, sure. But I have to accept that the role in my life has changed.
I am a man, I am a husband, I am a father. My purpose is to protect those which I cherish. My job is to be here and uphold my word to my wife and kids. I did my time as a "nothing to lose" infantry Marine.
I will try my best to avoid altercation whenever possible to avoid putting my family at risk; however, should the fight come to my front door, it would leave me no choice.

 

[jake6547]

Yea and wood stove doors, what movie was that in?

As long as there is man hole covers, there'll be body armor.....................................and holes in the road.

 

[jake6547]

double

 

[Doc68]

And from a few posts in this thread just goes to show why we fought for our freedoms back in 1775. There is no reason we should have to live in fear of our government. We are slipping fast down this slippery slope we find ourselves on. Our fore fathers fought over a tax on a beverage(and other issues also). How many times can you poke a bear before he lashes out. Our government is so out of touch with "the people" these days. They haven't got a clue. It's all about them and they could care less about the American people. Everything these days is taxed and soon the internet will be taxed also. When is it enough? Our government will tax us into and past the grave and not even have a hiccup doing so.

Crazydoc