Barbarossa

[Dougie308]

For the history buffs, today is the anniversary of Hitler’s attack on the Soviets. Four million troops on a 2900 miles front. An attack the would eventually take about 40 million lives on both sides.

Hitler did not know the dictum “He who crosses the Volga is doomed”.

 

[Alphatreedog]

Holy crap . Forty million lives ?

 

[Soulezoo]

A bit over stated, but still a lot. More civilians died in WWII than soldiers. The Russkies killed 3/4's of the German Army. Yet the German Army had a 7-1 kill ratio. Japan was slightly higher... and yet both lost.

This is still debated by experts to this day. There are those that insist that there was never going to be any other outcome than what really happened due to the magnitude of manpower and resources that the USSR had. Essentially, let the German hammer wear itself out against the Soviet anvil.

Others are of the mind that if Germany simply spearheaded an attack directly to the Caucasus oilfields, then Germany would solve what was their biggest Achilles heel and would have starved the USSR for petroleum and ended the war in the east in about 6 months or so. T-34s don't run on air. Factories don't make shit without electricity and so on. Approximately 90-95% of Soviet oil came from the Caucasus. It still does.

 

[TheGerman]

I was on vacation.

 

[Dougie308]

The Russians lost roughly 25 million people (military and civilian) and the Germans lost about 20 million in military and civilian losses between the battles in Russia, Germany, Poland and the rest.

Holy crap . Forty million lives ?

 

[Dirty D]

The Russians lost roughly 25 million people (military and civilian) and the Germans lost about 20 million in military and civilian losses between the battles in Russia, Germany, Poland and the rest.

Citizens are little more than cannon fodder in Communist/Socialist ideology.

 

[W54/XM-388]

One of many mistakes the Germans made that sealed their fate in WWII

Had they kept the peace with the soviets and spent as much time and effort as they did on the eastern front onto capturing England and Ireland at all cost, the war would have played out very differently and most likely mid east oil would then have been theirs for the taking.
Oh and NOT declared war on America in the false hope it would make the Japanese help them.

But like most Europeans the German culture, mentality, rigidity and worship of their government and "orders" is why they could never stand up to the Americans no matter how great technology they worked on. The kind of war machine America has is unlike anything else the rest of the world ever came up with. Driven mostly because of the people and culture in America (till they started destroying it from within). It's why to this day when we send our army to actually go do something without tying their hands behind their backs, there is no country on the planet that can stand up to it (even all of them put together).

 

[W54/XM-388]

Citizens are little more than cannon fodder in Communist/Socialist ideology.

Yes, but it is an effective if brutal and uncaring option when going up against a better enemy that has smaller numbers.
The Chinese Communists did it to us in Korea and it worked since the stupid politicians on our end decided they wanted to loose the war.

Now if you are willing to pull out the nukes that no longer works.... so why do you think the communists on a global level have worked to make us hesitant / afraid / unwilling to use our nukes..... Remember the Chinese didn't pull their stunt in Korea till our state department traitors leaked to them that the spineless politicians had taken the nuclear option firmly off the table.

It's why I'm very pro nuke, it saves American lives and the lives of our enemies.
The Chinese act all tough now days.... I bet had we dropped a 2 to 5 pack of 50MT+ low radiation nukes in the mountains of Afghanistan to take care of Osama and all the rest of his gang (as well as send a message to the Muslim crazies in SA), the Chinese would be a lot more careful about provoking us with their fake "islands".....

 

[Dirty D]

When faced with American technology the Soviets had a saying that “quantity has a quality all its own”. I can’t agree more on the effectiveness of this approach, I made my statement as a warning to anyone wanting a Communist/Socialist state here, being cannon fodder isn’t even on their radar.

 

[Dirty D]

Yes, but it is an effective if brutal and uncaring option when going up against a better enemy that has smaller numbers.
The Chinese Communists did it to us in Korea and it worked since the stupid politicians on our end decided they wanted to loose the war.

My dad told me stories of unending waves of NK and ChiCom soldiers marching into Americans dug in with heavy machine guns, his gaze went off past 1000 yards when he said they never stopped coming.

 

[W54/XM-388]

My dad told me stories of unending waves of NK and ChiCom soldiers marching into Americans dug in with heavy machine guns, his gaze went off past 1000 yards when he said they never stopped coming.

Yep, and that's how they won, nukes would have stopped them in their tracks.

The Chinese lost over a million solders in that war, but they count it as a great victory in the annals of communist history.
I guess with a Billion, loosing a million is chump change, especially since Mao killed 60 to 70 million of his own people without being bothered.

 

[McReef]

Citizens are little more than cannon fodder in Communist/Socialist ideology.

A function of modern warfare really, not so much communism/socialism, though I hate to miss a chance to bash that ideology.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Yes, but it is an effective if brutal and uncaring option when going up against a better enemy that has smaller numbers.
The Chinese Communists did it to us in Korea and it worked since the stupid politicians on our end decided they wanted to loose the war.

Now if you are willing to pull out the nukes that no longer works.... so why do you think the communists on a global level have worked to make us hesitant / afraid / unwilling to use our nukes..... Remember the Chinese didn't pull their stunt in Korea till our state department traitors leaked to them that the spineless politicians had taken the nuclear option firmly off the table.

It's why I'm very pro nuke, it saves American lives and the lives of our enemies.
The Chinese act all tough now days.... I bet had we dropped a 2 to 5 pack of 50MT+ low radiation nukes in the mountains of Afghanistan to take care of Osama and all the rest of his gang (as well as send a message to the Muslim crazies in SA), the Chinese would be a lot more careful about provoking us with their fake "islands".....

ABSOLUTELY.

I'm not an advocate of 'nuclear war'. I truly AM an advocate of using the nukes to END the war(s) decisively. And quickly. And make other despots and tyrants THINK and REMEMBER that they'll be next.

Civility ain't hard.

 

[Blue Sky Country]

Holy crap . Forty million lives ?

The single largest catastrophe in human history with the highest death toll. The medieval Black Death is far surpassed by WWII. And on top of that, you got another 40-50 million civilians who died at the hands of totalitarian socialist governments all over the world before and after the war. Thus, the 20th century can be considered the darkest century in humanity's annals. But it was also a time of the most astonishing growth of science and technology. The splitting of the atom and the race to space. Science fiction author H. Beam Piper often refers to the 20th century as "First Century, Atomic Era".

 

[308pirate]

Others are of the mind that if Germany simply spearheaded an attack directly to the Caucasus oilfields, then Germany would solve what was their biggest Achilles heel and would have starved the USSR for petroleum and ended the war in the east in about 6 months or so. T-34s don't run on air. Factories don't make shit without electricity and so on. Approximately 90-95% of Soviet oil came from the Caucasus. It still does.

I am one of them. I am convinced that if Adolf Hitler had not been a micromanager and instead paid attention to his general and admiralty staff, WW2 would have developed MUCH differently. And possibly not in a good way.

 

[EddieNFL]

My dad told me stories of unending waves of NK and ChiCom soldiers marching into Americans dug in with heavy machine guns, his gaze went off past 1000 yards when he said they never stopped coming.

Growing up my dad never told me squat about Korea. After I was stationed there, he told me a very few things that hinted at what he saw. Never saw him with his eyes closed...even in death.

 

[EddieNFL]

I am one of them. I am convinced that if Adolf Hitler had not been a micromanager and instead paid attention to his general and admiralty staff, WW2 would have developed MUCH differently. And possibly not in a good way.

He had a significant impact on the outcome of D-Day.

 

[pmclaine]

He had a significant impact on the outcome of D-Day.

The leader working the hardest to promote our cause that day.

 

[Mr.BR]

A bit over stated, but still a lot. More civilians died in WWII than soldiers. The Russkies killed 3/4's of the German Army. Yet the German Army had a 7-1 kill ratio. Japan was slightly higher... and yet both lost.

This is still debated by experts to this day. There are those that insist that there was never going to be any other outcome than what really happened due to the magnitude of manpower and resources that the USSR had. Essentially, let the German hammer wear itself out against the Soviet anvil.

Others are of the mind that if Germany simply spearheaded an attack directly to the Caucasus oilfields, then Germany would solve what was their biggest Achilles heel and would have starved the USSR for petroleum and ended the war in the east in about 6 months or so. T-34s don't run on air. Factories don't make shit without electricity and so on. Approximately 90-95% of Soviet oil came from the Caucasus. It still does.

Most historians representations of war in the east are deeply flawed by very narrow range of German sources .


Adolphs take.


Far more valid take on east front comes from Glantz

 

[Mr.BR]

One of many mistakes the Germans made that sealed their fate in WWII

Had they kept the peace with the soviets and spent as much time and effort as they did on the eastern front onto capturing England and Ireland at all cost, the war would have played out very differently and most likely mid east oil would then have been theirs for the taking.
Oh and NOT declared war on America in the false hope it would make the Japanese help them.

But like most Europeans the German culture, mentality, rigidity and worship of their government and "orders" is why they could never stand up to the Americans no matter how great technology they worked on. The kind of war machine America has is unlike anything else the rest of the world ever came up with. Driven mostly because of the people and culture in America (till they started destroying it from within). It's why to this day when we send our army to actually go do something without tying their hands behind their backs, there is no country on the planet that can stand up to it (even all of them put together).

I think you missed the point war with the west was a side project , nazi idelology of Blut and Boden + Lebensraum targeted the lands in the east as new settlers paradise. Have you ever heard of Ensatzgrupen ,death squads there were never any on the west front but started work in the east on day 1 .

Obersalzberg Speech prior to invasion of Poland.
''
Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter – with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It's a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me. I have issued the command – and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad – that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head(totenkopf) formation in readiness – for the present only in the East – with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians? '''


Japan might have helped them if it was not fighting the war with US , that is why almost till Stalingrad soviets kept half of the army in the east. They fought wars with Japan number of times and feared Japan might strike while they were fighting the Germans.

This is what Adolph and co. aspired to. War in the west was just a small warmup for genocidal march into the east.
They wanted to settle the new lands with Wehrbauer, a soldier–farmer who was to maintain a fortified line of defence. Why the east , because no one could block , sanction ,blockade Germany if it possesed own resources and was independed of the international tradeways.

 

[pmclaine]

Most historians representations of war in the east are deeply flawed by very narrow range of German sources .


Adolphs take.


Far more valid take on east front comes from Glantz

I will have to watch these.

Sure they will be good history.

In the mean time a quick gist of what I will see/hear?

 

[pmclaine]

I think you missed the point war with the west wasa a side project , nazi idelogy of lebensraum targeted the lands in the east as new settlers paradise. Have you ever heard of Ensatzgrupen ,death squads there were never any on the west front .

Obersalzberg Speech prior to invasion of Poland.
''
Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter – with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It's a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me. I have issued the command – and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad – that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head(totenkopf) formation in readiness – for the present only in the East – with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians? '''



Japan might have helped them if it was nto fighting the war with US , that is why almost till Stalingrad soviets kept almost half of the army in the east. The fought wars with Japan number of times and feared Japan might strike while they were fighting the Germans.

This is what Adolph and co. aspired to. War in the west was just a small warmup for genocidal march into the east.
They wanted to settle the new lands with Wehrbauer, a soldier–peasant who was to maintain a fortified line of defence. Why the east , because no one could block , sanction ,blockade Germany if it possesed own resources and was independed of the international tradeways.

Ill agree in that regard.

AH wanted to humiliate France, hoped the English would negotiate and possibly ally.

Russia wanted no part of Japan perhaps remembering past encounters, only marching when one enemy was defeated and Japan was on its death bed.

 

[Mr.BR]

I will have to watch these.

Sure they will be good history.

In the mean time a quick gist of what I will see/hear?

Hitler explaining to Mannerheim how suprised he was by Soviet capacity they encountered and scale of miltary industry in ukraine (tank plants) he never taught its possible. And how if he knew he would have prepared better.

Glantz went trough Soviet archives and compiled the most comprehensive record of East front any one in the west ever seen. Puting the scale of the fight in understandable context ,sheer scale of combat there is mindblowing.

 

[pmclaine]

Europa!

Hitler would likely embrace Angela Merkel in her efforts except she may be a little to inclined to the east due to her upbringing.

Put the two of them together and they can certainly shake a martini.

 

[niteshooter]

My dad told me stories of unending waves of NK and ChiCom soldiers marching into Americans dug in with heavy machine guns, his gaze went off past 1000 yards when he said they never stopped coming.

Similar to my grandfather the handful of times he briefly spoke of being there. And only once I was grown. As kids it wasn’t brought up around us.
There was an old rusty folding shovel he brought on camping trips and an uncle commented jokingly once if that was his from Korea. I was a kid and didn’t fully grasp that comment until I was much older.

With him on his second pacemaker and out of respect I don’t pry.
He was USMC, drove half tracks hauling artillary guns into place.
Writing this got me to thinking I need to get my ass over there and visit him on my days off later this week. Been a while.

 

[pmclaine]

Hitler expainign to Mannerheim how suprised he was by soviet capacity they encountered and scale of miltary industry in ukraine (tank plants) he never taught its possible. And how if he knew he would have prepared better.

Glantz went trough Soviet archives and complied the most comprehensive record of East front any one in the west ever seen. Puting the scale of the fight in understandable context.

With intel on the CCCP its easy to consider there mil would be rudderless.

He forgot what the last guy that lost there said

"The moral is to the physical as three to one"

If nothing else the Russians get emotional when it comes to the Motherland.

For that reason alone he should have brought winter boots and jackets.

Regards the scale of the Eastern Front - unthinkable.

Like the Pacific except there was no escape from the shit.

Our work in the west had its moments and its meat grinders - Hurtgen Forest comes to mind but the brutality of what occured in the east is not really known.

Forgotten Soldier is the light version of it.

 

[pmclaine]

My dad told me stories of unending waves of NK and ChiCom soldiers marching into Americans dug in with heavy machine guns, his gaze went off past 1000 yards when he said they never stopped coming.

Read the story of Hector Cafferata and his award of the Medal of Honor.

Talk about a situation that would seem hopeless when the realization it was keep doing what you are doing or certainly die is the moment you are in.

Hector Cafferata must of felt like Sysiphus.

 

[cornhusker86]

If Hitler hadn't ordered the panzers to halt just short of Dunkirk, the Brits would have capitulated. That set the precedent for the rest of the war. His meddling hamstrung the German military.

 

[pmclaine]

If Hitler hadn't ordered the panzers to halt just short of Dunkirk, the Brits would have capitulated. That set the precedent for the rest of the war. His meddling hamstrung the German military.

He still hoped to negotiate with the Brits.

and contrary to conventional wisdom...the French actually fought really well in the defense of Dunkirk which the Brits used the time provided to.........drop their once fired Enfields and run like..........Frenchmen.

It all hinges on whose propaganda department gets to write the history.

 

[cornhusker86]

He still hoped to negotiate with the Brits.

and contrary to conventional wisdom...the French actually fought really well in the defense of Dunkirk which the Brits used the time provided to.........drop their once fired Enfields and run like..........Frenchmen.

It all hinges on whose propaganda department gets to write the history.

Just my own speculation here, but if negotiation was the goal, he could have captured them all [ Brits and Frenchmen ] and used them as bargaining chips. It was a chaotic situation that could have been exploited.

 

[Mr.BR]

Europa!

Hitler would likely embrace Angela Merkel in her efforts except she may be a little to inclined to the east due to her upbringing.

Put the two of them together and they can certainly shake a martini.

Angla Merkel is a fraud , most overrated and overhyped politican .
Germany courrent economic condition is largely resoult of at the time unpopular reforms done under previous kanzler Schroeder that brought Germany from being in the red firmly into the black and she just rode on his work ,taking credit for economys succes.

Merkel reformed jack shit , is also not decisive in any way . Her favorite aproach to things is wait and see how the wind blows and then decide to go along after carefully testing support or just wait and see and do nothing let things happen then just comment if SHF or take credit for it if they work out.That unfortunately also resoulted in courrent islamic invasion she unleashed on Europe.

Dumb cow not being able to separate propaganda used to achieve regime change at any cost from reality ,of course German plebs at the time believed all the BS MSM was selling so she assumed which way wind was blowing.

 

[pmclaine]

Just my own speculation here, but if negotiation was the goal, he could have captured them all [ Brits and Frenchmen ] and used them as bargaining chips. It was a chaotic situation that could have been exploited.

I think his troops in the west were exhausted, probably incapable of conducting the battle needed to destroy the two enemies, Italy was fucking things up in other theaters and there was other conquests on the things to do list.

You destroy armies, not use them as bargaining chips.

The bargain is "Unless you want all your guys dead....surrender"

 

[pmclaine]

Angla Merkel is a fraud , most overrated and overhyped politican .
Germany courrent economic condition is largely resoult of at the time unpopular reforms done under previous kanzler Schroeder that brought Germany from being in the red firmly into the black and she just rode on his work ,taking credit for economys succes.

Merkel reformed jack shit , is also not decisive in any way . Her favorite aproach to things is wait and see how the wind blows and then decide to go along after carefully testing support or just wait and see and do nothing let things happen then just comment if SHF or take credit for it if they work out.That unfortunately also resoulted in courrent islamic invasion she unleashed on Europe.

Dumb cow not being able to separate propaganda used to achieve regime change at any cost from reality ,of course German plebs at the time believed all the BS MSM was selling so she assumed which way wind was blowing.

Opposite to, yet so like Obama in many ways.

Yes she is merely a puppet to others that call the plays but it is under her tutelage the EU is trying to end national identities using the German economy as prop or cudgel as needs be.

Damn those pesky former east bloc barking dogs for inciting revolt and clinging to their identity.

All the other countries of the old western Europe are to full of SOMA to care.

Even the yellow vests have petered out and it looks like tight pants, pointy shoes, geriatric fucker is going to be safe.

 

[cornhusker86]

I think his troops in the west were exhausted, probably incapable of conducting the battle needed to destroy the two enemies, Italy was fucking things up in other theaters and there was other conquests on the things to do list.

You destroy armies, not use them as bargaining chips.

The bargain is "Unless you want all your guys dead....surrender"

I agree that's the case in most situations. In this case they had their backs against the water. He had the advantage and failed to press it. IMO they would have surrendered. Georgie Patton would have pressed the attack.

 

[pmclaine]

I agree that's the case in most situations. In this case they had their backs against the water. He had the advantage and failed to press it. IMO they would have surrendered. Georgie Patton would have pressed the attack.

Ike had better discipline than Patton when it came to strategic goals. See Task Force Baum.

Brits and French get all manly when it comes to defensive battles.

You read their histories glory stories its always about 30 guys holding off 10,000 Zulus, holding up in a farm in a Belgian field or in the case of the French being surrounded by Durka Durka while wearing a Kepi and having the whole detachment wiped out while being brave - see Dien Bien Phu.

Germans had to lick their wounds not get slogged into a perimeter battle with Brits and French.

Keeping the Brits isolated on their Island was as good as a victory.

Declaring war on the US just because Japan did was the mistake.

Any way, in this matter Im in agreement with @Mr.BR going east was the focus and that gamble had to be won early as a war of attrition wasnt going to favor a Blitzkrieg force with only so much vehicle capacity and only a shit ton of horse flesh for Plan B.

 

[Mr.BR]

The whole world remembers d-day and barbarossa .....
The biggest and most bloody defeat of the German military history, which began 75 years ago today, is mostly forgotten. Operation Bagration

 

[cornhusker86]

Ike had better discipline than Patton when it came to strategic goals. See Task Force Baum.

Brits and French get all manly when it comes to defensive battles.

You read their histories glory stories its always about 30 guys holding off 10,000 Zulus, holding up in a farm in a Belgian field or in the case of the French being surrounded by Durka Durka while wearing a Kepi and having the whole detachment wiped out while being brave - see Dien Bien Phu.

Germans had to lick their wounds not get slogged into a perimeter battle with Brits and French.

Keeping the Brits isolated on their Island was as good as a victory.

Declaring war on the US just because Japan did was the mistake.

Any way, in this matter Im in agreement with @Mr.BR going east was the focus and that gamble had to be won early as a war of attrition wasnt going to favor a Blitzkrieg force with only so much vehicle capacity and only a shit ton of horse flesh for Plan B.

If I'm not mistaken, you have a degree in history, so I'll defer to you. I formed my opinions by watching WW2 documentaries on Saturday mornings instead of cartoons.

 

[Mr.BR]

He still hoped to negotiate with the Brits.

and contrary to conventional wisdom...the French actually fought really well in the defense of Dunkirk which the Brits used the time provided to.........drop their once fired Enfields and run like..........Frenchmen.

It all hinges on whose propaganda department gets to write the history.

Ike had better discipline than Patton when it came to strategic goals. See Task Force Baum.

Brits and French get all manly when it comes to defensive battles.

You read their histories glory stories its always about 30 guys holding off 10,000 Zulus, holding up in a farm in a Belgian field or in the case of the French being surrounded by Durka Durka while wearing a Kepi and having the whole detachment wiped out while being brave - see Dien Bien Phu.

Germans had to lick their wounds not get slogged into a perimeter battle with Brits and French.

Keeping the Brits isolated on their Island was as good as a victory.

Declaring war on the US just because Japan did was the mistake.

Any way, in this matter Im in agreement with @Mr.BR going east was the focus and that gamble had to be won early as a war of attrition wasnt going to favor a Blitzkrieg force with only so much vehicle capacity and only a shit ton of horse flesh for Plan B.

French contrary to popular lore are the nation that fought and won most battles of any from antiquity to modernity

In Dien Bien Phu more nazis probably died than the ethnic French. Most of the Legionares and Paratroopers were German and other former nazi troops .

Oursourcing the fighting is soon enough folowed by demise of the Empire. Much of WW2 Free French ,the ones actualy fightng the war (not the ones baking Baguetes) were the French colonial subjects not quite 'Free' more than 40K of them KIA in Europe

Free French army ww2 included
200,000 Algerians
100,000 Tunisians
40,000 Moroccans
100,000 West Africans
5,000 Somalis and Libyans

 

[pmclaine]

French contrary to popular lore are the nation that fought and won most battles of any from antiquity to modernity

In Dien Bien Phu more nazis probably died than the ethnic French. Most of the Legionares and Paratroopers were German and other former nazi troops .

Oursourcing the fighting is soon enough folowed by demise of the Empire. Much of WW2 Free French ,the ones actualy fightng the war (not the ones baking Baguetes) were the French colonial subjects not quite 'Free' more than 40K of them KIA in Europe

Free French army ww2 included
200,000 Algerians
100,000 Tunisians
40,000 Moroccans
100,000 West Africans
5,000 Somalis and Libyans (French army)

But its the battles they lost the world remembers. Their impact on western civ being huge.

During the US involvement in VN it was rumored some of those SS were fighting with the North, as well as Russians, - the mythical "White VC" - possibly a US deserter, maybe Robert Garwood.

We had our own Waffen SS vets...

Lauri Törni - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lauri Torni was designed for chaos.

 

[j-huskey]

^^^ Larry Thorne, Lauri Torni, a mans man.
A warrior is a warrior is a warrior.

Born to it. The world was diminished by his passing...

 

[oneshot86]

warrior, period.