Well in the never ending search to improve on things (plus I'm about to run out) I've decided to see what else is out there and what others use?
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Gunsmithing Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
- Thread starter RWSGunsmithing
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Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
Hi temp locktite. It provides wet torque to get the barrel on. and then cures so it doesn't 'lube' the barrel and allow it to get loose.
Hi temp locktite. It provides wet torque to get the barrel on. and then cures so it doesn't 'lube' the barrel and allow it to get loose.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
Nickel based anti-seize, torque is dependent upon the thread geometry and receiver.
Nickel based anti-seize, torque is dependent upon the thread geometry and receiver.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nickel based anti-seize, torque is dependent upon the thread geometry and receiver. </div></div>
Good point I guess I should have been more specific on the application. Lets for the sake of makeing it simple and say the receiver is a 700 based action with 1.062 for the custom actions and 1.072 for blueprinted receivers and 16 tpi.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nickel based anti-seize, torque is dependent upon the thread geometry and receiver. </div></div>
Good point I guess I should have been more specific on the application. Lets for the sake of makeing it simple and say the receiver is a 700 based action with 1.062 for the custom actions and 1.072 for blueprinted receivers and 16 tpi.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
ETA: I chose that based upon certain stability conditions for certain calibers and calculated based upon bolt thrust loads for a given setup.
A lubricated steel/steel joint has a K~=0.07-0.08, let's use 0.075
T = K*F*d
F = T/(K*d) = 100ft-lb*(12in/lb)/(0.075*1.067in) ~ 15,000lb of axial force generated.
This is ample to stabilize the joint in a 308 sized case head that generates <10,000lb of bolt thrust.
Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
ETA: I chose that based upon certain stability conditions for certain calibers and calculated based upon bolt thrust loads for a given setup.
A lubricated steel/steel joint has a K~=0.07-0.08, let's use 0.075
T = K*F*d
F = T/(K*d) = 100ft-lb*(12in/lb)/(0.075*1.067in) ~ 15,000lb of axial force generated.
This is ample to stabilize the joint in a 308 sized case head that generates <10,000lb of bolt thrust.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
</div></div>
Hardened recoil lugs?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
</div></div>
Hardened recoil lugs?
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
</div></div>
Hardened recoil lugs? </div></div>
Always
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
</div></div>
Hardened recoil lugs? </div></div>
Always
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
White lithium grease on threads and 50 ft.lbs. of torque has always worked well for me. Most of my rifles are switch barrels. Paul.
White lithium grease on threads and 50 ft.lbs. of torque has always worked well for me. Most of my rifles are switch barrels. Paul.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
</div></div>
Hardened recoil lugs? </div></div>
Always </div></div>
Where are you getting hardened lugs?
Every lug I've had in shop from every brand Ive tried has not been hardened.
We have to bore open lugs in our mill from 1.062ish to 1.075". My poor little boring bar wouldn't cut a hardened lug.
Edited: Might be more like 75 ft/pounds after thinking about it more. We put em on tight, but I dont know if we're quite at 100 pounds. Haven't used a torque wrench on one yet.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
</div></div>
Hardened recoil lugs? </div></div>
Always </div></div>
Where are you getting hardened lugs?
Every lug I've had in shop from every brand Ive tried has not been hardened.
We have to bore open lugs in our mill from 1.062ish to 1.075". My poor little boring bar wouldn't cut a hardened lug.
Edited: Might be more like 75 ft/pounds after thinking about it more. We put em on tight, but I dont know if we're quite at 100 pounds. Haven't used a torque wrench on one yet.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
Nickel based anti-seize is best.
Lots of people think copper flakes is a sign of a quality anti-seize, when actually copper is just a cheap filler that the consumer expects to see.
Nickel based anti-seize is best.
Lots of people think copper flakes is a sign of a quality anti-seize, when actually copper is just a cheap filler that the consumer expects to see.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
ETA: I chose that based upon certain stability conditions for certain calibers and calculated based upon bolt thrust loads for a given setup.
A lubricated steel/steel joint has a K~=0.07-0.08, let's use 0.075
T = K*F*d
F = T/(K*d) = 100ft-lb*(12in/lb)/(0.075*1.067in) ~ 15,000lb of axial force generated.
This is ample to stabilize the joint in a 308 sized case head that generates <10,000lb of bolt thrust. </div></div>
You are the biggest nerd I know!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
ETA: I chose that based upon certain stability conditions for certain calibers and calculated based upon bolt thrust loads for a given setup.
A lubricated steel/steel joint has a K~=0.07-0.08, let's use 0.075
T = K*F*d
F = T/(K*d) = 100ft-lb*(12in/lb)/(0.075*1.067in) ~ 15,000lb of axial force generated.
This is ample to stabilize the joint in a 308 sized case head that generates <10,000lb of bolt thrust. </div></div>
You are the biggest nerd I know!!!
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
ETA: I chose that based upon certain stability conditions for certain calibers and calculated based upon bolt thrust loads for a given setup.
A lubricated steel/steel joint has a K~=0.07-0.08, let's use 0.075
T = K*F*d
F = T/(K*d) = 100ft-lb*(12in/lb)/(0.075*1.067in) ~ 15,000lb of axial force generated.
This is ample to stabilize the joint in a 308 sized case head that generates <10,000lb of bolt thrust. </div></div>
You are the biggest nerd I know!!!
</div></div>
There's a method to the madness...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
ETA: I chose that based upon certain stability conditions for certain calibers and calculated based upon bolt thrust loads for a given setup.
A lubricated steel/steel joint has a K~=0.07-0.08, let's use 0.075
T = K*F*d
F = T/(K*d) = 100ft-lb*(12in/lb)/(0.075*1.067in) ~ 15,000lb of axial force generated.
This is ample to stabilize the joint in a 308 sized case head that generates <10,000lb of bolt thrust. </div></div>
You are the biggest nerd I know!!!
</div></div>
There's a method to the madness...
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
</div></div>
Hardened recoil lugs? </div></div>
Always </div></div>
Where are you getting hardened lugs?
Every lug I've had in shop from every brand Ive tried has not been hardened.
We have to bore open lugs in our mill from 1.062ish to 1.075". My poor little boring bar wouldn't cut a hardened lug.
We do not use any anti seize grease, and put them on tight enough that they feel <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">right</span></span>. Probably 50-65 foot pounds, but thats a guess.
</div></div>
Shoot me a PM.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
</div></div>
Hardened recoil lugs? </div></div>
Always </div></div>
Where are you getting hardened lugs?
Every lug I've had in shop from every brand Ive tried has not been hardened.
We have to bore open lugs in our mill from 1.062ish to 1.075". My poor little boring bar wouldn't cut a hardened lug.
We do not use any anti seize grease, and put them on tight enough that they feel <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">right</span></span>. Probably 50-65 foot pounds, but thats a guess.
</div></div>
Shoot me a PM.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
What about for an AIAW? I know the spec is 100 lbft, how about the lube?
What about for an AIAW? I know the spec is 100 lbft, how about the lube?
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
First a comment and then a legitimate question for the other smiths/mechanical techs.
Comment: I have found that typical barrel steel (416R Stainless type) is pretty darned soft. Super easy to scratch, mark, ding and dent barrel steel. While I have my custom lugs hardened, I really feel that it is not needed since most tool steel and factory type lugs are harder than the barrels. During repeated installs and torques up to 80 lbs. I thought we were seeing some headspace shrinkage due to compression of the barrel shoulder and not the recoil lug.
Another note: I saw this more on LV contour barrels (breech shank dia 1.200") than standard breech diameters of 1.250". Typical machined and threaded shanks on LV contours produce a shoulder of about 0.070" while the larger standard breech diameter produces a shoulder of about 0.095". The smaller shoulder torqued to the same load has much more compression P.S.I. than the larger shoulder wouldn't it? My opinion would be that the smaller shoulder be more prone to distortion and permanent dimensional change.
I might be missing something big on the above. Please enlighten me if so.
Question: Does application of grease or friction reducing coating to a mated thread alter or skew the perceived accuracy of a torque wrench? In other words, if I am trying to apply 50 in/lb. to a fastener that has one of the above coatings, is the fastener or part under more actual stress than if a non coated thread was used to yield the same "click" of the wrench?
After some issues with some rings, I was told that this was true by a prominant manufacturer.
Thanks,
Terry
.
First a comment and then a legitimate question for the other smiths/mechanical techs.
Comment: I have found that typical barrel steel (416R Stainless type) is pretty darned soft. Super easy to scratch, mark, ding and dent barrel steel. While I have my custom lugs hardened, I really feel that it is not needed since most tool steel and factory type lugs are harder than the barrels. During repeated installs and torques up to 80 lbs. I thought we were seeing some headspace shrinkage due to compression of the barrel shoulder and not the recoil lug.
Another note: I saw this more on LV contour barrels (breech shank dia 1.200") than standard breech diameters of 1.250". Typical machined and threaded shanks on LV contours produce a shoulder of about 0.070" while the larger standard breech diameter produces a shoulder of about 0.095". The smaller shoulder torqued to the same load has much more compression P.S.I. than the larger shoulder wouldn't it? My opinion would be that the smaller shoulder be more prone to distortion and permanent dimensional change.
I might be missing something big on the above. Please enlighten me if so.
Question: Does application of grease or friction reducing coating to a mated thread alter or skew the perceived accuracy of a torque wrench? In other words, if I am trying to apply 50 in/lb. to a fastener that has one of the above coatings, is the fastener or part under more actual stress than if a non coated thread was used to yield the same "click" of the wrench?
After some issues with some rings, I was told that this was true by a prominant manufacturer.
Thanks,
Terry
.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question: Does application of grease or friction reducing coating to a mated thread alter or skew the perceived accuracy of a torque wrench? In other words, if I am trying to apply 50 in/lb. to a fastener that has one of the above coatings, is the fastener or part under more actual stress than if a non coated thread was used to yield the same "click" of the wrench?
After some issues with some rings, I was told that this was true by a prominant manufacturer.
Thanks,
Terry
. </div></div>
Terry, the application of a lubracant absolutely does change the ammount of stretch and tension applied to the parting face of the components. Weather it be bolts, studs or barrles when you tighten a straight threaded component past the point of full contact and start applying rotational torque you start stretching the shank to some degree. This stretch is what holds the 2 components tight under viabration and thermal expansion. The rotational torque applied is just another way of measuring the ammount of stretch. Larger diameter fasteners need more rotational torque applied to acheive the proper ammount of stretch due to the fact they are more rigded, also a harder fastener will require more torque than a softer for the same size. So when you measure the torque that is just measuring the friction or resistance of rotation which is caused by a few things one being the stretch (which is proportinal to the thread pitch) and the other being the 2 materials sliding against each other. All of this is calculated into the formula for the "proper torque" of a specific fastener and if any lubricant is used in this formula it should be specified. If you change types of lubricant you change the ammount of resistance created when turning the fastner the proper ammount needed to acheive the proper stretch. So a slicker lube will get more stretch for the same ammount of torque applied. I hope this makes sence.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question: Does application of grease or friction reducing coating to a mated thread alter or skew the perceived accuracy of a torque wrench? In other words, if I am trying to apply 50 in/lb. to a fastener that has one of the above coatings, is the fastener or part under more actual stress than if a non coated thread was used to yield the same "click" of the wrench?
After some issues with some rings, I was told that this was true by a prominant manufacturer.
Thanks,
Terry
. </div></div>
Terry, the application of a lubracant absolutely does change the ammount of stretch and tension applied to the parting face of the components. Weather it be bolts, studs or barrles when you tighten a straight threaded component past the point of full contact and start applying rotational torque you start stretching the shank to some degree. This stretch is what holds the 2 components tight under viabration and thermal expansion. The rotational torque applied is just another way of measuring the ammount of stretch. Larger diameter fasteners need more rotational torque applied to acheive the proper ammount of stretch due to the fact they are more rigded, also a harder fastener will require more torque than a softer for the same size. So when you measure the torque that is just measuring the friction or resistance of rotation which is caused by a few things one being the stretch (which is proportinal to the thread pitch) and the other being the 2 materials sliding against each other. All of this is calculated into the formula for the "proper torque" of a specific fastener and if any lubricant is used in this formula it should be specified. If you change types of lubricant you change the ammount of resistance created when turning the fastner the proper ammount needed to acheive the proper stretch. So a slicker lube will get more stretch for the same ammount of torque applied. I hope this makes sence.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question: Does application of grease or friction reducing coating to a mated thread alter or skew the perceived accuracy of a torque wrench? In other words, if I am trying to apply 50 in/lb. to a fastener that has one of the above coatings, is the fastener or part under more actual stress than if a non coated thread was used to yield the same "click" of the wrench?
After some issues with some rings, I was told that this was true by a prominant manufacturer.
Thanks,
Terry
. </div></div>
Terry, the application of a lubracant absolutely does change the ammount of stretch and tension applied to the parting face of the components. Weather it be bolts, studs or barrles when you tighten a straight threaded component past the point of full contact and start applying rotational torque you start stretching the shank to some degree. This stretch is what holds the 2 components tight under viabration and thermal expansion. The rotational torque applied is just another way of measuring the ammount of stretch. Larger diameter fasteners need more rotational torque applied to acheive the proper ammount of stretch due to the fact they are more rigded, also a harder fastener will require more torque than a softer for the same size. So when you measure the torque that is just measuring the friction or resistance of rotation which is caused by a few things one being the stretch (which is proportinal to the thread pitch) and the other being the 2 materials sliding against each other. All of this is calculated into the formula for the "proper torque" of a specific fastener and if any lubricant is used in this formula it should be specified. If you change types of lubricant you change the ammount of resistance created when turning the fastner the proper ammount needed to acheive the proper stretch. So a slicker lube will get more stretch for the same ammount of torque applied. I hope this makes sence. </div></div>
Perfect answer!
Torque = measure of rotational friction, and a rough indication of clamp load
Fastener stretch = direct measure of clampload
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Question: Does application of grease or friction reducing coating to a mated thread alter or skew the perceived accuracy of a torque wrench? In other words, if I am trying to apply 50 in/lb. to a fastener that has one of the above coatings, is the fastener or part under more actual stress than if a non coated thread was used to yield the same "click" of the wrench?
After some issues with some rings, I was told that this was true by a prominant manufacturer.
Thanks,
Terry
. </div></div>
Terry, the application of a lubracant absolutely does change the ammount of stretch and tension applied to the parting face of the components. Weather it be bolts, studs or barrles when you tighten a straight threaded component past the point of full contact and start applying rotational torque you start stretching the shank to some degree. This stretch is what holds the 2 components tight under viabration and thermal expansion. The rotational torque applied is just another way of measuring the ammount of stretch. Larger diameter fasteners need more rotational torque applied to acheive the proper ammount of stretch due to the fact they are more rigded, also a harder fastener will require more torque than a softer for the same size. So when you measure the torque that is just measuring the friction or resistance of rotation which is caused by a few things one being the stretch (which is proportinal to the thread pitch) and the other being the 2 materials sliding against each other. All of this is calculated into the formula for the "proper torque" of a specific fastener and if any lubricant is used in this formula it should be specified. If you change types of lubricant you change the ammount of resistance created when turning the fastner the proper ammount needed to acheive the proper stretch. So a slicker lube will get more stretch for the same ammount of torque applied. I hope this makes sence. </div></div>
Perfect answer!
Torque = measure of rotational friction, and a rough indication of clamp load
Fastener stretch = direct measure of clampload
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
You boys make my head feel funny... math and such. Ew.
Who was the guy that "wrote the book" on trying obscene torque and crazy stuff like teflon tape in the barrel threads? I asked a question a while back and someone refered me to it. He was torquing barrels down to the point he'd split recoil lugs. His theory was that the tighter the joint, the less play and positional reset that would change POI from shot to shot. Ideally speaking the most accurate rifle would be one where the receiver and barrel were one piece, like the old Stevens rimfires and such (cited for style of manufacture, not necesarily results). But barring that making the tightest tolerance joint between the barrel and receiver is the next best thing. Would a slick lube in the threaded joint offer any possible effect to accuracy? We've always gone the loctite and 100ftlb route. But another smith we'd met used acraglass and whatever torque and literally said "What I put together let no man seperate" every time he barreled an action. But I've also seen folks with switch barrels run 50ftlb and just a drop of loctite and they are hammers.
There is too much stuff to factor, and too many people getting results from too many methods. I'll stick with my method... let the husband barrel the actions.
Really Bohem? Math? Yuck!
You boys make my head feel funny... math and such. Ew.
Who was the guy that "wrote the book" on trying obscene torque and crazy stuff like teflon tape in the barrel threads? I asked a question a while back and someone refered me to it. He was torquing barrels down to the point he'd split recoil lugs. His theory was that the tighter the joint, the less play and positional reset that would change POI from shot to shot. Ideally speaking the most accurate rifle would be one where the receiver and barrel were one piece, like the old Stevens rimfires and such (cited for style of manufacture, not necesarily results). But barring that making the tightest tolerance joint between the barrel and receiver is the next best thing. Would a slick lube in the threaded joint offer any possible effect to accuracy? We've always gone the loctite and 100ftlb route. But another smith we'd met used acraglass and whatever torque and literally said "What I put together let no man seperate" every time he barreled an action. But I've also seen folks with switch barrels run 50ftlb and just a drop of loctite and they are hammers.
There is too much stuff to factor, and too many people getting results from too many methods. I'll stick with my method... let the husband barrel the actions.
Really Bohem? Math? Yuck!
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Robert</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">Harold</span> Vaughn wrote the book you're looking for.
What I do for a living, that's not math, that's arithmetic.
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Robert</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">Harold</span> Vaughn wrote the book you're looking for.
What I do for a living, that's not math, that's arithmetic.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
Thanks.
That is what I believe and how I proceed accordingly.
I just wanted to hear it from others. I had a prominant scope ring maker ask me to not CeraKote the ring parts.
I was having some cross bolt plates snap before reaching torque spec. Maker said the reduced friction was skewing the torque value (which I understood already) and overloading the plate. Seemed to me the plate should have been beefy enough to handle most common coating and lubricating practices.
Best,
Terry
Thanks.
That is what I believe and how I proceed accordingly.
I just wanted to hear it from others. I had a prominant scope ring maker ask me to not CeraKote the ring parts.
I was having some cross bolt plates snap before reaching torque spec. Maker said the reduced friction was skewing the torque value (which I understood already) and overloading the plate. Seemed to me the plate should have been beefy enough to handle most common coating and lubricating practices.
Best,
Terry
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I do for a living, that's not math, that's arithmetic.</div></div>
No kidding! Lol
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I do for a living, that's not math, that's arithmetic.</div></div>
No kidding! Lol
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Robert Vaughn wrote the book you're looking for.</div></div>
I read this Harold Vaughn book:
http://www.amazon.com/Rifle-Accuracy-Facts-Harold-Vaughn/dp/1931220085
Is there another good one I am missing?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Robert Vaughn wrote the book you're looking for.</div></div>
I read this Harold Vaughn book:
http://www.amazon.com/Rifle-Accuracy-Facts-Harold-Vaughn/dp/1931220085
Is there another good one I am missing?
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
ETA: I chose that based upon certain stability conditions for certain calibers and calculated based upon bolt thrust loads for a given setup.
A lubricated steel/steel joint has a K~=0.07-0.08, let's use 0.075
T = K*F*d
F = T/(K*d) = 100ft-lb*(12in/lb)/(0.075*1.067in) ~ 15,000lb of axial force generated.
This is ample to stabilize the joint in a 308 sized case head that generates <10,000lb of bolt thrust. </div></div>
You are the biggest nerd I know!!!
</div></div>
Quoted for truth!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
ETA: I chose that based upon certain stability conditions for certain calibers and calculated based upon bolt thrust loads for a given setup.
A lubricated steel/steel joint has a K~=0.07-0.08, let's use 0.075
T = K*F*d
F = T/(K*d) = 100ft-lb*(12in/lb)/(0.075*1.067in) ~ 15,000lb of axial force generated.
This is ample to stabilize the joint in a 308 sized case head that generates <10,000lb of bolt thrust. </div></div>
You are the biggest nerd I know!!!
</div></div>
Quoted for truth!
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Robert Vaughn wrote the book you're looking for.</div></div>
I read this Harold Vaughn book:
http://www.amazon.com/Rifle-Accuracy-Facts-Harold-Vaughn/dp/1931220085
Is there another good one I am missing? </div></div>
That's the one. I got his first name wrong. I'm going to fix it now, thanks for the heads up.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Robert Vaughn wrote the book you're looking for.</div></div>
I read this Harold Vaughn book:
http://www.amazon.com/Rifle-Accuracy-Facts-Harold-Vaughn/dp/1931220085
Is there another good one I am missing? </div></div>
That's the one. I got his first name wrong. I'm going to fix it now, thanks for the heads up.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
ETA: I chose that based upon certain stability conditions for certain calibers and calculated based upon bolt thrust loads for a given setup.
A lubricated steel/steel joint has a K~=0.07-0.08, let's use 0.075
T = K*F*d
F = T/(K*d) = 100ft-lb*(12in/lb)/(0.075*1.067in) ~ 15,000lb of axial force generated.
This is ample to stabilize the joint in a 308 sized case head that generates <10,000lb of bolt thrust. </div></div>
You are the biggest nerd I know!!!
</div></div>
Nothing to do with lube, just think this was some funny stuff Mark!!! Thanks for making my day better with a laugh. As for lube, well..... Many of them work just fine IMO. They all reduce drag, friction, well you you know, things just slide a little better when wet. Torque...... well it's been proven that anything from a hard snap to 100 ft lbs of torque work just fine also. Thanks again Mark and Bohem
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Under those conditions for a non-switch barrel setup I run about 100ft-lbs.
ETA: I chose that based upon certain stability conditions for certain calibers and calculated based upon bolt thrust loads for a given setup.
A lubricated steel/steel joint has a K~=0.07-0.08, let's use 0.075
T = K*F*d
F = T/(K*d) = 100ft-lb*(12in/lb)/(0.075*1.067in) ~ 15,000lb of axial force generated.
This is ample to stabilize the joint in a 308 sized case head that generates <10,000lb of bolt thrust. </div></div>
You are the biggest nerd I know!!!
</div></div>
Nothing to do with lube, just think this was some funny stuff Mark!!! Thanks for making my day better with a laugh. As for lube, well..... Many of them work just fine IMO. They all reduce drag, friction, well you you know, things just slide a little better when wet. Torque...... well it's been proven that anything from a hard snap to 100 ft lbs of torque work just fine also. Thanks again Mark and Bohem
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: STR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Torque...... well it's been proven that anything from a hard snap to 100 ft lbs of torque work just fine also.</div></div>
A guy I sometimes shoot with had a gun built by a local machinist that did not have a barrel vise.
The gun shot great when the barrel was tight, but he had to reach up and snap the barrel back tight before each stage or the barrel would loosen up enough that accuracy would degrade.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: STR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Torque...... well it's been proven that anything from a hard snap to 100 ft lbs of torque work just fine also.</div></div>
A guy I sometimes shoot with had a gun built by a local machinist that did not have a barrel vise.
The gun shot great when the barrel was tight, but he had to reach up and snap the barrel back tight before each stage or the barrel would loosen up enough that accuracy would degrade.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: STR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Torque...... well it's been proven that anything from a hard snap to 100 ft lbs of torque work just fine also.</div></div>
A guy I sometimes shoot with had a gun built by a local machinist that did not have a barrel vise.
The gun shot great when the barrel was tight, but he had to reach up and snap the barrel back tight before each stage or the barrel would loosen up enough that accuracy would degrade. </div></div>
Holy Cow! Thats crazy.
We had a customer come it with a rifle that the weight of the action wrench, without being touched, broke the barrel loose. It all reminds me of this video.
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dXn3AV9vBro"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dXn3AV9vBro" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: STR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Torque...... well it's been proven that anything from a hard snap to 100 ft lbs of torque work just fine also.</div></div>
A guy I sometimes shoot with had a gun built by a local machinist that did not have a barrel vise.
The gun shot great when the barrel was tight, but he had to reach up and snap the barrel back tight before each stage or the barrel would loosen up enough that accuracy would degrade. </div></div>
Holy Cow! Thats crazy.
We had a customer come it with a rifle that the weight of the action wrench, without being touched, broke the barrel loose. It all reminds me of this video.
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dXn3AV9vBro"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dXn3AV9vBro" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: STR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Torque...... well it's been proven that anything from a hard snap to 100 ft lbs of torque work just fine also.</div></div>
A guy I sometimes shoot with had a gun built by a local machinist that did not have a barrel vise.
The gun shot great when the barrel was tight, but he had to reach up and snap the barrel back tight before each stage or the barrel would loosen up enough that accuracy would degrade. </div></div>
Please understand that I always torque my actions to 100 Ft Lbs. with a calibrated snap on wrench. I am refering to some bench rest barrel change up rigs that I have seen just get a snap for torque. Just wanted to be clear on that. I believe what you are saying about a barrel coming loose after firing if it was no torqued, but I have seen guys change a barrel with nothing more than hand pressure, and it hold for a match. Again, not something I do or would even consider.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: STR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Torque...... well it's been proven that anything from a hard snap to 100 ft lbs of torque work just fine also.</div></div>
A guy I sometimes shoot with had a gun built by a local machinist that did not have a barrel vise.
The gun shot great when the barrel was tight, but he had to reach up and snap the barrel back tight before each stage or the barrel would loosen up enough that accuracy would degrade. </div></div>
Please understand that I always torque my actions to 100 Ft Lbs. with a calibrated snap on wrench. I am refering to some bench rest barrel change up rigs that I have seen just get a snap for torque. Just wanted to be clear on that. I believe what you are saying about a barrel coming loose after firing if it was no torqued, but I have seen guys change a barrel with nothing more than hand pressure, and it hold for a match. Again, not something I do or would even consider.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
No thread lock of any kind, class 3 fit with 3-6 drops of Synthetic oil on the barrel threads, 1-2 drops on the receiver face / barrel shoulder to help reduce skin friction at lock up / torque. Snap-On click type torque wrench and Surgeon Receiver wrench. I torque to 100 foot pounds.
I've used SS recoil lugs and hardened CM lugs. I use 1.200", 1.250" and 1.300" diameter barrels, all stainless steel. I've never had a HS issue from the torque I use or a recoil lug compress.
No thread lock of any kind, class 3 fit with 3-6 drops of Synthetic oil on the barrel threads, 1-2 drops on the receiver face / barrel shoulder to help reduce skin friction at lock up / torque. Snap-On click type torque wrench and Surgeon Receiver wrench. I torque to 100 foot pounds.
I've used SS recoil lugs and hardened CM lugs. I use 1.200", 1.250" and 1.300" diameter barrels, all stainless steel. I've never had a HS issue from the torque I use or a recoil lug compress.
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
Tri Flow synthetic Grease and 125lbs on the wrench.
"Werkz gooder"
Tri Flow synthetic Grease and 125lbs on the wrench.
"Werkz gooder"
Re: Barrel assmbly paste + torque What do you use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: whiskeyjacked</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you guys say about anti-sieze in this application? Good stuff, but not on guns?
</div></div>
Reread the thread and you'll see several that suggested putting nickel anti-seize on the joint, including myself.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: whiskeyjacked</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you guys say about anti-sieze in this application? Good stuff, but not on guns?
</div></div>
Reread the thread and you'll see several that suggested putting nickel anti-seize on the joint, including myself.
